Exegesis Versus Eisegesis
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Main Entry: eis·ege·sis javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?eisege01.wav=eisegesis')javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?eisege01.wav=eisegesis')Pronunciation: "I-s&-'jE-s&s, 'I-s&-" Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural eis·ege·ses javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?eisege02.wav=eisegeses')javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?eisege02.wav=eisegeses')/-"sEz/ Etymology: Greek eis into (akin to Greek en in) + English exegesis -- more at IN : the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas -- compare EXEGESIS. Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary. Karl stated: "Hence, our present entrance into salvation was not based on law, but by grace alone, apprehended by faith alone. Grace plus nothing." As I have pointed out numerous times, you believe and teach the doctrine of the Nicolaitans that salvation comes by faith (mental assent) alone and not by works as well. James says that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone. How do you reconcile Paul with James on this issue of faith and works? So far, you have not reconciled the issue. You have picked and chosen Paul's version and interpreted it to make even Paul contradict himself when he says that God is the author of salvation unto all who OBEY Him. Is this grace (faith) plus nothing? Again, Janine and I have both asked: If we are saved solely by faith alone, then why are we judged by our works? Karl, You have even appeared to agree with me at times that obedience accompanies justification by saying that you doubt if justification accrues without sanctification. But you vacillate Karl and accuse me of something I am not saying, by telling me that I am teaching obedience BEFORE justification. No Karl. Please get this straight ONCE AND FOREVER: I believe and teach that obedience ACCOMPANIES JUSTIFICATION. The obedience that ACCOMPANIES JUSTIFICATION also justifies (saves) a man. I agree with James of Scripture, not Catholicism. However, if indeed the Catholics believe and teach James 2:24, then I agree with them on that particular point.Jam 2:24 Ye see then that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Whenever and wherever Paul says we are not saved by works but by the gift of grace, in order to be interpreted so that he is not made to contradict himself, we must conclude that he was teaching the Jews that they were not saved (justified) by works of their own, but it was all a gift of grace which includes pardon for sins we can do nothing about (sins past) and grace for obedience in the future. You do love to neglect the grace for obedience part of the gift Karl. You and millions of other professing Christians. You thus turn the power of grace for obedience into lasciviousness, saying that obedience is not essential for salvation but comes later as a fruit. This puts subjects into a laxidaisical attitude about sin--a lukewarm attitude if you will, and that accounts for the attitude of Laodicea, because she believe she is in a saved state without obedience as an accompanying aspect of justification. When I say obedience is a requisite for justification, I mean it must accompany justification as true repentance. Karl, Can we get a very important item straight between us? You said:
on God's grace NUMBER ONE, combined with our belief, our faith, and our obedience (works). Karl responds: Ron is teaching that. He is wrong." Ron responds: Ron teaches that when one motivated by self-sacrificing love, surrenders the will to Christ and minds the things of the Spirit versus the things of the flesh, then and then only, he/she works the works of Christ, which works are empowered by Christ, so how can any man boast of works--even these works of Christ in the life, which constitute sanctification and count toward salvation because He is the author of salvation unto all who obey Him. ----- Original Message ----- From:Karl To:SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com Sent:Sunday, December 12, 2004 7:22 PM Subject:[SDAIssues] Re: Justified=Saved? --- In SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com, "Sea" <seawife@a...> wrote: > First, I KNOW that Jesus IS our salvation and we CANNOT earn salvation through our own works. Had Jesus not died no amount of works could save us. However, he did die. So is that enough? Absolutely! IF WE MEET THE CONDITIONS ATTACHED TO THE PROMISE. According to the questionable interpretation of certain passages accorded to the Apostle Paul we are saved by faith OUTSIDE of works. Hence, ALL are saved and works mean nothing. With such interpretation the words of the Saviour "not all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved but those doing the will of the Father" are negated along with "depart from me ye workers of iniquity". Now Yeshua seems to be telling us soming totally different to what mainstream "grace plus nothing" churches are teaching. Now, I have listened to the "works follow faith argument" and I agree. Yet I still have to question the need for works following faith if we are saved by faith OUTSIDE of works. So something has been misinterpretated here it seems. James teaches that faith without works is a dead faith, and from this is can be concluded that those who do not have works are toast. Therefore, works have a great deal to do with salvation regardless of where they come on the list. This will, of course, bring another cry of "you're not listening Janine" but I am. Maybe too well. Having said that, being judged according to our works sounds like a total waste of time to me if we are saved by faith OUTSIDE of works. Why judge according to our works? Maybe the churches would do well to really fathom out what being saved by faith OUTSIDE of works actually means. BTW, by claiming Ron teaches obedience BEFORE salvation you appear to be showing a "once saved always saved" mindset. Karl reponds: That is what the Standish boys accused Sequira, Weiland and Short of because they couldn't understand salvation by grace thru faith alone. Salvation doesn't happen until Yahshua returns and there are many "faithers", "gracers", and "workers" living in an unsaved condition. Karl reponds: Salvation happens when we accept Christ. When Christ comes, it is the eschatological consumation of the present reality of our salvation. When we accept Christ, we, right that moment pass from death to life. "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death." [1 John 3:14]. We have salvation as a present reality, "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" [Eph 1:7]. We sit in heavenly places with Christ now, in the present. Eph 2:6. From my understanding Ron is teaching that salvation is dependent on God's grace NUMBER ONE, combined with our belief, our faith, and our obedience (works). Karl reponds: Ron is teaching that. He is wrong. And when Yahshua returns our salvation will depend on our response to all of the above. God's promises have ALWAYS been conditional and God never changes. > > Peace be with you > > Janine > Conclusion by Karl: Hence, our present enterence into salvation was not based on law, but by grace alone, apprehended by faith alone. Grace plus nothing. Karl > Lord have mercy on me > and protect me from your > servants. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karl" <KarlWagner@c...> > To: <SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 11:55 PM > Subject: [SDAIssues] Re: Justified=Saved? > > > > > > > > Paul teaches that we are saved outside of works, any works, even > > Holy Ghost aided works. They are never the basis, but he result. > > James speaks of faith to a people who are holding an intellectual > > assent only concept of faith. He is speaking of faith that works. > > When Paul get done describing Abarahm in chapter 4 of Romans, he > > says, " And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." [Rom > > 4:22] Notice that he uses the word, "imputed." A forensic term, > > Abaraham was counted righteous. > > The theology you are teaching is Roman Catholic. Not like it, but > > the very same thing. You Gospel is the difference between Rome and > > the Reformation. > > I have a ten hour day today at work. But when I get back, I'll quote > > from the Council of Trent. Such as your belief of obedience before > > salvation (justification) is a work of grace to obey in order to be > > justified. Rome says, "...in adults, the beginning of the said > > Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, > > through Jesus Christ." [Sixt Session Jan 13, 1547, chap. V.] > > Karl |