Answers to Gene's Questions—Part 3

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Gene, 

 

My responses under yours. Ron

 

----- Original Message -----

From: gardening@liveliberty.ws

To: ldm@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 6:26 PM

Subject: [LDM] questions for all on the nature of Christ.

 

Ron thanks for prompting this.

 

Ron responds: You are welcome.

 

1.Do you think Jesus had the post-fall nature of Adam? Why? Did he have sin?

So his nature is somewhat different in that respect isn't it? Correct?

 

Ron responds: Ellen White said that Jesus had the nature of Adam after the fall. She said that Adam had our sinful nature. She said that Jesus had all our susceptibilities.

 

"He was made like unto His brethren, with the same susceptibilities, mental and physical. (Roget's Thesaurus lists susceptibilities and propensities as synonyms.) E.G. White, Review and Herald, 21085.

 

Christ did not have PERSONAL sin, but He was tempted in all points as we are and I believe this occurred when He had ALL OUR SINS laid upon Him. This is a most important point.

 

Christ had our sinful nature said Ellen White. God said in Heb. 2:17 that He took our infirmities and that it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren.

 

     The love and justice of God, and also the immutability of His law, are made manifest by the Saviour's life, no less than by His death. He assumed human nature with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. "Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." Matt. 8:17. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. He exercised in His own behalf no power which man can not exercise. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him of God. He gives us an example of perfect obedience. He has provided that we may become partakers of the divine nature and assures us that we may overcome as He overcame. His life testified that by the aid of the same divine power which Christ received it is possible for man to obey God's law. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 3}

 

February 1, 1908 Christ and the Law

 

Mrs. E. G. White

 

     When man, beguiled by Satan, disobeyed the divine law, God could not, even to save the lost race, change that law. God is love; His law is an expression of His character. To change His law would be to deny Himself; it would overthrow those principles with which are bound up the well-being of the whole universe. But in order to save the sinner, the Creator sacrificed Himself. The Father suffered in His Son. The measure of God's love is Christ. The Saviour's sacrifice was not to create in God a love that had not before existed; but it was the expression of a love that had not been appreciated or understood. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 1}

 

     The Son of God in becoming man's substitute, and bearing the curse which should fall upon man, pledged Himself in behalf of the race, to maintain the honor of the law of God. The Father has given the world into the hands of Christ, that through His mediatorial work He may save the sinner, and completely vindicate the claims of the law. His mission was to convince men of sin,--which is the transgression of the law, and through the merits of His blood, and by His mediation. He was to bring them back to obedience. Through the sacrifice of Christ, the law could be maintained, and the sinner could be pardoned,--not only freed from the power of sin, but renewed "after the image of Him that created him." Col. 3:10. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 2}

 

     The love and justice of God, and also the immutability of His law, are made manifest by the Saviour's life, no less than by His death. He assumed human nature with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. "Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." Matt. 8:17. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. He exercised in His own behalf no power which man can not exercise. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him of God. He gives us an example of perfect obedience. He has provided that we may become partakers of the divine nature and assures us that we may overcome as He overcame. His life testified that by the aid of the same divine power which Christ received it is possible for man to obey God's law. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 3}

 

     In Christ are united the divine and the human. The Creator and the creature, the nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus,--the Son of God and the Son of man. And having with His own blood paid the price of redemption, having passed through man's experience having in man's behalf met and conquered temptation, having, though Himself sinless, borne the shame and guilt and burden of sin, He becomes man's advocate and intercessor. What an assurance there is to the tempted and struggling soul, what an assurance to the witnessing universe, that Christ will be "a merciful and faithful high priest"! Heb. 2:17. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 4}

 

     What an assurance also that He will be a righteous, just, and compassionate judge, He who has measured the power of every subtle temptation of man's cruel foe, who has borne every weakness to which man is subject, He who is a Brother in our infirmities,--will He not deal justly and tenderly with the soul that His own blood has been poured out to save? And such is the teaching of His own words, when He said that the Father had "given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man." John 5:27.

 

                                               -
{BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 5}
 

 

2. If Christ's nature is to be implanted in humanity according to COL p.384 then

he must have something we do not. Wouldn't that be a reasonable conclusion?

And for the born again person isn't it something desirable? Like the Desire of Ages!

 

Ron responds: At His Incarnation sacrifice, He laid aside His Divine Nature Holy Spirit as a "highest good, crowning gift" to us. That is that nature that is to be implanted in the hearts of man under the New Covenant.

 

3.Isn't the Bible clear when we are told that Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh?

Never does it say he came in our sinful flesh does it, but the likeness of our flesh?

 

Ron responds: In addition to the verse about the likeness of sinful flesh, it also says:

 

"In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. He came with the results of 4,000 years of

 

"That He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh." Signs 09/03/02   "He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature." Med. Miss. 181, 1902  "For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity" Desire of Ages,117.

 

http://omega77.tripod.com/lightbearerhnc.htm

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/main/natx_.html

http://omega77.tripod.com/dilemmahumannature.htm

 

4. In what nature did Jesus need to come in order to vindicate God and man?

 

Ron responds: In man's nature to prove that man need not have ever sinned. It was the sacrifice of the Divine Nature in the heavenly sanctuary from the foundation of the earth that paid the price of the Testator, because the Son was DIVINE ONLY, when He volunteered to atone for sin and entered the Testator Covenant.

 

5. I mean the devil was saying that man could not keep the law and we are told that after the fall it is impossible for man to keep it, was the devil right?

 

Ron responds: Jesus took our nature to prove that even with 4,000 years of likeness of sinful flesh, we can overcome sin by the same means He overcame. He thus proved that Adam need not have sinned and that it was possible for man to keep the law before the fall. True, we cannot keep it after the fall without the aid of the Holy Spirit's empowerment, but Christ proved that even a man in our sinful nature, and will all the sins of the world laid upon Him, could keep His commandments by the aid of Divine strength. I have no doubt that Adam had access to Divine aid if he had wanted it.

 

"That He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh." Signs 09/03/02   "He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature." Med. Miss. 181, 1902  "For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity" Desire of Ages,117.

 

     The love and justice of God, and also the immutability of His law, are made manifest by the Saviour's life, no less than by His death. He assumed human nature with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. "Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." Matt. 8:17. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. He exercised in His own behalf no power which man can not exercise. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him of God. He gives us an example of perfect obedience. He has provided that we may become partakers of the divine nature and assures us that we may overcome as He overcame. His life testified that by the aid of the same divine power which Christ received it is possible for man to obey God's law. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 3}

 

6. I think or contend that Adam was not a deficient creation and was well able to keep the law before the fall so at what point was Jesus to come to prove man could in fact keep the law?

 

Ron responds: Jesus came at the point of 4,000 years of man's depravity to prove that by His Divine Nature, that where 4,000 years of sin abounds, the power of His Divine Nature grace much more abounds! and man need not sin.

 

7. I mean if after the fall man could not keep the law why would Jesus come to prove that man could in a fallen nature?

 

Ron responds: Christ came under the provision of the New Covenant, whereby His law, His character would be implanted in the heart (mind) of man, and the gift of His Holy Spirit Divine Nature would enable Him to be regenerated to the image of God by overcoming sin and the lust of the world. Thus, His mission was not only to forgive sin, but to regenerate (cure) man of the sin problem. As an elder of your church you should know that Gene.

 

8. Did he do that? 

 

Ron responds: Yes he did do just that!

 

9. He came to redeem man. Remember now in Peter we are told ,Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. So as we are told in COL we need a marriage to accomplish what is expected of us to have on the wedding garment. So living in our sinful flesh is a moot point as far as receiving salvation is concerned, correct?

 

Ron responds:   "The righteousness by which we are JUSTIFIED is imputed; the righteousness by which we are SANCTIFIED is imparted. The first is our title to heaven [Justification], the second is our fitness for heaven [Sanctification]." Messages to Young People, 35.

 

Our flesh is sinful until glorification, but our characters are to be purified. That is not a moot point! Sanctification is not a moot point as far as receiving salvation is concerned. Justification is our title to heaven. Sanctification is our fitness for heaven, and we will not go to heaven without both!

 

 

Jesus is our Redeemer. He practiced self-denial, self-sacrifice, and He loves us in our weakness and offers to us His strength. He says, "I have graven thee upon the palms of My hands." He will impart His Holy Spirit in the plenitude of His reviving, and there shall not be room enough to receive it. Nothing but the baptism of the Holy Spirit can bring up the church to its right position, and prepare the people of God for the fast approaching conflict. Why is there not individual growth in the church? Why is not every member of the church growing up into Christ our living head? This growth does not mean growing earthward, but heavenward; not downward, but upward. We are living in the dispensation of the Spirit. We hold in our hands the promise of His Spirit, and ministers may be qualified to give the trumpet a certain sound, to arouse the sleeping people and set them at work for themselves and for others out of the fold.--Letter 15, 1889, p. 5. (To Dr. Burke, Dec. 20, 1889.) {2MR 30.1}

 

     "God's ideal for His children is higher than the highest human thought can reach. . . . The plan of redemption contemplates our complete recovery from the power of Satan. Christ always separates the contrite soul from sin. He came to destroy the works of the devil, and He has made provision that the Holy Spirit shall be imparted to every repentant soul, to keep him from sinning." {FLB 44.3}

 

"The Holy Spirit is the breath of spiritual life in the soul. The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ. It imbues the receiver with the attributes of Christ." {FLB 57.2}

 

"Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine person, His merits, and His changeless love for the human family. All power is given into His hands, that He may dispense rich gifts unto men, imparting the priceless gift of His own righteousness to the helpless human agent. This is the message that God commanded to be given to the world. It is the third angel's message, which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice, and attended with the outpouring of His Spirit in a large measure."--TM 91, 92 (1895). {LDE 200.2}

 

The above two statements is why the Holy Spirit is the former life of Christ. He took the life that is ours that we might have the life that WAS HIS (PAST TENSE) The imparted Holy Spirit enabled His disciples, the apostles, to stand firmly against every species of idolatry and to exalt the Lord and Him alone. {2MR 14.3}    

 

The proclamation of the gospel is the only means by which God can employ human beings as His instrumentalities for the salvation of souls. As men, women, and children proclaim the gospel, the Lord will open the eyes of the blind to see His statutes, and will write upon the hearts of the truly penitent His law. The animating Spirit of God, working through human agencies, leads the believers to be as one mind, one soul, unitedly loving God and keeping His commandments--preparing here below for translation.--Ms 122, 1903, pp. 1-4. ("The Time of the End," Oct. 9, 1903.) {2MR 22.2}


     The earth itself with its golden lodes is not more promising than is the Word, the great garden of revealed truth; but its rich treasure will reward only the humble and contrite ones who search for it. The Holy Spirit will


                                      -23-

direct the searcher. A vast field, yet undiscovered, is to be worked that precious truth may be found to enrich the receiver, that he may impart his treasure to others. The Holy Spirit is to be presented in every discourse. {2MR 22.3}
     What wonderful statements Christ has made concerning His representative to the world! This is the theme of encouragement to be kept before the people. In comprehending the office of the Holy Spirit, we shall bring all blessings to ourselves. He will make us complete in Christ.--Ms 8, 1898, pp. 5, 6. ("The Necessity of Studying the Word," no date.) {2MR 23.1}


     Let
there be a work of reformation and repentance. Let all seek for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. As with the disciples after the ascension of Christ, it may require several days of earnestly seeking God and putting away of sin. {2MR 23.2}


     When God's people are worked by the Holy Spirit, they will manifest a zeal that is according to knowledge. When they are guided by the Spirit, they will no longer lead others in false paths. They will reflect the light that God has been giving for years. The spirit of criticism will be put away. Filled with the spirit of humility, they will be of one mind, united with one another and with Christ.--Ms 107, 1903, p. 7. (Diary, "Unity With the Father," Sept. 15, 1903.) {2MR 23.3}


     As a people we need to seek most earnestly for the energizing power of the Holy Spirit. We need to be born again. "A new heart," Christ says, "I will give you." He takes the things of God, and shows them to those who follow Him in meekness and lowliness.--Letter 200, 1902, p. 6. (To Dr. and Mrs. D. H. Kress, Dec. 15, 1902.)


10. John tells us, Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5  In other words we have to be in as Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. So we have to be like Jesus don't we?

 

Ron responds: Yes indeed.

 

11. What would be the problem with Christ having the nature of Adam before the fall?

 

Ron responds: If Christ had the nature of Adam before the fall, He would have proved ONLY that man undepraved by sin need not have sinned. The great demonstration made by Christ coming in the condition of 4,000 years of man's depravity, was to prove the power of Divine Grace--that even where so much sin abounded and abounds, His grace power much more abounds! This should convince us of His power to keep us from sinning NOW, before glorification.

 

12. To think that Jesus had sinful flesh not a problem but to say the Jesus is exactly like us might be don't you think?

 

Ron responds: Jesus was not EXACTLY like us, but the following factors level the playing field:

  1. In the depravity of human sinful nature, He took upon Himself ALL sin of every man ever born and still bore such in faithfulness to obedience unto death. We don't have to do that!
  2. We are given His Holy Spirit Divine Nature to overcome just as He did. He proved that Holy Spirit to be so powerful as to be able to overcome sin, even when having all the sin of the world laid upon a man with 4,000 years of sinful nature depravity. There is thus no excuse for sin.

13. Are you saying that Jesus was just like us in all aspects?

 

Ron responds: No, He never sinned. But He experienced the temptation of all our sins when they were laid upon Him, and overcame such temptation in sinful flesh by the empowerment of His Father's Holy Spirit Divine Nature, the same nature we may obtain to indwell and empower us.

 

14. Now when John speaks of the antichrist in the following does he distinguish as to the pre or post flesh of Christ? Isn't it really up for grabs? Although I am clear on this!

 

Ron responds: Personally, I believe that John is referring to folk like Catholics and some SDA's who believe that Jesus did not come in our sinful flesh. They teach the doctrine of Original Sin, and that anyone coming in our sinful flesh would automatically be a sinner. That is the doctrine of antiChrist and many SDA's have adopted that doctrine.

 

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 2 John 1:7 

The Acts of the Apostles (1911), page 554, paragraph 2

Chapter Title: A Faithful Witness

Writing to a helper in the gospel work, a woman of good repute and wide influence, he said: "Many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed: for he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds."

 

There is a doctrine that God has a church and it has evidence to show which church it is. Study Rev 12

and it is clear.

 

The Church Militant,

Gene

 

Ron responds: The doctrine of Original Sin, is not the doctrine of Christ, and those who believe and teach it hath not God.

 

Ron