Ron's Response to David Curtis'
Response to Nick Petula
Dear Reader,
I have had an open challenge on my Website
to David M. Curtis for some time. He
seems to choose to avoid that challenge in pursuit of Robert Sessler and Nic
Petula, so I will respond to David’s response to them. The name of David M. Curtis’ Ministry is The Loud Cry. So let’s investigate to see if indeed David
Curtis and the SDA church is qualified to give the Loud Cry message.
Confidential posted the following dialog on
an SDA Internet forum. I will designate
all of my responses as Ron’s Commentary and in this font color. Confidential has said recently that I have
not offered enough evidence on the abominations of the church, so this item
will provide evidence that he can verify right from the SDA church’s official
organ, the Adventist Review.
----- Original Message -----
From: Confidential
To: <SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:41 PM
Subject: [SDAIssues] The Loud Cry responds to
Nicholas's SDA Apostasy site
Does Sister White say the GC SDA can
become Babylon?
"If the church of God becomes lukewarm, it does not stand in favour with God any more than do the churches that are represented
as having fallen and become the habitation of devils and the hold of every
foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird." Letter 35,
1898, p. 6-7
"We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and
filled with every foul spirit, and cage of every unclean and hateful
bird." Letter 51, 9/6/1886
The Loud Cry Responds
"How dare mortal man pass his
judgment upon them, and call the church a
harlot, Babylon, a den of thieves, a cage of every unclean and hateful
bird, the habitation of devils, making the nations drunk with the wine of her
fornication, confederating with the kings and great men of the earth, waxing
rich through the abundance of her delicacies, and proclaiming that her sins
have reached unto heaven and God hath remembered her iniquities? Is this the
message we have to bear to Seventh-day Adventists? I tell you No! God has
given no man any such message. Let these men humble their hearts before God, and in true contrition repent that they have even for
a time stood by the side of the accuser of the brethren who accused them
before God day and night. .
. ." {RH, November 8, 1956 par.
17}
Ron responds: David M. Curtis, of The Loud Cry Ministry,
responds to Ellen White’s statements that the church could indeed become a
sister to fallen Babylon by giving another of her statements which implies that no man can
decipher if and when the church should ever become a sister to fallen Babylon. Now that is a strange turn of events. According
to David Curtis, God told us that the church could become a harlot of Babylon, and then left
us in complete darkness as to whether or not the church should ever fulfill
that possibility. That simply is
not true. God and Ellen White gave us
signs and told us specifically when to separate from apostasy. It would be totally unreasonable for God
and/or Ellen White to have done anything else. The following signs were given to mortal man
that he might know when the church had become a harlot beyond any point of
return. Here is that sure evidence
given to mortal man:
Jeremiah 11
1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, 2
Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to
the inhabitants of Jerusalem; 3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith
the LORD God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this
covenant, 4 Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I
brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying,
Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye
be my people, and I will be your God: 5 That I may perform the
oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land flowing with
milk and honey, as it is this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O
LORD. 6 Then the LORD said unto me, Proclaim all these words in
the cities of Judah, and
in the streets of Jerusalem,
saying, Hear ye the words of this covenant, and do them. 7 For I
earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out
of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting,
saying, Obey my voice. 8 Yet
they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the
imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the
words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do: but they did them not.
9 And the LORD said unto me, A
conspiracy is found among
the men of Judah, and
among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers,
which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them:
the house of Israel and
the house of Judah
have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. 11
Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I
will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though
they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. 12 Then
shall the cities of Judah
and inhabitants of Jerusalem
go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not
save them at all in the time of their trouble. 13 For according to
the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah; and according to the number
of the streets of Jerusalem
have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense
unto Baal. 14 Therefore
pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for
I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble. 15
What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness
with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then
thou rejoicest.
Israel and Judah played the harlot with
God’s enemies by conspiring with them and making alliances with them. That was God’s line in the sand. Jeremiah 11:9-15, details the event stating
the violation and God’s response to it.
What was that violation and what was God's response?:
·
Israel conspired with God’s enemies.
·
They
returned to the iniquities of their forefathers in violation of God’s
commandments.
·
They
violated the commands of Isaiah 8:9-13.
·
This
was so serious that God instructed Jeremiah not to even pray for Israel’s
violation of His commands and further said that if Jeremiah did so pray, that
God would not hear or answer his prayer.
This implies unpardonable violation of God’s commands in this regard.
·
God
asked what his beloved (bride) had to do in His house (church Temple) any more, since
that church had wrought lewdness with many.
She refers to His church.
·
The
Holy flesh (God), passed from Israel,
(was removed) by that act of conspiracy with God enemies.
·
Instead
of sorely repenting, Israel
celebrated like SDA’s formed Celebration churches after conspiring with God’s
enemies in violation of the first and second angel’s messages.
·
It
is clear for any with spiritual discernment to see God’s line in the sand in
this ensample for us, for God and Ellen White say that ALL the ancient
prophets wrote more for us than for the Jews.
God said it was all written for us in the end of the world.
So the great test question is:
Has the SDA church conspired with God’s enemies, Babylon? In the late 1980’s, the Adventist Review
admitted that the SDA church has been a MEMBER of the Council of Free
Churches in HunConfidentialfor thirty (30) years. That council is the National Council of
Churches in Hungary. The only way a church becomes a MEMBER of
the World Council of Churches, is by becoming a member of one or more
National Councils. National Councils
and local Ministerial Associations, are both subsidiaries of the World
Council of Churches.
Any concerned Seventh-day
Adventist can verify this account of the church being in liaison with Babylon’s Associations,
Councils, and Confederacies for over 30 years in the 1980’s. There was a big
revolt by upwards of a thousand SDA members of the church in Hungary. The protesters were barred from their
church on Sabbath mornings by body guards being placed at the doors. Those members had used their funds to build
the church, but yet they were barred from entrance.
Neal C. Wilson, General
Conference President, went to speak to the “dissenting” members in Hungary. I have a tape of his message to them. He told the members that it would have been
better if the church had not become MEMBERS, but since the church did such,
it would be better just to accept it and not make such a fuss about it. There was no apology and repentance by the
SDA church, for joining forces with Babylon. The church is still joined to Babylon in a number of
countries of the world, but this particular was admitted by the church only
because it was forced to admit it when upwards of a thousand Hungarians or
more openly revolted in protest.
In other words, that would be
like God telling Israel
through His prophets to them, that it would have been better if they had not
conspired with His enemies, but since they did, it would be okay, and there
should be no further fuss about it.
Just maintain unity at all costs, as the principal of unity is greater
than the three angel’s messages forbidding unity with Babylon’s Association, Councils, Girdings
and Confederacies.
Did the SDA church form a
conspiracy with Babylon
by joining the Hungarian Free Council of Churches for thirty years without
informing its members? What is a conspiracy
Has the SDA Church Conspired With Babylon?
To discover the answer to this all
important question involving violation of the first and second angel’s
messages, which The Loud Cry Ministry, purports to believe and teach, we
should define our terms. Let’s examine
all the meanings of the word conspiracy as used in Jeremiah 9:11-15.
con·spir·a·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-spîr-s)
n. pl. con·spir·a·cies
1.
An
agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive
act.
2.
A group of
conspirators.
3.
Law. An agreement between two or more persons to
commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
4.
A joining or acting
together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated
coastal areas.
[Middle English conspiracie, from Anglo-Norman,
probably alteration of Old French
conspiration, from Latin cnsprti, cnsprtin-, from cnsprtus, past participle of cnsprre, to conspire. See conspire.]
|
[
Source: The
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
|
Main
Entry: con·spir·a·cy
Pronunciation: k&n-'spir-&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural -cies
Etymology: Latin conspiratio, from conspirare to conspire —see CONSPIRE
1 : an agreement between two or more people to commit an act
prohibited by law or to commit a lawful act by means prohibited by law; also
: the crime or tort of participating in a conspiracy —compare SUBSTANTIVE
CRIME
NOTE: Some states require an overt act in addition to the agreement to
constitute conspiracy.
chain conspiracy
: a conspiracy in which the conspirators act separately and
successively (as in distributing narcotics)
civil conspiracy
: a conspiracy that is not prosecuted as a crime but that forms the
grounds for a lawsuit
criminal conspiracy
: a conspiracy prosecuted as a crime
2 : a group of conspirators
Source: Merriam-Webster's
Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
|
conspiracy
n 1: a secret agreement between two or more people to perform an
unlawful act [syn: confederacy]
2: a plot to carry out some harmful or illegal act (especially a political
plot) [syn: cabal]
3: a group of conspirators banded together to achieve some harmful or illegal
purpose [syn: confederacy]
Source: WordNet
® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
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The Implications of SDA Ecumenical Involvement
Here is a listing of the reasons
SDA’s are in conspiracy with Babylon
and the implications of so doing:
·
The
World Council of Churches itself was formed in a secret confederacy. The
Reader’s Digest published an article stating such, and saying that the WCC
would not permit reporters in its formation meetings. The WCC was conceived by Communist agencies
who could not subdue the church openly, so they decided to do it inwardly by
dialog and deception in appearing to have the interest of the church at
heart. It is obviously Satan’s plan
friends. The common self-announced
goal of the Ecumenical Movement is visible unity of all churches. Can SDA’s be in union with Babylon in violation of
the three angel’s messages?
·
This
is why the first and second angel’s messages NOW apply to the SDA church.
Notice what the SDA Bible Commentary says about the Ecumenical
Movement before the church became involved in it. The SDA BC was published in 1957. Ecumenical involvement ensued in the early
1960’s: SDA Encyclopedia on the
Ecumenical Movement—“On the basis of Bible prophecy and the writings of Ellen
G. White, SDA’s anticipate the eventual success of the ecumenical movement,
both in eliminating the divisions of Protestantism and in reuniting
Christendom by bridging the gulf that separates non-Catholic communions from
Rome. The ecumenical movement will
then become a concerted effort to unite the world and to secure universal
peace and security by enlisting the power of civil government in a universal
religio-political crusade to eliminate all dissent. SDA’s envision this crusade as the great
apostasy to which John the revelator refers as “Babylon the great.” They understand, also, that God’s last message of mercy to the world
prior to the return of Christ in power and glory will consist of a warning
against this great apostate movement, and a call to all who choose to remain
loyal to Him to leave the churches connected with it. See Rev. 13:15-17; 14:6-11; 16:12-14;
17:1-6; 18:1-4; GC 444, 445, 573, 588, 589, 615.” SDA Encyclopedia, p. 411, and page 362 in
some later editions.
·
Then
the SDA church ITSELF became connected with the Ecumenical Movement, in
violation of the first and second angel’s messages, as well as Isaiah 8:9-13,
and Jeremiah 11:9-15.
·
SDA’s
have admitted to Ecumenical involvement in HunConfidentialand elsewhere. B.B.
Beach is on record for saying the
church was not involved as observers only, but as pro forma active members of certain councils of Babylon.
·
The
SDA church CONSPIRED with Babylon to ever
become involved in Hungary,
for example. That act was never voted
in any General Conference Session of the World Church of Seventh-day
Adventists. A few men who took control
of the church and the General Conference, united the church with Babylon, in violation of
God’s strictly forbidding commands not to Associate, Counsel, Gird and
Confederate with His enemies.
·
Isaiah
8:9-13, strictly forbids such association, counsel, girding and confederacy
with those God has instructed us to remain separated from. Isaiah 8:9-13 DOES NOT say that such violators
will be reconcilliated to God. It says
they will be broken in pieces with no options.
·
The
marginal reading for the words slaughter weapons in Ezekiel 9:2, reads: “a weapon of his breaking in pieces. This ecumenical conspiracy is why the SDA
church militant will be broken in pieces in another literal fulfillment of
Ezekiel 9, and that is confirmed by God and Ellen White.
·
The
three angel’s messages call us out from Babylon
to remain a separate, peculiar and holy people.
·
We
cannot give the three angel’s messages to the world and Babylon when we are linked ourselves. That is the grossest of all oxymorons, and
unpardonable sin that God instructed Jeremiah not to even pray for.
·
An
Admiral in the U.S. Navy, was taking bible studies with an SDA pastor for
about eight months, and was about ready to take a stand. One Tuesday evening before the Wednesday
evening Bible study, the Admiral was watching a documentary on Television on
the National Council of Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. At the end of the program, he noticed that
the SDA church was listed in the credits as a MEMBER. The next evening when the SDA pastor
arrived for the scheduled Bible study, the Admiral met the pastor at the door
to say: “Don’t you ever darken my
doorway again.” The pastor enquired
why? The Admiral related to him what
he saw on Television the evening before and told asked him: “Why are you calling folk out of Babylon when you are
part of it yourself.” That Admiral was
an awake, intelligent man. He realized
what even most sleeping SDA’s do not sensed.
He realized that the church was in violation of the three angel’s
messages by ecumenical involvement. It
is mighty sad when the world has to point out our violations of God’s
strictly forbidding commands to us, and our violation of God’s commission to
us, the Three Angel’s Messages.
·
By
bringing converts into a church that is in violation of the three angel’s
messages, we achieve the following: Mat 23:15 Woe
unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to
make one proselyte, and when
he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
·
All
of the above are reasons why David M. Curtis and the professing Seventh-day
Adventist church are not qualified to give the Loud Cry Warning Message. God will not give His final outpouring of
the Latter Rain Holy Spirit to a church or any ministry that is so involved
with Babylon.
·
The
church thus becomes a part with Babylon
by joining its Associations, Councils, Girdings, and Confederacies.
·
All
of the above constitute the professing SDA church as the New Movement, New
Organization Omega of Apostasy church defined by Ellen White in Selected
Messages, Bk. 1, 204-5.
"The peculiar work of the third angel has not been seen in
its importance. God meant that His people should be far in advance of the
position which they occupy today. But now, when the time has come for them to
spring into action, they have the preparation to make. When the National
Reformers [the title of the ecumenical movement before it became the Federal
Council of Churches in 1908, and then the World Council of Churches, in 1948)
began to urge measures to restrict religious liberty, our leading men should
have been alive to the situation and should have labored earnestly to
counteract these efforts. It is not in the order of God that light has been
kept from our people--the very present truth which they needed for this time.
Not all our ministers who are giving the third angel's message really
understand what constitutes that message. The National Reform [Ecumenical]
movement has been regarded by some as of so little importance that they have
not thought it necessary to give much attention to it and have even felt that
in so doing they would be giving time to questions distinct from the third
angel's message [the Everlasting Gospel of Revelation 14]. May the Lord
forgive our brethren for thus interpreting the very message for this
time." E.G. White, Testimonies, vol. 5, 714, 715.
Quoted on Nicholas's web site:
"In amazement
they hear the testimony that Babylon is the church, fallen because of
her errors and sins, because of her rejection of the truth sent to her from
Heaven." -Spirit of
Prophecy, Vol. 4, p 424 or Great Controversy, p
606-607
The
Loud Cry Responds
The quote above used by Nicholas from The Great Controversy is referring the
Roman Catholic Church NOT the Seventh-day
Adventist Church!
Clearly evidence he is willing to twist the words of inspiration to give a
seeming support to his errors.
Ron Responds: The SDA church is now in liaison with the
World Council of Churches, and its subsidiary organizations such as its
National Councils and its more local Ministerial Associations. The SDA
Church pays annual dues to belong to
these organizations and thus finances Babylon
and its erroneous teachings. This is
why Nicholas Petula is correct in applying Spirit of Prophecy, Vol. 4, p.
424, or Great Controversy, pp. 606-7, to the professing SDA New Movement
church.
"My brother, I learn that you are
taking the position that the
Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, and that all that would be saved must come out of
her. You are not the only man whom the enemy has deceived in this matter. For
the last forty years, one man after another has arisen, claiming that the
Lord has sent him with the same message; but let me tell you, as I have told
them, that this message you are proclaiming, is one of the Satanic delusions
designed to create confusion among the churches. My brother, you are
certainly off the
track. The second angel's message was
to go to Babylon [the churches] proclaiming her downfall, and
calling the people to come out of her.
This same message is to be proclaimed the second time. 'And after these
things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the
earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong
voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the
habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and
a cage of every unclean and hateful
bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath
of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication
with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance
of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come
out of her, my people, that ye be not
partakers of her sins, and that ye
receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God
hath remembered her iniquities.' {RH, September 12, 1893 par. 14}
Ron’s response: Notice the
present tense of the statement Ellen White wrote in 1893! Stanton and Caldwell were calling the
church Babylon
at a time when Ellen White says in the same article, that the church was then
keeping the commandments and heeding the Laodicean message. Here is her statement from the same article
quoted above:
"The counsel of Christ to the Laodicean Church
was being acted upon, and all who were feeling their poverty were buying gold
(faith and love, white raiment (the righteousness of Christ), and eyesalve
(true spiritual discernment)." E. G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 6,
513, col. 3, 1893.
For God’s sake SDA’s, if the church is linked with Babylon in any way, the
second call of the Loud Cry is to her members also. It does not take a rocket scientist to
discern that.
David M. Curtis is following the SDA “dumb-dog” watchmen technique of
Satan, used since the death of Ellen White, to protect the church no matter
what apostasy it engages in. The
statement was written in 1893, and is taken out of context of time, place and
circumstance by David and his leaders, who are leading to destruction:
Isa 9:16 For the leaders of this people cause [them] to err; and
[they that are] led of them [are] destroyed.
Quoted on Nicholas's web site:
The Word says..
Revelation 18:2, "And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation
of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and
hateful bird."
The
Loud Cry Responds:
The above quote from Review and Herald makes it clear Revelation 18:1-4 is
NOT a message to the SDA Church it is a message to Rome, and the fallen churches.
Ron’s response: But David, you admit that Ellen White said
that the church could fall and become the cage of every unclean and hateful
bird. She said that in more statements
than you admit to in your response to Nicholas. So since the SDA church has united itself
to Babylon’s
Associations, Councils, Girdings, and Confederacies, why would the second
Loud Cry not apply to her? Please tell
us all the answer to that question David Curtis? Confidential cannot answer that question. What is your answer David?
Quoted from Nicholas's site:
Sister White says of the people leading the GC SDA...
"That these men should stand in a
sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed
the General Conference to be--that is past".--Last Day Events 50.4
The
Loud Cry responds:
At times, when a small group of men entrusted with the general management of
the work have, in the name of the General Conference, sought to carry out
unwise plans to restrict God's work, I have said that I could no longer
regard the voice of the General Conference, represented by these few men, as
the voice of God. But this is not saying that the decisions of a General
Conference composed of an assembly of duly appointed, representative men from
all parts of the
field should not be respected. God has ordained that the representatives of
His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General
Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of
committing is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small
group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God
has invested in His church in the judgment and voice of the General
Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His
work.--9T 260, 261 (1909).
New Conferences must be formed. It was in the order of God that the Union
conference was organized in Australasia. . . . It is not necessary to send thousands of
miles to Battle Creek for advice, and then have to wait weeks for an
answer. Those who are right on the ground are to decide what shall be
done.--GCB April 5, 1901, pp. 69, 70.
Note: In the above quotation she is giving council to continue growth of G C
conferences and churches just two days after she said. . . “That these men
should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as
we once believed the General Conference to be--that is past.--GCB April 3,
1901, p. 25.” Clearly Sister White was NOT against the General Conference
since two days later she said, "New Conferences
must be formed."
Ron’s response: David Curtis, Ellen White would never give
council to any conference of the church to become in liaison in ANY WAY with Babylon, so that
potential members like the U.S. Admiral, might refuse the truth because of
the example of the church, and its members would be led in violation of the
three angel’s messages. It was a FEW
MEN only who conspired to join the Council of Free Churches in Hungary. The Adventist Review admitted this, so it
is not in any doubt. The world church
should surely be consulted before uniting the church to Babylon, wouldn’t you agree? Would you not agree that the church should
not be united to Babylon
in any wise?
Quoted
on Nicholas's web site:
Sister White says the Remnant will
LEAVE the GC SDA...
“I saw that God has honest children
among the nominal Adventists and the fallen churches, and before the plagues
shall be poured out, ministers and people will be called out from these
churches and will gladly receive the truth. Satan knows this and before the
loud cry of the third angel is given, he raises an excitement in these
religious bodies, that those who have rejected the
truth may think that God is with them. He hopes to deceive the honest and
lead them to think that God is still working for the churches. But the light
will shine, and all who are honest will leave the fallen churches, and take
their stand with the remnant” -Early Writings: page 261.
The Loud Cry responds:
Early Writings was written in the mid 1840's. "The nominal
Adventists," is not Seventh-day Adventists because the church did not
even exist at the time Early Writings was written. The Seventh-day Adventist Church was not organized until 17 years later in 1863!
"The nominal
Adventists," is referring to the Millerites who had accepted the teachings of William
Miller.
Response to "before the
plaques" in the above quote, and this taken from Nic's site, "Is
probation closed on the SDA church?"
"You will take passages in the
Testimonies that speak of the close of probation, of the shaking among God's
people, and you will talk of a coming out from this people of a purer, holier
people that will arise. Now all this pleases the enemy. . . . Should many
accept the views you advance, and talk and act upon them, we would see one of
the greatest fanatical excitements that have ever
been witnessed among Seventh-day Adventists. This is what Satan wants.--1SM
179 (1890).
Ron responds: David, Ellen White said that the church
could become a part of Babylon. If the signs are clear that she has, by her
liaisons with Babylon, then the final call to
come out of Babylon
does apply to Seventh-day Adventist.
There should be no dispute about this.
You are the one who is considering only certain selected quotes by
Ellen White, to the complete disparagement and ignorance of many, many
others. You are following your leaders
in trying to manipulate a few Ellen White statements on Babylon,
to say that the church will never become any part of Babylon, and that no man could know if and
when it did. That is cacophony
David. That is the voice of Satan
himself speaking through the dumb-dog watchmen of Isaiah 56:10-12, which
Ellen White reapplies in Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211. If they will NEVER AGAIN show the House of
Jacob its sins, you are fallen through very thin ice David, and by now the
ice has melted!
Ellen White said that if the
church became Laodicean, it would not stand in any different favor with God
than the fallen churches. They are
nominal. The SDA church is nominal
because it did indeed become Laodicean in 1856.
"The church is in the Laodicean state. The presence of God
is not in her midst." E.G. White, Notebook Leaflets, p. 99, 1898.
"To the end of time, the presence of the Spirit is to abide
with the true church." E.G. White, Acts of the Apostles, p. 55.
Only the presence of God can
constitute a church—
"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is
it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is
the people who love God and keep His commandments. 'Where two or three are
gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them' (Matt. 18:20).
Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy
One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. Where two
or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there
presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in
the city enclosed in prison walls." E.G. White, The Upward Look, 315.
"Like ancient Israel, the church has dishonored
her God by departing from the light, neglecting her duties, and abusing her
high and exalted privilege of being peculiar and holy in character. Her
members have violated their covenant to live for God and him only. They have
joined with the selfish and world-loving. Pride, the love of pleasure, and
sin have been cherished, and CHRIST HAS DEPARTED. His Spirit has been
quenched in the church. Satan works wide by side with professed Christians
yet they are so destitute of spiritual discernment that they do not detect
him." E.G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 2, pp. 441-442.
"Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of
God, will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men
and fraud and guile will bear the semblance of zeal for truth, and for the
advancement of the kingdom
of God." E.G.
White, Testimonies to Ministers, 494.
"Christ speaks of the church over which Satan presides as
the synagogue of Satan. Its members are the children of disobedience. They
are those who choose to sin, who labor to make void the holy law of God. It
is Satan's work to mingle evil with good, and to remove the distinction
between good and evil.
Christ would have a church that labors to separate the evil from
the good, whose members will not willingly tolerate wrong-doing, but will
expel it form the heart and life." E.G White, Review and Herald
Articles, Vol. 4, 243, cf. Signs of the Times, March 1, 1910.
"If the church
of God becomes LUKEWARM
[LAODICEAN] it does not stand in favor with God any more than do the churches
that are represented as having fallen and become the habitation of devils and
the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Those who have had opportunities to hear and receive the truth, and who have
united with the Seventh-day Adventist church, calling themselves the
commandment keeping people of God, and yet possess no more vitality and
consecration to God than do the nominal churches, will receive of the plagues
of God just as verily as the churches who oppose the law of God." E.G.
White, Letter 35, 1898.
"Satan has a large confederacy, his church. Christ calls
them the synagogue of Satan because the members are the children of sin. The
members of Satan's church have been constantly working to cast off the divine
law, and confuse the distinction between good and evil. Satan is working with
great power in and through the children of disobedience to exalt treason and
apostasy as truth and loyalty." E.G. White, Testimonies to Ministers,
16.
Alliance
with the World--Babylon
is also charged with the sin of unlawful connection with "the kings of
the earth." It was by departure from the Lord, and alliance with the
heathen, that the Jewish church became a harlot; and Rome, corrupting herself in like manner by
seeking the support of worldly powers, receives a like condemnation.--GC 382.
{1NL 52.7}
Quoted
on Nicholas's web site:
SDA church allowing Sunday worshipers
to use church
Clinton praises the SDA
The Loud Cry
Responds,
So what??? give
me a break!!!
Ron responds: David, the real bride of Christ, described
in Isaiah 62, is termed forsaken. She
is not favored by the world. Clinton is a member of the
Trilateral Commission and the Free Masons, two of Satan’s foremost
organizations. If the SDA church was
fulfilling its commission to the world, it would not receive the praise of
any such member of Satan’s confederacy.
Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed
Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt
be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee,
and thy land shall be married.
Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you,
ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.
The principle is that is the
world praises the church, something is wrong with the church’s witness, for
if it was doing its job, it would not be praised by the world.
Jhn 15:19 If ye were of the
world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but
I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have
escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and
Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the
latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world,
neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the
love of the Father is not in him.
Quoted on Nicholas's site:
Adventist Pastor Preaches in German Mosque
The Loud Cry
Responds,
I suppose Nicholas would condemn Paul for preaching in the synagogues, and
condemn Jesus Himself for the same thing. I say praise the Lord that truth
was given the pulpit in that German Mosque.
Ron responds: It was different in Jewish Synagogues. Josephus said that one entered he was
always asked if he had a message from the Lord, and if he said yes, he was
permitted to give that message. That is not the procedure in the SDA church.
Ellen White instructed an SDA minister by the name of Baker, that it is
impossible to give the truth and three angel’s messages within Babylon’s churches. You are directly contradicting her
admonition David.
The Loud Cry Responds,
As to the rest of the charges of which I could
continue to respond but quite frankly have better things to do with my time I
reply:
The Lord has not given you a message
to call the Seventh-day Adventists Babylon, and to call the people of God to come out of her. All
the reasons you may present cannot have weight with me on this subject,
because the Lord has given me decided light that is opposed to such a
message. . . . know that the Lord loves His church.
It is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms. There is
not the least
consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will
be. -2SM 63, 68, 69 (1893)
Lets repeat that, “there is not the least evidence that such a thing will
be.” This is referring to the future past her time and Ellen says there is no
evidence in her mind that such a thing will be. Yes but what about Jesuits
and misuse of tithe and….. “All the reasons you may present cannot have
weight with me on this subject, because the Lord has given me decided light that
is opposed to such a message.”
Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of
the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that
is polluted and demoralized by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective,
needing to be reproved, warned, and counseled, is the only object upon earth
upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard.--Testimonies to Ministers and
Gospel Workers p. 45, 49 (1893).
Ron responds: All statements by any prophet, including
Ellen G. White are conditional. God
made a similar promise to the Jews David, as you cite in the statement
directly above from TMGW, p. 45, 49.
He told them that as long as the sun and moon shone, they would be His
chosen people. The sun and moon still
shine in the sky David Curtis, but the Jews are no longer God’s chosen
people. That accolade passed on to the
Gentiles and spiritual Israel. But the Jews still pine: “The Temple of the Lord are
these, the temple of the Lord are these,” saying that they are still God’s
chosen. SDA’s have made the same
mistake by taking a few very obviously conditional statements by Ellen White,
and interpreting them as though they apply NO MATTER WHAT THE CHURCH DOES. That was the greatest mistake of the Jews,
and it is now the greatest mistake of professing Seventh-day Adventists, and
has been since the demise of Ellen G. White.
"The Jews had deceived themselves by misinterpreting the
words of the Lord through his prophets, of his eternal favor to his people Israel.
'Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day,
and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which
divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar the Lord of hosts is his name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of
Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. Thus saith the
Lord: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth
searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have
done, saith the Lord.' Jer. 31:35-37.
These
words the Jews applied to themselves. And because God had shown them so great
favor and mercy, they flattered themselves that, notwithstanding their sins
and iniquities, he would still retain them as his favored people, and shower
especial blessings upon them. They misapplied the words of Jeremiah and
depended for their salvation upon being called the [chosen] children of
Abraham. If they had indeed been worthy of the name of Abraham's
children, they would have followed the righteous example of their father
Abraham, and would have done the works of Abraham. This has been the danger
of the people of God in all ages and especially is this the danger of those
living near the close of time. . . .
God
would in no wise excuse sin in a people who had been enlightened, even if he
had, in their days of faithfulness and purity, loved them, and given them
especial promises. These promises and blessings were always upon condition of obedience
upon their part. The Lord pronounced, by the mouth of Moses, blessings upon the obedient, and curses
upon the disobedient." E. G. White, Review and Herald,
Vol. 1, 123.
Based upon the above example involving apostate Israel, why do you and your
“dumb-dog” watchmen (Isa. 56:10-12) deny every principle stated above when it
comes to professing Seventh-day Adventists?
Is God going to have to apologize to the Jews of old?
Some people seem to think that upon
entering the church they will have their expectations fulfilled, and meet only
with those who are pure and perfect. They are zealous in their faith, and
when they see faults in church members, they say, "We left the world in
order to have no association with evil characters, but the evil is here
also;" and they ask, as did the servants in the parable, "From
whence then hath it tares?" But we need not be thus disappointed, for
the Lord has not warranted us in coming to the conclusion that the church is
perfect; and all our zeal will not be successful in making the church
militant as
pure as the church triumphant.--Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers
p. 47 (1893).
Ron responds: If interpreted by itself and omitting other important evidence, the above
statement could be interpreted to mean that we should have never left the churches
of Babylon and Rome.
There is a great gulf of difference between faults, defects, a lack of
perfection, and gross, strictly forbidden apostasy. Otherwise, we could apply the above
statement to the Reformation, to 1844, and even to Christ, His disciples and
Paul in the following cases:
"Christ was a protestant...The Reformers date back to
Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a
religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the
reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the
apostles." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 48, col. 2.
"And as they persisted in their rejection of the gospel the
apostle (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space for
three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. But when divers were hardened,
and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he
departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the
school of one Tyrannus." Acts, 19:8, 9.
"Fearing that the faith of the believers would be endangered
by continued association with these opposers of the truth, Paul separated
from them, and gathered the disciples into a distinct body." E.G. White,
Acts of the Apostles, p. 286.
"The Sanhedrin had rejected Christ's message and was
bent upon His death therefore Jesus departed from Jerusalem, from the
priests, the temple, the religious leaders, the people who had been
instructed in the law, and turned to another class to proclaim His message,
and to gather out those who should carry the gospel to all nations.
As the light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical
authorities in the days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every
succeeding generation. Again and again the history of Christ's withdrawal
from Judea has been repeated. When the
Reformers preached the word of God, they had no thought of separating
themselves from the established church but the religious leaders would not
tolerate the light, and those that bore it were forced to seek another class,
who were longing for the truth. In our day few of the professed followers of
the Reformers are actuated by their spirit. Few are listening for the voice
of God, and ready to accept truth in whatever guise it may be presented.
Often those who follow in the steps of the Reformers are forced to turn away
from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the
word of God. And many times those who are seeking for light are by the same
teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render
obedience." E.G. White, Desire of Ages, 232.
The Chaff Separated From
the Wheat…….Divisions will come in the church. Two parties will be developed.
The wheat and tares grow up together for the harvest.--2SM 114 (1896).
Ron responds: It can be proven that we are NOW in the
harvest time for the Seventh-day Adventist church because of its violation of
the three angel’s messages. Membership
in the World Council of Churches and its subsidiary organizations, prohibits
the dis-faming of fellow churches.
Thus, the three angel’s messages are “off limits,” because they call
the other churches Babylon. That is why the New Movement SDA church
distances itself from groups of church members who distribute the Great
Controversy, when WCC leaders protest to the SDA church. The church then brands such groups as
wild-eyed fanatics such as all churches have.
Regarding the separation of the
wheat from the tares, is the third angel in the form of faithful men who do
the separating:
"I then saw the THIRD ANGEL. Said my accompanying angel,
'Fearful is his work. Awful is his mission. He is the angel that is to select the wheat from the tares,
and seal, or bind, the wheat for the heavenly garner." E.G. White, Early
Writings, 118.
"The angel represented in prophecy as delivering this
message, symbolizes a class of
faithful men, who obedient to the promptings of God's Spirit and the
teachings of his word, proclaim this warning to the inhabitants of earth.
This message WAS NOT to be committed to the religious leaders of the
people." E.. White, The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4, 199, 200.
The
tares are gathered first to be burned. Then the wheat is gathered into the
garner. The garner is Hebrews 12:22,
23. The tares are burned in the field,
the church and the world, Ezekiel 22:17-31.
Ellen White says that the world and the church are the field.
"The 'field,' Christ said, 'is the world.' But we must
understand this as signifying the church
of Christ in the world.
The parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God,
His work of salvation of men and this work is accomplished through the
church. True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world everywhere it
is moving upon the hearts of men but it is in the church that we are to grow
and ripen for the garner of God." Christ's Object Lessons. 70.
Ezekiel 22:17-31, tells where the tares were gathered in what
Ellen White defined as a PREFIGURE, the A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. Wherever they were gathered then, must be
where they will be gathered in the antitype to the TYPE, the PREFIGURE. So where were they gathered in A.D. 70?
Ezekiel 22
1 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2
Now, thou son of man, wilt thou judge, wilt thou judge the bloody city? yea, thou shalt shew her all her abominations. 3 Then say thou,
Thus saith the Lord GOD, The city sheddeth blood in the midst of it, that her
time may come, and maketh idols against herself to defile herself. 4 Thou art become guilty in
thy blood that thou hast shed; and hast defiled thyself in thine idols which
thou hast made; and thou hast caused thy days to draw near, and art come
even unto thy years: therefore have I made thee a reproach unto the heathen,
and a mocking to all countries. 5 Those that be near, and those
that be far from thee, shall mock thee, which art infamous and much vexed. 6
Behold, the princes of Israel
[THE LEADERS], every one were in thee to their power to shed blood.
7 In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst
of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they
vexed the fatherless and the widow. 8 Thou hast despised mine holy
things, and hast profaned my sabbaths. 9 In thee are men that carry tales to shed blood: and in thee they
eat upon the mountains: in the midst
of thee they commit lewdness [with the fallen harlots of Babylon]. 10 In thee have
they discovered their fathers' nakedness: in thee have they humbled her that
was set apart for pollution. 12 In thee have they taken gifts to
shed blood; thou hast taken usury and increase11 And one hath committed abomination with his neighbour's
wife; and another hath lewdly defiled his daughter in law; and another in
thee hath humbled his sister, his father's daughter., and thou hast greedily gained of thy neighbours by
extortion, and hast forgotten me, saith the Lord GOD. 13 Behold,
therefore I have smitten mine hand at thy dishonest gain [All the
financial frauds in the church—and if you do not know about them, ask Vance
Ferrell of Pilgrims Rest Ministries, who has documented them all] which
thou hast made, and at thy blood which hath been in the midst of thee. 14 Can thine heart endure, or
can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the
LORD have spoken it, and will do it. 15 And I will scatter thee among the heathen, and disperse thee in the
countries, and will consume thy filthiness out of thee. 16 And
thou shalt take thine inheritance in thyself in the sight of the heathen, and
thou shalt know that I am the LORD. 17 And the word of the LORD
came unto me, saying, 18
Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross [TARES]: all they are brass,
and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the
dross of silver. 19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because
ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead,
and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it;
so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you
there, and melt you. 21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you
in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst therof. 22
As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the
midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon
you. 23 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 24
Son of man, say unto her, Thou art
the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.
25 There is a conspiracy
of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;
they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things;
they have made her many widows in the midst thereof. 26 Her
priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have
put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed
difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my
sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. 27 Her princes [LEADERS] in the midst
thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy
souls, to get dishonest gain. 28 And her prophets have daubed them
with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying,
Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken. 29 The people of the land have used
oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea,
they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully. 30 And I sought for a man among them,
that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land,
that I should not destroy it: but I found none. 31 Therefore
have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the
fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith
the Lord GOD.
Important Observations from the above Scripture:
·
In the original manuscripts of Scripture,
there were no chapter divisions and designations. The same author of Ezekiel 9, which Ellen
White said would be LITERALLY FULFILLED again, is the author of what you are
reading above. He is still recounting
the abominations of Jerusalem,
the church.
·
Ezekiel mentions the defilement of Jerusalem. Revelation 14:1-4, says that the bride of
Christ is not defiled with women (fallen churches). That is why the 144,000 bride will separate
when she sees this defilement. Fear
and Shun--"'They that forsake the law praise the wicked.' Proverbs
28:4. When those who are uniting with the world, yet claiming great purity,
plead for union with those who have ever been the opposers of the cause of
truth, we should fear and shun them as decidedly as did Nehemiah. Such counsel
is prompted by the enemy of all good. It is the speech of timeservers, and
should be resisted as resolutely today as then. Whatever influence would tend
to unsettle the faith of God' people in His guiding power, should be
steadfastly withstood." E.G. White, Prophets and kings, p. 660.
·
In Ezekiel 5:9, he mentions the worst
thing God has ever done or will ever do again. That is at the end-time per Matthew
24:21. That updates Ezekiel to the
end-time! Thy localized destruction of
provincial Jerusalem
in A.D. 70, certainly WAS NOT the worst thing that God has ever done or will
ever again do! The flood was
worse! The two other destructions of Jerusalem by
Nebuchadnezzar were just as bad as that of A.D. 70. But all that does not begin to compare with
the destruction of the entire world at the end-time “beginning at His
Sanctuary, “ spiritual Jerusalem,
the professing New Movement SDA church militant. A small remnant will escape
(Ezekiel 5:1-3), after which, the entire remaining church will be destroyed because
of all the abominations recounted in Ezekiel 8.
·
The idols are anything that interposes
between obedience to God’s commands.
·
The tares are gathered into the midst
of Jerusalem,
the apostate church, for burning and melting.
·
The professing New Movement apostate
church is not the church which is cleansed, purged of the tares, and/or
receives the rain of the Latter Rain to deliver the final Loud Cry to Babylon
for indeed it has come into liaison with her itself: Thou
art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation
·
There
is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion
ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and
precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.
·
The leaders did indeed conspire with Babylon to become linked
with her and keep it a secret from the laity by never consulting the world
church in General Session of the General Conference.
·
27 Her princes
[LEADERS] in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed
blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain. I always thought the wolves were apostate
outsiders! Not so friend! Though some do exist outside, Ezekiel
indicts the leaders as being wolves in sheep’s clothing, devouring the prey.
·
How do they make widows? Christ their husband has departed!
·
And
her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and
divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath
not spoken.
·
After the call is heeded by the remnant
to come out of her, there will not be one faithful man left in the apostate
church: 30 And I sought for a man among them,
that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land,
that I should not destroy it: but I found none.
·
The Lord has shown this writer that
Ezekiel description of the Wheel within a wheel is the remnant within a
remnant. In the PREFIGURE TYPE of A.D.
70, that faithful remnant within the larger wheel fled and the larger wheel
was destroyed. 1Ki 7:33 And the work
of the wheels [was] like the work of a chariot wheel: their axletrees, and
their naves, and their felloes, and their spokes, [were] all molten. Psa
83:13 O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind. Pro
20:26 A wise king scattereth the wicked, and bringeth the wheel over them.
Isa 28:27 For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument,
neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are
beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
Eze 1:16 The appearance of
the wheels and their work [was] like unto the colour of a beryl: and they
four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work [was] as it were a
wheel in the middle of a wheel. Eze 10:9 And when I looked, behold the four
wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by
another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels [was] as the colour of a
beryl stone. Eze 10:10 And [as for] their appearances, they four had one
likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel.
·
In the schema of the two brass Mountain
symbolizing Jerusalem and Zion,
Zion is the true remnant dwelling for a time
within Jerusalem,
but then fleeing. For further study on
this important truth see the following article: https://members.tripod.com/omega77/brassmount.htm
I am in communication with ministries which
Nicholas has broken copyright laws with on his site in an effort to slander
the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. Actions are being taken to
have them removed.
David M. Curtis
Ron’s Commentary: Yes, David, it would not surprise me if
your New Movement apostate church once again hires Catholic Lawyers to go
after those who teach the truth about the apostasy of your New Movement
church that has removed God and thus does not really even qualify as a
church, since only His presence can constitute a church. More of your tithe money will be expended
in an effort to discredit and silence the voice of protest against your
apostate, Omega of Apostasy New Movement church masquerading as the True
Seventh-day Adventist church. Recall
that Ezekiel 22:17-31 mentions the oppression of your church! Yes, it has already used millions of dollars
of tithe monies to sue faithful Adventists and it will probably continue the
oppression.
7 In thee have they set light by father
and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the
stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow. They oppress the wheel within the wheel,
the wheel. You need to study this
document very carefully:
https://members.tripod.com/omega77/brassmount.htm
David M. Curtis is a surface
thinker who is using a few statements by Ellen White in a totally out of
context manner, regarding time, place and circumstance, which applied in
1893, when the church was keeping the commandments of God and heeding the
Laodicean message. They have no proper
application today in light of the liaison of the church with Babylonian
Associations, Councils, Girdings and Confederacies. The statements Curtis and the leaders
employ, were conditional to the church moving straight forward, onward and
upward.
Ronald W. Beaulieu
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