David Curtis Responds to Ron--Ron Responds to David

Omega Ministries Web Page, The Loud Cry Responds again

First let me commend the operator of the Omega Ministries. Wooohooo!!!! I give you more credit than Nicholas at least you are not ducking and hiding avoiding the issues!!! Hats off to you brother, Big hug from brother David.

Ron responds: Thank you David. My responses are under yours in red print. You will find that indeed I do not avoid issues. I think this document will further convince you of that. If you appreciate that, I am in for a lot of hugs. (smile)

We are back to the original issue once again CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT!!!!!!! Should I say that again?

Quoted on Omega Web Site,
"In Isaiah 4:1-4 and Isaiah 37:31, 32, seven women represent ALL formally organized churches. They are all doing their own thing at the end-time. Only a remnant escapes, Ezekiel 5:1-3 and Isaiah 37:31, 32. Ezekiel 9 is of end-time relevance per Ezekiel 5:9, because it is at the end-time that God does the worst thing He has ever done or ever will do, compare Matthew 24:21. "

The Loud Cry Responds,

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Ron responds: Yes indeed Ellen White does comment on the number seven. Notice:

"Seven, God's Symbol of COMPLETENESS.--The Christ of Patmos had in His right hand SEVEN stars. This assures us that no church faithful to their trust need fear of coming to naught; for not a star that has the protection of Omnipotence can be plucked from the hand of Christ. If a star separated itself from God, and falls from its setting, another will take its place. There will never be less than SEVEN, this number being God's symbol of COMPLETENESS.--E.G. White, Ms la, 1890.

Ron responds: As you state above David, "...women in prophecy represents a church Jeremiah 5:2.

Now we need to ask the question did the seven churches all refuse the apparel of Christ? Did they all refuse the word of God? Not at all! Some Churches are commended for their faithfulness, and obedience of the word of God. Therefore I can not with confidence say that the 7 churches are the 7 women of Isaiah 4:1-4. The description of Isaiah 4:1-4 may fit a given church in Revelation chapters 2-3, but it does not fit all seven churches!

Ron responds: We must differentiate between visible organized church militants and the true "invisible" church of faithful who are dwelling with tares and thus we cannot now distinguish (visualize) the true from the false, because where we see rich fields of wheat, it may be nothing more than dross, tares. The seven churches I refer to are all inclusive of every formally organized church militant who have wheat and tares intermingled. The remnant will leave these churches, Isaiah 37:31, 32. Are Isaiah's writings pertinent to us today? I will let Ellen White and Scripture answer that question:

"The Bible Prophets Wrote for Our Time.--Never are we absent from the mind of God. God is our joy and our salvation. Each of the ancient prophets spoke less for their own time than for ours, so that their prophesying is in force for us. 'Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come' (! Cor. 10:11). 'Not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into' (1 Peter 1:12).'" E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 3, p. 338.

So David, I do not believe I was remiss in concluding that Isaiah 37:31, 32 applies to us. Another critical proof that this is the case is Ellen White's statement in The Great Controversy, p. 25, that the destruction of Jerusalem was a PREFIGURE. That destruction was a manifestation of Ezekiel 9. She then says that Ezekiel 9 is literally fulfilled again 'BEGINNING AT HIS SANCTUARY--THE HOUSE OF JACOB, Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211.

Mind the CONTEXT of the following statement:

"Study the 9th chapter of Ezekiel. These words will be literally fulfilled; yet the time is passing, and the people are asleep. They refuse to humble their souls and to be converted. Not a great while longer will the Lord bear with the people who have such great and important truths revealed to them, but who refuse to bring these truths into their individual experience. The time is short. God is calling; will YOU hear? Will YOU receive His message? Will YOU be converted before it is too late? Soon, very soon, every case will be decided for eternity. Letter 106, 1909, pp. 2, 3, 5, 7. (To "The churches in Oakland and Berkeley, September 26, 1909.)" E. G. White Manuscript Releases Volume One, p. 260.

SDA's who are misinterpreting Ellen White's statements on Babylon to mean that the church could never become a part of it, a daughter, had better take the above statement very seriously, because any literal fulfillment of Ezekiel 9 would mean similar destruction as took place in the PREFIGURE TYPE of A.D. 70. Ellen White is speaking UNCONDITIONALLY to SDA's. She says Ezekiel 9 WILL BE literally fulfilled. The only valid counterpart to the Jews, God's "chosen" people, are SDA's who make the same claim.

COUNTERPART: "The Lord commanded one of his ancient servants, 'Pray not thou for this people [Jer. 7:16 and 11:14], neither lift up cry nor prayer for them; neither make intercession to me; for I will not hear thee.' The prophet thus describes the sins which had called forth this fearful denunciation: 'The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so; and what will ye do in the end thereof?' 'From the least of them even unto the greatest of them, every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest, every one dealeth falsely. They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace, when there is no peace.' The apostles declare that the state of things will find its COUNTERPART in the last days. Many have a form of godliness, but in their daily life deny the power thereof. They have ceased to be convicted of their sins or alarmed at their state. They say in their hearts, 'The church is flourishing. Peace and spiritual prosperity are within her borders.' The words of the prophet may well apply to these self-deceivers, 'They have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them." E. G. White, Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 11-07-82.

COUNTERPART: "In the time of the Saviour, the Jews had so covered over the precious jewels of truth with the rubbish of tradition and fable, that it was impossible to distinguish the true from the false. The Saviour came to clear away the rubbish of superstition and long-cherished errors, and to set the jewels of God's word in the framework of truth. What would the Saviour do if he should come to us now as he did to the Jews? He would have to do a similar work in clearing away the rubbish of tradition and ceremony. The Jews were greatly disturbed when he did this work [As are SDAs today!]. They had lost sight of the original truth of God, but Christ brought it again to view. It is our work to free the precious truths of God from superstition and error." E.G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 2, 308.

There is a modern COUNTERPART to the ancient apostate "chosen people" of God. That modern COUNTERPART is the people who claim to be the modern "chosen people" of God, the remnant, if you will.

There are over 100 statements to the affect that SDAs are repeating the history of ancient Israel. Here are just a few of them:

"I have been shown that the spirit of the world is fast leavening the church. You are following the same path as did ancient Israel. There is the same falling away from your holy calling as God's peculiar people. You are having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. Your [ecumenical] concord with unbelievers have provoked he Lord's displeasure. You know not the things that belong to your peace, and they are fast being hid from your eyes. [The very words applied to fallen Israel on page 17 of The Great Controversy] Your neglect to follow the light will place you in a more unfavorable position than the Jews upon whom Christ pronounced a woe." Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 75-76.

"Like ancient Israel, the church has dishonored her God by departing from the light, neglecting her duties, and abusing her high and exalted privilege of being peculiar and holy in character. Her members have violated their covenant to live for God and him only. They have joined with the selfish and world-loving. Pride, the love of pleasure, and sin have been cherished, and CHRIST HAS DEPARTED. His Spirit has been quenched in the church. Satan works wide by side with professed Christians; yet they are so destitute of spiritual discernment that they do not detect him." E.G. White, Testimonies,vol. 2, pp. 441-442.

"Among the professed followers of Christ, there is the same pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, and OPPRESSION, that existed in the Jewish nation." E.G. White, Sketches from the Life of Paul, 251-252.

"God's professed people are selfish and self-caring....They are idolaters, and are worse, in the sight of God, than the heathen, graven-image worshippers who have had no knowledge of a better way." Testimonies, vol. 2, 441-442.

Am I remiss in observing (reasoning) that worse than heathen, graven-image worshippers, means worse than Babylon? Especially after knowing the truth and a knowledge of a better way! If I am how and why? and if I am I apologize. By the above statement it is flattery, presumption, and patronization error to refer to the apostate SDA church as Babylon! No, let it not be said by anyone that Ron Beaulieu believes the church is Babylon! I concur with Ellen White that God's professed people are worse than Babylonian heathen graven image idol worshippers! Worse than Catholics! Worse than the great Whore! Why? Because they had the light of truth and have willfully united with the great whore in business partnership! Ellen White said we are never to unite with unbelievers in business partnership, let alone the great Whore of Babylon!

"Now it is just EXACTLY as in the days of the Jews. When a message came in, why all the power of the leaders [such some leaders on this forum] WAS PUT AGAINST IT, THAT IT SHOULD NOT HAVE ACCESS TO THE PEOPLE. Now, brethren, GO TO GOD FOR YOURSELVES, and on your knees plead with God...If God sends us light, let it come to us, and let no man close the door, or try to close it. Don't close it yourselves. Open the door of your heart and let the brilliant rays of light shine into your heart and into your mind. I pray you, let the Sun of Righteousness in." E.G. White, Manuscript Release #900, Manuscript 9, 1890. 1888 Materials, p. 541.

Dear Brother, On the basis of scripture I am not able to give you a defined Thus saith the Lord stating the 7 women are so and so. You may be willing to do so as is your right, but on this point the Spirit of Prophecy is silent, and the scriptures are unclear. The Bible gives no other place leaving no other grounds to interpret the 7 women of Isaiah 4. Can you define these verses confidently to be directed in anyway to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, not on the basis of private interpretation that may conveniently fit your views, but rather on sound Biblical interpretation? Impossible!

Ron responds: As stated earlier, Ellen White said that the ancient prophets wrote more for us unto the ends of the world is come:

"The Bible Prophets Wrote for Our Time.--Never are we absent from the mind of God. God is our joy and our salvation. Each of the ancient prophets spoke less for their own time than for ours, so that their prophesying is in force for us. 'Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come' (! Cor. 10:11). 'Not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into' (1 Peter 1:12).'" E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 3, p. 338.

"And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward. For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of Mount Zion: the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this. {RH, June 3, 1915 par. 4}

Omega Web page says,

If Willie White and/or Ellen White is guilty of the above sentiments as stated by Willie, they both would contradict Ezekiel 5:1-3, in which a remnant escape and then the remaining three thirds is destroyed. They would violate Isaiah 37:31, 31. They would make Ellen White contradict herself when she said that Ezekiel 9 would be literally repeated "beginning at His Sanctuary, the House of Jacob," Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211.

The Loud Cry Reponds,

Do you my dear brother put your own interpretations of scripture above clearly revealed light of the Spirit of Prophecy? Is it possible your interpretation of Isaiah 37:31,32 needs re-examination? Is it possible it only applies to Ancient Israel as Sister White indicates? Is it possible you have stayed up late looking at these verses in Ezekiel and Isaiah.

Ron responds: David, in light of Ellen White's statement that Ezekiel 9 is literally fulfilled again and her statement that A.D. 70 was a PREFIGURE of another fulfillment which would "begin at His sanctuary"....those who had been priviledged with great light," Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211, Isaiah 37:31, 32 is appropos and may be re-applied to the experience of Seventh-day Adventists, especially when observed in light of Isaiah 4:1-4, which I elaborated on earlier in this reply.

In light of your misconceptions concerning the number seven and Ellen White's and Scripture's re-application of the ancient prophets to our time etc., etc., is it possible that you have not stayed up late enough looking at these verses in Ezekiel and Isaiah and their CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. For example, Isaiah 4:1-4 is speaking of the daughters of Zion, the churches. For another example, Ezekiel 5:9, speaks of the worst thing God ever did or will ever again do. Did that occur in A.D. 70 or at any other time in history except at the end-time as depicted in Matthew 24:21? I say what I have said kindness with no malice whatsoever. Truth is its own defense if all the facts are known.

Ron Beaulieu