Response to Bryan Bissell's Rebuttal to Ron #1

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Dear Reader,

This document is in response to Bryan Bissell’s rebuttal to my rebuttal to him and Ulicia Unruh. There is one person involved herein who has shifted sides so many times now that he is embarrassed for his name to be included, so I have omitted it. The reason that I have chosen to post to my Website only is that I do not have time to write to all of the various Internet email groups and many will not tolerate the light.

I hereby promise to publish any Ellen White statement that anyone sends to me for publication. Signed: Ron Beaulieu.

So let it never again be falsely charged that I shy away from any statement(s) by Ellen White or scripture! I have never tried to shy away from any statement by Ellen White or the Bible. Rather, I have interpreted them all according to the weight of evidence formula as prescribed by Ellen White. Anyone can make Ellen White say many contradictory things without strict adherence to the following formula:

1.   Weight of Evidence Formula: "1. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible 2. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by diligent application and study 3. Nothing revealed in Scripture can or will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering 4. To understand doctrine, bring all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to know, then let every word have its proper influence and if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error 5. Scripture must be its own expositor, [interpreter] since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound to me, and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed, or wisdom is my rule, and not the Bible." E.G. White, Second Advent Review and Herald, 11-25-34, pr. 24.

 

Now to Bryan’s rebuttal:

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Bryan Bissell

To: SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com ; defendEGW@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:22 AM

Subject: [DefendEGW] Re: [SDAIssues] Check this out Bryan

 

Bryan,
Ron has turned coward and not posting here anymore, because you proved his message wrong.
So he has resorted to making his responses to you on his website because he knows you can't respond there.

http://members.tripod.com/omega77/rebuttalbissellunruh1.htm


Thanks for sending this ____(name omitted).  Ron as usual is extremely unbalanced and includes my name while responding exclusively to Ulicia.  Sheesh.  He didn't quote any of the proof texts that I referred to in my long letter about him, section 6 that range from the 1880s to 1910s where EGW says that the SDA church is not and won't be Babylon.   We must agree that there is a possibility of becoming Babylon on the conditions that you have mentioned for example, but even though there are many problems in the church it is impossible to be Babylon now and extremely unlikely that it ever will be.  Something interesting is that for Israel, there were all kinds of conditional statements from the very beginning (see Deut. 28 for example) that they could be rejected.  There is some talking in certain places about how God will not reject them, but as I read it, the majority of the time, God says their continued acceptance is very conditional. The statements of EGW about SDA go way beyond anything the Bible said about Israel as far as SDA going through to the end.  Several of your quotes ____(name omitted) that of course Ron left out also support that very strongly.

 

Ron comments: I did not respond exclusively to Ulicia. Anything I said to her applied to Bryan, as they both argue the same things. I am including all and any quotes that Bryan or anyone else cares to send along to me. Bryan Bissell, Ulicia Unruh and most SDA’s employ the following statements by Ellen White to try to imply that no matter what the church has done by way of omega apostasy, it is still God’s chosen instrument. Like the Jews of old, SDA’s are just as prone to UNCONDITIONALLY apply promises by their prophet to them. This is most unfortunate.

 

Bryan stated above: “The statements of EGW about SDA go way beyond anything the Bible said about Israel as far as SDA going through to the end.”

 

Bryan’s statement is manifestly untrue. God made very UNCONDITIONAL “SOUNDING” promises to the Jews which they clearly misinterpreted as we will see in this document!

 

End comment.

Here is just one more, from 1913 no less:


I am encouraged and blessed as I realize that the God of Israel is still guiding His people and that He will continue to be with them, even to the end.--2SM 406 (1913). [FROM ELLEN WHITE'S FINAL MESSAGE TO THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH IN GENERAL CONFERENCE SESSION. THESE REASSURING WORDS WERE READ TO THE SESSION BY THE GENERAL CONFERENCE PRESIDENT, A. G. DANIELLS, ON MAY 27, 1913.]

 

Ron comments: I am very sure that the God of Israel (true Israel) is still guiding His people and that He will continue to be with them, even to the end. His people are those who keep the commandments of God and heed the Laodicean message as well as the three angel’s messages and the Midnight Cry WITHOUT DRAWING BACK IN ANY WAY FROM THOSE MESSAGES and conditions.


Note she is writing to the GC which makes it obvious that she is referring to SDAs as God's people.  I read another one even from 1915 I believe that is similar.

 

Ron’s comment: I don’t question that Ellen White was speaking of God’s people. But we better know the conditions for whom God considers His people.

"I am instructed to say to Seventh-day Adventists the world over, God has called us as a people to be a peculiar treasure unto Himself. He has appointed that His church on earth shall stand
perfectly united in the Spirit and counsel of the Lord of hosts to the end of time." --2SM 397 (1908).

 

Ron comments: I added the all emphases to the words perfectly united above. This quote has some very qualifying words that most SDA will fail to discern:

 

·      God did indeed call the Adventist people to be His peculiar treasure. That call has been rejected by the ecumenical liaison the church has established with Babylon, in violation of the first and second angel’s messages and the Midnight Cry of Matthew 25, which Ellen White said gave power to the second angel’s message.

·      Ellen White said elsewhere that the 144,000 will be perfectly united. She said that they are translated without seeing death. She said that only they go into the Temple on Mt. Zion. EW, p. 19.

·      The SDA church militant is FAR FROM PERFECTLY UNITED. This should be clear and perfect empirical evidence that Ellen White WAS NOT speaking of that church, for if she was, the huge division in the church since the 1970’s would make her a very false prophet.

·      Thus, the way the statement is interpreted, all who interpret it as Bryan, Ulicia and most SDA’s do, make Ellen White a false prophet by their own misrepresentation of the facts.

·      There are always two churches of God at work on earth.

1.   The church militant wheat and tare co-ed church which qualifies as a church IF it is keeping the commandments of God and heeding the Midnight Cry and the three angel’s messages.

2.   The church triumphant which in the form of true reformers who are ever present in the earth as representatives of the church of Hebrews 12:22, 23:  "The members of the church triumphant--the church in heaven--will be permitted to draw near to the members of the church militant, to aid them in their necessity." E. G. White, The Southern Watchman, Sep. 8, 1903.

 

Fact number 2 above is a little known and recognized truth in Adventism. It is taught only by true reformers who are called by God:

 

 "Characteristics of True Reformers.--Here [Isa. 8:11-14] are given the characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear the banner of the third angel’s message, these who avow themselves God's commandment-keeping people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in the sight of all the universe, in building up the old waste places.  Who is it that calls them, The repairer of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is God.  Their names are registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations of many generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1151.

 

God first called the Jews as His peculiar treasure unto Himself. They rejected His conditions even though He made some pretty mighty FOREVER SOUNDING PROMISES TO THEM, to wit:

God's promises are all made upon conditions.  Faith and Works, p.47 

God would in no wise excuse sin in a people who had been enlightened, even if He had, in their days of faithfulness and purity, loved them, and given them especial promises. These promises and blessings were always upon condition of obedience upon their part. SOP, Vol. 2, p.54. 

God had given them [Jews] His gracious promise that they should become a peculiar treasure unto Him, on condition of obedience; but if they were disobedient He would reject them, and choose another people. Signs of the Times, Vol. 1, p. 152.

Promises the Jews misinterpreted -- "The Jews had deceived themselves by misinterpreting the words of the Lord through his prophets, of his eternal favor to his people Israel.

'Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar the Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. Thus saith the Lord: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.' Jer. 31:35-37.

These words the Jews applied to themselves. And because God had shown them so great favor and mercy, they flattered themselves that, notwithstanding their sins and iniquities, he would still retain them as his favored people, and shower especial blessings upon them. They misapplied the words of Jeremiah and depended for their salvation upon being called the [chosen] children of Abraham. If they had indeed been worthy of the name of Abraham's children, they would have followed the righteous example of their father Abraham, and would have done the works of Abraham.

This has been the danger of the people of God in all ages and especially is this the danger of those living near the close of time. . . .

God would in no wise excuse sin in a people who had been enlightened, even if he had, in their days of faithfulness and purity, loved them, and given them especial promises. These promises and blessings were always upon condition of obedience upon their part.

The Lord pronounced, by the mouth of Moses, blessings upon the obedient, and curses upon the disobedient." E. G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 1, 123. End Ron’s Comment.


I will say in the fear and love of God, I know the Lord has thoughts of love and mercy to restore and heal them of all their backslidings. He has a work for His church to do. THEY ARE NOT TO BE PRONOUNCED BABYLON, but to be as the salt of the earth, the light of the world. They are to be the living messengers to proclaim a living message in these last days.  {2SM 67.2}

 

Ron’s Comments:

 

·      If the church militant was restored from all its backslidings, Ezekiel 9 would never be literally fulfilled within its courts. Ellen White says that chapter will be literally fulfilled.

·      Isaiah 62 says very plainly who is to be the light of the world. All the world will see her righteousness. It is Zion, and Zion is the prime player in the Bible. You had better know who Zion is. She is the bride that is married, verses 1-5. That is the church triumphant, obviously! Even Jesus’ church had serious faults in the person of His very disciples. But they did not join in any liaison with Babylon. Jesus does not marry a harlot. God does not choose a harlot as a bride for His Son.

 

Isaiah Chapter 62

1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.

4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,

7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:

9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness.

10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.

11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

 

More proof that Zion is the church triumphant and not any church militant (wheat and tare co-ed church):

 

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Hebrews 12:22, 23.

 

“All the disciples had serious faults when Jesus called them to His service. Even John, who came into closest association with the meek and lowly One, was not himself naturally meek and yielding. He and his brother were called ‘the sons of thunder’. . Jesus reproved His disciples, He warned and cautioned them; but John and his brethren did not leave Him; they chose Jesus, notwithstanding the reproofs. The Saviour did not withdraw from them because of their weakness and errors. They continued to the end to share His trials and to learn the lessons of His life. By beholding Christ, they became transformed in character.”—Desire of Ages, 294-296. End Ron’s comment.

And again the quote that refers to the kind of work that Ron and many other critics do exactly:
It will be found that those who bear false messages will not have a high sense of honor and integrity.  They will deceive the people, and mix up with their error the Testimonies of Sister White, and use her name to give influence to their work.  They make such selections from the Testimonies as they think they can twist to support their positions, and place them in a setting of falsehood, so that their error may have weight, and be accepted by the people. They misinterpret and misapply that which God has given to the church to warn, counsel, reprove, comfort, and encourage those who shall make up the remnant people of God.  Those who receive the Testimonies as the message of God, will be helped and blessed thereby; but those who take them in parts, simply to support some theory or idea of their own, to vindicate themselves in a course of error, will not be blessed and benefited by what they teach.  To claim that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, is to make the same claim as does Satan, who is an accuser of the brethren, who accuses them before God night and day.  By this misusing of the Testimonies, souls are placed in perplexity, because they cannot understand the relation of the Testimonies to such a position as is taken by those in error; for God intended that the Testimonies should always have a setting in the frame-work of truth. {TM 42.1}
Gotta go, God bless,
Bryan

 

Ron comments: I would never claim that the true SDA church is Babylon. I would have no qualms claiming that a New Movement masquerading as the SDA church, and which has removed God, is indeed part of Babylon. 1SM 204-5.

It is indeed a lack of honor and integrity to misrepresent and misinterpret the promises of God and Ellen White to the church as UNCONDITIONAL. Another quote used often by the person who wishes to be not be named is:

 

No advice or sanction is given in the Word of God to those who believe the third angel's message to lead them to suppose that they can draw apart. This you may settle with yourselves forever. It is the devising of unsanctified minds that would encourage a state of disunion…. There must be no separating in this great testing time. (Selected Messages, Vol. 3, p. 21.)

 

Ron responds: The qualifying words in the above statement are “to those who believe the third angel’s message.” It is manifest unbelief in those messages to grossly violate them via ecumenical fraternity with Babylon. The following message is partially apropos at this time in the history of the professing New Movement SDA church. I say “partially,” because many of Sessler’s quotes with ellipses are taken deceptively out of context. Nearly every quote is includes ellipses which would involve a monumental task to validate for correctness. This is why I have never endorsed Robert Sessler’s work as a whole.

 

http://www.lightministries.com/SDA/Booklets/id119.htm

 

 "The Lord Jesus will always have a chosen people to serve Him. When the Jewish people rejected Christ, the Prince of life. He took from them the kingdom of God and gave it unto the Gentiles. God will continue to work on this principle with every branch of His work. When a church proves unfaithful to the work of the Lord, whatever their position may be, however high and sacred their calling, the Lord can no longer work with them. Others are then chosen to bear important responsibilities. But, if these in turn do not purify their lives from every wrong action, if they do not establish pure and holy principles in all their borders, then the Lord will grievously afflict and humble them and, unless they repent, will remove them from their place and make them a reproach.

God is not 'worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing' (Acts 17:25). E. G. White, The Upward Look, 131.

 

The Prophesied Fall of The Professing Seventh-day Adventist Church  The following statement applies to all fallen churches at the end-time, but especially the one to which the messages of Revelation 14 were commissioned:

 

"Jesus sends HIS PEOPLE a message of warning to prepare them for his coming. To the prophet John was made known the closing work in the great plan of man's redemption. He beheld an angel flying 'in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his Judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters [Rev. 14:6, 7.].

The angel represented in prophecy as delivering this message, symbolizes a class of faithful men, who, obedient to the promptings of God's Spirit and the teachings of his word, proclaim this warning to the inhabitants of earth. This message was not to be committed to the religious leaders of the people. They had failed to preserve their connection with God, and had REFUSED THE LIGHT FROM HEAVEN therefore they WERE NOT of the number described by the apostle Paul: 'But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day we are not of the night nor of darkness' [1 Thess. 5:4, 5].

 

The watchmen upon the walls of Zion should be the first to catch the tidings of the Saviour's advent, the first to lift their voices to proclaim him near, the first to warn the people to prepare for his coming. But they were at ease, dreaming of peace and safety, while the people were asleep in their sins. Jesus saw HIS CHURCH, like the barren fig-tree, covered with pretentious leaves, yet destitute of precious fruit. There was a boastful observance of the forms of religion, while the spirit of true humility, penitence and faith--which alone could render the service acceptable to God--was lacking. Instead of the graces of the Spirit, there were manifested pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, oppression. A BACKSLIDING CHURCH closed their eyes to the signs of the times. God did nor forsake them, or suffer his faithfulness to fail but they departed from him, and SEPARATED THEMSELVES from his love. As they  REFUSED TO COMPLY WITH THE CONDITIONS, his promises were NOT FULFILLED to them."  E.G. White, The Spirit of Prophecy,  vol. 4, pp. 199-200 [The 1884 edition of The Great Controversy, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH TESTIMONIES, VOL 4]. 

 

God bless,

 

Ron