Internet Opponents Versus Scripture and EGW on Babylon--Part II

Opponents,

Why do you continue to ignore the other statements on what constitutes Babylon according to Ellen White? Until you do, you lack integrity and honesty as a Bible student and you have no credibility. You cannot know that you are not in error until you resolve all Ellen White's statements on Babylon and interpret them all so that none contradict the others. She said that this is the only way we can KNOW that we are not in error. There are other ways she said the church could become Babylon, the cage of every unclean and hateful bird other than the "chosen" ones you and your leaders cite. Thus, you are blind leaders of the blind until you follow the weight of evidence formula.

Forum,

Opponents of certain e-groups I was a member of removed my ownership when I gave all the other quotes on Babylon which they refused to reconcile with their favorite selected ones. This is not Christian. This is not even common ethics. This is not freedom of thought and speech. This is standing in the gate deciding what the people should and should not have:

"In the very courts of the temple, scenes will be enacted that few realize. God's people will be proved and tested, that He may discern 'between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not.' Vengeance will be executed against those who sit in the gate, deciding what the people should have and what they should not have. These take away the key of knowledge. They refuse to enter in themselves, and those who would enter in they hinder. These bear not the seal of the living God. All who now occupy responsible positions should be solemnly and terribly afraid lest in this time they shall be found as unfaithful stewards." E.G. White, Manuscript 15, 1886, Paulson Collection, p. 55.

Brother Ron,

I do not twist the writings of Sister White, Your debate is not with me but it is with Mrs. White who plainly and clearly says "The Seventh Day Adventist Church is NOT Babylon" we need no interpreter for her statements are to clear!

You for some reason you seem to think that I twist her writings, below I include her statements with no comments of my own, no twisting, NO FALSE interpretation, let the reader decide!

The message to pronounce the Seventh-Day Adventist Church Babylon, and call the people of God out of her, DOES NOT come from any heavenly messenger, or any human agent inspired by the Spirit of God. {2SM 66.2}

We have NEVER had the prophecy concerning Babylon applied to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, or been informed that the "loud cry" consisted in calling God's people to come out of her; for this is not God's plan concerning Israel. {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 12}

The Lord has not given YOU a message to call the Seventh-day Adventist church Babylon, and to call the people of God to come out of her. All the reasons you may present cannot have weight with me on this subject; because the Lord has given me decided light, that is opposed to such a message. {1MR 297.4}

To claim that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, is to make the same claim as does Satan, who is an accuser of the brethren, who accuses them before God night and day. By this misusing of the Testimonies, souls are placed in perplexity, because they cannot understand the relation of the Testimonies to such a position as is taken by those in error; for God intended that the Testimonies should always have a setting in the frame-work of truth. {RH, August 29, 1893 par. 6}

"My brother, if you are teaching that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, you are wrong, God has not given you any such message to bear. Satan will use every mind to which he can attain access, inspiring men to originate false theories or go off on some wrong tangent, that he may create a false excitement, and thus divert souls from the true issue for this time. I presume that some may be deceived by your message, because they are full of curiosity and desire for some new thing. {TM 59.2}

Those who have proclaimed the Seventh-day Adventist Church as part of Babylon, have made use of the testimonies in giving their position a seeming support; but why is it that they did not present that which for years has been the burden of my message,--the unity of the church? Why did they not quote the words of the angel, "Press together, Press together, Press together"? Why did they not repeat the admonition and state the principle, that "in union there is strength, in division there is weakness?" It is such messages as these men have borne, that divide the church, and put us to shame before the enemies of truth, and in such messages is plainly revealed the specious working of the great deceiver, who would hinder the church from attaining unto perfection in unity. These teachers follow the sparks of their own kindling, move according to their own independent judgment, and cumber the truth with false notions and theories. They refuse the counsel of their brethren, and press on in their own way, until they become just what Satan would desire to have them,--unbalanced in mind. {RH, September 12, 1893 par. 7}

"My brother, I learn that you are taking the position that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, and that all that would be saved must come out of her. You are not the only man whom the enemy has deceived in this matter. For the last forty years, one man after another has arisen, claiming that the Lord has sent him with the same message; but let me tell you, as I have told them, that this message you are proclaiming, is one of the Satanic delusions designed to create confusion among the churches. My brother, you are certainly off the track. The second angel's message was to go to Babylon [the churches] proclaiming her downfall, and calling the people to come out of her. This same message is to be proclaimed the second time. 'And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.' {RH, September 12, 1893 par. 14}

"My brother, if you are teaching that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, you are wrong. God has not given you any such message to bear. Satan will use every mind to which he can attain access, inspiring men to originate false theories, or go off on some wrong tangent, that he may create a false excitement, and thus divert souls from the true issue for this time. I presume that some may be deceived by your message, because they are full of curiosity and desire for some new thing. {RH, September 12, 1893 par. 15}

"It makes me feel sad indeed that you should be deceived in any way by the suggestions of the enemy; for I know the theory that you are advocating is not truth. In advancing the ideas you do, you will do great injury to yourself and to others. Do not seek to misinterpret, and twist, and pervert, the testimonies to substantiate any such message of error. Many have passed over this ground, and have done great harm. As others have started up full of zeal to proclaim this message, again and again, I have been shown that it was NOT truth. {RH, September 12, 1893 par. 16}

Ron, you completely ignore these quotes from the SOP, stop misinterpreting, twisting, and perverting, the testimonies to substantiate any such message the Seventh Day Adventist Church is Babylon. Mrs. White says you are on the wrong track.

Ron to opponents:,

Being an SDA ministers son, I am altogether familiar with every EGW quote you present on Babylon. However, what I did not know for decades, was the other EGW statements on how the church could become Babylon, which you and your leaders refuse to reconcile with the ones you both use. This is not honest exegesis. This is dishonest eisegesis of the Testimonies as well as Scriptures, for Christ referred to the apostate Jewish church as the Synagogue of Satan. They were once a chosen people also. There is only one Synagogue of Satan, and that Synagogue is made up of all churches which remove God, Selected Messages, Book 1, 204-5. There are only two masters.

Opponent is dishonest in this same area. He cannot refute my refutation of his arguments. I put both his and my arguments on my Website. On his Website, he puts only his arguments against me. What is he afraid of? He is just like you opponent. He is afraid of the truth. He will not present all of the fact and trust the people to make a correct decision. You both are thus sitting in the gate deciding what the people should and should not have. This is tyrannical and despotic behaviour. This is unfair and dishonest behaviour for which God will inflict vengeance. Your day is coming.

Opponent name,

It just so happens that opponent has been infinitely more integral and fair that you by presenting nearly all of my manuscripts on this forum [even those on Babylon]. He did not regard them as Adventist bashing, because they were not such. He evidently recognized them as truth or he would not have published them on this group. Are you trying to interpolate what Mike believes?

Ron Beaulieu

Opponent,

I did not know that telling the truth about ALL Ellen White's statements on Babylon was Adventist bashing. If Mike thinks I am so guilty, he can remove me from this group and I will have no recriminations against him or you. I do not call the SDA church Babylon. I present Ellen White's conditional statements as to how, why and when the SDA church is become Babylon. The evidence is hers, not mine.

Brother Ron,

I do not twist the writings of Sister White, Your debate is not with me but it is with Mrs. White who plainly and clearly says "The Seventh Day Adventist Church is NOT Babylon" we need no interpreter for her statements are to clear!

You for some reason you seem to think that I twist her writings, below I include her statements with no comments of my own, no twisting, NO FALSE interpretation, let the reader decide!

The message to pronounce the Seventh-Day Adventist Church Babylon, and call the people of God out of her, DOES NOT come from any heavenly messenger, or any human agent inspired by the Spirit of God. {2SM 66.2}

We have NEVER had the prophecy concerning Babylon applied to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, or been informed that the "loud cry" consisted in calling God's people to come out of her; for this is not God's plan concerning Israel. {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 12}

The Lord has not given YOU a message to call the Seventh-day Adventist church Babylon, and to call the people of God to come out of her. All the reasons you may present cannot have weight with me on this subject; because the Lord has given me decided light, that is opposed to such a message. {1MR 297.4}

To claim that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, is to make the same claim as does Satan, who is an accuser of the brethren, who accuses them before God night and day. By this misusing of the Testimonies, souls are placed in perplexity, because they cannot understand the relation of the Testimonies to such a position as is taken by those in error; for God intended that the Testimonies should always have a setting in the frame-work of truth. {RH, August 29, 1893 par. 6}

"My brother, if you are teaching that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, you are wrong, God has not given you any such message to bear. Satan will use every mind to which he can attain access, inspiring men to originate false theories or go off on some wrong tangent, that he may create a false excitement, and thus divert souls from the true issue for this time. I presume that some may be deceived by your message, because they are full of curiosity and desire for some new thing. {TM 59.2}

Those who have proclaimed the Seventh-day Adventist Church as Babylon, have made use of the testimonies in giving their position a seeming support; but why is it that they did not present that which for years has been the burden of my message,--the unity of the church? Why did they not quote the words of the angel, "Press together, Press together, Press together"? Why did they not repeat the admonition and state the principle, that "in union there is strength, in division there is weakness?" It is such messages as these men have borne, that divide the church, and put us to shame before the enemies of truth, and in such messages is plainly revealed the specious working of the great deceiver, who would hinder the church from attaining unto perfection in unity. These teachers follow the sparks of their own kindling, move according to their own independent judgment, and cumber the truth with false notions and theories. They refuse the counsel of their brethren, and press on in their own way, until they become just what Satan would desire to have them,--unbalanced in mind. {RH, September 12, 1893 par. 7}

"My brother, I learn that you are taking the position that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, and that all that would be saved must come out of her. You are not the only man whom the enemy has deceived in this matter. For the last forty years, one man after another has arisen, claiming that the Lord has sent him with the same message; but let me tell you, as I have told them, that this message you are proclaiming, is one of the Satanic delusions designed to create confusion among the churches. My brother, you are certainly off the track. The second angel's message was to go to Babylon [the churches] proclaiming her downfall, and calling the people to come out of her. This same message is to be proclaimed the second time. 'And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.' {RH, September 12, 1893 par. 14}

"My brother, if you are teaching that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, you are wrong. God has not given you any such message to bear. Satan will use every mind to which he can attain access, inspiring men to originate false theories, or go off on some wrong tangent, that he may create a false excitement, and thus divert souls from the true issue for this time. I presume that some may be deceived by your message, because they are full of curiosity and desire for some new thing. {RH, September 12, 1893 par. 15}

"It makes me feel sad indeed that you should be deceived in any way by the suggestions of the enemy; for I know the theory that you are advocating is not truth. In advancing the ideas you do, you will do great injury to yourself and to others. Do not seek to misinterpret, and twist, and pervert, the testimonies to substantiate any such message of error. Many have passed over this ground, and have done great harm. As others have started up full of zeal to proclaim this message, again and again, I have been shown that it was NOT truth. {RH, September 12, 1893 par. 16}

Ron, you completely ignore these quotes from the SOP, stop misinterpreting, twisting, and perverting, the testimonies to substantiate any such message the Seventh Day Adventist Church is Babylon. Mrs. White says you are on the wrong track.

Signed opponents name

Opponent,

Let's take one of your pet E.G. White statements and examine it closely:

We have NEVER had the prophecy concerning Babylon applied to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, or been informed that the "loud cry" consisted in calling God's people to come out of her; for this is not God's plan concerning Israel. {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 12}

She also said in 1888 that she had "hoped" that there would not be another coming out, directly implying that such could be the case. But even at that, she is the lesser light, and Ezekiel, chapters five and nine, which she says will be literally be fulfilled again, demand another coming out of the true SDA church triumphant remnant. Ezekiel 22:17-31 tells us where the dross (tares) are gathered for burning and melting. Ezekiel 5:9 establishes END-TIME CONTEXT for Ezekiel's writings, for it is at the end that God does the worst thing He ever has done or ever will do, Matthew 24:21.

If you would like to deal with all your "selected" E.G. White statements one at a time Opponent, I will be glad to do so, but I will be gone for most of the rest of this day. But I will faithfully deal with any E.G. White statement on Babylon which you present and clearly demonstrate the faulty interpretation you are making in light of all her statements.

Ron Beaulieu

Opponent's name,

Notice that every one of your quoted E.G. White statements below is from a Review and Herald article of 1893 vintage. Even the Testimonies to Ministers statement is from that 1893 article which was a letter to two men, Stanton and Caldwell, who were calling the SDA church Babylon when it was not so in the least instance. Indeed, everyone of the statements is true up until that time (1893) and even until the early 1930's. You ignorantly refuse to consider Ellen White's counsel to take time, place and circumstance into consideration when using her statements as proof material. This is not honest. This is not wise. This is a formula for arriving at gross error.

I presented the truth, I'm sorry if you think God will call down His vengeance on me for disagreeing with you.

God Bless you Ron and may He open your eyes to your great error.

Signed Opponent's name

Opponents name,

The 1883 article was printed in the Review and Heralds in 1956 by the church. I have the Review and Herald Articles. The article in question is found in Volume #6, p. 513, and is entitled Should Adventists Join Some New Movement? Ellen White died in 1915. I will honor Mike's request and not discuss this further Opponent. However, anyone who wishes me to deal with any E.G. White statement Opponent quotes or any other SDA quotes, please submit such to the following address:

Let me clarify myself while I do not believe the Church is Babylon, I do believe it it in apostasy.

Sister White says " The Lord has not given you a message to call the Seventh-day Adventists Babylon, and to call the people of God to come out of her......There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be. -2SM 63, 68, 69 (1893)

We are not saved as a sect; no denominational name has any virtue to bring us into favor with God. We are saved individually as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. And "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God." {RH, February 10, 1891 par. 5}

We are to sigh and cry and pray for those who are in apostasy in the church. We are NOT to leave the Church.

Did you get that? Divisions will come in the Church, Two parties devoleped in the Church, both these parties grow up together.

The work will grow deeper and become more earnest to the very close of time. And all who are laborers together with God will contend most earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. They will not be turned from the present message, which is already lightening the earth with its glory. Nothing is worth contending for but the glory of God. The only rock that will stand is the Rock of Ages. The truth as it is in Jesus is the refuge in these days of error. {17MR 18.1}

We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? {TSB 188.3}

How can anyone make decided efforts to cure the existing evil if they leave the Church?

The great issue so near at hand [enforcement of Sunday laws] will weed out those whom God has not appointed and He will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain.--3SM 385 (1886).

God's true people will stand firm in the truth, the Tares in the Church will be weeded out by the Sunday Law. God will purify his Church.

Many will stand in our pulpits with the torch of false prophecy in their hands, kindled from the hellish torch of Satan. . . . {LDE 179.3}

Some will go out from among us who will bear the ark no longer. But these can not make walls to obstruct the truth; for it will go onward and upward to the end.--TM 409, 411 (1898). {LDE 179.4}

Ministers and doctors may depart from the faith, as the Word declares they will, and as the messages that God has given His servant declare they will.--7MR 192 (1906). {LDE 179.5}

The shaking of God blows away multitudes like dry leaves.--4T 89 (1876). {LDE 180.1}

It blows them away from where? They leave the Church

Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat.--5T 81 (1882). {LDE 180.2}

Soon God's people will be tested by fiery trials, and the great proportion of those who now appear to be genuine and true will prove to be base metal. . . . {LDE 180.3}

When the religion of Christ is most held in contempt, when His law is most despised, then should our zeal be the warmest and our courage and firmness the most unflinching. To stand in defense of truth and righteousness when the majority forsake us, to fight the battles of the Lord when champions are few--this will be our test. At this time we must gather warmth from the coldness of others, courage from their cowardice, and loyalty from their treason.--5T 136 (1882).

The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.--2SM 380 (1886).

Do you get that? The sinners will be sifted out of the Church. at the end

As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition.--GC 608 (1911).

Sister White says there are evils IN the Church and will be until the end of the world.

A Statement by W. C. White

I TOLD HER [MRS. LIDA SCOTT] HOW MOTHER REGARDED THE EXPERIENCE OF THE REMNANT CHURCH, AND OF HER POSITIVE TEACHING THAT GOD WOULD NOT PERMIT THIS DENOMINATION TO SO FULLY APOSTATIZE THAT THERE WOULD BE THE COMING OUT OF ANOTHER CHURCH.--W. C. White to E. E. Andross, May 23, 1915, White Estate Correspondence File. {LDE 56.4}

Opponent and Forum,

Just some thought provoking questions. If the bad (tares) are shaken out of the SDA church militant to leave it purged and purified as many SDA's believe will occur, why do the following things transpire? Ellen White says that Ezekiel 9 is literally repeated and that the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem was a PREFIGURE of that event (The Great Controversy, p. 25). In that PREFIGURE TYPE, the good left the bad. So, at the end-time antitypical and final fulfillment of Ezekiel 9, in order to follow the prefigure, the good will then also leave the bad. Ellen White must not be interpreted in any way that contradicts Ezekiel 5:1-3, and verse 9 establishes end-time context for Ezekiel chapters 5 and 9, because it is then that God does the worst thing He will ever do. Ezekiel 5:1-3, says that a remnant will be taken in his skirts and then the remaining church, represented by the three-thirds whole of his shaved hair, will be destroyed. Ellen White says the same thing. She and Ezekiel agree, so Willie White's saying to Lida Scott, was in contradiction to his mothers teaching and Ezekiel chapters 5 and 9. Also, Ezekiel 22:17-31 tells where the tares (dross) were gathered in the PREFIGURE type of A.D. 70. They were gathered into the midst of Jerusalem, the apostate church, while the faithful fled. That is according to a solid PREFIGURE TYPE, the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, chapter 1, The Great Controversy. So if Willie White was correct, Ellen White would be made a false prophet in saying that there was not to be another coming out. There will be no other SDA church, but a true SDA remnant will flee and escape the Ezekiel 9 slaughter beginning at His Sanctuary or Ellen White is a self-contradicting false prophet in the following statements, which just happen to agree with Ezekiel. Ellen White did say that they hoped that there would not be the need for another coming out, but even in that statement she implied such could be the case, and Ezekiel and Ellen White's following statements DEMAND another coming out.

There are two masters, God and Satan. Satan's Synagogue is confusion, Babylon. If a church has removed God via Omega Apostasy, as Opponent concedes to, (Selected Messages, Book 1, 204-5), then it is controlled by Satan and is in confusion and is thus Babylon. If a church has to imbibe all the errors of Rome in order to become a PART of Babylon, then the fallen churches would not be Babylon because they do not teach all the errors of Rome. According to Ellen White, the church only has to marry itself to the world to become Babylon, the cage of every unclean and hateful bird. It does not have to teach all the erroneous doctrines of Babylon. According to Ellen White, it does not even have to teach Sunday sacredness. She stated three conditions under which the church would become the cage of every unclean and hateful bird:

• Marrying the church to the world. (Worldly Accreditation in its educational facilities and/or Ecumenical Confederacy with churches indistinguishable from the world (Early Writings, 273).
• Unlawful intimacy allowed into the church.
• Forming a New Movement that removes God--Selected Messages, Book 1, 204-5.
• Becoming Laodicean to the point of no return, which includes adoption of either of the first three items. With God removed, Satan is then in control.