Amazing Facts Ministry Asks the Question: The  Church—Is it Babylon? Are There Two Churches Within the Church?

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Dear Reader,

What follows is an appeal made by Amazing Facts Ministry regarding the state of the church and what they regard as a correct response to any apostasy in the church no matter how serious it should get. Their bottom line conclusion is that the church will FOREVER be God's instrument, no matter what it does. That conclusion flies in the face of the following E.G. White statement, and remember that if she in any way contradicts this statement, she would then be a self-contradictory false prophet:

"The Lord Jesus will always have a chosen people to serve Him. When the Jewish people rejected Chist, the Prince of life. He took from them the kingdom of God and gave it unto the Gentiles. God will continue to work on this principle with every branch of His work. When a church proves unfaithful to the work of the Lord, whatever their position may be, however high and sacred their calling, the Lord can no longer work with them. Others are then chosen to bear important responsibilities. But, if these in turn do not purify their lives from every wrong action, if they do not establish pure and holy principles in all their borders, then the Lord will grievously afflict and humble them and, unless they repent, will remove them from their place and make them a reproach. God is not 'worshipped with men's hands, as tough he needed any thing' (Acts 17:25). E. G. White, The Upward Look, 131.

My responses are in purple print, with highlights in this color, with my inserted links in this color, and they appear below statements and conclusions by Amazing Facts Ministry which are in black print. Here is the Amazing Facts article:

Contents

Visible and Invisible

 

Two Visible Churches

 

Adventism and Babylon

The Church: Is it Babylon?

No one can deny the painful divisions which rack the Seventh-day Adventist church today, but few understand that much of it springs from issues rooted in the 1970s and 1980s. It was during those two decades that the church was assailed with controversy over the sanctuary, the nature of man and sin, the role of Ellen G. White, the humanity of Christ, and the possibility of character perfection before the coming of Christ.

Ron responds:

The apostasy goes much further back to the early 1930's when the church adopted the world's Accreditation Standards for curicullum in its educational institutions. Also, Leroy Froom began to introduce the church the Trinity view of the Godhead in the 1930's and it was finally voted into the church’s Fundamental Beliefs in 1980. Now the church is adopting the blasphemous Eucharist doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.

Is is truly an AMAZING FACT, that Amazing Facts ministries omits the fact that much of the apostasy is rooted in the 1950’s vial the Evangelical Conferences held with Dr. Walter Martin and Donald Grey Barnhouse. Many SDA’s regard this as THE BEGINNING OF THE END of the true SDA church, and the formation of a new movement, new organization, in fulfillment of 1SM 204-205, and indeed this is true. See the following links:

 

Conferences: DH101-118 THE BEGINNING OF THE END Part 1-18 Mar 83. History and implications of the Martin-Barnhouse conferences with our leaders. (TB:DOCTRINAL HISTORY/2) (Not PDF)

 

____Evangelical Conferences: DH301-308 SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS BELIEVE Part 1-8 June 88. An analysis of doctrinal problems in our new doctrinal book. (TB:DOCTRINE/1) (Not PDF)

 

____Martin-Johnson Debate: WM111-112 THE MARTIN-JOHNSON DEBATE Part 1-2 June 85. (TB:DOCTRINAL HISTORY/2) (Not PDF)

 

____Evangelical Conferences: WM249 WALTER MARTIN AND THE SDA CHURCH Jan 90. Brief history of Martins momentous influence on our doctrinal beliefs; written just after his June 1989 death. (TB:DOCTRINAL HISTORY/2)(Not in PDF)

 

____Evangelical Conferences: WM250-251 WALTER MARTIN AND THE SCHOLARS: HISTORIC ADVENTISM AND HEBREWS NINE Part 1-2 Feb 90. Brief defense of historic Adventism in Hebrews 9. (TB:DOCTRINAL HISTORY/2) (Not PDF)

 

____Evangelical Conferences: WM720 CATHOLIC COERCION OF ADVENTIST BOOKS Oct 96

 

____Evangelical Conferences: WM727-728 THE ATONEMENT: FINISHED OR UNFINISHED? Part 1-2 Dec 96

 

____Evangelical Conferences: WM852-854 AN EVANGELICAL HISTORY OF THE ADVENTIST THEOLOGICAL SPLIT Part -1-3 Sept 98 A non-Adv writes about us Index: Christian

 

Research Institute / Evangelical Conferences

 

____Evangelical Conferences: AN EVANGELICAL HISTORY OF THE ADVENTIST THEOLOGICAL SPLIT

 

____Evangelical Conferences: WM1002 SECOND EVANGELICAL CONFERENCES Jan 01http://omega77.tripod.com/andreasenletters.htm

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·       It is truly another AMAZING FACT that Amazing Facts ministry omits the controversy over M. L. Andreasen’s Letters to the Churches, which defined the antichrist doctrines adopted by the church as a result of the Evangelical Conferences of the mid 1950’s – 1960.

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·       It is another AMAZING FACT that Amazing Facts ministry is not able to understand (Isaiah 56:10-12) that the Trinity Doctrine sweeps away the entire Christian economy, by denying the Heavenly Sanctuary/Atonement sacrifice which met the prescribed limits of a sacrifice BEFORE THE CROSS, to wit: "The darkness rolled away from the Saviour and from the Cross. Christ bowed His head and died. In His Incarnation He had reached the prescribed limit as a sacrifice, but not as a redeemer." E.G. White Manuscript Releases Volume Twelve, p. 409.

The confrontations over those basic theological issues laid a foundation for the more vocal battle of the 1990s concerning the nature of the church. Loud and long has been the dialogue over what constitutes the church. The strongest disagreements have focused on whether the organized Seventh-day Adventist church will go through in triumph. Or has the Adventist church become a part of Babylon? If so, should we separate from it and call others to join us?

Ron responds:

Ellen White herself said there was a great difference between the church militant and the church triumphant and that those who thought the church militant was the church triumphnant would be making a great mistake. The Upward Look, 152.

 

The Alpha and Omega of Apostasy was prophesied by Ellen White. She said that the Omega would wax stronger until Christ comes, to wit:

 

Wax stronger: "One thing it is certain is soon to be realized, the great apostasy, which is developing and increasing and waxing stronger, and will continue to do so until the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout. We are to hold fast the first principles of our denominated faith, and go forward from strength to increased faith. Ever we are to keep the faith that has been substantiated by the Holy Spirit of God from the earlier events of our experience until the present time. We need now larger breadth, and deeper, more earnest, unwavering faith in the leadings of the Holy Spirit. If we needed the manifest proof of the Holy Spirit's power to confirm truth in the beginning, after the passing of the time, we need to-day all the evidence in the confirmation of the truth, when souls are departing from the faith and giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. There must not be any languishing of soul now." (E.G. White, Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 57).

 

"The enemy will set everything in operation to uproot the confidence of the believers in the pillars of our faith in the messages of the past, which have placed us upon the elevated platform of eternal truth, and which have established and given character to the work. The Lord God of Israel has led out His people, unfolding to them truth of heavenly origin." "The truth for this time is precious, but those whose hearts have not been broken by falling on the Rock Christ Jesus, will not see and understand what is truth. They will accept that which pleases their ideas, and will begin to manufacture another foundation than that which is laid. They will flatter their own vanity and esteem, thinking that they are capable of removing the pillars of our faith, and replacing them with pillars they have devised. This will continue to be as long as time shall last." Notebook, Leaflets, pp. 61-62.

 

What is the apostasy that will wax stronger until Jesus comes? What has does it involve?:

"In a representation which passed before me, I saw a certain work being done by medical missionary workers. Our ministering brethren were looking on, watching what was being done, but they did not seem to understand. The foundation of our faith, which was established by so much prayer, such earnest searching of the Scriptures, was being taken down, pillar by pillar. Our faith was to have nothing to rest upon--the sanctuary was gone, the atonement was gone. Do you wonder that I have something to say, when I see the pillars of our faith beginning to be moved? Seductive theories are being taught in such a way that we shall not recognize them unless we have clear spiritual discernment."--Manuscript 46, May 18, 1904. Now compare the above with her description of the Omega of Apostasy in Selected Messages, Book 1, 204-5.

·       According to Isaiah 56:10-12, Doug Bachelor cannot understand or recognize the seductive theories that are being taught in such a way that we shall not recognize them unless we have clear spiritual discernment.

·       To those with spiritual discernment, it is clear that the visible church militant will not go through.

·       To those with spiritual discernment, it is clear that a remnant will be saved out of the church militant. See Ezekiel 5:1-3 and Isaiah 37:31, 32 (KJV).

·       Ellen White says that Ezekiel 9 will be literally fulfilled. Ezekiel 9 is involved with "Jerusalem," the professing SDA church militant.

·       Ellen White says that the last fulfillment of Ezekiel 9, the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, was a PREFIGURE, The Great Controversy, p. 25.

·       In that PREFIGURE, a remnant left the apostate Jewish church militant.

·       Ellen White said in over 100 cases that the SDA church militant was following the course of the Jews EXACTLY.

·       If the visible SDA church militant went through, that would make Ellen White a false prophet when she stated that there would be another literal fulfillment of Ezekiel 9. It would make Ezekiel a false prophet, because he said in Ezekiel 5:9, that God would do the worse thing He had ever done and ever would do to the church. Ezekiel 5 is another take on Ezekiel 9. The worse thing God ever does is done at the end-time per Matthew 24:21. So it is contradictory of Ellen White and God in Scripture, to conclude that the visible SDA church militant goes through.  

Doug says: “The strongest disagreements have focused on whether the organized Seventh-day Adventist church will go through in triumph.”

Tell me if the following statement by Ellen White answers that “disagreement” without question:           

"Jesus sends HIS PEOPLE a message of warning to prepare them for his coming. To the prophet John was made known the closing work in the great plan of man's redemption. He beheld an angel flying 'in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his Judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters [Rev. 14:6, 7.].

The angel represented in prophecy as delivering this message,  symbolizes a class of faithful men, who, obedient to the promptings of God's Spirit and the teachings of his word, proclaim this warning to the inhabitants of earth. This message was not to be committed to the religious leaders of the people. They had failed to preserve their connection with God, and had REFUSED THE LIGHT FROM HEAVEN therefore they WERE NOT of the number described by the apostle Paul: 'But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day we are not of the night nor of darkness' [1 Thess. 5:4, 5]. 

The watchmen upon the walls of Zion should be the first to catch the tidings of the Saviour's advent, the first to lift their voices to proclaim him near, the first to warn the people to prepare for his coming. But they were at ease, dreaming of peace and safety, while the people were asleep in their sins. Jesus saw HIS CHURCH, like the barren fig-tree, covered with pretentious leaves, yet destitute of precious fruit. There was a boastful observance of the forms of religion, while the spirit of true humility, penitence and faith--which alone could render the service acceptable to God--was lacking. Instead of the graces of the Spirit, there were manifested pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, oppression. A BACKSLIDING CHURCH closed their eyes to the signs of the times. God did nor forsake them, or suffer his faithfulness to fail but they departed from him, and SEPARATED THEMSELVES from his love. As they REFUSED TO COMPLY WITH THE CONDITIONS, his promises were NOT FULFILLED to them."  E.G. White, The Spirit of Prophecy,  vol. 4, pp. 199-200 [The 1884 edition of The Great Controversy, 199, 200].

 

Note from the above statement:

 

·    Ellen White is addressing HIS PEOPLE.

·    Ellen White is addressing those to whom was committed the EVERLASTING GOSPEL of Revelation 14.

·    Ellen White is defining the angel represented in prophecy AS DELIVERING THIS MESSAGE--NOT MEN OF BABYLON WHO FAILED TO ACCEPT THAT MESSAGE AS THE 1911 EDITION IMPLIES!

·    Ellen White is implying that the third angel's message is delivered NOT BY THE LEADERS OF THE SDA CHURCH, but by a class of faithful men because the leaders had failed to preserve their connection with God and had refused light from heaven!

·    Ellen White is addressing "watchmen upon the walls of Zion," NOT FALLEN BABYLON!

·    And twice Ellen White mentions HIS CHURCH, NOT FALLEN BABYLON.

·          

·         Ellen White is addressing a BACKSLIDING CHURCH whose leaders and laity alike who failed and rejected light from heaven and who refused to comply with the conditions so that God's promises are not fulfilled to them.

Much of the debate revolves around the terms "visible" and "invisible." One group contends that the visible church consists only of faithful, obedient believers and could never refer to an organization which is not wholly following God. On this basis, they feel compelled to urge people not to be associated with the organized church any longer. They also apply some of the identifying marks of Babylon to the present Adventist church structure.

Ron's response: Wheat and tares can grow together until the harvest which is the end of probationary time. But wheat and corrupt open sinning apostates cannot grow together for then it becomes impossible for the wheat to ripen and mature.

"Thorns sprung up.--The thorns made it impossible for the wheat to mature (see Luke 8:14). In the same way secular interests prevent the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22, 23) from reaching maturity. Religion is relegated to the subordinate position of being only one interest among many. For lack of cultivation it withers and eventually dies. That which the thorny-ground hearers lack is a moral transformation [E.G. White, Christ's Object Lessons,  p. 50]  To them, justification is the sum and substance of religion, and they fail to realize that the Christian life consists essentially in the process known as sanctification--the process by which evil traits and tendencies are replaced by the perfect life-pattern of Jesus Christ." Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 5, 405.

This is precisely what New Movement Seventh-day Adventists (Selected Messages, vol. 1, 204-205), teaches. 

 

“...The Lord will not write as wise those who cannot distinguish between a tree that bears thorn-berries and a tree that bears olives.” {EGW, RH, September 7, 1897 par. 15}

 

Ellen White defines tares as insincere believers whose motives we would have to judge in order to uproot them. Christ’s Object Lessons, pp. 70-72. This is not the case with thorns—OPEN SINNING CORRUPT APOSTATES. They are to be removed from the church or they will choke out the wheat and make it impossible to mature.

"It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to unite with those who are corrupt, and still remain/[become] pure. (II Corinthians 6:14-15 quoted). God and Christ and the heavenly host would have men know that if he unites with the corrupt he will become corrupt." E. G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 4, p. 137.  

"Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church..."  Christ's Object Lessons, 71.

 

So what do we do when the ring-leaders of the open sin apostasy is the leaders who will not remove themselves and will permit nothing to stand in their way 1SM 204-205? Then we must separated or we are responsible for their sins.

 

“The names of those who sin and refuse to repent should not be retained on the church books, lest the saints be held accountable for their evil deeds. Those who pursue a course of transgression should be visited and labored with, and if they then refuse to repent, they should be separated from church fellowship, in accordance with the rules laid down in the Word of God.” {11MR 208.3} 

 

That is why true Christians have separated from apostate churches in every succeeding generation since Christ and His followers did per the following statements:

 

 "Christ was a protestant...The Reformers date back to Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the apostles." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 48, col. 2.

 

 "The Sanhedrin had rejected Christ's message and was bent upon His death therefore Jesus departed from Jerusalem, from the priests, the temple, the religious leaders, the people who had been instructed in the law, and turned to another class to proclaim His message, and to gather out those who should carry the gospel to all nations.

As the light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeeding generation. Again and again the history of Christ's withdrawal from Judea has been repeated. When the Reformers preached the word of God, they had no thought of separating themselves from the established church but the religious leaders would not tolerate the light, and those that bore it were forced to seek another class, who were longing for the truth. In our day few of the professed followers of the Reformers are actuated by their spirit. Few are listening for the voice of God, and ready to accept truth in whatever guise it may be presented. Often those who follow in the steps of the Reformers are forced to turn away from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the word of God. And many times those who are seeking for light are by the same teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience." E.G. White, Desire of Ages, 232.

 

 "The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding that this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.

 

Shiloh was the first civilized settlement of the Jews after they exited their 40 year stint in the Sinai wilderness. The faithful were separating from apostasy that far back!

 

"'They that forsake the law praise the wicked.' Proverbs 28:4. When those who are uniting with the world, yet claiming great purity, plead for union with those who have ever been the opposers of the cause of truth, we should fear and shun them as decidedly as did Nehemiah. Such counsel is prompted by the enemy of all good. It is the speech of timeservers, and should be resisted as resolutely today as then. Whatever influence would tend to unsettle the faith of God' people in His guiding power, should be steadfastly withstood." E.G. White, Prophets and Kings, p. 660.

 

Paul left

 

"And as they persisted in their rejection of the gospel the apostle (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space for three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus." Acts, 19:8, 9.

 

"Fearing that the faith of the believers would be endangered by continued association with these opposers of the truth, Paul separated from them, and gathered the disciples into a distinct body." E.G. White, Acts of the Apostles, p. 286.

 

This labor of purifying the church is a painful work, but one that must not be neglected, if the church would have the commendation of God." E. G. White, Review and Herald Articles,  06-07-1887, paragraph 16.

 

How can SDA leaders purify the church when they will NEVER AGAIN fulfill Isaiah 58:1?

 

"Here we see that the (SDA) church-the Lord's sanctuary-was the first ["For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God. 1 Peter 4:17] to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interest of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. ("He loves us so much, no matter what we do, we'll always be the apple of His eye.") Thus Peace and safety' is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob (the leadership) their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children ALL perish together." Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 211. (The chapter this is taken from begins on page 207, quoting Ezekiel 9).

There are also false reformers. No so-called reformer with discernment contends that the visible church consists only of faithful, obedient believers. There will be a wheat and tare mixture until the harvest. However, open sinners (thorns) are not to be retained, for according to Scripture and Ellen White, they make it impossible for the wheat to mature. Ellen White said that it is impossible to unite with the corrupt and remain pure.

These are the claims which need to be scrutinized under the microscope of God's Word. None can ignore the fact that thousands are being influenced to join "home churches" and to look askance at those who give support to the historic conference organization. In order to ascertain whether there is a distinction between the "visible" and "invisible" church, we shall examine the testimony of Scripture and Spirit of Prophecy as well as the evidence of church history. Then we will be in a position to determine our relationship with the organized Seventh-day Adventist church of today. Visible and Invisible Ellen White used the term "visible church" a number of times, but the term "invisible church" is not commonly used in her writings, if at all. Apparently, many who have studied her statements assume that where there is a "visible," there must also be an "invisible." However, to avoid a controversy based solely on semantics, other words can be used in place of "invisible church." Ellen White herself drew a clear distinction between two groups within the church who would be equal in membership but far apart in their standing before God. (Highlighted emphasis in Doug’s statement above is by Ron)

Ron responds: There are two groups in any valid church militant, the wheat and the tares. Tares are not open sinners. We know that for sure because Ellen White and God say that open sinners should be removed from the church if they won’t reform. Tares are insincere believers. There will be tares even in some home churches until the harvest, BUT NOT OPEN SINNING APOSTATES, because they would make it impossible for the wheat to mature and become pure.

Again Amazing Facts Ministry leaders display their "dumb-dog" mentality. God's says that ALL His watchmen are dumb-dogs that cannot understand, Isaiah 56:10-12. Ellen White reapplies these verses in Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 211, by saying that the dumb-dog watchmen will NEVER AGAIN SHOW THE HOUSE OF JACOB THEIR SINS. The above statement by Amazing Facts does not comprehend the entire issue. It does not even attempt to deal with a crucial THIRD GROUP within the new movement, new organization SDA church. That group is thorns (open apostate sinners) who are to be either reformed or removed from the church. If the church will not remove them, then the member(s) must remove him/herself or it will be impossible for the wheat to mature. This is not my personal judgment. This is exactly what God and Ellen White say.

"We should feel an individual responsibility as members of the visible church and workers in the vineyard of the Lord. The advancement of the church is often retarded by the wrong course of its members. Uniting with the church, although an important and necessary step, does not of itself make one a Christian. If we would secure a title to heaven, our hearts must be in unison with Christ and His people." (Bible Echo and Signs of the Times, Sept. 1, 1888.) Here we find a distinction between being a member of the visible church and being a Christian. If the visible church was composed only of faithful and true believers, then being a church member and being a Christian would be exactly the same thing. But "members of the visible church and workers in the vineyard of the Lord" can take a "wrong course" which retards the advancement of the church. This means that non-Christians (professed, but not true) can be members of the visible church. Although the visible church has both Christians and non-Christians in its membership, uniting with it is still "an important and necessary step." However, a second step is necessary in order to be a Christian and be saved-namely, a heart-unity with Christ. Both steps, becoming a member of the visible church, and having a heart unity with Christ, are necessary for salvation. [Highlighted emphasis by Ron]

Ron responds:

Again, Amazing Facts leaders do not comprehend the whole of the matter. They conclude that the only option of error in the church militant, the visible church, is that some members can take a wrong course which retards the advancement of the church. I have already demonstrated that the visible church militant can take a course that not only retards the advancement of the church, but makes it IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE WHEAT TO MATURE and IMPOSSIBLE for those who unite with its corruption to remain pure. What then?! Can you see that Amazing Facts, an intra-church independent ministry is a false reformer ministry that cannot understand the entire array of important factors? They cannot seem to understand the difference between tares and open sinning apostates. By their reasoning, we should return to the church of our fathers!

"Depending upon men has been the great weakness of the church. Men have dishonored God by failing to appreciate His sufficiency, by coveting the influence of men. Thus Israel became weak. The people wanted to be like the other nations of the world, and they asked for a king." (The Kress Collection, p. 57.) The church is compared to Israel, which made poor decisions because it coveted the approval of other men or nations. Clearly this statement is referring to the organized nation of Israel in a disobedient state. The "church" here cannot refer to true believers only, but to an organized body which is disobedient to God. Yet it is still "the church."

Ron responds:

The above conclusion by Amazing Facts leaders, gives the church a carte' blanche to engage any degree of disobedience and still remain "the church." By that standard, the church could, and has, fulfilled every specification of Selected Messages, Book 1, 204-5, even the one which says "God being removed," and still remain the church. That is true to the extent that the apostate church will not be destroyed until the next literal manifestation of Ezekiel 9, but it is not true as regards the church that is be safe to attend, and wherein the wheat will not prevented from maturing and from becoming pure. If the conclusion of Amazing Facts is correct, then the following statements by Ellen White constitute a contrived lie:

 "The Lord Jesus will always have a chosen people to serve Him. When the Jewish people rejected Chist, the Prince of life. He took from them the kingdom of God and gave it unto the Gentiles. God will continue to work on this principle with every branch of His work. When a church proves unfaithful to the work of the Lord, whatever their position may be, however high and sacred their calling, the Lord can no longer work with them. Others are then chosen to bear important responsibilities. But, if these in turn do not purify their lives from every wrong action, if they do not establish pure and holy principles in all their borders, then the Lord will grievously afflict and humble them and, unless they repent, will remove them from their place and make them a reproach. God is not 'worshipped with men's hands, as tough he needed any thing' (Acts 17:25). E. G. White, The Upward Look, 131.

A once Laodicean church, become cold apostate, like the apostate Jews, thinks that God needs her to finish the work no matter what she does!

"We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree...We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird, and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? E. G. White, Manuscript Releases No. 449, pp. 17, 18.

"If we turn from the testimony of God's word, and accept false doctrines [Calvinism] because our fathers taught them, we fall under the condemnation pronounced upon Babylon; we are drinking of the wine of her abominations." E. G White, The 1884 Great Controversy entitled Spirit of Prophecy, Vol. 4, 347, not to be confused with Testimonies, Vol. 4. The four volume Spirit of Prophecy series, can still be special ordered through any Adventist Book Store.

"It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to unite with those who are corrupt, and still remain pure. (II Corinthians 6:14-15 quoted). God and Christ and the heavenly host would have men know that if he unites with the ocrrupt he will become corrupt." E. G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 4, p. 137. So how did the Jews remain in a corrupt and apostate church and remain pure? They DID NOT REMAIN THERE! Notice:

"The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes; yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding tht this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, Vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.

Did Ellen White advise a similar response in the Alpha of Apostasy? Notice:

"Now those who have had years in this same experience, know not God nor Jesus Christ whom He has sent, and should such go forth as representatives of Jesus Christ? These men will never give the right mold to other minds; they have grown up to the full stature of men and women in Christ. They simply have the name of Christians but are not fitted for the work of God, and never will be until they are born again, and learn the A.B.C. in true religion of Jesus Christ. There is a little hope in one direction: Take the young men and women, and place them where they will come as little in contact with our churches as possible, that the low grad of piety which is current in the day shall not leaven their ideas of what it means to be a Christian." -Letter 16f, May 9, 1892 & Manuscript Releases, Vol. 12, p 332-333.

If she advised that option in the Alpha of Apostasy, what would she do in the Omega, which, according to her, has removed God and only wax worse until Christ comes? Does the above statement by Ellen White advise us to stay with a church no matter what it does, as Amazing Facts leaders conclude? Absolutely not! And what about the example of the faithful when ancient Israel apostatized? They met and worshipped on their own.

"We profess to be the depositories of God's law; we claim to have greater light and to aim at a higher standard than any other people upon the earth. ... As members of the visible church, and workers in the vineyard of the Lord, all professed Christians should do their utmost to preserve peace, harmony, and love in the church. ... Satan is constantly working to prevent this union and harmony, that unbelievers, by witnessing backsliding, dissension, and strife among professed Christians, may become disgusted with religion and be confirmed in their impenitence." (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 5, pp. 619, 620.)

Ron responds:

Should we preserve peace, harmony and love in the event of Omega Apostasy? That question has already been answered, but let Ellen White amplify the answer: "To secure peace and unity they [the reformers in context] were ready to make any concession consistent with fidelity to God; but they felt that even peace would be too dearly purchased at the sacrifice of principle. If unity could be secured only by the compromise of truth and righteousness, then let there be difference, and even war." E.G. White, The Great Controversy, p. 45, 1911 edition.

"We have a testing message to give, and I am instructed to say to our people, 'Unify, unify.' But we are not to unify with those who are departing from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. With our hearts sweet and kind and true, we are to go forth to proclaim the message, giving no heed to those who lead away from the truth." Selected Messages, Book 3, p. 412; Series B, No. 2, p. 47.

Here the visible church is said to contain "professed Christians," which is not the same as true believers or genuine Christians. Those who profess obedience to God are members of the visible church, but some of them are backsliding and fighting with each other.

Ron responds:

“Those who have been regarded as worthy and righteous prove to be ring-leaders in apostasy...” (Ellen G. White, Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 212).

 

Those who have been regarded as worthy and righteous are the leaders who are entrusted to guard the spiritual interests of the sheeple they lead.

What are they fighting over--WARRING OVER? The apostasy! The corrupt, apostate decisions and actions of their leaders. Are we to be silent? Notice: "Different periods in the history of the church have each been marked by the development of some special truth, adapted to the necessities of God's people at that time. Every new truth has made its way against hatred and opposition; those who were blessed with its light were tempted and tried. The Lord gives a special truth for the people in an emergency. Who dare refuse to publish it? He commands His servants to present the last invitation of mercy to the world. They cannot remain silent, except at the peril of their souls. Christ's ambassadors have nothing to do with consequences. They must perform their duty and leave results with God." E.G. White, The Great Controversy, p. 609, The Final Warning.

"The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A NEW ORGANIZATION would be established. Books of a NEW ORDER would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the NEW MOVEMENT. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but GOD BEING REMOVED, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. 

Who has authority to begin such a [NEW] movement? We have our Bibles, we have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? E.G. White, Selected Messages, Vol. 1, 204, 205.  

"And when men standing in the positions of leaders and teachers work under the power of spiritualistic ideas and sophistries, shall we keep silent for fear of injuring their influence, while souls are being beguiled? Satan will use every advantage that he can obtain to cause souls to become beclouded and perplexed in regard to the work of the church, in regard to the word of God, and in regard to the words of warning which He has given through the testimonies of His Spirit, to guard His little flock from the subtleties of the enemy. When men stand out in defiance against the counsel of God, they are warring against God. Is it right for those connected with such ones to treat them as if they were in perfect harmony with them, making no difference between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not? Though they be ministers or medical missionaries, they have dishonored Christ before the forces of the loyal and the disloyal. Open rebuke is necessary, to prevent others from being ensnared." Series B, No. 2:26.

"My message to you is: No longer consent to listen without protest to the perversion of truth. Unmask the pretentious sophistries which, if received, will lead ministers and physicians and medical missionary workers to ignore truth. Every one now is to stand on his guard. God call upon men and women to take their stand under the blood-stained banner of Prince Emmanuel. I have been instructed to warn our people; for many are in danger of receiving theories and sophistries that undermine the foundation pillars or the faith."" Series B, No. 2: 29. End Ron's comment.

When God led Israel out of Egypt, He gave precise directions regarding each person's work. "This is an important lesson to the church. ... The management of that great church in their journeyings in the wilderness symbolizes the management of the church till the close of earth's history." (That I May Know Him, p. 323.)

Ron responds:

How did Jesus manage the work when the Jews committed apostasy?

"Christ was a protestant...The Reformers date back to Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the apostles." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 48, col. 2.  

 

Paul left after three months

 

"And as they persisted in their rejection of the gospel the apostle (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus." Acts, 19:8, 9.

 

"Fearing that the faith of the believers would be endangered by continued association with these opposers of the truth, Paul separated from them, and gathered the disciples into a distinct body." E.G. White, Acts of the Apostles, p. 286.

 

How have all true reformers managed the work in all the succeeding generations since Christ?

 

"As the light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeeding generation. Again and again the history of Christ's withdrawal from Judea has been repeated. When the Reformers preached the word of God, they had no thought of separating themselves from the established church; but the religious leaders would not tolerate the light, and those that bore it were forced to seek another class, who were longing for the truth. In our day few of the professed followers of the Reformers are actuated by their spirit. Few are listening for the Voice of God, and ready to accept truth in whatever guise it may be presented. Often those who follow in the steps of the Reformers are forced to turn away from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the word of God. And many times those who are seeking for light are by the same teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience." Desire of Ages, p. 232.

Any management of the church till the close of earth's history, includes the management of the SDA Church Triumphant, for it is that church which goes through. Ellen White said that God would take the reins into His own hands and lead the church. The above statement is perverted by Amazing Facts and used out of context to support the church militant NO MATTER WHAT COURSE IT TAKES.  

The organized church of Israel is to teach lessons of obedience to the organized remnant church until the close of time. The church of Israel and the church of Adventism are parallel to each other, and we can learn what the church is today by looking back at the church of the Old Testament.

Ron responds: So let’s look back at the church of Israel we are parallel to:

 

Scripture on Home Churches

 

Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Act 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Act 16:40 And they went out of the prison, and entered into [the house of] Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.

Act 18:7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain [man's] house, named Justus, [one] that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

Rom 16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my well beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1Cr 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1Cr 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

1Cr 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

 

Ellen White on Home Churches in the Alpha of Apostasy

 

When the young men and women were kept away from the Alpha of apostasy in the church, what did they do where did they meet for worship?

"There is a little hope in one direction: Take the young men and women, and place them where they will come as little in contact with our churches as possible, that the low grade of piety which is current in this day shall not leaven their ideas of what it means to be a Christian." E.G. White, Manuscript Release #995, p. 5.

 

"Brother and sister Haskell have rented a house in one of the best parts of the city, and have gathered round them a family of helpers, who day by day go out giving Bible readings, selling our papers, and doing medical missionary work. During the hour of worship, the workers relate their experiences. Bible studies are regularly conducted in the home, and THE YOUNG MEN AND YOUNG WOMEN connected with the mission receive a practical, thorough training in holding Bible readings and in selling our publications. The Lord has blessed their labors, a number have embraced the truth, and many others are deeply interested." Review and Herald, September 7, 1905, Evangelism, p. 108.

 

 "Christ was a protestant...The Reformers date back to Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the apostles." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 48, col. 2.

 

What would Ellen White instruct in the Omega of Apostasy, which is far worse to the point of being unpardonable sin?

 

Paul left

 

"And as they persisted in their rejection of the gospel the apostle (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus." Acts, 19:8, 9.

 

"Fearing that the faith of the believers would be endangered by continued association with these opposers of the truth, Paul separated from them, and gathered the disciples into a distinct body." E.G. White, Acts of the Apostles, p. 286.

 

When we are to pay Homage to the Regular Lines of Church Authority

 

Regular lines -  So often the same old difficulties arise and are presented in regard to disturbing the ‘regular lines.’ But God will work in some way to make His people understand that THE REGULAR LINES HAVE BECOME FULL OF IRREGULAR PRACTICES…God alone can make men understand that working on REGULAR LINES has led to IRREGULAR PRACTICES.  God alone can make men’s minds as they should be.  The time has come when we should hear less in favor of the REGULAR LINES.  If we can GET AWAY FROM THE REGULAR LINES into something which, THOUGH IRREGULAR, IS AFTER GOD’S ORDER, it may cut away something of the IRREGULAR WORKING which has led away from Bible principles.”  E.G. White, Manuscript Release, #1450, p. 3, 4, 1901.b

 

“When we see the regular lines are altered and purified and refined, and the God of the heavens mold is upon the regular lines, then it is our business to establish the regular lines.”  E.G. White, Spaulding-Magan Collection, p. 162-168.

 

“The present showing is sufficient to prove to all who have the true missionary spirit that the regular lines [organization] may prove to be a failure.”  E.G. White, Spaulding-Magan Collection, p. 175.  Written to Brother Daniels, June 28, 1901.

 

“The regular lines had need to be broken as a potter’s vessel is broken, and reconstructed.” Ms. 29, 1903. pp. 1, 3 (General Manuscript, The Southern Work, undated).

 

"There are fearful woes for those who preach the truth, but are not sanctified by it, and also for those who consent to receive and maintain the unsanctified to minister to them in word and doctrine." Testimonies, vol. 1, p 261-62

If you pay your sacred tithe and offerings to any church that embraces two or more gospels, then you lend support to "another gospel", a false gospel. Is this "doing what you can to correct the evil"?

Let's look back a bit further at what occurred in the Old Testament: "The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes; yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding tht this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.

"Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither ligt up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble. What hath by beloved [bride] to do in mine house (Temple), seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many (God's enemies), and the holy flesh (God) is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest (celebrates). Jeremiah 11:14, 15.

"Notwithstanding our varying types of character, we are brought into church capacity through the profession of our faith. Christ is the head of the church; and if those whose names are on the church record do not belong to Jesus, the invisible Head, they are like the fruitless branch of the vine, and are taken away. If one is really a fruitful branch, he will make it manifest by bearing fruit, giving evidence of his absolute allegiance to Christ. He will have a spiritual connection with God." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, Feb. 23, 1897.) Note that Christ is the head of the church, which we enter by our profession of faith, and that we can be fruitless branches while on the church record. This church with many unfaithful Christians in it is not a false church, and we are not to leave it to find the true church, because Christ is still its Head. However, we are reminded that being a church member is not enough. We must maintain the spiritual connection with God that is essential to salvation, and we are to take this step within the church of professed believers.

Ron responds:

In the Omega of Apostasy, the church was to remove God. Who is the head then? 1SM 204-205. Since when and where does God give us permission to co-exist with open sinning corrupt apostates?

 "There are two kinds of connections between the branches and the vine stock. One is visible, but superficial. The other is invisible and vital. So there is an apparent union, a membership with the church, and a profession of religion which, though in itself good, is too often unaccompanied by saving faith in Jesus or living obedience to the commandments of God." (Signs of the Times, July 27, 1888.) This visible, superficial, apparent, professed membership in the church is "in itself good." In other words, no one should be denied the privilege of joining the church, even if their motives and sincerity may not be fully apparent. But the important point is that church membership is not the same as saving faith, and the church is not solely a group of faithful believers. The visible church includes within it more than obedient Christians.

Ron responds:

The gist of the above conclusion by Amazing Facts, is truly amazing alright! The gist is that no matter what a person does, he/she should be permitted to be a member of the church. Ellen White defines tares as insincere believers whose motives one would have to judge in order to remove him/her from membership. That cannot be done, but open sin is to be removed from the church and that is not occurring in the church today. Open sin flourishes. "Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church..." Christ's Object Lessons, 71.

From the preceding statements, we can see that there are two distinct categories described in the Spirit of Prophecy. One is the visible church, and the other is faithful souls. Since both of these categories can be called "the church," it is only by a careful study of context that we can determine which church is being referred to in a given statement.

Ron responds:

Again, Amazing Facts deals with only two distinct categories described in the Spirit of Prophecy, when the Spirit of Prophecy describes THREE categories, the third being open sinning THORNS. Amazing Facts is thus most erroneous in their conclusions. There should be only two groups, the wheat and the insincere tares, but there are three groups, the third being the open sinning corrupt apostates and the ringleaders of the apostasy are the leaders themselves!

The visible church, which is specified in Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 4, p. 16, has a special purpose. Though it cannot save individuals, its function is to be the center of God's government on earth. It is to reveal God's character and His laws to a rebellious world. It is to be a center of outreach to those who are deceived by Satan. It includes both saved and unsaved individuals, because it includes all who make a profession of faith in Christ. It is to be a teacher of salvation and a guide to salvation. The "faithful soul" church is described in Acts of the Apostles, p. 11. It is made up of individuals whose hearts have responded to God in genuine faith and obedience and who are in a saving relationship with Christ. Some of these are in the visible church while others, who are fully surrendered to God but have limited light, are outside the visible church. It is membership in this spiritual body that assures us a place in heaven. To say that the visible church is always equivalent to the "faithful soul" church is to seriously distort the teachings of the Spirit of Prophecy and to misunderstand the distinct purpose of these two groups. One cannot select a preferred definition of the church and then try to force all other usages of the word to conform to this preferred definition. We can wrest the Spirit of Prophecy to our own destruction just as surely as we can wrest the Scriptures. [Highlighted emphasis by Ron]

Ron responds: And Amazing Facts is skilled in wrestling the Spirit of Prophecy, by concluding that there are only two groups in the church, the wheat and the insincere tares, WHEN THERE ARE THREE—THE THIRD BEING THE OPEN SINING CORRUPT APOSTATES WHICH INCLUDES THE LEADERS CORPORATELY! To say or imply that the visible church is to be inclusive of open sinners, and membership with it is to be maintained no matter what it's state of corruption is a grave error and is not supported by Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy.

Two Visible Churches

As we look back through history, we can see two visible churches in action-one established by God to demonstrate His character and laws and one established by Satan to counterwork God's plans. Immediately after the Flood, Satan set his church into motion through the city and tower of Babel. God soon saw fit to call Abraham out of the society where Satan's principles were being followed. Abraham became the father of God's visible church, and it is important to note that although Jacob's 12 sons were not all faithful believers, they were all part of, and fathers of, God's true visible church on earth. Some might ask why God directed Abraham to move into Canaan, whose inhabitants were followers of Satan's church also. Why should the faithful church move from one center of false worship into another just as wicked? The answer appears as God revealed His ultimate purpose to drive out the pagan tribes and to establish His own center of worship in the land of Canaan. God gave specific orders for His church to have no close relationship or intermarriage with the heathen nations-a principle that He continued to apply to His church right down to the present.

Ron responds: Adventism’s conspiracy to return to ecumenical liaison with Babylon to associate, council/counsel, gird and confederate with them is intermarriage with the fallen churches and the heathen non-Chrisitian churches the World Council of Churches admits to its membership. All who engage this KNOWINGLY, are corporately responsible for the church's ecumenical pursuits.

When God called Israel out of Egypt, He put into operation a plan designed to completely replace Satan's church in Canaan with His own visible church. Again it is important to note that God's true church included a mixed multitude of faithful and unfaithful souls, a situation which did not improve dramatically even after they entered Canaan. After a time, God's true visible church took a major step in disobedience by asking for a king so it could be more like Satan's church. God continued to work through Israel's kings as much as possible, but His plans were severely hampered by increasing apostasy in His visible church. Satan's church, on the other hand, developed first in Assyria and then in Babylon. Things got so bad in God's church that He had to allow Assyria to destroy 10 of the 12 tribes He had laboriously brought out of Egypt. It has been suggested that when Israel broke God's covenant they were not the true church. If that had been the case, God would have been without a true, visible church for most of the history of Israel. We marvel at the extreme mercy and long suffering of God in dealing with His backsliding people.

Ron responds: Doug Bachelor, a trained minister, should not be ignorant of the fact that God has a pure church that separated from the apostates as far back as Shiloh, the first civilized settlement after coming out of the bondage of Egypt:

"The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding that this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.

It seems to us that God should have cut them off when their apostasy was so deep and pervasive. In order to understand how long and patiently He bore with them, read the command of God to His prophet Hosea. "And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the Lord." Hosea 1:2. The church of Israel was in full apostasy, and God's response was direct. He commanded the prophet to give names to his children that would bear witness to the whole nation concerning their spiritual condition. After the birth of his third child, Hosea was told by God: "Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God." Hosea 1:9. This does sound like God was through with Israel as His visible church, and that He was ready to move on to some other plan for accomplishing His purposes. But in the very next verse God said, "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God." Hosea 1:10. We must always remember the difference between God's chastisements and God's rejection, and be able to tell the difference between the two. Because Israel had broken God's covenant, God had to abandon His people to their own choices-temporarily. But as long as Israel continued to be God's church, He would work to secure their repentance and obedience so that He could once again call them His sons.

Ron responds: Once again Doug Bachelor is grossly misleading God’s people. He is leading them to believe that God was tolerant of Israel’s early apostasy. That is not true whatsoever! Notice that God said the Jews in Jeremiah’s time committed unpardonable sin, Jeremiah 11:9-15:

And the Lord said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.

11 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.

12 Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.

13 For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal.

14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.

15 What hath my beloved [BRIDE] to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest. Jeremiah 11:9-15.

When God instructed Jeremiah not to even pray for that generation of Jews, that connoted unpardonable sin. How could Doug Bachelor, a professional minister, make such a serious blunder as to miss this serious AMAZING FACT?!

When a church has removed God and has conspired with His enemies, that is God's line in the sand as far as the corporate probation of the church is concerned. SDA's have violated that "line in the sand" via ecumenical fraternity with Babylon. See Jeremiah 11:9-15. Then see Isaiah 8:9-12. Also see the marginal definition for slaughter weapon in Ezekiel 9:2, is "a weapon of His breaking in pieces." Ezekiel 9 will be literally repeated because of Association, Counsel, Girding and Confederacy of the church with Babylon's agencies. "The people of God are not to stand upon common ground, but upon the holy ground of gospel truth." E.G. White, Review and Herald Articles, August 1, 1893, col. 2.

Did Ellen White say There Would be an End-time Counterpart to the Jews God told Jeremiah not to Pray for?

Should Doug Bachelor know that the apostles warned about an end-time counterpart to the apostate Jews of Jeremiah’s generation? Is that what the people pay him tithe for?

COUNTERPART: "The Lord commanded one of his ancient servants, 'Pray not thou for this people [Jer. 7:16 and 11:14], neither lift up cry nor prayer for them neither make intercession to me for I will not hear thee.' The prophet thus describes the sins which had called forth this fearful denunciation: 'The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means and my people love to have it so and what will ye do in the end thereof?' 'From the least of them even unto the greatest of them, every one is given to covetousness and from the prophet even unto the priest, every one dealeth falsely. They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace, when there is no peace.' The apostles declare that this state of things will find its COUNTERPART in the last days. Many have a form of godliness, but in their daily life deny the power thereof. They have ceased to be convicted of their sins or alarmed at their state. They say in their hearts, 'The church is flourishing. Peace and spiritual prosperity are within her borders.' The words of the prophet may well apply to these self-deceivers, 'They have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them." E. G. White,  Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald,  11-07-82.

                  

COUNTERPART: "In the time of the Saviour, the Jews had so covered over the precious jewels of truth with the rubbish of tradition and fable, that it was impossible to distinguish the true from the false. The Saviour came to clear away the rubbish of superstition and long-cherished errors, and to set the jewels of God's word in the framework of truth. What would the Saviour do if he should come to us now as he did to the Jews? He would have to do a similar work in clearing away the rubbish of tradition and ceremony. The Jews were greatly disturbed when he did this work [As are SDAs today!]. They had lost sight of the original truth of God, but Christ brought it again to view. It is our work to free the precious truths of God from superstition and error." E.G. White,  Review and Herald, vol. 2, 308. 

 

There is a modern COUNTERPART to the ancient apostate "chosen people" of God. That modern COUNTERPART is the people who claim to be the modern "chosen people" of God, the remnant, God’s commandment-keeping people if you will.

 

There are over 100 statements to the affect that SDAs are repeating the history of ancient Israel. Here are just a few of them:

 

"I have been shown that the spirit of the world is fast leavening the church. You are following the same path as did ancient Israel. There is the same falling away from your holy calling as God's peculiar people. You are having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. Your [ecumenical] concord with unbelievers have provoked he Lord's displeasure. You know not the things that belong to your peace, and they are fast being hid from your eyes. [The very words applied to fallen Israel on page 17 of The Great Controversy] Your neglect to follow the light will place you in a more unfavorable position than the Jews upon whom Christ pronounced a woe." Testimonies, Vol. 5, pp. 75-76.

 

"Like ancient Israel, the church has dishonored her God by departing from the light, neglecting her duties, and abusing her high and exalted privilege of being peculiar and holy in character. Her members have violated their covenant to live for God and him only. They have joined with the selfish and world-loving. Pride, the love of pleasure, and sin have been cherished, and CHRIST HAS DEPARTED. His Spirit has been quenched in the church. Satan works wide by side with professed Christians yet they are so destitute of spiritual discernment that they do not detect him." E.G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 2, pp. 441-442.

 

"Among the professed followers of Christ, there is the same pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, and OPPRESSION, that existed in the Jewish nation." E.G. White, Sketches from the Life of Paul, 251-252.

 

"God's professed people are selfish and self-caring....They are idolaters, and are worse, in the sight of God, than the heathen, graven-image worshippers who have had no knowledge of a better way." Testimonies, Vol. 2, 440-441.

 

Am I remiss in observing (reasoning) that worse than heathen, graven-image worshippers, means worse than Babylon? Especially after knowing the truth and a knowledge of a better way! If I am how and why? and if I am I apologize. By the above statement it is flattery, presumption, and patronization error to refer to the apostate SDA church as Babylon! No, let it not be said by one Tom Cusack that Ron Beaulieu believes the church is Babylon! I concur with Ellen White that God's professed people are worse than Babylonian heathen “The Testimony For The

Church—The Laodicean Church—What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are ALL WRONG?”  Testimonies, Vol. 3, pp. 253, 254.

         

 idol worshippers! Worse than Catholics! Worse than the great Whore! Why? Because they had the light of truth and have willfully united with the great whore in business partnership! Ellen White said we are never to unite with unbelievers in business partnership, let alone the great Whore of Babylon!

 

Unbelievers according to Scripture—the following verses have always applied to Babylon—the world AND the fallen churches:

 

2Cr 6:14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

 

 2Cr 6:15  And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

 

 2Cr 6:16  And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

 2Cr 6:17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

 

 2Cr 6:18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

"Now it is just EXACTLY as in the days of the Jews. When a message came in, why all the power of the leaders [such some leaders on this forum] WAS PUT AGAINST IT, THAT IT SHOULD NOT HAVE ACCESS TO THE PEOPLE. Now, brethren, GO TO GOD FOR YOURSELVES, and on your knees plead with God...If God sends us light, let it come to us, and let no man close the door, or try to close it. Don't close it yourselves. Open the door of your heart and let the brilliant rays of light shine into your heart and into your mind. I pray you, let the Sun of Righteousness in." E.G. White, Manuscript Release #900, Manuscript 9, 1890. 1888 Materials, p. 541.

 

"The day of God is right upon us, and the world has converted the church. Both are in harmony, and are acting upon a short-sited policy" E.G. White, General Conference Bulletin, 1st Quarter, 1900. January 1, 1900 par. 10}

 

"The leaven if godliness has not entirely lost its power. At the time when the danger and depression of the church are greatest, the little company who are standing in the light will be sighing and crying for the abominations that are done in the land. But MORE ESPECIALLY will their prayers arise in behalf of the church because ITS MEMBERS are doing after the manner of the world." Testimonies, Vol. 5, 209, 210.

 

Here we have reference to "...when the danger and depression of the church are greatest..." This can only refer to the SDA church, because it is she who will experience such danger and depression.

We find a little company (remnant) standing in the light and they are not MEMBERS, because the MEMBERS are doing after the manner of the world, and if the little company were MEMBERS of the church, they would be doing after the manner of the world also! Come, let us reason together. We were given the ability and license to so reason.

 

Conditional Statements Concerning the Church

 

"If most earnest vigilance is not manifested at the great heart of the work to protect the interests of the cause, the church will become as corrupt as the churches of other denominations." Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 4, p. 513.

 

"We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree...We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird, and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? E. G. White, Manuscript Releases No. 449, pp. 17, 18.

 

"If most earnest vigilance is not manifested at the great heart of the

work to protect the interests of the cause, the church will become as

corrupt as the churches of other denominations." (Testimonies for the

Church, Vol. 4, p. 513.)

 

"The world must not be introduced into the church, and married to the church, forming a bond of unity. Through this means the church will become indeed corrupt, and as stated in Revelation, 'a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.'" (Testimonies to Ministers, p. 265.)

 

If Ellen White saw the church going through with a blanket approval, such warnings as stated above are superfluous, foolish, and self-contradictory.

 

"It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to unite with those who are corrupt, and still remain pure. (II Corinthians 6:14-15 quoted). God and Christ and the heavenly host would have men know that if he unites with the corrupt he will become corrupt." E. G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 4, p. 137.

 

This statement is also foolish, superfluous and redundant, if we cannot judge what Ellen White brands as corrupt. If judging corruptness is only idle and ill conceived criticism, based on focusing on mere flaws, defects and weaknesses, then we should have remained with Rome!

 

"Any connection with infidels and UNBELIEVERS which would identify us with them is FORBIDDEN by the word. We are to come out from them and be separate. in no case are we to link ourselves with them in their plans or work." E. G. White, Fundamentals of Christian Education, 482.

 

"I saw that since the second angel proclaimed the fall of the churches, they have been growing more and more corrupt. They bear the name of being Christ's followers yet it is IMPOSSIBLE to distinguish them from ...Satan has taken FULL POSSESSION of the churches as a body." E.G. White, Early Writings, 273.

 

Not to CONFEDERATE

 

[Revelation 18:1-3, quoted.] We Are Not to Confederate With Worldlings Lest We Become Spiritually Confused. While this message [of Revelation 18] is sounding, while the proclamation of truth is doing its separating work, we as faithful sentinels of God are to discern
what our real position is. We are not to confederate with worldlings, lest we become imbued with their spirit, lest our spiritual discernment become confused, and we view those who have the truth and bear the message of the Lord from the standpoint of the professed Christian churches.--Letter 86a, 1893, p. 22. ("To Every Man His Work," cir. January 1893.)

 

If any church should link itself with unbelievers, we are to come out from them and be separate. The instruction is clear. Notwithstanding the SDA church’s' links with the ecumenical movement, it has linked in PARTNERSHIP with the Catholics at their hospital in Colorado. Every MEMBER of the church is responsible for this corrupt liaison with unbelievers. This act alone calls for separation.

 

Satan contrives through evil angels to form an alliance with professedly pious men, and thus to leaven the church of God. Fallen men and fallen angels are, through apostasy, in the same confederacy, leagued to work against good. They unite in a desperate companionship. Satan knows that if he can induce men, as he induced the angels, to join in rebellion under the guise of servants of God, he will have in them his most successful allies in his enterprise against heaven. Under the name of godliness, he can inspire them with his own accusing spirit, and charge them with evil. They are his trained detectives. Their work is to create feuds, to make charges which create discord and bitterness among brethren, to set tongues in active service for Satan, to sow seeds of dissension by watching for evil and speaking of that which will create discord.” {18MR 366.1}

         

"Worldly policy is taking the place of true piety and wisdom that comes from above, and God will remove His prospering hand from the conference. Shall the ark of the covenant be removed from this people? Shall idols be smuggled in? Shall false principles and false precepts be brought into the sanctuary? Shall antichrist be respected? Shall the true doctrines and principles given us of God, which have made us what we are, be ignored?.... This is directly where the enemy, through blinded, unconsecrated men, is leading us." E. G. White, Manuscript 29, 1890.

 

"The Bible Prophets Wrote for Our Time.--Never are we absent from the mind of God. God is our joy and our salvation. Each of the ancient prophets spoke less for their own time than for ours, so that their prophesying is in force for us. 'Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come' (1 Cor. 10:11). 'Not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven which things the angels desire to look into' (1 Peter 1:12).'" E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 3, p. 338.

 

Were the Bible prophets just discouraged about Israel as Tom says soothsays Ellen White was when writing the following:

 

"And thou, Capernaum [Seventh-day Adventists, who have had great light], which art exalted unto heaven [in point of privilege], shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, than for thee." E.G. White, Review and Herald Articles, vol. 3, p. 69, col. 3.

 

Ezekiel 9 separation "The angel with the writer's ink horn is to place a mark upon the foreheads of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel follows this angel (Letter 12, 1886). {4BC 1161.5}

 

Judgments of Capernaum

 

“It is the absence of personal religion, of a daily, living experience in the things of God, that creates such coldness and stupor in the church. We have enjoyed great light and many privileges. Shall we turn away from all these blessings, and sacrifice the peculiar, holy character which should distinguish us as children of God? If we thus slight the mercy of God, the judgments denounced against Capernaum will surely fall upon us. Our punishment will be heavier than if we had not enjoyed so great light. Thus the warnings, reproofs, and counsels, which, accepted and obeyed, would bring us untold blessings, become a curse when they are rejected.” {RH, November 7, 1882 par. 7}

 

"In the fear and love of God I tell those before whom I stand today that there is increased light for us, and that great blessings come with the reception of this light. And when I see my brethren stirred with anger against God's messages and messengers, I think of similar scenes in the life of Christ and the Reformers. The reception given to God's servants in past ages is the same as the reception that those today receive through whom God is sending precious rays of light. The leaders of the people today pursue the same course of action that the Jews pursued. They criticize and ply question after question, and refuse to admit evidence, treating the light sent them in the very same way that the Jews treated the light Christ brought them." E.G. White, The 1888 Materials, Vol. 2, p. 911.

 

Why doesn’t Dough Bachelor warn you of these things? Because the people love it when he prophesies peace and safety to them NO MATTER WHAT THE CHURCH DOES! It’s just as much the fault of the people who support him!

"O Israel, return unto the Lord thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." "I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him." Hosea 14:1, 4. Although Israel was in full apostasy, God had not yet rejected them which is not teaching and living the truth is not God's church at all. But let us look more closely at the church in Corinth to see whether or not this is so.

Ron responds:Ron responds: The final probation for Israel did not end until A.D. 34, but that did not prevent the faithful from worshipping on their own, per Ellen White's recreant priest statement, because God's beloved bride is not beguiled by women (fallen churches).

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord." 1 Corinthians 1:2. Everything that follows in this letter is directed to the church of God, composed of all those who are sanctified [set apart], called, and who call on Jesus' name. "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. ... For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" 1 Corinthians 3:1, 3. "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you." 1 Corinthians 11:18, 19. In God's visible church were carnal professed Christians, as well as divisions and heresies. Although not all of its members were Christians, the Bible says the Corinthian church was part of the visible church of God.

Ron responds: There is a huge difference between heresies being AMONG the church, and the church teaching heresies! If we can be members of a church that teaches heresies, then let’s all go back to the heretical churches of our fathers! Doug never mentions to his patrons that God gave Israel a bill of divorce!

Jeremiah 3:8
“And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.”
 

"When Christ saw in the Jewish people a nation divorced from God, He saw also a professed Christian church united to the world and the papacy... Will He be obliged to say to those who have had great light and great knowledge, as He said to the Jews, 'O that thou hadst known, even thou in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace. But now they are hid from thine eyes.'" The Kress Collection, p.153, July 10, 1900.

 

According to God’s law, it is unlawful to remarry a divorced woman.

 

“If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD.” Deut. 24:4.

 

Does God violate His own commandment? I think not!

The next step in the history of the Christian church is very important, because many people say that the church of the apostles turned into the Papacy-in other words, that the true church turned into Babylon. To find out whether or not this is true, perhaps we need to see exactly where the Papacy originated. "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority." Revelation 13:2.

The Papacy received its power, its place of government, and its authority from Satan, who was working at that time through the Roman empire. From its very beginning, the Papacy was part of Satan's visible church, in a direct line from Babylon through Rome. The Papacy was never God's true church at all. Let us review what happened during the first centuries of the Christian era. In Alexandria, Egypt, a school of philosophy and theology had existed from before the time of Christ. In fact, the school at Alexandria had more than a little to do with the corruption of the Jewish church through the education of its most promising young men.

When Christianity came on the scene, the Alexandrian school began to study these new teachings, incorporating them into its philosophical models. The Alexandrian Christian school combined mysticism, pagan philosophy, and a careless handling and interpretation of the Scriptures into an apostate form of Christianity almost from the very start. Alexandria had great influence on the Western branch of the Christian church, especially in Rome, Italy. These two Christian centers were the first to combine Christian teachings with pagan ideas and to discredit the Bible Sabbath. Thus the Papacy was the direct descendant of Babylon through Rome and Alexandria.

In the meantime, an entirely different Christian school was developing in Antioch, Syria. Here the teachers and students were much more faithful to the authority of Scripture, refusing to mystify and spiritualize away clear teachings of Scripture. They copied and interpreted Scripture very faithfully and did their best to pass on the teachings of Christ and the apostles accurately. This brand of Christianity spread within the Eastern branch of the church, which remained much more faithful to the truth than did the Western branch. However, this more faithful Eastern church should not be confused with the later Orthodox churches in the East, which were closely patterned in theology and ritual after the Papacy in the West.

Thus, the true church did not turn into Babylon, but remained vital and growing for centuries, while the false church continued directly in the line of Babylon. Now it is true that individuals and whole congregations changed sides occasionally during this formative period-both from God's church to Satan's church and, more rarely, from Satan's church to God's church. But this must not obscure the fact that the two churches remained distinct and separate from each other. (See time line on pp. 16, 17.) Unfortunately, the Eastern church was not to be left in prosperity. The Mohammedan invasions took their toll on the Eastern part of the Roman empire, and Eastern Christianity was gradually swallowed up by these invasions. The great centers of the Eastern church were eliminated and could no longer stand in defense of the truth against Western perversions of true Christianity. The only part of the Roman empire to stand intact was in Rome itself. The church in Rome became the professed defender of Christianity and, ultimately, the only form of Christianity recognized during the Dark Ages.

As the Roman church forced the true visible church to flee into the wilderness for survival, hundreds of years passed by, with God's true visible church receiving very little recognition from the civilized Christian world. Reports filtered out of England and Ethiopia confirming the activities of many faithful Christians. Only later did the Waldenses in Italy and the Huguenots in France receive notoriety as they suffered intense persecution by Satan's church. Then the Reformation broke upon the Christian scene, and Lutheranism and Presbyterianism carried the torch of God's true visible church. Next, the Anabaptists and Methodists came into the picture. Satan's church, meanwhile, received a deadly wound in 1798, from which some thought it would never recover. During these centuries, there were again individuals and congregations which crossed from one side to the other; but as before, the two churches remained distinct. (See time line on pp. 16, 17.) Babylon did not turn into the true church.

Finally we come to the climactic time period of William Miller and the giving of the midnight cry. God was challenging all the Christian bodies who carried the torch of truth to move ahead into the advancing light, including the Sabbath and the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary. If they would not move with the light, they would be left in darkness and would actually become part of the spiritual system of Babylon. For the first time in history, whole denominations switched from the true church to the false church. Those who were obedient to the gathering call formed the Seventh-day Adventist movement to function as the final remnant, God's visible church, which would ultimately be formed into the 144,000 and give the loud cry to Babylon. Those who refused to heed the gathering call became the daughters of Babylon, soon to be fully absorbed into Babylon.

Ron responds: If Amazing Facts was consistent they would say that we could have remained in the Protestant churches no matter what they did--even if they resisted truth, for the honest dwell with the dishonest! God's line in the sand is clearly seen in observing the reason Adventists came out of the apostate Protestant churches. There was primarily ONE REASON. The churches refused light. Now the SDA church has refused the light of Isaiah 8:9-12, by uniting again with Babylon via its Associations, Councils, Girdings and Confederacies. Also, by rejecting the light of the Spirit of Prophecy, by accepting worldly Accreditation Standards in its educational facilities. That effectively marries the church to the world by teaching its curriculim to SDA youth. And very importantly--Christ Himself "gathered out" from Apostate Israel beginning in A.D. 27, at least three and one-half years before its probation was over, and some 43 years before the apostate church was destroyed in PREFIGURE, in A.D. 70. So it will be again. As well, the church adopted Rome’s central doctrine, which sweeps away the heavenly Sanctuay/Atonement and thus the entire Christian economy. If you want to know how and why, study the godhead on my Website.

"Christ was a protestant...The Reformers date back to Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the apostles." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 48, col. 2.

"The Sanhedrin had rejected Christ's message and was bent upon His death; therefore Jesus departed from Jerusalem, from the priests, the temple, the religious leaders, the people who had been instructed in the law, and turned to another class to proclaim His message, and to gather out those who should carry the gospel to all nations. As the light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeedng generation. Again and again the history of Christ's withdrawal from Judea has been repeated. When the Reformers preached the word of God, they had no thought of separating themselves from the established church; but the religious leaders would not tolerate the light, and those that bore it were forced to seek another class, who were longing for the truth. In our day few of the professed followers of the Reformers are actuated by their spirit. Few are listening for the voice of God, and ready to accept truth in whatever guise it may be presented. Often those who follow in the steps of the Reformers are forced to turn away from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the word of God. And many times those who are seeking for light are by the same teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience." E.G. White, Desire of Ages, 232. God's plan for the visible church is that it will pass through a time of shaking and purging, so that unfaithful professors will be shaken out while the faithful believers go to the world with the final loud cry. Individuals and congregations will again switch sides at this time, but it is not God's plan to raise up a new visible church to replace the corporate Seventh-day Adventist church.

The general consensus among the "dumb-dog" watchmen and their dumb sheep patrons, is that the bad are shaken out of the visible church militant to leave it the final purged and purified church triumphant. That is not according to Ellen White. That is not according to Scripture. Ellen White clearly says that the church militant is the field. Where does a farmer burn his tares? In the barn or in the field? In the field, of course! Ezekiel agrees. He tells us where the tares are gathered and melted in the antitypicaly fulfillment of the A.D. 70 PREFIGURE. See Ezekiel 22:17-31. The shaking out of the tares is performed by the church triumphant, Zion, Ezekiel 20:34-38.

The most important thing to note from this brief review of history is that God's visible church and Satan's visible church have remained distinct from the very beginning. Also, God's visible church has always included faithful believers as well as unfaithful professors.

Adventism and Babylon

In light of this understanding of God's visible church, what conclusions can we draw regarding the present and future of the Seventh-day Adventist church? Let us look carefully at God's counsel through the Spirit of Prophecy. When the school at Battle Creek began to depart from God's plan, especially regarding the amusements being provided, Ellen White quoted the text, "How is the faithful city become an harlot!" (Special Testimonies on Education, p. 181.)

In another context, her divine Instructor said to Ellen: "How is the faithful city become an harlot! My Father's house is made a house of merchandise, a place whence the divine presence and glory have departed! For this cause there is weakness, and strength is lacking." (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 8, p. 250.) Serious charges, indeed! The Seventh-day Adventist church is a harlot and God's presence has left it? Surely this was a final judgment against the organized church. But look again. Her very next words are:

"Unless the church, which is now being leavened with her own backsliding, shall repent and be converted, she will eat of the fruit of her own doing, until she shall abhor herself. When she resists the evil and chooses the good, when she seeks God with all humility and reaches her high calling in Christ, standing on the platform of eternal truth and by faith laying hold upon the attainments prepared for her, she will be healed. She will appear in her God-given simplicity and purity, separate from earthly entanglements, showing that the truth has made her free indeed. Then her members will indeed be the chosen of God, His representatives." What God was saying to the Seventh-day Adventist church is exactly what He was saying to Israel through Hosea. Rather than a statement of rejection, this was an appeal for repentance and obedience, and it carried a promise of healing. God appealed to His visible church to repent before it might cross a final line.

Ron responds: Yes indeed, Ellen White's appeal was so the church might not cross a final line. That final line was crossed when the church engaged the strictly forbidden practice of re-uniting with Babylon, via ecumenical ASSOCIATION, GIRDING, COUNSEL AND CONFEDERACY and by adopting Rome’s central doctrine, the Trinity doctrine in 1980. For that the church will be broken in pieces Isaiah 8:9-12. The church also crossed God's line by bringing the world into the church via the instrumentality of accepting the world's Accreditation Standards, beginning in 1930, just fifteen years after Ellen White died. She said that if the world was brought into the church, it would become the cage of every unclean and hateful bird, language used by Scripture to define Babylon. Then she said that if the church continued permitting unlawful intimacy and licentiousness, it would become a sister to fallen Babylon. Unlawful intimacy and licentiousness refers to perversion of marriage validations in Scripture. Here is a statement by the Review, which says that the SDA church has a divorce percentage rate commensurate with that of the world:

Adventist Review reported on how the divorce rate of the church is equal to that of the world in percentage rate per capita.  The following quote is taken from the Adventist Review link below:

http://www.adventistreview.org/2000-1547/story1.html

"Despite the energy that most churches put into premarital training, the divorce rate for Christians, including Seventh-day Adventists (see sidebar "Religious Organizations and Issues Regarding Marriage"), is comparable to that in society." Adventist Review, p. 8, Learning the Ropes Before Tying the Knot, October 19, 2000.

We know that the divorces in the world involve much unlawful intimacy and licentiousness, so it would be naive to conclude that since the SDA church has the same percentage rate of divorce as the world, it follows that the church is seeping in unlawful intimacy and licentiousness as regards the sacred marriage institution. So who could sanely conclude that the following E.G. White statement has not been fulfilled:

"We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree...We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird, and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? E. G. White, Manuscript Releases No. 449, pp. 17, 18.

"Worldly policy is taking the place of true piety and wisdom that comes from above, and God will remove His prospering hand from the conference. Shall the ark of the covenant be removed from this people? Shall idols be smuggled in? Shall false principles and false precepts be brought into the sanctuary? Shall antichrist be respected? Shall the true doctrines and principles given us of God, which have made us what we are, be ignored?.... This is directly where the enemy, through blinded, unconsecrated men, is leading us." E. G. White, Manuscript 29, 1890.

Also, see this link: http://adventistreview.org/2003-1543/story4.html

End Ron's comment.

Ellen White wrote to George Butler, the General Conference president, in 1886: "We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird. ... I tell you the truth, Elder Butler, that unless there is a cleansing of the soul temple on the part of many who claim to believe and to preach the truth, God's judgments, long deferred, will come." (Letter 51, 1886.) "If most earnest vigilance is not manifested at the great heart of the work to protect the interests of the cause, the church will become as corrupt as the churches of other denominations." (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 4, p. 513.) "The world must not be introduced into the church, and married to the church, forming a bond of unity. Through this means the church will become indeed corrupt, and as stated in Revelation, 'a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.'" (Testimonies to Ministers, p. 265.)

These are very, very solemn warnings to God's visible church. We cannot pretend that they do not exist and that if we do not read them they will somehow not apply to us. We dare not make the mistake of the Jews, who believed that because God had called them to be His chosen people it was impossible for them to fail. We live under the principle of conditional prophecy just as surely as God's Old Testament church did. This means that both the beautiful promises of God to this church and His warnings to us are conditional upon our response to Him. Our obedience or disobedience will determine what the future holds for us individually or as a church. Ellen White makes it clear that a church can be converted into Babylon, but the process is not an easy or simple one.

Disobedience-even over a long period of time, or in a number of different areas-does not turn the true church into Babylon. God's love for His chosen people is too deep and strong to allow Him to cast them off for even repeated failures. God's love for Israel over many disappointing centuries should instruct us about His attitude toward His remnant church today. Israel crossed the line of divine patience only after it rejected, openly and defiantly, the ultimate gift of God's love by sentencing His Son to death. As we understand from Daniel's prophecy, God's final separation from the Jewish nation did not take place for another three and a half years after the crucifixion. What long suffering and mercy! [Bold emphasis of Doug’s above statements by Ron]

Ron's response: The GENERATION of Jews in Jeremiah’s day, whom he was instructed by God not to pray for, proved that a church could commit unpardonable sin in ONE GENRATION. So Bachelor is dead wrong about God tolerating apostasy for centuries. It depends on the type of apostasy.

Amazing Facts is totally inconsistent and contradicts itself when it concludes in one place within this document that we can settle FOREVER that the church will go through, and then says that it can be converted into Babylon. Only one or the other is true.

To think that God will give SDAs the time He gave Israel to cross the line of divine patience, is preposterous, in view of the fact that we have their example as a teacher. Even though God's final separation from the Jewish nation did not take place for another three and a half years after the crucifixion, Jesus was "gathering out" those who would take the gospel to the world, as His first act of ministry in A.D. 27, seven years before its probation was up. Desire of Ages, 232.

We are told what steps our church will have to take to cross the line that Israel crossed. If our church were to adopt, openly and officially, the errors of Sunday sacredness, the immortality of the soul, and eternal torment, then we too would become a part of fallen Babylon. (See Selected Messages,Vol. 2, p. 68 and Testimonies to Ministers, pp. 61, 62.) However, we must remember that small deviations from truth lead to larger errors. Our compromises over the last 50 years need to be addressed and reversed, or we could be in real danger of adopting the major errors of Babylon.

Ron responds: It is so woefully ignorant on the part of Doug Bachelor to imply that the church would have to teach all the errors of Babylon to become a part of fallen Babylon. And he implies that Israel crossed that line! They did no such thing!

The SDA church is corporately responsible for EVERY ONE OF THE FALSE DOCTRINES DOUG BACHELOR ENUMERATES ABOVE, BECAUSE THEY PAY LARGE ANNUAL DUES TO BABYLONS WORLD COUNCIL OF CHURCHES ANNUALLY IN EVERY COUNTRY VIA VARIOUS SUBSIDIARY NATIONAL COUNCILS OF CHURCHES AND MORE LOCAL MINISTERIAL ASSOCIATIONS.

If I sent dues to the church of Satan in San Francisco, you would tell me I am corporately responsible for perpetrating their teachings! The same principle applies to the professing new movement, new organization SDA “church,” which is rather the Synagogue of Satan because it now belongs to the Wourld Council of Churches or Satan’s Synagogue of Churches. And if you know/knew the history of the development of that Satanic council and why it was developed, you would be forced to agree that it is the Synagogue of Satan.

Ellen White clearly states other means by which the church could and indeed has become part of Babylon, and her statements are clear that the church would not have to embrace all of the doctrines of Babylon in order to become a part of Babylon. Proof ABSOLUTE of this fact is that Ellen White called the church a harlot in 1903, Testimonies, Vol. 8, p. 250, and it was not teaching all the doctrines of Babylon then, and never has! Nevertheless, a harlot is a daughter of Babylon! Amazing facts even quotes Ellen White on that passage within this document, but is too lacking in spiritual discernment to see the connection in what they are saying. A harlot is a harlot is a harlot! A harlot can repent, but not after she marries into the Synagogue of Satan by confederating with Satan’s associations, counsels/councils, girdings, and/or confederacies by conspiracy.

Ellen White on Babylon

 

The church can and has become part of (a sister to) fallen Babylon by ANY ONE of the following violations:

 

“A similar work will be accomplished when that other angel, represented in Revelation 18, gives his message. The first, second, and third angels’ messages will need to be repeated. The call will be given to the church, “Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins.” “Babylon, the great, is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.... Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: for her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities” [Revelation 18:2-5]. {16MR 270.1}

 

"The world must not be introduced into the church, and married to the church, forming a bond of unity. Through this means the church will become indeed corrupt, and as stated in Revelation, 'a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.'" Testimonies to Ministers, p. 265.

 

The church was married to the world in the early 1930's when a few leaders adopted the world's Accreditation Standards for our educational facilities. Satan could have no finer track to the youth of the church than through the world's education curriculum.

 

"If the church of God becomes LUKEWARM [LAODICEAN] it does not stand in favor with God any more than do the churches that are represented as having fallen and become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Those who have had opportunities to hear and receive the truth, and who have united with the Seventh-day Adventist church, calling themselves the commandment keeping people of God, and yet possess no more vitality and consecration to God than do the nominal churches, will receive of the plagues of God just as verily as the churches who oppose the law of God." E.G. White, Letter 35, 1898.

 

Did the church become Laodicean? Has the church remained Laodicean? No! It has become both COLD APOSTATE AND LUKEWARM. The liberals are cold apostate, and the conservatives are lukewarm.

 

If Laodicea is not regarded with any more favor by God than the fallen churches, and the call of Laodicea is to all churches, then there is no difference between Laodicea and the fallen churches as far as being in a fallen state is concerned. Different churches believe different aspects of Babylonian teachings, but Ellen White equates them all as far as falling from the favor of God is concerned, and as far as constituting the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

 

"We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree...We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird, and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? E. G. White, Manuscript Releases No. 449, pp. 17, 18. (Letter 51, 1886 to Elder Butler) Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce, p. 193.

 

An Adventist Review article says that the church has the same divorce rate per capita percentage ration as the world. Does that sound like the unlawful intimacies have been curbed and the camp has been cleansed?

 

"In the balances of the sanctuary the Seventh-day Adventist church is to be weighed. She will be judged by the privileges and advantages that she has had. . . .I saw our Instructor pointing to the garments of so-called righteousness. Stripping them of, He laid bare he defilement beneath. Then He said to me: 'Can you not see how they have pretentiously covered up their defilement and rottenness of character? How is the faithful city become an harlot?" E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 8, pp. 247-250.

 

Can anyone tell me when the church reformed and revived from it's harlot stance?

 

"The church cannot measure herself by the world nor by the opinion of men nor by what she ONCE was. Her faith and her position in the world as they NOW ARE must be COMPARED (JUDGED) with what they would have been if her course had been continually onward and upward. The church will be weighed in the balances of the sanctuary. If her moral character and spiritual state do not correspond with the benefits and blessings God has conferred upon her, SHE WILL BE FOUND WANTING." Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 83, 84.

 

"When this church is weighed in the balances of the sanctuary, it is found wanting, having left its first love....What is the fatal deficiency?--'Thou has left thy first love...'

The light that gladdened your heart when you first understood the message for this time is an essential element in your experience and labors, and this has been lost out of your heart and life. Christ beholds your lack of zeal, and declares that you have FALLEN, and are in a perilous position." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, pp. 462-3.

Now that we have examined the warnings God has delivered to His church, we must also look at what the Spirit of Prophecy has to say to those who claim that the organized, visible church has already crossed the line and that the faithful ones should separate themselves from it. "No advice or sanction is given in the Word of God to those who believe the third angel's message to lead them to suppose that they can draw apart. This you may settle with yourselves forever. It is the devising of unsanctified minds that would encourage a state of disunion. ... There must be no separating in this great testing time." (Selected Messages, Vol. 3, p. 21.) Please notice how long we are to avoid drawing apart. Forever!! Should this not caution those who are saying that things are so much worse today that her 1893 counsels no longer apply? [emphasis by Ron]

Ron's response: The qualifying words are the ones I have highlighted: “No advice or sanction is given in the Word of God to those who believe the third angel's message to lead them to suppose that they can draw apart. This you may settle with yourselves forever.”

The church DOES NOT believe the third angel’s message when it violates all three messages by ecumenical association, counsel/council, girding and/or conspiratorial confederation with Babylon, AFTER HEARING AND UNDERSTANDING THE TRUTH OF THOSE MESSAGES AND THE MIDNIGHT CRY WHICH GAVE POWER TO THE SECOND ANGEL’S MESSAGE IN 1844. You simply cannot call folk out of Babylon when you are part and parcel of it yourself and you finance it by large annual dues payments which help further the false doctrines of Babylon.

 Is it demonstrative of belief in the second angel's message to Associate, Gird, Counsel and Confederate with Babylon? It is a total violation of that message. So, apparently, the church no longer believes (lives) the second angel's message. Of course it professes it, but does not live and abide by it. Profession means nothing! If Ellen White meant that as long as the church professed the three angel's messages it could do anything it wanted and nothing would ever warrant separation, then she sure contradicted herself in many conditional statements and we cannot know the truth about any matter!

Remember friend, Ellen White said that the ancient men, the leaders, who are responsible for the spiritual interests of the members of the church BETRAYED THEIR TRUST. What is their trust? The three angel’s messages. SDA Pastor Bill Hughes tells on a video presentation how his conference instructed him not to teach the three angel’s messages! http://vimeo.com/12314409 Every SDA leader and member who knows about that serious betrayal of sacred trust, is corporately responsible for it. And Ted Wilson teaches corporate responsibility! Go figure on that one!

"Here we see that the (SDA) church-the Lord's sanctuary-was the first ("For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God. 1 Peter 4:17) to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. ("The wrath of God"=the 7 last plagues-Early Writings, 36, 52, 64, 289; Revelation 15:1, 7; 16:1.) The ancient men, those who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interest of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. ("He loves us so much, no matter what we do, we'll always be the apple of His eye.") Thus Peace and safety' is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob (the leadership) their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children ALL perish together." (ALL excludes nobody-not one. ALL from the leadership to the cradle roll are slain!) Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 211. (The chapter this is taken from begins on page 207, quoting Ezekiel 9).

"I know that the Lord loves His church. It is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms. There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be." (The Remnant Church, p. 53.) "We have never had a message that the Lord would dis-organize the church." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, vol. 3, p. 86.)

Ron's response: There surely in not the least consistency that the SDA church militant would ever be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms. Why? Because according to the PREFIGURE OF A.D. 70, the apostate Jewish church was never broken-up until it was destroyed in A.D. 70. Even after Jesus "gathered out" of it in A.D. 27, those who would take the gospel to the world, the church still remained. Ellen White was entirely correct, and she would have contradicted Scripture to say anything else. But she admitted the failed condition of the church militant when she said that the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was a PREFIGURE, beginning at His Sanctuary (The Great Controversy, p. 25, and Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 211 respectively). That agrees with Ezekiel 5:1-4; 5:9, 22:17-31, and Ellen White would have contradicted Scripture to say anything else!

Ellen White said the church would be brought down to hell and ultimately fall

     "Of those who boast of their light, and yet fail to walk in it, Christ says, 'But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.  And thou, Capernaum [Seventh-day Adventists, who have had great light], with art exalted unto heaven [in point of privilege], shalt be brought down to hell...'

     ‘And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the Lord, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye answered not; therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by My name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.  And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim’” 3RH 69, August 1, 1893 [brackets are as in the original].

 

"Jesus sends HIS PEOPLE a message of warning to prepare them for his coming. To the prophet John was made known the closing work in the great plan of man's redemption. He beheld an angel flying 'in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his Judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters [Rev. 14:6, 7.].

The angel represented in prophecy as delivering this message,  symbolizes a class of faithful men, who, obedient to the promptings of God's Spirit and the teachings of his word, proclaim this warning to the inhabitants of earth. This message was not to be committed to the religious leaders of the people. They had failed to preserve their connection with God, and had REFUSED THE LIGHT FROM HEAVEN therefore they WERE NOT of the number described by the apostle Paul: 'But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day we are not of the night nor of darkness' [1 Thess. 5:4, 5]. 

The watchmen upon the walls of Zion should be the first to catch the tidings of the Saviour's advent, the first to lift their voices to proclaim him near, the first to warn the people to prepare for his coming. But they were at ease, dreaming of peace and safety, while the people were asleep in their sins. Jesus saw HIS CHURCH, like the barren fig-tree, covered with pretentious leaves, yet destitute of precious fruit. There was a boastful observance of the forms of religion, while the spirit of true humility, penitence and faith--which alone could render the service acceptable to God--was lacking. Instead of the graces of the Spirit, there were manifested pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, oppression. A BACKSLIDING CHURCH closed their eyes to the signs of the times. God did nor forsake them, or suffer his faithfulness to fail but they departed from him, and SEPARATED THEMSELVES from his love. As they REFUSED TO COMPLY WITH THE CONDITIONS, his promises were NOT FULFILLED to them."  E.G. White, The Spirit of Prophecy,  vol. 4, pp. 199-200 [The 1884 edition of The Great Controversy, 199, 200].

"The Redeemer of the world does not sanction experience and exercise in religious matters independent of His organized and acknowledged church, where He has a church. Many have the idea that they are responsible to Christ alone for their light and experience, independent of His acknowledged followers in the world. But this is condemned by Jesus in His teachings and in the examples, the facts, which He has given for our instruction." (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 3, pp. 432, 433.).

Ron responds: In regard to the statement that: "The Redeemer of the world does not sanction experience and exercise in religious matters independent of His organized and acknowledged church, where He has a church, one must consider the following crucial facts of history and Ellen White's advice concerning the church during the Alpha of Apostasy:

·       Then why did Christ "gather out" of the apostate Jewish church in A.D. 27, as His first act of ministry?

·       Why did Ellen White tell Elder Haskell to take the youth as far away from the church as possible in the Alpha of Apostasy. The Omega was to be and is--far worse, what then?

·       Is a New Movement that has "removed God," and which we were never to join, His acknowledged church?

·       Why did Ellen White condone the private worship of the Jews when their church was in apostasy, to wit:

"The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes; yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding that this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.

What are we supposed to do since the church did fulfill Ellen White's conditonal statements regarding Babylon, and even if you cannot see that, what about the other points I made above this one? What is your answer to those? End Ron's comment.

"You will take passages in the Testimonies that speak of the close of probation, of the shaking among God's people, and you will talk of a coming out from this people of a purer, holier people that will arise. Now all this pleases the enemy ... Should many accept the views you advance, and talk and act upon them, we should see one of the greatest fanatical excitements that has ever been witnessed among Seventh-day Adventists. This is what Satan wants." (Selected Messages, Vol. 1, p. 179.)

Ron responds: God’s Word says that a pure remnant will go forth out of Jersualem.

31 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:

32 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this. Isaiah 37:31, 32.

Ellen White says that Ezekiel 9 will be literally fulfilled. In the last A.D. 34-70 fulfillment of Ezekiel 9, a faithful remnant left the apostate organized church. The disciples bound, MARKED, (Sealed) those who left. So it will be in the current shaking, for the bride of Christ is not defiled with women (fallen churches) Rev. 14:1-4.

Again, we must consider the time, place and circumstance (context) of her statement. She was writing to Stanton, who in 1893, was calling the church Babylon and saying that the bad would be shaken out THEN, and that there was to be a coming out of a purer and holier people that would arise as a result of his call to them. All that when she said the church was heeding the Laodicean Message, and keeping the commandments of God! He was dead wrong. Right message for the wrong time! He was running before he was sent! But be aware of these facts:

·       Ezekiel 5:1-3, says that a remnant will escape, and then Jerusalem, the church militant will be destroyed.

·       Ezekiel 5:9, gives the context (TIME) of his prophesy. How? Why? Because he says it will be the worst thing God has ever done or ever will do and that comes at the end time--Matthew 24:21.

·       Isaiah agreed with Ezekiel in Isaiah 37:31, 32--Out of Jerusalem, the church, shall go forth a remnant. If Ellen White should deny that, she would have been a false prophet, but she was not! She said that Ezekiel 9 would be literally fulfilled again. End Ron's comment.

"The Lord has not given you a message to call the Seventh-day Adventists Babylon, and to call the people of God to come out of her. All the reasons you may present cannot have weight with me on this subject, because the Lord has given me decided light that is opposed to such a message." (Selected Messages, Vol. 2, p. 63.).

Ron responds: Of course God had not given Stanton and Caldwell a message to call the Seventh-day Adventists, who were THEN, said Ellen White, keeping the commandments of God and heeding the Laodicean Message, Babylon! Of course not! That was the church in 1893! What does that have to do with the church today in 2005. Was she teaching ONCE THE TRUE CHURCH ALWAYS THE TRUE CHURCH? If she was she was the most false of all prophets! The example of the "chosen" Jewish church would prove her wrong. But she did no such thing! Erring foolish virgin surface readers only misinterpret her words and misapply them FOREVER, regardless of what the church does. End Ron's comment.

"I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organized body through whom He will work. ... When anyone is drawing apart from the organized body of God's commandment-keeping people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human scales and begins to pronounce judgment against them, then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track." (Selected Messages, Vol. 3, pp. 17, 18.)

Ron responds: Did God have an organized body through whome He worked when Jesus gathered out those who would take the gospel to the world, and then those disciples gathered out the faithful Jews from A.D. 34 and on? Notice the key, qualifying words: an organized body through whom He will work--an organized body of God's commandment-keeping people. Is it keeping the commandments and the commands of the three angel's messages to re-join Babylon in Association, Concil, Counsel, Girding and confeceracy? Is that obedience to God's commands in Isaiah 8:9-12? Has not the church thus pronounced judgment on itself? What about Isaiah 9:20? If we can member with any church that breaks the commandments of God, then have a free for all. Go to any church you want to go to! Then Isaiah 9:20 is no test at all! Right?! How can you abide by Isaiah 8:20 and not weigh a church by determining whether or not it is keeping the commandments of God? Please tell me! Was Ellen White saying that it is impossible to obey Isaiah 8:20. Don't think so! End Ron's comment. The embolded emphasis in the following statement is mine:

"But we have never had (past tense) a message that the Lord would disorganize the church. We have never had the prophecy concerning Babylon applied to the Seventh-day Adventist church, or been informed (past tense) that the 'loud cry' consisted in calling God's people to come out of her; for this is not God's plan concerning Israel. ... Now can we expect that a message would be true that would designate as Babylon the people for whom God has done so much? Hell would triumph should such a message be received, and the world would be strengthened in iniquity. All the reproaches which Satan has cast upon the character of God, would appear as truth, and the conclusion would be made that God has no chosen or organized church in the world. Oh, what a triumph would this be to Satan and his confederacy of evil!" (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, Oct. 3, 1893.)

Ron's response: Doug Bachelor uses all the quotes the leaders have used since Ellen White’s death to try to convince the members that no matter what the church does, it could never become any part of Babylon and that simply is not true, as evinced by the many statements telling how it could become a part of Babylon.

What I am now going to say is as serious as anything spiritual gets! Ellen White must have meant that it was not God's plan for the loud cry to apply to His true "chosen people." It was not God's plan that ancient Israel should reject the gospel and apostatize. Of course that wasn’t God's plan, His design. But was it reality?! Let's look to God's servant Ezekiel to see if it is reality that the Loud Cry will call folk out of all formally organized churches.

·       First of all, is a church disorganized if God has taken the reins in His own hands and controls His church? Not that I know of!

·       If Ezekiel 9 is literally fulfilled again as Ellen White states, that involves Jerusalem, not Babylon, the other fallen churches.

·       Ellen White referred to the last Ezekiel 9 debacle, A.D. 70, as a PREFIGURE. GC, p. 25. Was a remnant "gathered out" in that PREFIGURE? Desire of Ages, 232. Would an antitypical fulfillment demand that a remnant be gathered out?

·       Does God say in Ezekiel 5:1-4, that indeed a remnant will escape, and then the remaining three-thirds, equalling the whole church will be destroyed?

·       Does the same Ezekiel say in chapter 22:17-31, that the dross (tares) will be gathered into the midsts of Jerusalem for burning and melting? Is that what happened in the PREFIGURE of A.D. 70?

·       Is Ezekiel a false prophet giving a false Loud Cry message, when he says that a remnant escapes, Ezekiel 5:1-3, where a remnant is taken in His skirts.

·       Is Isaiah a false prophet giving a false Loud Cry message when he says that a remnant shall go forth out of Jerusalem? Recall that Ellen White said that each of the ancient prophets wrote more for us than for the Jews. End Ron's comment.

These statements are much too clear to be misunderstood. Although the visible church is in crisis, the solution is not in applying the message for Babylon to it. If we decide that the church is Babylon or has passed the line of its probationary time, then our only message is "Come out of her." If we decide that the church is Laodicea, then our only message is "Repent." Our message will be determined by our view of the church.

Ron's response: How can a church that is the COUNTERPART to apostate Israel, which we are instructed not to pray for, be merely lukewarm Laodicea?

 

COUNTERPART: "The Lord commanded one of his ancient servants, 'Pray not thou for this people [Jer. 7:16 and 11:14], neither lift up cry nor prayer for them neither make intercession to me for I will not hear thee.' The prophet thus describes the sins which had called forth this fearful denunciation: 'The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means and my people love to have it so and what will ye do in the end thereof?' 'From the least of them even unto the greatest of them, every one is given to covetousness and from the prophet even unto the priest, every one dealeth falsely. They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace, when there is no peace.' The apostles declare that this state of things will find its COUNTERPART in the last days. Many have a form of godliness, but in their daily life deny the power thereof. They have ceased to be convicted of their sins or alarmed at their state. They say in their hearts, 'The church is flourishing. Peace and spiritual prosperity are within her borders.' The words of the prophet may well apply to these self-deceivers, 'They have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them." E. G. White, Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 11-07-82.

 

Are we in the last days? Who is the only people who could possibly qualify as a COUNTERPART to Israel when both they and SDA’s refer to themselves as a chosen remnant who keep the commandments of God?

Yes indeed, the statements are too clear to be misunderstood, except by surface readers who have totally misunderstood and applied them according to gross violations as to time, place and circumstance and Scripture! Notice the words: "If we decide that the chruch is Laodicea, then our only message is "Repent." Let's see what Ellen White said about Laodicea: "If the church of God becomes LUKEWARM [LAODICEAN] it does not stand in favor with God any more than do the churches that are represented as having fallen and become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Those who have had opportunities to hear and receive the truth, and who have united with the Seventh-day Adventist church, calling themselves the commandment keeping people of God, and yet possess no more vitality and consecration to God than do the nominal churches, will receive of the plagues of God just as verily as the churches who oppose the law of God." E.G. White, Letter 35, 1898.

Even remaining Laodicean would make the church have no more favor with God than Babylon! What about cold, unpardonable sin apostasy? Is that worse than being lukewarm when that condition is repentable and cold apostasy is not?

The only thing we can conclude from the above statement is that if the church is still in the Laodicean state after so long a time since 1898, the date of the statement, then it is no more in the favor of God than the fallen churches. Who could honestly conclude anything else? Notice: "The state of the Church represented by the foolish virgins, is also spoken of as the Laodicean state." E. G. White, Reveiw and Herald Articles, Vol. 2, 420.

"The Jews had deceived themselves by misinterpreting the words of the Lord through his prophets, of his eternal favor to his people Israel. 'Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; the Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. Thus saith the Lord: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.' Jer. 31:35-37. These words the Jews applied to themselves. And because God had shown them so great favor and mercy, they flattered themselves that, notwithstanding their sins and iniquities, he would still retain them as his favored people, and shower especial blessings upon them. They misapplied the words of Jeremiah and depended for their salvation upon being called the [chosen] children of Abraham. If they had indeed been worthy o the name of Abraham's children, they would have followed the righteous example of their father Abraham, and would have done the works of Abraham. This has been the danger of the people of God in all ages; and especially is this the danger of those living near the close of time. . . . God would in no wise excuse sin in a people who had been enlightened, even if he had, in their days of faithfulness and purity, loved them, and given them especial promises. These promises and blessings were always upon condition of obedience upon their part. The Lord pronounced, by the mouth of Moses, blessings upon the obedient, and curses upon the disobedient." E. G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 1, 123.

Although God's visible church is not functioning as He designed that it should, and although there is much disobedience-both individually and corporately-in God's church, this is the time to look back to Moses and rebellious Israel. "In the example of Moses pleading for the children of Israel, is represented the position that we should take in regard to the people of God, however erring, or weak, or defective they may be." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, Oct. 3, 1893.)

Ron's response: God back and read Ellen White's account of Moses' pleading for the children of Israel in Review and Herald Articles, Vol. 1, p. 129, July 29, 1873, or in Testimonies, Vol. 3, pp. 293-304, to find that Moses had all the apostates killed, "about three thousand men," and then partitioned God to forgive the penitent ones. So in pleading for God's people, remember this example of the shepherd's heart. Moses was a step ahead of the leaders of Amazing Facts. He realized that the penitent could not unite with the corrupt impenitent and remain pure. So he had the impenitent killed off and then supplicated God's mercy on the penitent! How far do you want to carry this example of the shephers's heart?! No matter what you conclude friend, Ellen White prophesied the following conclusion:

"Jesus sends HIS PEOPLE a message of warning to prepare them for his coming. To the prophet John was made known the closing work in the great plan of man's redemption. He beheld an angel flying 'in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his Judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters [Rev. 14:6, 7.].

The angel represented in prophecy as delivering this message,  symbolizes a class of faithful men, who, obedient to the promptings of God's Spirit and the teachings of his word, proclaim this warning to the inhabitants of earth. This message was not to be committed to the religious leaders of the people. They had failed to preserve their connection with God, and had REFUSED THE LIGHT FROM HEAVEN therefore they WERE NOT of the number described by the apostle Paul: 'But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day we are not of the night nor of darkness' [1 Thess. 5:4, 5]. 

The watchmen upon the walls of Zion should be the first to catch the tidings of the Saviour's advent, the first to lift their voices to proclaim him near, the first to warn the people to prepare for his coming. But they were at ease, dreaming of peace and safety, while the people were asleep in their sins. Jesus saw HIS CHURCH, like the barren fig-tree, covered with pretentious leaves, yet destitute of precious fruit. There was a boastful observance of the forms of religion, while the spirit of true humility, penitence and faith--which alone could render the service acceptable to God--was lacking. Instead of the graces of the Spirit, there were manifested pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, oppression. A BACKSLIDING CHURCH closed their eyes to the signs of the times. God did nor forsake them, or suffer his faithfulness to fail but they departed from him, and SEPARATED THEMSELVES from his love. As they REFUSED TO COMPLY WITH THE CONDITIONS, his promises were NOT FULFILLED to them."  E.G. White, The Spirit of Prophecy,  vol. 4, pp. 199-200 [The 1884 edition of The Great Controversy, 199, 200].

 

Note from the above statement:

·       Ellen White is addressing HIS PEOPLE.

·       Ellen White is addressing those to whom was committed the EVERLASTING GOSPEL of Revelation 14.

·       Ellen White is defining the angel represented in prophecy AS DELIVERING THIS MESSAGE--NOT MEN OF BABYLON WHO FAILED TO ACCEPT THAT MESSAGE AS THE 1911 EDITION IMPLIES!

·       Ellen White is implying that the third angel's message is delivered NOT BY THE LEADERS OF THE SDA CHURCH, but by a class of faithful men because the leaders had failed to preserve their connection with God and had refused light from heaven!

·       Ellen White is addressing "watchmen upon the walls of Zion," NOT FALLEN BABYLON!

·       And twice Ellen White mentions HIS CHURCH, NOT FALLEN BABYLON.

Ellen White is addressing a BACKSLIDING CHURCH whose leaders and laity alike who failed and rejected light from heaven and who refused to comply with the conditions so that God's promises are not fulfilled to them.

End Ron's comment.

In pleading for God's people, we will be following in the hallowed line of Jeremiah, Daniel, Jesus, and Ellen White. May God help us to have the shepherd's heart, seeking to heal and restore while the door of probation for the church is still open.

Ron's response: Israel did not know when it probation was closed, and neither does modern-day Israel kinow that its door to probation has closed because of unpardonable sin apostasy.

Daniel knew when the time of Israel's probation was over. He understood God's line in the sand. Amazing Facts does not. Moses understood God's line in the sand. Daniel understood God's line in the sand. God's dumb-dog watchmen ALL CANNOT UNDERSTAND. Isaiah 56:10-12, reapplied in Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211. Jeremiah had great insights into God's line in the sand. Read Jeremiah 11:9-15. He knew when not to pray for an apostate people. Write to Amazing Facts at the following address, and see if they will accept this light and understanding.

If all the bad are shaken out of the professing SDA church, why does Ezekiel 9 begin at His church, His sanctuary? In the last literal fulfillment of Ezekiel 9, A.D. 70, it all began at a literal apostate church that had fallen into apostasy. For it’s future fulfillment to be LITERAL, it will have to be the same way! In the last literal fulfillment of Ezekiel 9, a faithful remnant were gathered out from A.D. 34 to A.D. 66, at which time they fled to Pella and were spared the debacle beginning at His Sanctuary, the apostate Jewish Temple. My warning message to professing Seventh-day Adventists is that you might avoid that slaughter of men, maidens and little children.

"Study the 9th chapter of Ezekiel. These words will be literally fulfilled yet the time is passing, and the people are asleep. They refuse to humble their souls and to be converted. Not a great while longer will the Lord bear with the people who have such great and important truths revealed to them, but who refuse to bring these truths into their individual experience. The time is short. God is calling will YOU hear? Will YOU receive His message? Will YOU be converted before it is too late? Soon, very soon, every case will be decided for eternity. Letter 106, 1909, pp. 2, 3, 5, 7. (To "The churches in Oakland and Berkeley, September 26, 1909.)" E. G. White Manuscript Releases Volume One, p. 260.

 

“The time will soon come when the prophecy of Ezekiel 9 will be fulfilled; that prophecy should be carefully studied, for it will be fulfilled to the very letter.”— Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, p. 1303.

 

The Signs of the Times, February 12, 1880:  “The desolation of Jerusalem stands as a solemn warning before the eyes of modern Israel.” 

“The desolation of Jerusalem in the days of Jeremiah is a solemn warning to modern Israel, that the counsels and admonitions given them through chosen instrumentalities cannot be disregarded with impunity.”  Prophets and Kings, 416.   

 

“In some cases, BEFORE the time specified in the decree, enemies will rush upon the waiting ones to put them to death.”  E.G. White, The 1884 edition of The Great Controversy, p. 447.

 

Begin at My Sanctuary -- "Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus 'Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together." E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211. The chapter begins on p. 207, by quoting Ezekiel 9.

 

There is a good reason why Ezekiel 9 BEGINS at HIS CHURCH—THE LORD’S SANCTUARY.

http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=673&x=19&y=27

God bless all seekers of truth

—rwb