Does God Withdraw His Presence
From the Church?
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The following
statements were presented to an internet forum by DD. In an attempt to prove
that no matter what the church does, the Lord does not withdraw His presence. DD
has adopted the A. Leroy Moore negative/positive pole methodology of using
Ellen White statements. He takes a negative and positive statement on any given
issue and then chooses the positive one.
Below is a classic
example. The first statement used by DD is the negative and the second is the
positive. DD then concludes that God does not withdraw Himself from His people
under any circumstance. But we find a very different picture when we heed Ellen
White’s weight of evidence formula which instructs us to take all available
evidence and interpret so that nothing contradicts. I will provide the
additional weight of evidence regarding whether or not God departs and/or
withdraws from a once chosen people. First, I will cite Ellen White weight of
evidence formula:
Weight of Evidence
Formula: "1. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject
presented in the Bible 2. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by
diligent application and study 3. Nothing revealed in Scripture can or will be
hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering 4. To understand doctrine, bring
all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to know, then let every
word have its proper influence and if you can form your theory without a
contradiction, you cannot be in error 5. Scripture must be its own expositor,
[interpreter] since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound
to me, and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account
of his sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire,
creed, or wisdom is my rule, and not the Bible." E.G. White, Second Advent Review and Herald, 11-25-84, par. 24.
Here is Googled
proof of Dr. A. Leroy Moore’s methodology:
1.
[PDF] Chapter
1
www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further.../Adventism%20in%20Conflict.pdf
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
by L Moore - 2003 - Cited by 2
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Now an example of one
of Moore’s disciples, DD., applying the negative/positive pole theory of
interpreting Ellen White:
1NL 99 (1898). {LDE 49.1}
"The church is in the Laodicean
state. The presence of God is not in her midst.”-- - - - What
a terrible thing it is to exclude Christ from His own temple! What a loss to
the church!"
Ron responds: The statement clearly says that the presence of God is not in the
midsts of the Laodicean church. DD even admits this fact by saying: “What a
terrible thing it is to exclude Christ from His own temple! What a loss to the
church. Then he proceeds to try to prove that God does not withdraw Himself
from the church. Either God does withdraw or He does not! It can’t be both
ways, and ultimately DD concludes that God does not withdraw. This is CONFUSION
at its worst! This is double-speak at its worst! This is deception at its
worst!
Then in 1901 she said that the Lord does not withdraw Himself from His
people and in 1902 that the church, enfeebled and defective though it be, is
the only object on earth on which on which Christ bestows His supreme reDDd.
Ron responds: DD,
the person who presented the above statements on an internet forum never seems
to be able to arrive at the full weight of evidence on any given issue. It
should be noted that Ulicia Unruh does the same thing with many E.G. White
statements.
The matter as
to whether or not God departs/withdraws from a once chosen people, a once
church, teaches the folly of the methodology DD learn from one of A. Leroy Moore’s
books on apostasy.
What SDA
leaders and some of the laity would have you believe by the above statement
quoted by DD, is that no matter what the church does, no matter how apostate it
becomes, it is still the supreme object of God’s affection and God never
withdraws from the church He has chosen. That is not how it worked with God’s
first “chosen” people, the Jews, and that is now how it is going to work with
his second “chosen” people!
Qualifying words and phrases are so important.
The quote above demonstrates this fact. God does not withdraw from HIS PEOPLE,
but He does WITHDRAW from those who depart from Him.
God
Withdraws
“It
is with reluctance that the
Lord withdraws His presence from those who have been blessed with great
light and who have felt the power of the word in ministering to others. They were once His
faithful servants, favored with His presence and guidance; but they departed from Him and led others into error, and
therefore are brought under the divine displeasure.” {5T 212.2}
God
Departs
“The command is: ‘Go through the
midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the
foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be
done in the midst thereof.’ These sighing, crying ones had been holding forth the
words of life; they had reproved, counseled, and entreated. Some who had been
dishonoring God repented and humbled their hearts before Him. But the glory of the Lord had departed from Israel; although many still continued the forms of
religion, His power and presence were lacking.” {5T 210.2}
God
Withdraws His Spirit
“Men cannot with
impunity reject the warnings that God in mercy sends them. From those who
persist in turning from these warnings, God withdraws His Spirit, leaving them to the deceptions that they love.”—Acts of the Apostles,
266.
A Bill
of Divorce
Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding
Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce;
yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot
also.
There are
extremely important qualifying words in Ellen White’s statement that God does
not withdraw Himself from
HIS PEOPLE
when they are merely defective and enfeebled. When all the weight of evidence is considered,
defective and enfeebled cannot include gross apostasy, for we find that such
apostates are to be removed from the church and that God is removed from such a
God. (1SM 204-205). Ellen White does not contradict herself, but DD is making
her statements contradict. How?
·
DD very obviously assumes that tares include open sinners.
·
The church can retain open sinners. One must merely mingle with the wheat
and avoid the open sinners.
·
Leaders can teach open sin apostate doctrines which sweep away the entire
Christian economy via displacement of the Sanctuary/Atonement, but the members
are not responsible per the personal opinion theories of Ulicia
Unruh, DD, and any member of the new movement, new organization who concludes
as these two do.
·
In Jeremiah 11:9-15, Israel conspired with God’s enemies to return to the
iniquities of their forefathers. What happened to God’s presence? Did it
WITHDRAW from His People, the Jews of that generation? Notice:
Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift
up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry
unto me for their trouble.
15What hath my beloved
to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the
holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou
rejoicest. Jeremiah 11:14, 15.
Did the Holy Flesh (God) PASS FROM HIS HOUSE, HIS
TEMPLE, HIS PEOPLE?
·
Was that generation of
Jews His Church, His people, when they conspired with His enemies to return to
the iniquities of their forefathers? The answer should be clear to any
Christian with the least degree of spiritual discernment.
·
Did Christ bestow His
supreme reDDd on that generation of Jews when He told
Jeremiah not to even pray for them and they thus had committed unpardonable
sin?
The only sane
resolution to the “apparently” contradictory statements is arrived at by
carefully deciphering qualifying words and phrases. God does not depart from
HIS CHURCH, HIS PEOPLE, because of mere faults, defects and enfeeblements. But
He does depart from and divorce those who go beyond such faults to backslide to
the point of refusing to comply with His CONDITIONS, departing from Him, and
separating themselves from His love. Thus, they reject the Laodicean message
which is to buy gold tried in the fire—faith that works by the indwelling
self-sacrificing love of Christ.
Now we come to the
real serious consequence of DD’s methodology as taught by A. Leroy’s Moore’s
book. Moore’s methodology would expunge the following serious prophesy of Ellen
White on the final fate of the SDA church. This fate of the church could never
accrue if God never withdraws from the SDA church that departs from Him.
"Jesus sends HIS PEOPLE
a message of warning to prepare them for his coming. To the prophet John was
made known the closing work in the great plan of man's redemption. He beheld an
angel flying 'in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to
preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred,
and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to
him for the hour of his Judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and
earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters [Rev. 14:6, 7.].
The angel represented in prophecy as delivering this message,
symbolizes a class of faithful men,
who, obedient to the promptings of God's Spirit and the teachings of his word,
proclaim this warning to the inhabitants of earth. This message was not to be committed to the religious leaders of the
people. They had failed to preserve their connection with God, and had
REFUSED THE LIGHT FROM HEAVEN therefore they WERE NOT of the number described
by the apostle Paul: 'But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day
should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the
children of the day we are not of the night nor of darkness' [1 Thess. 5:4,
5].
The watchmen upon the walls
of Zion should be the first to catch the tidings of the Saviour's
advent, the first to lift their voices to proclaim him near, the first to warn
the people to prepare for his coming. But they were at ease, dreaming of peace
and safety, while the people were asleep in their sins. Jesus saw HIS CHURCH,
like the barren fig-tree, covered with pretentious leaves, yet destitute of
precious fruit. There was a boastful observance of the forms of religion, while
the spirit of true humility, penitence and faith--which alone could render the
service acceptable to God--was lacking. Instead of the graces of the Spirit,
there were manifested pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, oppression. A BACKSLIDING CHURCH closed
their eyes to the signs of the times. God did nor forsake them, or suffer his
faithfulness to fail but they departed from
him, and SEPARATED THEMSELVES from his
love. As they REFUSED TO COMPLY WITH
THE CONDITIONS, his promises were NOT FULFILLED to them."
E.G. White, The Spirit of Prophecy, Vol. 4, pp. 199-200 [The
1884 edition of The Great Controversy, 199, 200].
So you can see why
Ellen White would say that there is no greater deception than those who think
they are all right, when they are all wrong:
“What greater deception can come upon human
minds than a confidence that they are right, when they are all wrong? The message of the
True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception.
They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While
those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual
condition, the message of the True
Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true
situation of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness. The testimony, so
cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake; for it is the True Witness who speaks,
and his testimony must be correct.” {RH, September 16, 1873 par. 5}
1862: "The distance is widening between Christ
and His people, and lessening between them and the world. The marks of
distinction between Christ's professed people and the world have almost
disappeared. Like ancient Israel, they follow after the abominations of the
nations around them."
"Those who will be heirs of God, and
joint heirs with Christ to the immortal inheritance, will be peculiar. Yes, so
peculiar that God places a mark upon them as His, wholly His. Think ye that God
will receive, honor, and acknowledge a people so mixed up with the world that
they differ from them only in name?" Testimonies,
Vol. 1, pp. 274-87.
1865: "In their present state of worldly
ambition, with their lack of consecration to God, their devotion to self, they
are wholly unfit to receive the latter rain... They think they are all right when they are
all wrong." Testimonies,
Vol. 1 pp. 466-69, 478-79.
—rwb