Martin Eldon Versus Vinscent Musterion

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Dear Reader,

The following exchange occurred today, July 7, 2003, between Martin Eldon and Vincent Musterion on an Internet chat group. Martin Eldon operates this chat group and will not permit the postings of any person, such as I, who can prove him wrong. Recall that Martin Eldon, Lynnford Beachy and Alan Stump teach the same thing regarding the Godhead. They teach that divinity died on the cross. Ellen White says that only Christ's humanity died on the cross.

Regarding the following exchange between Martin and Vincent, I sent the following private e-mail to Vincent:

Dear Vincent,

Martin is wrong. You are correct.

The reason Jesus said that He would raise Himself after three days, is because His Holy Spirit was alive in Heaven while He was here on earth. Notice that while He was speaking to Nicodemus face to face on earth, Jesus said: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13.

Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Of course, it is Jesus who is speaking in the above verse, so that verse must be made to agree with others that God raised Him or the Bible contradicts itself. There is a way to make the Bible and Ellen White agree on this point, and I present it within this reply to Martin's error.

The Holy Spirit, which Ellen White defines as Christ's life and soul, was relinquished in heaven at the Incarnation, as a regenerating gift to us. That remained in heaven and it was this same Spirit of Chrit that raised him from the dead.

"Christ declared that after his ascension, he would send to his church, as his crowning gift, the Comforter, who was to take his place. This Comforter is the Holy Spirit,--the soul of his life, the efficacy of his church, the light and life of the world. With his Spirit Christ sends a reconciling influence and a power that takes away sin.
In the gift of the Spirit [HIS LIFE--THE SOUL OF HIS LIFE], Jesus gave to man the highest good that heaven could bestow....
The Spirit was given as a regenerating agency, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail....
It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given his Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress his own character upon the church." E.G. White, Review and Herald Articles, May 19, 1904, vol. 5, p. 42.

I sent this to the group but Martin will not post my postings. Martin cannot take being proven wrong.

Ron Beaulieu Now here is the exchange between Martin and Vincent:

--- In, "Vincent"
<musterion7@y...> wrote: Jesus raised Himself from the dead... John
10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have
power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This
commandment have I received of my Father.... Jesus raised Himself
from the dead. He said so.

Martin replies: This is pure spiritualism! And a clear denial of the
death of Jesus Christ. DEATH is the cessation of life. LIFE CEASES, A
dead person cannot raise himself. Thus you are teaching the person
JESUS CHRIST did not die. Your doctrine offers the same 'sacrifice'
as the trinitarians.

Let's look at your verse.

Joh 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my
life, that I might take (lambano&#772;) it again. No man taketh (airo&#772;) it
from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down,
and I have power to take (lambano&#772;) it again. This commandment have I
received (lambano&#772;) of my Father.

Lambano means RECEIVE in these verses. The term AIRO is the verb that
would be used to constitute "TAKE" or "TAKE BACK".

Jesus was simply saying, "Joh 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love
me, because I lay down my life, that I might receive it again. No man
taketh (airo&#772;) it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power
to lay it down, and I have power to Receive it again. This
commandment have I received of my Father.

Also, you state that Jesus' Spirit was the FATHER. Are you denying
that Jesus had his own personal spirit? Like all humans have the
spirit within them? Clearly Jesus has a separate mind, will, and
consciousness from that of the Father, thus his own spirit. When
Jesus died he commended that spirit into the hands of the Father. It
would be strange to say, "I commend my Father, into your hands

The Father lives inside all of his Born Again Children, through the
holy Spirit.

This is the gospel according to ONENESS. GOd so loved the world that
he let part of himself live inside a human body, and he called this
body, his Son. After 33 1/2 years of life on this earth, the body was
nailed to the tree, and the part of GOD that indwelled that body went
back to heaven,and let the human body die and suffer. After 3 days
that part of GOD went back into the body and raised it again, and now
it stands on the right hand of the throne. Next to the spiritual body
of the Father.

What a GOSPEL! Heart wrenching indeed (NOT!)

Thus GOd basically just got him another body to live in right? One
Spirit that indwells two bodies? Isn't that your 'God' oh Jesus only

A double minded GOD that talks to himself in the plural (Let us), and
now has two bodies to dwell in???

> --- In, "Mickey"
> <mleegee@w...> wrote:
> > Vincent states: 3) Jesus raised Himself from the dead (John 2:
> >
> > Mickey replies: No He didn't! God, through His Spirit raised up
> > Jesus from the dead. There's about two dozen or so Scriptural
> > references in the New Testament in which it is explicitly
> > that it was God the Father who raised up Jesus from the dead.
> > 2:19 must be harmonized with the rest of the testimony of the
> > Scriptures as God's Word does not contradict itself.
> >
> > We know that the Bible informs us that the dead "know not
> anything",
> > that their "thoughts have perished", that the dead have no device
> or
> > knowledge or emotion or perception. Therefore, if Jesus, God's
> > really died on that cross, then He was totally DEAD, totally
> > unconscious, totally oblivious to the land of the living - for
> those
> > three days and three nights. Now, how can a dead person resurrect
> > him/herself while that person is still dead??? A part of that
> person
> > would have to continue to be alive in order to effect his/her own
> > resurrection. So, if Jesus raised Himself from the dead, then He
> > really wasn't dead. That means then that only His body was dead
> > His Spirit continued to be alive and conscious, conscious enough
> > that He could calculate the three days and three nights and
> say "OK,
> > I've been dead for the appointed duration and its now time for me
> to
> > resurrect myself". This is an unBiblical doctrine - as well as
> being
> > contrary to reason and revelation - and is dumb to boot! The dead
> > are DEAD. And when Jesus was dead, He was DEAD. He really did DIE
> > for our sins. He paid the price. Fully! The SDA's who subscribe
> > such an absurdity preach a forked-tongue doctrine. On one side of
> > their tongues, they confess that the soul is not immortal and
> > not survive after the death of the body - but rather comprises
> > entire living organism. But on the other side of their tongues,
> they
> > make an exception to this Biblical rule and state that in the
> > of Jesus, He did in fact possess an immortal soul which was His
> > divinity that continued to live on after His body expired on the
> > cross. This is pure RUBBISH! They make the sacrifice of God's
> > Son to be nothing more than a human sacrifice - for they say the
> > divine part of Him continued to live after His body died on the
> > cross. The problem here is that folks are defining the partaking
> > the divine nature as being synonymous with immortality and being
> > without a beginning. This isn't so. Every follower of Christ
> > who truly has the Father and the Son dwelling within them by the
> > Holy Spirit is a partaker of the divine nature and I submit to
> > that not a one of us Christians are either immortal or without
> > beginning. Christ's divinity was NOT His immortality. And His
> > immortality was NOT His divinity. Christ's divinity is His
> > His inherited nature. (Hebrews 1:4) He is God's only begotten
> > As such, He is just like God. He thinks like God. He loves like
> God.
> > He completely and totally and fully represents God. He is exactly
> > like God, a precise reproduction in every respect, a true SON
> > begotten in the express image of God, His Father, hence His OT
> > of "Michael" which simply means "He who is like God". Being like
> > someone doesn't make one that someone. Yahweh is NOT Christ and
> > Christ is NOT Yahweh. However, as God's only begotten Son
> > in the express image of God and inheriting all of the attributes
> > God, He inherited (Hebrews 1:4) God's name. He so fully reflects
> and
> > represents God that the name of God is in Him. (Exodus 23:21) And
> > thus He has the authority to go by the name of His Father. This
> > the Father's will as well as to His glory. (Philippians 2:11)
> >
> > Now, John 2:19 must be interpreted in light of other Scriptures
> > show forth its harmony. Jesus said in John 2:19 that if they
> destroy
> > this temple, He would raise it up in three days. Jesus harmonizes
> > with that verse with this one:
> >
> > John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of
> I
> > have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.
> > commandment have I received of my Father.
> >
> > Look at what we have here:
> >
> > 1.)Nobody can take Christ's life from Him.
> > 2.)Only He Himself can relinquish it.
> > 3.)He has the power - Greek word - "Exousia"(authority, power of
> > choice, permission)
> > 4.)The exercising of the choice to lay down and then take back
> > life is a direct commandment of God the Father for His Son to do
> >
> > So, the scenario is simply that God's Son, in obedience to His
> > Father, was given permission by the Father to make the choice to
> > give up His life as a sacrifice for our salvation and,
> > was given permission by God the Father, to have His life back. It
> > all reverts back to our Heavenly Father, the only true God. (John
> > 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6) It was God the Father, out of His great
> > love for the world which motivated Him to part with His only
> > begotten Son. It was God the Father who resurrected His beloved
> > and gave Him FOREVER to US, to the human race - to be forever
> > identified with humanity. Let's give glory to God the Father,
> > we? He is the only true God who begot a Son in His express image
> and
> > who lives within each of His children by His Spirit. Let's give
> > glory to Him, for the hour of His judgement is come. (Revelation
> > 14:7)
> >
> > The three angels message, that SDA's were raised up to give but
> > aren't start out with the call to give glory to God. There's only
> > one God and that God is the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6). If the
> > church can't get that one right, which it's chosen NOT to, little
> > wonder then that the organization is failing to preach the
> > but rather is parroting Babylon with its Trinity god, for which
> > so-called "second person" only partially died as a partial
> > sacrifice.