Matthew 24 Tribulation -- Dark Ages or at End-time?
Click to go to our Home PageDear Reader, I made two different responses to
Corey. The first is in this color. The second is in this color. Corey, My comments under yours in this color. ----- Original Message ----- From: Corey To: TheGreatControversy@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Friday, March 10, 2006 2:47 PM Subject:
Re: [TheGreatControversy] Armageddon? Hello Ron, (You wrote:) From: Corey To: TheGreatControversy@yahoogroups.com Sent:
Friday, March 10, 2006 12:11 AM Subject:
Re: [TheGreatControversy] Armageddon? Ron: It appears that you and I have
different concepts of the seven churches and their eras. Though I
believe that each of the different messages to the seven church eras are descriptive of the preponderant condition of the
church in that respective era, I also believe that each stage of the church
exists in ANY GIVEN ERA of the church. Corey: I find that to be a bit difficult to
pull off, if the Savior believed that the Great Tribulation occurred once and
it is only mentioned once in the seven churches as well. They both seem
to be consistent on that one, Ron. Corey: No, the literal seven
churches were simply a tangible model on which the structure of the prophecy
was based. Folks like Balaam and Jezebel, who are discussed in the
third and fourth churches, for example, were long dead by the time John wrote
Revelation. However, in the seven churches you will notice that these
symbols come in chronological order as found in the Old Testament
historically. This further helps us to discern why it is important to
view each church independent of being merged with the details inherent in the
other churches and follow the chronology that is used in the prophecy itself.
Ron responds: I agree
that there is a literal era application for each respective
period of the church, but believe that all churches at any given point
in history have variations of all the mentions attributed to each church
specifically. I find it interesting that the last verse in the message
to Thyatira is:
Ron: God could bring great
tribulation on any church at any time. Certainly He brought great
tribulation on Corey: Yes, however, the
destruction of Ron responds: Who would deny that there are similar
practices as those of Thyatira in all formally organized churches
today? Not anyone who is informed I would dare venture! Thus,
Ezekiel 8 and 9 apply at the end-time, as every empirical evidence and Ellen
White confirm. Ron’s first response: There is
also a time of tribulation implied in Revelation 3:10, which tries all who
dwell on the earth. Corey: However, the righteous are kept from
that hour of temptation, as is evidenced in the following verse. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of
my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall
come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon
the earth. Clearly, this is not the great
tribulation, because God's
people are being kept from this hour of temptation. During the Great
Tribulation, God's people were under far much worse conditions as you can see
by reading the message to Thyatira in Revelation 2 and the Savior's comments
in Matthew 24:21-22. Ron responds: Corey, I
have a big surprise for you just a little further down!
Sorry, can't begin to agree with that one Corey. The hour of temptation
that tries the whole world will be a terrible time of bloodshed. Ellen
White says that there will be many martyrs. Just because the faithful 144,000 are
KEPT (PROTECTED), does not mean that there will not be a Great Tribulation
with many martyrs, prisoners in dungeons etc. Read The Great Controversy
for this time of the end. Ellen White says there will be a great
tribulation. I believe the following evidence says there will be: Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without
the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles,
by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs. Rev 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were
breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of
chariots of many horses running to battle. Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in
the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of
jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses [were] as the
heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and
ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat,
and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls
of men. Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven
followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and
clean. Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings,
and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses,
and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond,
both small and great. But here is my surprise for you Corey: Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these
which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came
they? Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Ron: During the Dark Ages, there
was always a faithful remnant. I believe that this link give a
reasonable and true commentary on Thyatira
ttp://www.pbc.org/dp/stedman/revelation/4192.html That is how I see it Corey. But
your certainly have every right to see it differently and I would fight for
that right! Corey: Also, in the 3rd church, the Savior
addresses those who dwell where Satan's seat is. Where in the 6th Ron responds: In the sixth
church, Corey: Ron, Feel free to convince me of
it. I am eager to find new light. Although, I'm not certain how
you see this as pertaining to Jacob's time of trouble, if you see Satan as
bowing before the feet of the righteous. As I recall, it was Jacob who
was bowing before the feet of his brother during his time of trouble, not the
other way around. Ron responds: Corey, If
Revelation 7:14 won't convince you and Dennis that there is
another GREAT TRIBULATION AT THE END, NOTHING WILL. Satan
will bow at their feet AFTER they come out of GREAT TRIBULATION: Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. The context of Revelation 7,
is the sealing of the saints, the 144,000, just before the four winds are
permitted to blow: Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the
earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of
our God in their foreheads. Rev 7:4 And I heard the number
of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty
[and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of (We continue:) Ron responds: Ellen
White says that many will be thrown into prison in the end-time Great
Tribulation conflagration. Read all about it in The Great Controversy,
The Time of Trouble, Chapter 39, p. 613. Here are a couple excerpts: As the decree
issued by the various rulers of Christendom against commandment keepers shall
withdraw the protection of government and abandon them to those who desire
their destruction, the people of God will flee from the cities and villages
and associate together in companies, dwelling in the most desolate and
solitary places. Many will find refuge in the strongholds of the mountains.
Like the Christians of the Piedmont valleys, they will make the high places
of the earth their sanctuaries and will thank God for "the munitions of
rocks." Isaiah 33:16. But many of all nations and of all classes, high
and low, rich and poor, black and white, will be cast into the most unjust
and cruel bondage. The beloved of God pass weary days, bound in chains, shut
in by prison bars, sentenced to be slain, some apparently left to
die of starvation in dark and loathsome dungeons. No human ear is open to
hear their moans; no human hand is ready to lend them help. The Great Controversy, p. 626. "When He leaves the
sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time
the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.
The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire
control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world
has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The
wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God,
persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine
grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then
plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.
As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human
passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole
world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Matthew 24
REPEATED! Yes! Ron responds: As stated immediately
above, I believe that during the hour of temptation that comes upon all the world to try them, that time will involve the test
of the mark of the Beast and persecution of the faithful resulting in many
martyrs. However, the 144,000 bride will be kept (protected) through
that time to be translated without seeing death. Corey: Ron, the nice thing about the 6th Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in
Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he
that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and
shutteth, and no man openeth; Let's see this key and why he openeth and
no man shutteth. Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from
heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
At the beginning of the 6th church, Satan
is bound up and no one can free him because it is the Savior alone who has
the key which opens and shuts his prison. With Satan out of the way,
the synagogue of Satan is without their leader. Hence, they are made to
worship at the feet of the righteous. Ron responds: Satan will
not be bound until the saints have been delivered from the earth. It is
then that he is bound for a thousand years.
But, does Revelation 20 continue with any
hint that the righteous will be placed in a ruling position? Let us
see. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat
upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that
were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which
had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his
mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with
Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not
again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath
part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but
they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a
thousand years. Now, Ron, many folks have asked who the
righteous will be reigning over during the 1000-years. Could it perhaps
be none other than the synagogue of Satan who worships at their feet that
they are reigning over? What do you think? Ron responds: We do not dwell on
this earth for the 1,000 years. We are caught up in the air to meet the
Lord. Satan will impersonate the second coming and will touch down on
earth. Thus those who know the truth will not worship him. Satan
will worship at the feet of the saints only figuratively. For after the
thousand years is over, he gathers his forces for battle ONE MORE TIME. The 144,000 are the righteous saints
and they will be reigning over the great numberless multitude. The
bride is not the guests and the guests are not the bride. GC 426-7. In
Isaiah 62, "The people of God, symbolized by
a holy woman and her children, were represented as greatly in the minority.
In the last days only a remnant still existed. Of these John speaks as they
'which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus
Christ." E. G. White, Signs of the Times, Nov. 1, 1899, and
Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 7, p. 972. The Lord has shown me that the new
converts made during the Loud Cry will need instruction. For the
one-thousand year period, they will be instructed by the bride of Christ, the
144,000, and will thus grow up in Christ and His Word. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of
my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall
come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon
the earth. The interesting thing is that this hour of
temptation will come upon all the world to try them
that dwell upon the earth. Now, Ron, for my theory to work here, I
would have to demonstrate in Revelation 20 some temptation that comes over
the whole earth, right? Well, let's continue reading Revelation 20 to
see if this actually occurs. Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are
expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the
nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog
and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the
number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Shall go out to deceive the nations which
are in the four quarters of the earth??? Could it be that the hour of
temptation that comes over all the earth is none other than Satan's last and
final deception before he is destroyed in the battle of Gog
and Magog? Hey, it looks like Revelation
20:1-8 and the message to the 6th church fit together like a hand and glove
to me, Ron. What do you think? Ron responds: Wrong
hand, wrong glove, wrong occasion. The battle
of Armageddon is similar to that of Gog and Magog after the Millennium. Armageddon is at the time of the plagues.
Any teaching that allows a millennial reign on this earth, prepares folk to
worship Satan when he impersonates the second coming and touches down on
earth. Corey, there is no trying (testing) of the world AFTER the
Millennium. The great test comes before
the close of probation. The saints ( (We continue:) Ron
speaking: For example, though the
church of today is "The names of the seven churches are
symbolic of the church in different periods of the Christian Era. The number
indicates completeness, and is symbolic of the fact that the messages
[plural] extend to the end of time, while the symbols used reveal the
condition of the church [collectively and generally] at different periods in
the history of the world." E.G. White, The Acts of the Apostles, 585. I believe Ellen White's saying that all
the messages extend (and thus apply) to the end of time. Corey: She probably should have read the Ron responds: Corey, in
defense of Ellen White, she did carefully consider To the church of the present day this
message is sent. I call upon our church members to read the whole
of the third chapter of Revelation, and to make an application of it.
The message to the church of the Laodiceans applies especially to the people
of God today. It is a message to professing Christians who have become
so much like the world that no difference can be seen (vs. 14-18 quoted] (RH
Aug. 20, 1903). SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 7a, p. 959. Revelation 3 begins with Sardis and
includes Philadelphia and Loadicea Corey: But, if she would have further
compared this churches message to the parable of the 10 virgins, she might
have figured out not only who these two groups are that are being judged for
their works, but also more telling information on what the Investigative
judgment is all about. Ron responds: Me thinks the Holy Spirit gift to the church knew
what she was talking about and what the Investigative Judgment is all about. (Ron continues:) Corey: And Paul believed the Savior would
return in his day. Ron, that event never happened as Paul so strongly
hoped. EGW had similar hopes. She and many of the pioneers wanted
to believe they were living in Ron responds: James White said
that "The members of the church
triumphant--the church in heaven--will be permitted to draw near to the
members of the church militant, to aid them in their necessity." E. G.
White, The Southern Watchman, Sep. 8, 1903. The Holy Spirit is not as dumb as some
think! Ellen White defined The Spirit of Prophecy Identifies "And to the angel of the church in
Philadelphia write: These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He
that hath the key of David, He that openeth, ad no man shutteth and shutteth,
and no man openeth I know thy works" behold, I have set before thee an
open door, and no man can shut it for thou hast a little strength, and hast
kept My word, and hast not denied My name. Behold, I will make them of the
synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie behold,
I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have
loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep
thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all
the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come
quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that
overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no
more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the
city of My God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from
My God and I will write upon him My new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev. 3:7-13. These are they which were not defiled
with women for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb
whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first
fruit unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guild for
they are without fault before the throne of God. Rev. 14:4, 5." E.G.
White, Early Writings, p. 30. Corey Bray, Ellen White knew what she
was talking about. She knew that the 144,000 were Philadelphians.
That is another evidence that the MESSAGES, PLURAL,
all seven, apply till the end of time.
Ron speaking : She said
elsewhere that all the messages (plural)
I believe Ellen White's saying that all
the messages extend (and thus apply) to the end of time. I agree with Ellen White. Corey: Furthermore, if you know that the
Great Tribulation occurs during the Dark Ages in the fourth church and that
the Savior is conducting the Investigative judgment on two different groups
in the fifth church, where one group will walk with him in white, then
Adventism and EGW would finally have evidence of the Investigative Judgment
located in the proper spot on the time line to harass the critics with.
Something our church has suffered with trying to prove solidly for more than
a century was right under our noses all along. Can you believe that? Ron responds: I concur
that a great tribulation occurred during the Dark Ages, but not THE Great
Tribulation. Common sense dictates that the end-time trumpets and
plagues accompanying the test to all the world, the three angel's messages,
to be concluded with the eradication of sin and sinners cast into the lake of
fire with Satan and his angels, will constitute the largest death toll and
the Greatest Tribulation this earth has ever experienced. The death of
all unrepentant sinners will make the death toll of the Dark Ages pale into
something far less in significance. This is common sense
theology. That is what I am appealing to. If you want to try to
tell me that the number of deaths in the Dark Ages was more than the number
of persons cast into the lake of fire at the end-time, I will have to kindly
disagree and love you anyway. Corey : I hardly see the lake of fire as being some Great
tribulation. More like rapid incineration. In any case, when the
Savior speaks of Great Tribulation in Matthew 24, he points this out as an
event occurring before the second coming and doesn't make any mention of
God's seven plagues or the lake of fire either one. Rather, his concern
seems to be more for the well being of the elect as he calls them. Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without
the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles,
by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs. Rev 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were
breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of
chariots of many horses running to battle. Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in
the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of
jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses [were] as the
heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and
ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat,
and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls
of men. Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven
followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and
clean. Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings,
and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses,
and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond,
both small and great. But here is my surprise for you Corey:
Rev 7:14 And
I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came
out of great
tribulation, and have
washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Ron responds: Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one
great, final trouble.
As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human
passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole
world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Matthew 24
REPEATED? Yes! As Ellen White said,
the entire chapter will be repeated: Matthew 24
"When He referred to the destruction of Jerusalem, His prophetic words
reached beyond that even to the final conflagration in that day when the Lord
shall rise out of His place to punish the world for their iniquity, when the
earth shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. This
entire
discourse was given, not for the disciples only, but for those who
should live in the last scenes of this earth's history." E.G.
White, Desire of Ages, p. 628. Corey: Mt 24:21 For then shall be great
tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor ever shall be. Clearly, there will be no greater time of
tribulation than is mentioned in the above verse. Mt 24:22 And except those days should be
shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those
days shall be shortened. Now, if the Great Tribulation concerns
throwing people into the lake of fire, then why would the Savior be worried
about the well being of his elect above? Surely the Savior knows that
the elect are not in any danger, provided that God punishes the wicked and
doesn't make any mistakes and accidentally throw a righteous person into the
lake of fire. I am sorry, Ron, but common sense theology would suggest
that the Savior disagrees with the idea that the destruction of the wicked
constitutes the greatest tribulation of all time. It isn't an issue of
how many people are killed, Ron! The issue is the duration of the
tribulation. There is no longer
time of tribulation anywhere in the prophecies other than the 1260-years of
the Dark Ages. Even if God started pouring out his plagues now, the
end of the prophetic time line would come long before he would reach
1260-years. Also, no references in the Bible that I am aware of speak
of God's trumpets, plagues, or the lake of fire as being some "great
tribulation". So, perhaps you can help me out here by providing
some verses to show that they are to support your view more thoroughly.
Because it is difficult to make the connections with lacking references in
Scripture, wouldn't you agree? Ron's response: Revelation 7:14,
proves that there is another great tribulation: Rev 7:14 And
I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which
came out of great
tribulation, and have
washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Time or duration of
tribulation is not the only factor. Scope and intensity will more than trump
the 1260 year Dark Ages debacle. This will involve the entire world and
billions of people. Sure, the final events will be rapid, but deadly! Ron speaking: Regarding your verse:
***Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery
with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. I do not for an instant believe that the great tribulation mentioned by John
necessarily refers to the Great time of Jacob's trouble (tribulation) at the
end. As Dennis correctly asserts, there was great tribulation in the
Dark Ages, what with the persecution suffered by the church in the
Wilderness. In fact, Dennis regards that time as the GREATEST time of
tribulation ever to be. It is obvious
to my mind that the greatest time of trouble known to man will be at the
end-time when the entire world is involved in the testing message of the Loud
Cry of the three angels. Corey : But, the Ron responds: Corey, first of all
the great tribulation of the Dark Ages is not the only mention of Great
Tribulation. Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying
unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and
whence came they? Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These
are they which came out of great tribulation, and
have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Ron responds: There have been many times
of great tribulation in past history. The Greatest will be the
destruction of sin and sinners in the lake of fire. The following
verses and all that predicates them will constitute the Greatest Tribulation
know to man: Rev 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles
before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of
the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive
into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire
and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be
tormented day and night for ever and ever. Corey : If you mean by "Great Tribulation" that
you ascribe to the eternal torment of the soul idea, I will have to disagree
with you here. But, I am not clear on your view of the state of the
dead issue, so I will hold back further commenting along these lines and give
you an opportunity to clarify your position on the state of the dead before
continuing along this path. Rev 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This
is the second death. Rev 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into
the lake of fire. Corey: But, Ron, none of these verses speak
of a "Great Tribulation", so it is difficult to insure that this is
what the Savior had in mind in Matthew 24:21 when outlining the greatest
tribulation of all time. Ron responds: The second death is at Christ’s coming. Such are raised again after the 1,000 years
and they come from their graves ready to go up and take the city of Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying
unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and
whence came they? Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation, and
have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (We continue:) Ron responds: The answer
to your riddle is that all the messages applied to all the seven churches in
any given era of the church. Corey : And how does that help us, Ron? That doesn't tell us who
Antipas actually is. Mixing it up like that only serves to complicate
the issue not clarify the issue. For the life of me, I can not begin to
understand why so many Christians cannot give me a straight answer on who Antipas
is. Maybe God threw that in the prophecy as filler perhaps? Do
you see the problem there with non-explicit explanations, Ron? Ron responds: Regarding
Antipas, he was a faithful martyr who typified the untold thousands who
suffered for their faith in later ages.
The name may also have a figurative application to the Pergamos period of church history. The true church has always
been persecuted. The worst times of
tribulation were during the Dark Ages and the Reformation. Recall the martyrs
of the Reformation. Read The Great
Controversy on the trouble during that period of the church. True Reformers have had trouble with the
ecclesiastical leaders of the church in every succeeding generation since
Christ: “As the
light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the
days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeeding generation. Again
and again the history of Christ's withdrawal from That having been said, the
worst time of trouble, THE Great Time of Jacob’s Trouble, is at the end of
all things. Time span as in the Dark
Ages is not the factor. The number of
deaths and the scope and intensity of the conflict will be worse at the
end—though the final events will be rapidly fulfilled. Ron : Every rudiment of each of the messages
did not necessarily accrue in all eras of the church. For example,
faithful Philadelphians, blameless, existed in each era of the church.
They were always the faithful remnant of all ages. But the hour of
temptation which comes upon ALL THE WORLD TO TRY THEM THAT DWELL ON EARTH, is
at the very end of time. Corey: Unfortunately, this does
not tell us how to do this sort of picking and choosing. We need a rule
to use by which to make such an assessment for which elements are
transitional and which are not, if you are going to push this view. Or,
people will get confused in the application of the seven churches not knowing
what to make transitional and what to leave fixed in its own time period.
Ron responds: The rule is to interpret both Bible and SOP
so that nothing contradicts. That
would bring us all into agreement and no one would be confused. God bless, Ron P.S. I still love and respect
you even if you think I am stupid and non-progressive as you and Dennis deem
yourselves. Corey : Ron, I don't think you are stupid.
In fact, you have shown a major improvement in organizing your thoughts since
our old debates back on SDAIssues forum. And
neither Dennis nor myself believe we have the final
word on what constitutes the truth. We are simply ready to defend our
positions. But, the problem is that people start to get intimidated if
we make them go more than a few rounds. Most people do not have enough
experience or ammunition to handle a serious theological discussion,
Ron. Others suffer from lack of confidence and/or start whining every
time they can't have their way. We can't force people to advance,
Ron. People have to want to do that on their own and muster up the
courage to come out fighting for their beliefs. Those who don't cheat
themselves out of the most important education of their lifetime and allow
others to choose for them what they will believe. And if my ideas are
progressive, then blame EGW. She taught me the concept of advancing the
present truth. You know, Adventists used to be very progressive in
their thinking, Ron! If our pioneers were alive today, they would weep
and lament over what has happened to the Adventist faith. Ron responds
: I want progressive thinking, but only when it builds on Scripture
and the Spirit of Prophecy--never when it disparages either. Then, and
then only it anything progressive to me. That is just my humble opinion
for which I beg your indulgence. Corey : Ron, I respect your opinion here. At one time
EGW said something to the effect of "We have many things to learn and
many things to unlearn". She said, "we", because she
knew that even in her own writings there were ideas that were not well
thought out and needed serious help. She knew it, her critics knew it,
and Adventists today know it. It's just people are afraid to take the
bull by the horns and do the necessary homework and make the necessary
changes to the understanding she held to produce a doctrinal structure that
can actually be defended. Rather, folks belly ache every time someone
points out a problem in EGW then they wonder why on earth the church never
makes any advances. It is because these folks are standing in the way
of the ever advancing truth. Plain and simple! By the way, Ron, have a
nice day. I'm going to go out and enjoy the sunshine. It is
beautiful out. Take care, brother. Corey... Ron’s Conclusions: · I respect your right to opinion also
Corey, but I respect Ellen White's more. She was all for progressive
thinking as we both know. However, there is
one huge factor you do not consider when you stress progressive thinking. She
said that it would build on truth and not tear down the old. Concerning
the many things to learn and unlearn, I don't believe we will have to unlearn
major teachings like the Investigative judgment. There is no problem
with the historic view unless you read the words "then shall the
sanctuary be cleansed" wrong. What the words mean is the Sanctuary
would begin to be cleansed and would indeed be cleansed BEFORE Christ comes
out of the heavenly Sanctuary. · Corey and Dennis: The big problem with
your view that the Sanctuary was cleansed at the end of the 2300 days as a
completed act THEN, is the fact that the High Priest
always came out of the Sanctuary immediately after its cleansing. What
is Jesus waiting for according to your view of the Sanctuary being cleansed
if it was cleansed long ago? ·
Philadelphia
is tried (tested) in a time of trial for the whole earth. I proved that
she is made a pillar in the temple and that she comes out of THE great
tribulation. This is most compelling to me that Ellen White was correct
concerning the great time of Jacob's trouble. I just want folk to be
broad minded and consider this option as I am considering your option. Revelation 7
Note: See the following link to find that all of
eight translations but two, refer to the great tribulation as THE, meaning
ONE great tribulation. The Great Tribulation Compare the
above with the message to Philadelphia. Above we have the 144,000 who
go through THE Great Tribulation. The serve in HIS
TEMPLE. Below, Philadelphians are made PILLARS (LEADERS), in the temple
of God. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my
patience, *I* also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about
to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 I come quickly: hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown. 12 He that overcomes, him
will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more
at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the
city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my
God, and my new name. Rev. 3:10-12. So I conclude
that Philaldelphia, the 144,000, go through THE
GREAT TRIBULATION. They are sealed just before the four winds
blow. After they are sealed they appear in heaven where: They shall not
hunger any more, neither shall they thirst any more, nor shall the sun at all
fall on them, nor any burning heat; 17 because the Lamb which is
in the midst of the throne shall shepherd them, and shall lead them to
fountains of waters of life, and God shall wipe away every tear from their
eyes. Hope you did have a nice day
Corey. Enjoyed dialoguing with you. God bless and a blessed Sabbath to you
and yours, Ron |