Answers to Walt on Separation Issues— Part 2
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Dear Reader, Walt responded to my answers to him. His
response along with mine to him appears below in this color. I will print Walt’s responses in this color.
I will intersperse my responses under Walt’s in this color. ----- Original Message ---- To: mailto:sdaissues@yahoogroups.com Sent:
Saturday, February 11, 2006 8:23 A.M. Subject: Separation Issues
Hi Ron Are those two parables speaking of the
same? Is not one speaking of the heart
(“the soils”), while the other, though again mentioning the “tares”, is
speaking of something much larger? Though both stories come in the same chapter
13 of Matthew, they are definitely not one representation, for the
first clearly ends at verse 9 with an explanation to the disciples
from 10 to 23. The other
actually does begin in verse 24 with the words: “Another parable put He forth unto them…” Ron responds: Hi Walt.
Thanks for responding to my document.
The thrust of my position is that indeed there is a great difference
between tares and thorns. I go into
more detail on that issue at the following link: https://omega77.tripod.com/DiffWTT.htm I’m quite sure that EGW has spoken of
these passages. Respectfully I must state that though you
have quoted from Christ’s Object Lessons the exact quote does not imply the
church as attached to this parable of the soils, for it reads as presented
below with nothing added: “The thorns that have been cut off but
not uprooted grow apace, until the soul is overspread with them. { In context, the whole reading has to do
with the individual heart, and not with the church
in general. Perhaps this can be checked and cleared. It is important, because in the instance
of the heart the matter of removing the tares is not to be hindered, but is
to be immediate in the individual heart by prayer and confession etc, while
in the other is a work of the Lord that is to alone must do, as it is
obviously revealed through the investigation which is now ongoing in the
heavens, who is true and who is not within the congregation of professed SDA
believers. The first work men are definitely to be
actively engaged in, while the second, they cannot do, and are counselled not to do.
The Lord has His way set and ready. Ron responds: There is a difference between thorns in the
personal experience and thorns in the church.
However, individuals constitute the church and thorns are open sinners
which I will establish shortly, and open sinners in the church corrupt the
church and make it impossible for the wheat to mature. The is the
process, and that is why Christ “gathered out” those who would take the
gospel to the world. That is why Reformationist’s left the Catholic church, and that is
why Adventists left the fallen churches in 1844. According to the SDA Bible Commentary on Matthew
13, which is a most interesting read, it says concerning thorns. The following statement establishes the
fact that thorns teach a false doctrine.
That doctrine has infiltrated the SDA church via Desmond Ford. This is an example of how open sinning
thorns affect the church: “Thorns
sprung up.--The thorns
made it impossible for the wheat to mature (see Luke 8:14). In the same way secular
interest prevent the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22, 23) from reaching
maturity. Religion is relegated to the subordinate position of being only one
interest among many. For lack of cultivation it withers and eventually dies.
That which the thorny-ground hearers lack is a moral transformation (COL 50).
To them, justification is the sum
and substance of religion, and they fail to realize that the
Christian life consists essentially in the process known as sanctification--the
process by which evil traits and tendencies are replaced by the perfect
life-pattern of Jesus Christ. SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 5, p. 405. “They make what appears to be a real
start, and apparently they experience justification and the new birth. But
they soon become 'weary in well doing' (Gal. 6:9), and do not 'go on unto perfection' (Heb. 6:1). Absorbed by the pleasures of this world and
in the pursuit of its attractions, they neglect to weed out from the life
those tendencies and traits of character that
respond to temptation. They are like the person who had been freed
from demon possession only to be repossessed by seven evil spirits (see on
Matt. 12:43-45). Many of the things that attract the thorny-ground hearers
and absorb their attention may not, in and of themselves, be harmful. But
such persons become so absorbed in this world that they have no time to
prepare for the next.” SDA Bible
Commentary, Vol. 5, p. 405. · They become absorbed by the pleasures of
this world and pursue its attractions. · The direct implication is that they yield
to temptation and are thus open sinners. · “Thorns
sprung up.--The thorns
made it impossible for the wheat to mature (see Luke 8:14). In the same way secular
interest prevent the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22, 23) from reaching
maturity. Religion is relegated to the subordinate position of being only one
interest among many. For lack of cultivation it withers and eventually dies.
That which the thorny-ground hearers lack is a moral transformation (COL 50).
To them, justification is the sum
and substance of religion, and they fail to realize that the
Christian life consists essentially in the process known as sanctification--the
process by which evil traits and tendencies are replaced by the perfect
life-pattern of Jesus Christ. SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 5, p. 405. · The thorns believe and teach a false
gospel. · They teach that justification is the sum
and substance of religion--that sanctification is not meritorious toward our
salvation--the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans. · They thus teach like the fallen churches
that we left in 1844. · To return to such errors is tantamount to
returning to the iniquities of our forefathers, Jeremiah 11:9-15, and verses
14 and 15 depict God’s line in the sand. · What did true Israelites do at that
time? They separated: "The recreant priests added
licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes yet they still polluted
by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to
come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of · As we see from the above statement, even
before · Desmond Ford introduced that thorny
doctrine into the SDA church--that justification
is the sum and substance of religion.
Has that doctrine wreaked havoc in the church causing unprecedented
division? Has it wreaked disaster to the church? Is it part of the Omega of
Apostasy? I say an emphatic yes! · That evil doctrine of the Nicolaitans
denigrates the work and office of the personality of Christ’s Holy
Spirit--His very life and soul as manifested in and through the Christian,
making sanctification meritorious because it is one of His free grace gifts
to the church. · That is a classic example as to how the
open sinning thorns corrupt the church and Ellen White says that it is
impossible to unite with the corrupt and remain pure. · As stated, the doctrine that
justification is the sum and substance of religion is the error of our
forefathers in the fallen churches. Walt, though it is very true that Ellen
White applies the thorn principle to individuals, it is just as true that it
is individual persons who comprise the church! If individuals who become thorns are
permitted to grow in the church, they corrupt and choke the wheat. Thorns, open sinning INDIVIDUALS, if you
prefer, are to be separated from the church if they will not reform. I will
deal with it on an individual basisif that is your
wish. But the principle and end-conclusion will be the same. Individual OPEN
SINNING THORNS are to be separated from the church. “Christ has plainly taught that those who
persist in open sin must be separated from the Church.” Christ's Object
Lessons, 71. If a church will not separate open
sinners who will not reform, then the only alternative is the one Christ
Himself took--separation from those who will not separate open sin from the
church. “The thorns that have been cut off but
not uprooted grow apace, until the soul is overspread with them,” said Ellen
White. This is a principle Walt, whether involving an individual or the
church. It is because of this very principle that any separation in Scripture
has ever taken place. Thorns choke the
wheat! It is the duty of the church to maintain
pure doctrine and to
separated open sinners. Thorns are obviously open sinners who
choke the wheat. Tares do not! They
co-exist with the wheat until probation closes. Luk 8:7 “And some fell among thorns; and the
thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.” Thorns sprung up.--The thorns made it
impossible for the wheat to mature.
(Luke 8:4-7). In the same way, secular interests often
prevent the fruits of the Spirit from reaching maturity. (Gal. 5:22, 23). Thorns are OPEN SINNERS. Tares are not
OPEN SINNERS. They are insincere types whose motives we would have to judge
in order to expel or pull them up from the wheat.
You sent along: “"Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open
sin must be separated from the church..." Christ's Object Lessons,
71. Where did Christ plainly teach that those who persist in open sin
must be separated from the church?” Ron responds: I plainly stated where
Christ taught that open sinners should be separated from the church. I asked
the question and then gave this answer? “It is impossible for you to unite
with those who are corrupt, and still remain pure. (II Corinthians 6:14, 15 quoted). God and Christ and the
heavenly host would have men know that if he unites with the corrupt he will
become corrupt. E.G. White,Review
and Herald, Vol. 4, p. 137. 2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked
together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with
unrighteousness? and
what communion hath light with darkness? 2Cr 6:1 2Cr 6:15 And what concord hath
Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that
believeth with an infidel? Also, in Rev.14:6 and on, the second
angel's call out of Babylon is a call to separate from sin and sinners and
those who teach a false gospel of justification only as being meritorious of
salvation! That same chapter 4 of which page “71” is
a part gives a very detailed and contextual explanation of what Christ is
teaching in the parable, and it is therein that He does teach as to the above
question. You send along again: “Tell me Walt, how are sinners removed from the church when the
leaders will NEVER AGAIN show them their sins?
And you who think that the church will be reformed and purged of its sinners
to leave it the purified SDA Church triumphant, how will that occur since the
people rise no higher than their leaders? Also, the chapter containing
the above Ellen White statement, begins quoting
Ezekiel 9. Why does the slaughter of men, maidens and little children
begin at His Sanctuary, those who have been privileged with great light, if
that church is purged and purified of its sinners? That personal
opinion theory of professing Seventh-day Adventists is not according to the
PREFIGURE we will study later in this document.” Even from the reading of chapter 4 of COL., it is clear that the
sinners who do not just naturally leave as by the “shaking,” will the Lord
sent forth His angels and directly remove. Ron responds: Again, Walt,
if God removes the sinners why does Ezekiel 9 BEGIN AT HIS SANCTUARY? Though most of the people in general tend to go no further
(“higher”), than their leadership, it is they (the leaders), that are removed
first, and then to have “a church without spot or stain”, and
completely the Church Triumphant that is ready to conquer the world. See Mat. 13:43 as He states “Then”. So to repeat for the purpose of sterling clarification, it is the
exact event prefigured in the parable beginning of mention in Mat. 13:24,
of which also is specified in Ezk. 9,
and of which EGW speaks, that is to create the condition of a pure house –
Church. Before the instance, tare and wheat (true and false professor in
all), shall grow together, and there is to be no complete separation. This is so, even though
many may previous to this time feel that they cannot because of the condition
of the institution, stay or consider themselves as part of that
institution. It is God that has
spoken, and who can annul? Ron responds: The
following points are critical to realizing who is shaken from whom: · It is God who has spoken in Ezekiel 9,
and He says that the slaughter will begin AT HIS SANCTUARY. Were that Sanctuary purged and purified as
you believe Walt, there would be no need to begin a slaughter at His
Sanctuary. · Also, Ezekiel 22:17-31 tells precisely
where the tares (dross) is gathered for burning and
melting. · Ellen White agrees with Ezekiel by saying
that the world and the church is the field, and tares are burned in the
field, not God’s garner (barn). “’The
field,’ Christ said, ‘is the world.’ But we must understand this as
signifying the · In what Ellen White called a PREFIGURE, the
destruction of · Ezekiel 9 involved · The next fulfillment will involve spiritual · Ezekiel 9 seals only those who are sighing and
crying for the abominations of the church. · Any church that was purged and purified BY ANY
MEANS—natural or supernatural, would not experience
another literal manifestation of Ezekiel 9. · When Ellen White warned of another
LITERAL FULFILLMENT of Ezekiel 9, she was warning Seventh-day
Adventists: · "Study
the 9th chapter of Ezekiel. These words will be literally fulfilled yet the
time is passing, and the people are asleep. They refuse to humble their souls
and to be converted. Not a great while longer will the Lord bear with the
people who have such great and important truths revealed to them, but who
refuse to bring these truths into their individual experience. The time is
short. God is calling will YOU hear? Will YOU receive His message? Will YOU
be converted before it is too late? Soon, very soon, every case will be
decided for eternity. Letter 106, 1909, pp. 2, 3, 5, 7. (To "The churches in Oakland and Berkeley, September
26, 1909.)" E. G. White Manuscript Releases Volume One, p. 260. · Any church
that was purged and purified by any means—natural or supernatural, would not bring
every uncouth thing into its camp-meetings “JUST BEFORE PROBATION CLOSES. · There is no
disagreementfrom me that the tares dwell with the wheat
until the close of probation. They are not serious hindrances to the maturing
wheat.The thorns make such IMPOSSIBLE.That
is a huge difference. · Ezekiel
20:34-38, describes the church triumphant and that it is from and by the SDA
church triumphant in the wilderness at the end-time that the rebels are
purged. “"Christ was a protestant...The Reformers date back to
Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a religion
of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the reformed
religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the
apostles." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 48, col. 2.“ The above that you have supplied, is an interesting reference,
and at this time I shall go to see what is originally written. Though there is interesting mention of “ “Christ was
a protestant. He protested against the formal worship of the Jewish nation,
who rejected the counsel of God against themselves. He told them that they
taught for doctrines the commandments of men, and that they were pretenders
and hypocrites. Like whited sepulchers they were
beautiful without, but within full of impurity and corruption. The Reformers
date back to Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves
from a religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not
invent the reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ
and the apostles. The Bible is presented to us as a sufficient guide; but the
pope and his workers remove it from the people as if it were a curse, because
it exposes their pretensions and rebukes their idolatry. {RH, June 1, 1886 par. 14} That a comparison is made between Christ and the apostles and
Luther and his followers is clearly seen, and is not all that is said on the
subject. See below: “As the
light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the
days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeeding
generation. Again and again the history of Christ's withdrawal from True enough, it would undoubtedly by the evidence seem to be time
to separate, yet must we not have clear communication and
command (by the prophets), to do so, since this SDA organization was
directly called into being by the Lord and is the seventh and last? Does it not also fit into the concept of
every Divine institution needing to be restored before the Lord’s return? Ron responds: There is a clear communication and command by the
biblical prophets when to separate: · Ezekiel
5:1-3 · Ezekiel 9—and the PREFIGURE of A.D. 70. · In A.D. 66, the Jews obeyed the same
command that we must obey—Matt. 24:14, 25. Ellen White said this entire
chapter is applicable at the end-time: · "When He referred to the destruction
of Jerusalem, His prophetic words
reached beyond that even to the final conflagration in that day when the Lord
shall rise out of His place to punish the world for their iniquity, when the
earth shall disclose her blood , and shall no more cover her slain. This entire discorse
was given, not for the disciples only, but for those who should live in the
last scenes of this earth's history. E.G. White, Desire of Ages, p. 628. · Matthew 24:15 was followed in A.D. 70 and
will apply again at the end-time. · Ezekiel 22:17-31. · Jeremiah
11:9-15 · Isaiah 37:32, 32. · Isaiah 4:1-4, where at the end-time, all formally
organized churches symbolized by SEVEN WOMEN are doing their own thing. · In fact, Ezekiel chapters 1-22. · Scripture’s command to accurse any who
come with another gospel. One cannot
join those who admix truth with another false
gospel. New Movement Adventist teaches
a New Theology false gospel of justification only. · In her Seal of God chapter of
Testimonies, Vol. 5, 209, which is dealing with Ezekiel 9 and begins on page
207, by quoting Ezekiel 9, Ellen White says on page 209: · "The leaven if godliness has not entirely lost its
power. At the time when the danger and depression of the church are greatest,
the little company who are standing in the light will be sighing and crying
for the abominations that are done in the land. But MORE ESPECIALLY will their prayers arise in behalf
of the church because ITS MEMBERS are doing after the manner of the world.
Testimonies, vol. 5, 209, 210. Here (above) is depicted a little company separate from the
church who evidently are not members because the members are doing after the
manner of the world. And this is at the time when the danger of the church is
greatest—the time of trouble! Matthew 24:21. Ellen White thus spoke to those
with spiritual discernment to see what she meant. “In the
time of the end every divine institution is to be restored. The breach made in the law at the time
the Sabbath was changed by man, is to be repaired. God's remnant people,
standing before the world as reformers, are to show that the law of God is
the foundation of all enduring reform and that the Sabbath of the fourth
commandment is to stand as a memorial of creation, a constant reminder of the
power of God. In clear, distinct lines they are to present the necessity of
obedience to all the precepts of the Decalogue. Constrained by the love of
Christ, they are to co-operate with Him in building up the waste places.
They are to be repairers of the breach, restorers of paths
to dwell in. See verse 12. {PK
678.2}” Ron responds: "The Lord Jesus will
always have a chosen people to serve Him. When the Jewish people rejected
Christ, the Prince of life. He took from them the God is not 'worshipped with men's hands, as tough he needed any thing' (Acts 17:25). E. G. White,
The Upward Look, 131. The fallen Protestant churches were once a Divine institution,
but they will not be restored. The
faithful will leave all fallen churches.
Isaiah 4:1-4, says that SEVEN WOMEN, symbolic of ALL formally
organized churches will be eating their own bread (their own doctrines and
commandments of men) and wearing their own apparel (their own robes of
self-righteousness). They will not be
restored. However, a faithful remnant
will come out of ALL of them, including professing Seventh-day Adventism,
because that church is part and parcel of the SEVEN WOMEN. Ron responds: No doubt about that Walt!
God will restore His church, just like He restored it in the PREFIGURE of
A.D. 27 thru A.D. 70, by gathering out to the wilderness (Ezk.
20:34-38, a purified people, a small true remnant from within the called
remnant. But will the SDA church militant repair the breach mans has made in
the Sabbath? Let’s let
Ezekiel answer first and then Ellen White: Ezekiel 8 tells us why
Ezekiel 9 is manifested: Eze 8:16 And he brought me into the inner
court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the
LORD, between the porch and the altar, [were] about five and twenty men, with
their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east;
and they worshipped the sun toward the east. SDA Leaders will worship SUNday and advocate that the members keep it
sacred. Is that restoring the Sabbath—the breach in God’s law? Now let’s see if Ellen White agrees with
Ezekiel 8:16: “The Lord has a controversy with his professed people in these
last days. In this controversy men
in responsible positions will take a course directly opposite to that
pursued by Nehemiah. They will not only ignore and despise the Sabbath
themselves, but they will try to keep it from others by burying it beneath
the rubbish of custom and tradition. In churches and in large gatherings in the
open air, ministers, will urge upon the people the necessity of keeping the
first day of the week. E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 1, p. 405, col. 3. · The controversy is with His professed
people. · Leaders in responsible positions. · They have already taken a course directly
opposite to that pursued by Nehemiah.
He would not go down and ASSOCIATE, COUNSEL, GIRD AND CONFEDERATE with
the enemy. He would not even dialog with them. SDA leaders have! · The last time I attended an SDA campmeeting in 1988, here in · Interesting! Ellen White agrees with Ezekiel 8, and for
those who do not believe in Ellen White, you
had better believe Ezekiel chapter 8 that the leaders will bow to Sunday
sacredness when the crunch comes! That is: everything instituted (given to men on earth), by God,
is to be returned and restored to its proper place, “before the world” –
while there are yet sinners existing on the earth, in probationary time. Yet there are more direct quotes from EGW,
that have to do with the subject of church purification, and perhaps we’ll
get to some of those later. Ron responds: What you
state above is one of the most colossal errors of the Shepherd’s Rod
organization of which you are a member.
Christ will not touch down on this earth until after the millennium.
We are caught up in the air to meet Him.
Satan will roam this earth for the thousand year millennium and then
the earth will be purged with fire.
The Shepherd’s Rod has misinterpreted prophecies that were conditional
to the Jews. To note however, it is clear to all that take even a little time
to study and know, it is easy to show that the Church (SDA. leadership), is
not following in the way specified by the Lord, through His prophets. It would seem without a doubt by that which
you have presented and more, as time to get out and not attend the
churches. The thing that comes to mind
though, at this instance is that she has stated, that: “Satan will
work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The
church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It
remains, while the sinners in Ron responds: Walt, you have made the same grave mistake
the Laodicean church has made in misinterpreting
the above statement about the church that appears to fall. The church militant applies the statement
to itself, but we shall see as clear as crystal that the statement applies to
The Great
Controversy, p. 616: THE REAL CHURCH THAT APPEARS AS ABOUT TO FALL PARALLED
WITH JACOB AND HIS ARMY GOING TO MEET ESAU: "The people of God will then be plunged into those scenes of
affliction and distress described by the prophet as the time of Jacob's
trouble.... "...Jacob had fled for his life, alarmed by his brother's
deadly threats....Jacob's company, unarmed and defenseless, SEEMED ABOUT TO FALL helpless victims
of violence and slaughter." The Great Controversy, 616, 1911 Edition. The faithful will be surrounded in the solitary retreats to which
they have fled. There will appear to be no way of escape. This is when the church triumphant
"appears" as about to fall, just as Jacob appeared to be about to
fall before his enemies. See Great Controversy, 626, and 635. The church militant has misapplied this "appearing as about
to fall" statement, as to itself. Clearly, that is a lie, as Ezekiel
22:28, says they would divine lies. So let’s look at your quoting of the statement a little closer
Walt: The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall.
It remains, while the
sinners in ·
Sinners in ·
·
·
Heavenly ·
·
The rebels (bad) are shaken out of ·
Matthew 13:47-49 says the same thing. · The angel’s who
do the separating are the Third Angels: "I was shown that the THIRD ANGEL, proclaiming the
commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, represents the PEOPLE who receive this message and raise the
voice in warning to the world." Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, 77. · "I was shown that the THIRD ANGEL,
proclaiming the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, represents the
PEOPLE who receive this message and raise the voice in warning to the
world." Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, 77. · "I then saw the THIRD ANGEL.
Said my accompanying angel, 'Fearful is his work. Awful is his mission. He is the angel that is to select the
wheat from the tares, and seal, or bind, the wheat for the heavenly garner."
E.G. White, Early Writings, 118. · "The angel represented in
prophecy as delivering this message, symbolizes a class of faithful men, who
obedient to the promptings of God's Spirit and the teachings of his word,
proclaim this warning to the inhabitants of earth. This mesage
WAS NOT to be committed to the religious leaders of the people." E.. White, The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4, 199, 200. I fully believe ALL Ellen White’s
statements as to how the church is to be purified. Bring them all to the fore. I will be happy
to put them all in their proper prospective—the prospective of Ezekiel
20:34-38. Don’t make the great mistake of confusing
the SDA church militant with the SDA church triumphant. If the SDA church militant were purged and
purified, the Ezekiel 9 debacle of men, maidens, and little children
perishing, would not begin at that that Sanctuary AT ANY END TIME
APPLICATION! Ron responds: Walt, I have deeply done my homework
and the Lord told me that no one would ever gainsay my position.Your quote above, concerning the church that appears as about to fall, will proved a classic
example of what I am saying.Very few Seventh-day Adventists, except a few I have taught, understand the full context
of the statement. But let’s notice once again the
qualifying KEY things in the statement: · Sinners in are sifted out by · · · · · The people of the church are the guests. Ibid. · · · The rebels are shaken out of her by her Loud Cry
shaking message, Ezekiel 20: 34-38. · Ellen White says that it is the church triumphant that
appears as about to fall in the time of Jacob’s trouble, but she is
delivered. It is the Church Triumphant
that is delivered! Just like I said Walt, the context of the statement
refers to the SDA Church Triumphant during Jacob’s time of trouble!This is astounding
evidence hat has been entire overlooked by sleepy, indolent
SDA Laodiceans. It is the church TRIUMPHANT that appears as bout to fall in the time of Jacob’s trouble when it is surrounded by
enemies on all sides out in the wilderness just before Christ comes! That statement has NOTHING to do with the purging and purifying of the SDA church militant that will receive
another LITERAL FULFILLMENT of Ezekiel 9. The faithful will be surrounded in the solitary retreats to which they have fled. There will appear to be no way of
escape. This is when the church
triumphant appears as about to fall, just as Jacob appeared to be about to
fall before his enemies. See Great
Controversy, 626, and 635. Study the 9th chapter of Ezekiel. These words will
be literally fulfilled yet the time is passing, and the people are asleep.
They refuse to humble their souls and to be converted. Not a
great while longer will the Lord bear with the people who have such great and important truths revealed to them, but who refuse
to bring these truths into their individual experience. The time is short.
God is calling will YOU hear? Will YOU receive His
message? Will YOU be converted before it is too
late? Soon, very soon, every case will be decided for eternity. Letter 106, 1909, pp. 2, 3, 5, 7. (To The churches in Oakland and
Berkeley, September 26, 1909.) E.
G. White Manuscript Releases, Volume One, p. 260. Adventist’s hate the above statement because the Shepherd’s Rod people teach the truth about Ezekiel 9. But should we throw the truth out because
some teach truth with error? Can we dispense with Ellen
White’s statement because the Shepherd’s Rod teaches some errors associated
with Ellen White’s statement? That
would be insane. In our reasoning we must be able to hold all these various quotes
together, and not at anytime forget any, while we continue to reason. The point of the message that is given to
the true children of God in the midst, is “hold on
and wait just a little while”. So as you have sent what is directly displayed below: “Also tell me and my wealthy friend why, if the church is purged
and purified, that every uncouth thing will be coming into its campmeetings JUST BEFGORE PROBATION CLOSES—a little late
for reformation then! Ron responds: My wealthy
friend (I will refer to him henceforth
as Mr. X), has read your response and agrees with me that Ellen White is
referring to the close of general probation for no individual is mentioned in
the statement. I believe it is all too
clear that she is referring to the general close of probation and not some
prior close of probation for any individual or individuals. My friend said he felt you were really
straining at the knat on that one, as do I as
well. He is a very honest as well as a
very intelligent man and he wants a clear refutation, not just wild
interpolations. His intelligence
gained him his great wealth. He wants
clear cut refutations that leave no room for supposition. "The things you have described as taking place in The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a
bedlam of noise. This is an invention of Satan to cover up his ingenious
methods for making of none effect the pure, sincere,
elevating, ennobling, sanctifying truth for this time. Better never have the
worship of God blended with music, than to use musical instruments to do the
work which last January was represented to me would be brought into our campmeetings. The truth for this time needs nothing of
this kind in its work of converting souls. A bedlam of noise shocks the
senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The
powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise, to have a carnival,
and this is termed the Holy Spirit's working." E. G. White, Selected Messages, Vol. 2, 36.” The term “probation” is to be reconsidered to solve this. Does probation close for all at the same
time? Ron responds: Walt, Ellen
White is not speaking of any individuals close of
probation. She is clearly speaking of
the general close of probation. Walt,
you are clearly “stretching” on this one! “Brother P, you
ask if you have committed the sin which has no forgiveness in this
life or in the life to come. I answer: I do not see the slightest
evidence that this is the case. What constitutes the sin against the Holy
Ghost? It is willfully attributing to Satan the work of the Holy Spirit.
For example, suppose that one is a witness of the special work of the Spirit
of God. He has convincing evidence that the work is in harmony with the
Scriptures, and the Spirit witnesses with his spirit that it is of God.
Afterward, however, he falls under temptation; pride, self-sufficiency, or
some other evil trait, controls him; and rejecting all the evidence of its
divine character, he declares that that which he had before acknowledged to
be the power of the Holy Spirit was the power of Satan. It is through the
medium of His Spirit that God works upon the human heart; and when men
willfully reject the Spirit and declare it to be from Satan, they cut off the
channel by which God can communicate with them. By denying the evidence which
God has been pleased to give them, they shut out the light which had been
shining in their hearts, and as the result they are left in darkness. Thus
the words of Christ are verified: "If therefore the light that is in
thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" For a time,
persons who have committed this sin may appear to be children of God;
but when circumstances arise to develop character and show what manner of
spirit they are of, it will be found that they are on the enemy's ground,
standing under his black banner.
{5T 634.1}” It might be asked of the above example, when did such a one’s
“probation” come to an end? Could she
be referring to the close of probation for the “For the time is come that
judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin
at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of
God?” 1 Pet. 4:17. Ron’s response: Begin at My
Sanctuary –“Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the
first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not
look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's
power as in former days.
Times have changed. These words
strengthen their unbelief,
and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither
will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus
'Peace and safety is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's
people their transgressions and the
house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that
would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together. E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211.
Ellen White called A. D.70 a
PREFIGURE. The chapter from which the
above statement is taken deals with Ezekiel 9 in context—it begins by quoting
Ezekiel 9. Then she says that Ezekiel 9 will be literally repeated. Ezekiel 9 is dealing with “One thing it
is certain is soon to be
realized, the great apostasy, which is developing and increasing and
waxing stronger, and will continue to do so until the Lord shall descend from
heaven with a shout. We are to hold fast the first principles of our
denominated faith, and go forward from strength to increased faith. Ever we
are to keep the faith that has been substantiated by the Holy Spirit of God
from the earlier events of our experience until the present time. We need now
larger breadth, and deeper, more earnest, unwavering faith in the leadings of
the Holy Spirit. If we needed the manifest proof of the Holy Spirit's power
to confirm truth in the beginning, after the passing of the time, we need
to-day all the evidence in the confirmation of the truth, when souls are
departing from the faith and giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of
devils. There must not be any languishing of soul now. (E.G. White, Special
Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 57). The entire context of the above
statement is in regard to the Alpha and Omega of Apostasy in thechurch. Check it out! In any instance,
these things are taking place in the churches now, and reverence within the
sanctuary is not as pronounced as it even used to be, so we shall no doubt,
soon know for certain, one way or the other. In regards to the Church, she states: “The
abominations for which the faithful ones were sighing and crying were all
that could be discerned by finite eyes, but by far the worst
sins, those which provoked the jealousy of the pure and holy God, were unrevealed.
The great Searcher of hearts knoweth every sin
committed in secret by the workers of iniquity. These persons come to feel
secure in their deceptions and, because of His long-suffering, say that the
Lord 212 seeth not, and then act as though He had
forsaken the earth. But He will detect their hypocrisy and will open before
others those sins which they were so careful to hide. {5T 211.3}” Interesting verses used, on which volumes can be written. The case though is not to be so scattered
of understanding but is definitely conclusively explained within the parables
of Mat. 13:24-32, 37-43, 47-50; Luke 14:15-24; Rev. 3:14-16, 7:1-8; Joshua
7:11-13; COL. chap. 4; 2SM 69; 2SM 380.2; TM. 45, 46; T5. 80-82, 209-212;
1MR. 260:2; LDE. 50, 51; 12MR 327.1; Luke 17:32-37 in context of Mat.
24:28 and very easy to understand, along with Mal. 3:1-6; Isa. 56:9-11, 65:9-15, 66:2-21 of the which is
conclusively summed in Ezk. 9. Ron responds: I would be
glad to study these specific verses further with you if you wish. They do not disprove anything I teach. Yet as you send: “Does Scripture say that the Bride of Christ is
always awake?” Ron’s response: Scripture
says that the bride does not rest day nor night—Isaiah 62:6. I would have to ask along with it: Is the Church ever called the
“Bride of Christ” until it is pure, holy and undefiled? Does not the judgement
(the investigative in all), make the “Bride”? Ron responds: Scripture
does not fault "The members of the--the church in heaven--will be permitted
to draw near to the members of the church militant, to aid them in their
necessity." E. G. White, The Southern Watchman, Sep. 8, 1903. The church in heaven is And again: “Does the Bible say that the bride has sons and daughters and
that she will say something to her daughter?” Ron responds: Yes, Isaiah
62:1-11. And Ellen White says: "The people of God, symbolized by a holy
woman and her children, were represented as greatly in the minority. In the
last days only a remnant still existed. Of these John speaks as they 'which
keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
E. G. White, Signs of the Times, Nov. 1, 1899, and Seventh-day
Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 7, p. 972. The terms in the Bible as “bride”, “Jerusalem”, “Israel”, “Zion”,
though they can be, are not necessarily always instantly
interchangeable. Care needs to be
exercised in this regard so as to gain the exact and conclusively provable
truth. Ron responds: I believe I
have given great care to properly identifying the Bible players, Walt, I realize that the entire church is at time referred to as the
bride, but I also realize that it is important to know the distinctions that
the Holy Spirit makes between the bride and the guests. Ellen White and Scripture make clear
distinctions between the bride and the guests. Here are some of the more
provocative statements: · The bride is · The bride says something to her daughter in Isauah
62:11. · Here is what she says and I interpret
this as another version of the final Loud Cry message that awakens the 10
virgins: “Behold, the Lord hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye
to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is
with him, and his work before him. · Compare the above with this awakening
call to the 10 virgins by the voice of God and the bride: “And at midnight
[the end of the world] there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh;
go ye out to meet him.” Matt. 25:6. · All the virgins slept. Matt. 25:5. · All ten are awakened by the bridegroom
and the bride. · God awakens the bride before she and He
awaken the guests. “Lingering near
[not at] the bride's house are ten young women robed in white. Each carries a
lighted lamp and a small flagon for oil. All are anxiously watching for the appearance
of the bridegroom. But there is a delay [since 1844]. Hour after hour passes
the watchers become weary and fall asleep. At midnight the cry is heard,
'Behold, the bridegroom
cometh go ye out to meet him.' The sleepers [all ten slept
Matt. 25:5], suddenly awaking, spring to their feet. They see the procession
moving on, bright with torches and glad with music. They hear the voice of
the bridegroom and the voice of the bride. The ten maidens seize their lamps
and begin to trim them, in haste to go forth, But
five have neglected to fill their flasks with oil [Holy Spirit character].
They did not anticipate so long a delay, and they have not prepared for the
emergence. E. G. White, Christ's Object Lessons, pp. 405, 406. · What procession? The procession of the
bride, · Only the 144,000 go into the · Rev. 3:10-12 says they · Pillars symbolize leaders. · The bride is the lesser priests such as
the earthly Sanctuary had, and Christ is the high priest. · Ellen White says that if the bride, she
cannot be the guests and vice versa, GC, 426-7. · EllenWhite likened the bride unto a holy women and her children. · Ellen White describes three different
groups in heaven: “Nearest the throne are those
who were once zealous in the cause of Satan, but who, plucked as brands from
the burning, have followed their Saviour
with deep, intense devotion. Next
are those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and
infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world
declared it void, and the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith. And beyond
is the great multitude,
which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds,
and people, and
tongues, . . . before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed
with white robes, and palms in their hands. Revelation 7:9. Their warfare is
ended, their victory won. They have run the race and reached the prize. The
palm branch in their hands is a symbol of their triumph, the white robe an
emblem of the spotless righteousness of Christ which is now theirs.” E.G. White, The Great Controversy, p. 665. · Would you suspect it to be reasonable
that nearest the throne is Christ’s bride? His disciples and the 144,000? · Next will be all who have been martyred
for the cause. · Next is the great multitude. [It is interesting to note that the exact word “bride” in
relation to it being the Church, is mentioned in the Bible only about 3 times.] And another in reference to Isa.
62: “Verse 11 (above) is actually another version of the Loud Cry
message to the 10 virgins.” True. Though in character
the 144,000 and “the Bride” may be seen as relative equivalents as character
goes, the term is more inclusive and entails the totality of the saints. Once again the evidence in
favor to the home church scenario would be considered conclusive if not
for the others that state otherwise and that cannot be set aside. Ron’s response: Let’s explore what you consider the
“others” that state otherwise. I will be willing to spend any amount of time entertaining
all others [statements] and put their conditionality in the proper
perspective for you and others. Then
you can accept or reject as your pleasure is. Certainly it is an important consideration when especially
raising children, and wanting them to know the truth and not be influenced by
the various corrupt practises
that take place in the churches. Yet we must in all only set ourselves to
determine what is the truth for the time, and go
with that, leaving the rest to the Lord. Ron responds: Walt, the ancient Jews had similar concerns, long
before the probation for “The recreant priests
added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden
with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As
the men of In the time of the Alpha of Apostasy,
Ellen White advocated a similar course: "There is a little hope in one direction: Take the young men
and women, and place them where they will come as little in contact with our
churches as possible, that the low grade of piety which is current in this
day shall not leaven their ideas of what it means to be a Christian."
E.G. White, Manuscript Release #995, p. 5. When the young men and women were kept away from the Alpha of
apostasy in the church, what did they do where did they meet for worship? "Brother and sister Haskell have rented a house in one of
the best parts of the city, and have gathered round them a family of helpers,
who day by day go out giving Bible readings, selling our papers, and doing
medical missionary work. During the hour of worship, the workers relate their
experiences. Bible studies are regularly conducted in the home, and THE YOUNG
MEN AND YOUNG WOMEN connected with the mission receive a practical, thorough
training in holding Bible readings and in selling our publications. The Lord
has blessed their labors, a number have embraced the truth, and many others
are deeply interested." Review and Herald, September 7, 1905,
Evangelism, p. 108. The above scenario is the prescribed mode for the worship service
of every Seventh-day Adventist church in Testimonies, vol. 7, pp. Notice: "There are times when it is fitting for our ministers
to give on the Sabbath, in our churches, short discourses, full
of the life and love of Christ. But the church members are not to expect a
sermon every Sabbath....Let the church members, during the week, act their
part faithfully, and on the Sabbath relate their experience. The meeting will
then be as meat in due season, bringing to all present new life and fresh vigor.. When God's people see the great need of working as
Christ worked for the conversion of sinners, the testimonies borne by them in
the Sabbath service will be filled with power. With joy the will tell of the
precious experience they have gained in working for others."
Testimonies, vol. 7, p. 19. How many SDA churches follow the above plan? While it may be my natural inclination to get away from
the whole, the truth is stated that we are not to be as the “monks”, and were
it not that God had some true ones
in the Church, we should know well that it would (without the natural,
preserving salt), fall. Ron responds: · Were Christ, His disciples, and all that they
“gathered out” of the apostate Jewish church “MONKS?” · Are there not “TRUE
and FAITHFUL ONES” IN EVERY CHURCH IN THE LAND? · Can we join any apostate church because there are
“true ones” in them all? · Were Adventists circa 1844 “MONKS?” · Were
the faithful Reformers who have
separated from the churches of their fathers in every
succeeding generation since Christ, “MONKS?” Desire of Ages, 232? Who therefore is it in Ezk. 9 that while being in the “midst”
“sigh and cry”, if all the good ones are out?
Who is it that is left give the message of Isa.
8:12; 58:1 and Hosea 2:1-3. Ron’s response: A number of
considerations provide the answer to your question Walt: · Where did Christ, His disciples, and
their followers sigh and cry for all the abominations of the apostate church? · How do we give the message to · Who gave the truth to the Jews when Jesus
“gathered out” those who would take the gospel to the world? Desire of Ages,
232. · Were the disciples of Christ and all their
collective followers sealed in the apostate · Where were the disciples when they all
came into unity and received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of
Pentecost? · Were they at the apostate · Or we they hiding from the apostate Jews,
in the upper room of some man’s house? · Where will the faithful in ALL CHURCHES be sealed
at the end-time by the man with the writer’s inkhorn (Ezekiel 9)? · Will it be in the apostate Babylonian
churches, or when they heed the Loud Cry and come out of those fallen
churches? · In the Omega of Apostasy, the New
Movement Adventists are described by Ellen White as “removing God.” 1SM
204-5. Is one sealed in a church that has removed God? · Is a church that has removed God, even a valid
church when Ellen White said that only Christ’s presence can constitute a
church? "God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it
the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is
the people who love God and keep His commandments. 'Where two or three are
gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them' (Matt. 18:20).
Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and
Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone
constitute a church. Where two or three are present who love and obey
the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate
place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison
walls." E.G. White, The Upward Look, 315. · In thePREFIGURE of A.D. 27-70, were all the true
Christians “gathered out” and sealed at and by True Jerusalem,
the · Were there TWO · “The angel with the writer’s ink horn is
to place a mark upon the foreheads OF ALL WHO ARE SEPARATED FROM SIN AND
SINNERS, and the destroying angel follows this angel.” E.G. White, Letter 12,
1886). SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 7a, p. 1161. · Did you know that the angel marks ONLY
those who are separated from sin and sinners? Does this lift a flag to everything
you have been saying? · Those who are separated from sin and
sinners receive the mark (seal) of the Man in Linen. They are not sealed at
an apostate church full of omega apostasy sinners, that
has removed God. · The real shaking comes AFTER the Ezekiel 9
sealing: “(Rev.7:2.) Seal Is a
Settling Into Truth.—Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their
foreheads—it is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a settling into
the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved—just
as soon as God people are sealed and prepared for the shaking, it will
come. Indeed, it has begun already;
the judgments of God are now upon the land, to give us warning, that we may
know what is coming (E.G. White, MS 173, 1902).SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 7a,
1161. Note there is nothing stating that there is to be no contact with
the churches in that particular place, but it is advisable to limit contact
in certain instances. We hope that
none today are expecting the church or church schools to do the whole, if
even the major portion of educating the children. Can it be proven that Ezk. 9
ever took place in the past, for in the past with the nation ( Ron’s response: Walt, read
Ezekiel 9 very carefully and prayerfully. Then use the same procedure in
reading the first chapter of The
Great Controversy. · Ezekiel chapters 1-9 are involved first
with the Jews and literal · Ezekiel 22:17-31 is the clincher. The
apostate Jews were gathered into the midst of · Ezekiel 9 and A.D. 70,
expressly took place in · Josephus, an eyewitness Jewish Historian,
said that the Romans began at the “Slay utterly old and young, both maids,
and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then
they began at the ancient men which were before the house (the church—theTemple the Sanctuary). All you have to know Walt,
is where His Sanctuary was. Then,
Josephus, an eyewitness historian,says
that they destroyed the city ( If it cannot be proven to have taken
place in the past, (as it does most definitely refer only to the house of
God, with the references within the passage to “Israel” and “Judah”, and not
to the heathen or world at large), and with that word given that it is to be
literally fulfilled, it is just as described in Ezk.
12:21-28, and is most specifically pointing to the people of God in a
later time, even to us as SDA. That
is: to our house. It is asked: With all that we see taking place within, are we not
as a people ripe and ready? Who could
truthfully deny? Certainly Ron, you
must stop and consider, that something is due to happen, for the Lord cannot
reach the world and carry forward to the greatest extent the total message of
salvation with this institution in the condition that it is in. Does He not need according
to Joshua 7:11-13, a pure people?
Are those that keep away and may even keep the “house church” without
even one sinner in their midst? Can
this be said? God needs and will have
“pure”, meaning -- “pure”. Is not
this why the winds persecution against the Church by the mention of Rev. 7
held, till the Church has not an accursed thing within its borders? Consider. Ron’s response: I have
granted that tares will dwell with the wheat until the close of probation: “The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest;
and the harvest is the end of probationary time.” However, God has a church that will not be defiled with women
(fallen churches) to commit Omega Apostasy.
There are apostasies so serious as to cause the church to be broken in
pieces—Isaiah 8:9-12. See the margin
meaning for the words “slaughter weapon” in Ezekiel 9:2. My bible says: “a weapon of his breaking in
pieces.” The church will be broken in
pieces because of its ecumenical liaisons with the fallen churches. You know what brother Walt?
The Jews made the huge mistake of thinking that God was dependent upon
them to finish His work, no matter what they did. But they failed Him and He acted according
to the following principle: “The Lord Jesus will always have a chosen
people to serve Him. When the Jewish people rejected Christ, the Prince of
life. He took from them the Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto
me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel,
saying, Not by might, nor by power,
but by my spirit, saith
the LORD of hosts. God gave the truth to the then known
world in Christ’s day with the aid of 12 disciples and the 70. He can do it
at the end with His 144,000 church triumphant combined with His mighty Holy
Spirit. Here is an example of how it will all work and is INDEED NOW WORKING: The
Other “ A Firmament of So lay aside your notions that God
needs Laodicean SDA’s no matter what they do—even to the point of
committing Omega Apostasy and “removing Him!” The very stones will cry out
the Loud Cry if necessary! “There is in some of the members of
the church, pride, self-sufficiency, stubborn unbelief, and a refusing to
yield their ideas, although evidence may be piled upon evidence which makes
the message to the Laodicean church applicable. But
that will not blot out the church that it will not exist. Let both tares and
wheat grow together until the harvest. Then it is the angels that do the work
of separation.{2SM 69.1}” Ron reponds:Absolutely!
The “We are not saved as a sect no
denominational name [Ship] has any virtue to bring us into favor with God. We
are saved individually as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. E.G. White,
Review and Herald, vol. 2, p. 464. SDA Pastor Jack Sequeira:
Christ will never take us to heaven as individuals, but only as members of
His church. Jack Sequeira, Beyond Belief, p. 115,
published by Pacific Press, a Seventh-day Adventist publishing house. SDA Ships Ahoy! Every one has heard the quote about the
noble ship being guided safely into port, but the leaders don’t tell you
about the following statements. Only
the True Reformers tell you these: Individual
vessels to bring into harbor: “May God give every man a
sense of his own personal helplessness to steer his own vessel straight and
safely into the harbor. The grace of Christ is essential every day. His
matchless grace alone can save our feet from falling. E.G. White Comments,
SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 6, 1109. Defective Ship: “We can know that
if a ship has false teaching it will not survive the rigors of the ocean of
strife and turmoil: You have had too great confidence in the ability of
these men. A ship may be sound in nearly every respect but if there is one
defect,--a bit of timber worm-eaten,--the lives of all on board are imperiled. E.G. White,
Testimonies, vol. 4, 322. Ship
Drifting at Sea Without Chart or Compass: “The facts concerning the real condition of the professed
people of God, speak more loudly than their profession, and make it evident
that some power has cut the cable that anchored them to the Eternal Rock, and
that they are drifting away to sea, without chart or compass. E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 2, p.
128, (Review and Herald, Vol. 2, p.231). (Also see Fundamentals of Christian
Education, p. 348).
Is the Pilot on board the SDA New
Movement, New Organization Ship described in Selected Messages, Bk. 1, 204-5? Page 205
says He [God] has been removed! Noble Ship #1: “I lately read of a NOBLE
SHIP that was plowing its way across the sea, when at midnight,
with a terrific crash, it struck upon
a rock the passengers were awakened only to see with horror their hopeless
condition, and with the ship they sank to rise no more. The MAN AT THE HELM
[VERSUS CHRIST] had mistaken the beacon light, and hundreds of souls were at
a moment's warning launched into eternity. E.G. White, Selected Messages,
vol. 2, 128. Noble Ship #2: “There is no need to doubt, to be fearful
that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and He will
set everything in order. If maters need adjusting at the head of the work,
God will attend to that and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is
going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port.
E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 2, 390. Immediately preceding the above statement
is the admonition: “We cannot now step off the foundation
that God has established. We cannot now enter into any new organization for
this would mean apostasy from the truth.--Manuscript 1290, 1905. Selected
Messages, vol. 2, 390. And the church went ahead a committed the
omega of apostasy by establishing a New Movement—organization that has
removed God. The following statement describes the
Omega of Apostasy in the church in context: “The enemy of souls has sought to bring
in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among
Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up
the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a
process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result?
The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church,
would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles
that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as
error. A NEW ORGANIZATION would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual
philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the
cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly
regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand
in the way of the NEW MOVEMENT.
The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being
removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without
God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and
tempest would sweep away the structure. WHO
HAS AUTHORITY TO BEGIN SUCH A [NEW] MOVEMENT? We have our Bibles. We have
our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We
have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall e not repudiate
everything that is not in harmony with this truth? .G. White, Selected
Messages, vol. 1, 204-205. In light of all the statements involving a ship, we must
interpret them all so that none contradict. The best way to achieve this goal
is to look for qualifying words. In the above statement the qualifying words
are NOBLE SHIP and THE PEOPLE OF GOD. Who are the people of God? Those who
keep His commandments and heed the Laodicean
message. Change
Leaders and Know it Not Change Leaders: “There is manifested on
the part of men in responsible positions an unwillingness to confess where
they have been
in the wrong and their neglect is working disaster, not only to themselves,
but to the churches....You will be left to make mistakes of a similar
character, you will continue to lack wisdom, and will can sin righteousness
and righteousness sin. The multitude of deceptions that will prevail in these
last days will encircle you, and you
will change leaders, and not know that you have done so. E.G. White,
Review and Herald,
Vol. 2, 448. Change Leaders: Men in positions of
responsibility are in danger of changing leaders. This I know, for it has been plainly
revealed to me. E.G. White, Series B, #2, p. 48. Change Leaders: Men who might have stood
in clear light, doing valiant service as ministers of the gospel and medical missionaries,
have been accepting false theories and sophistries which originated with the
father of lies, and yet they do not realize that they have changed. E.G.
White, Special Testimonies, Series B, #7, p. 13-16, November 20, 1905. Change Leaders: Satan will set up his hellish banner right
in your homes, and you will be so blinded to the real nature of his
deceptions that you reverence it as the banner of Christ. E.G. White, The
1888 Materials, p. 505. Change Leaders: They will not recognize
him [Satan] as their enemy, that old serpent, but they will consider him a
FRIEND, one who is doing a good work. Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 294. Change Leaders: Satan has laid his plans to
undermine our faith in the history of the cause and work of God. I am deeply
in earnest as I write this. Satan is working with men in prominent positions
to sweep away the foundation of our faith. Shall we allow this to be done,
brethren? E.G. White, Review and Herald, Nov. 19, 1903. Note: The foundation of our faith
involves pillar doctrines, and Newell Hammond says this is not now, was not,
and never will be a problem. Again, Ellen White refutes such foohardy error. Change Leaders if Mistakes are not
Admitted and Changed: “If when the
Lord reveals your errors you do not repent or make confession, his providence
will bring you over the ground again and again. You will be left to make
mistakes of a similar character, you will continue to lack wisdom, and will
call sin righteousness, and righteousness sin. The multitude of deceptions
that will prevail in these last days will encircle you, and you will CHANGE
LEADERS, AND NOT KNOW THAT YOU HAVE DONE SO. E.G. White, Review and Herald,
vol. 2, p. 449. Change Leaders: “Satan has COME IN with his specious
temptations, and has led the professed followers of Christ away from the
[PILOT] Leader (Christ), classing them with the foolish virgins. Testimonies
to Ministers, p. 130. Change Leaders: “Refusing to follow in the path of
obedience, they transferred their allegiance to Satan. The enemy rejoiced in
his success in effacing the divine image from the minds of the people that
God had chosen as His representatives. Through [ECUMENICAL] intermarriage with idolaters and
CONSTANT ASSOCIATION WITH THEM Isa. 8:9-20], Satan
brought about that for which he had long been working,--a national
apostasy. Fundamentals to Christian
Education, p. 449. “There is in some of the members of the church, pride,
self-sufficiency, stubborn unbelief, and a refusing to yield their ideas,
although evidence may be piled upon evidence which makes the message to the Laodicean church applicable. But that will not blot
out the church that it will not exist. Let both tares and wheat grow
together until the harvest. Then it is the angels that do the work of
separation. {2SM 69.1}” “In the parable of the wheat and the tares, we see the reason
why the tares were not to be plucked up; it was lest the wheat be rooted
up with the tares. Human opinion and judgment would make grave mistakes. But
rather than have a mistake made, and one single blade of wheat rooted up, the
Master says, "Let both grow together until the harvest;" then
the angels will gather out the tares, which will be appointed to destruction.
Although in our churches, that claim to believe advanced truth, there are
those who are faulty and erring, as tares among the wheat, God is
long-suffering
46 and patient. He reproves and warns the erring, but He does
not destroy those who are long in learning the lesson He would teach them; He
does not uproot the tares from the wheat. Tares and wheat are to grow
together till the harvest; when the wheat comes to its full growth and
development, and because of its character when ripened, it will be fully
distinguished from the tares. {TM
45.2} The Ron responds: The above
statement by Ellen White clearly is in reference to tares. There should be no hasty action to pull up
tares, but open sinning thorns must be separated if they will not
reform. Also, Omega Apostasy involves
far more serious violations than the mere faults and defects such as we all
have! [We might want to take note that though there is perhaps a
preparation to be attained to afterward, that the wheat do in fact develop
character-wise, to the full extent, within the harvest period, and to
at least (from the context), to some great degree while among the tares so as
to be a need to be distinguished from them.] “Satan will
work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The
church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It
remains, while the sinners in Ron’s response: Yes, the chaff is separated from Zion by Zion
the church triumphant. She is always
the True Reformers of any generation and it is always she who causes the
shaking out of the truth—the Hbr 12:22 But ye
are come unto Hbr 12:23 To the
general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and
to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, The above “The Lord
appoints and sends forth ministers not only to preach, for this is a small
part of His work, but to minister, to educate the people not to be
fighters but to be examples of piety. There are workers in every
department appointed to do their work. When Jesus ascended on high He gave
some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and
teachers. Some have entered the work with a human commission rather than
the divine. They have educated themselves as debaters, and the
churches under their care show the character of their work. They were
not ready, they were not fitted for the work. Their
hearts are not right with God. In short, they have a theory but not true
conversion and sanctification through the truth. The great issue
so near at hand will weed out those whom God has not appointed, and He
will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain. {12MR 327.1}” Ron’s response: And who will the true ministers be at that
time? Who will give the latter rain?
The church triumphant—the 144,000. “Let
me tell you that the Lord will work in this last work in a manner very much
out of the common order of things, and in a way that will be contrary to any
human planning. There will be those among us who will always want to control
the work of God, to dictate even what movements shall be made when the work
goes forward under the direction of the angel who joins the third angel in
the message to be given to the world. God
will use ways and means by which it will be seen that He is taking the reins
in His own hands. The workers will be surprised by the simple means
that He will use to bring about and perfect His work of righteousness.”--TM
300 (1885). He will raise up from among the common
people men and women to do His work, even as of old He called fishermen to be
His disciples. There will soon be an awakening that will surprise many. Those
who do not realize the necessity of what is to be done will be passed by, and
the heavenly messengers will work with those who are called the common
people, fitting them to carry the truth to many places.--15MR 312 (1905).
{LDE 204.2} Laborers Qualified by the Holy Spirit In the last solemn work few great men will be engaged. . . . God
will work a work in our day that but few anticipate. He will raise up and exalt among us those who are taught rather by
the unction of His Spirit than by the outward training of scientific
institutions. These facilities are not to be despised or condemned; they are
ordained of God, but they can furnish only the exterior qualifications. God will
manifest that He is not dependent on learned, self-important mortals.--5T 80,
82 (1882). {LDE 204.3} To souls that are earnestly seeking for light and that accept
with gladness every ray of divine illumination from His holy Word, to such
alone light will be given. It is through these souls that God will reveal
that light and power which will lighten the whole earth with His glory.--5T
729 (1889). {LDE 205.1} It is discipline of spirit, cleanness of heart and thought that
is needed. This is of more value than brilliant talent, tact, or knowledge.
An ordinary mind, trained to obey a "Thus saith
the Lord," is better qualified for God's work than are those who have
capabilities but do not employ them rightly.--RH Nov. 27, 1900. {LDE 205.2} The laborers will be qualified rather by the unction of His
Spirit than by the training of literary institutions. Men of faith and prayer
will be constrained to go forth with holy zeal, declaring the words which God
gives them.--GC 606 (1911). {LDE 205.3} Ron responds: Walt, I agree on not debating but
rather discussing such important truths.
However, there are times when we cannot shun Spiritual warfare based
on the following principles: “WHO HAS AUTHORITY TO BEGIN SUCH A [NEW Omega of Apostasy]
MOVEMENT? We have our Bibles. We have our experience,
attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not
repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 1, 204-205. Church Authority: The belief enunciated at the
committee meeting and by the GC report, that the church has the final right to decide what are acceptable beliefs, is a concept
that could be heard from any Roman Catholic bishop.
Standish Brothers. “To secure peace and unity they [the
Reformers] were ready to make any concession consistent with fidelity to God but they felt that even peace would be too dearly purchased at
the sacrifice of principle. If unity could be secured
only by the compromise of
truth and righteousness, then let there
be difference, and even war.” (Great
Controversy, p. 45). “While others try to throw a cloak over the existing
evil, and excuse the great wickedness everywhere
prevalent, those who have a zeal for God's honor and a love for souls will not hold their peace to obtain favor of any. Their
righteous souls are vexed day by day with the unholy works and
conversation of the unrighteous. They are powerless to stop the rushing
torrent of iniquity, and
ence they are filled with grief and alarm. They mourn
before God to see eligion despised in the very homes of those who have had great
light. They lament and afflict their souls because pride, avarice,
selfishness, and deception of almost every kind are in the church. The Spirit of God, which
prompts to reproof, is trampled underfoot, while the servants of Satan triumph. God is dishonored, the truth made of none effect (Testimonies,Vol. 5, pp. 210,
211). “The same disobedience and
failure which were seen in the Jewish church have characterized in a greater degree the people who have had this great
light from heaven in the last messages of warning.”
(Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 456). “Confederacies will increase in
number and power as we draw nearer to the end of time. These confederacies will create opposing influences to the truth, forming
new parties of professed believers who will act out
their own delusive theories.
The apostasy will increase. 'Some shall
depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits,
and doctrines of devils.' Men and women have confederated to oppose the Lord
God of heaven, and the church is only half awake to the situation. There needs to be much more prayer, much more of earnest
effort, among professed believers. --Review and Herald, Aug.
5, 1909, (Evangelism p. 363). The gates of hell will never prevail against the
True SDA Church will triumphant, while the apostate, New Movement Imposter
Church will be brought down to hell: “And thou, All the brackets and their data in
the above quote are as in the original source. Ellen White uses a corporate city, The
Prophesied Fall of The Professing Seventh-day Adventist Church Militant "Jesus sends HIS PEOPLE a message of warning to prepare
them for his coming. To the prophet John was made known the closing work in
the great plan of man's redemption. He beheld an angel flying 'in the midst
of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on
the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying
with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his
Judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea,
and the fountains of waters [Rev. 14:6, 7.]. The angel represented
in prophecy as delivering this mesage, symbolizes a class of faithful men, who,
obedient to the promptings of God's Spirit and the teachings of his word,
proclaim this warning to the inhabitants of earth. This message was not to be committed to the religious leaders of
the people. They had failed to preserve their connection with God,
and had REFUSED THE LIGHT FROM HEAVEN therefore they WERE NOT of the
number described by the apostle Paul: 'But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of
light, and the chilldren of the day we are not of the night nor of darnkess'
[1 Thess. 5:4, 5]. The watchmen upon the walls of There are many men in our world who are like Cornelius. . . . As
God worked for Cornelius, so He works for these true standard-bearers. . . .
They will obtain a knowledge of God as Cornelius did
through the visitation of angels from
heaven.--Letter 197, 1904. {LDE 207.2} When divine power is combined with human effort, the work will
spread like fire in the stubble. God
will employ agencies whose origin man will be unable to discern. Angels
will do a work which men might have had the blessing of accomplishing had
they not neglected to answer the claims of God.--1SM 118 (1885). {LDE 207.3} God bless, Ron This is all. Take Care Walt |