Janine's Response to my Questions Concerning the Church

Dear Reader,

I asked the following questions to the members of an SDA e-group. The questions are based on my Website document entitled "In 1903, Ellen White Said the SDA Church Was a Harlot of Babylon--Has That Changed?"

Janine is a thinking and educated person who answered my questions so I decided to publish her answers on my Website. My questions are in black print. Janine's answers appear in blue. In this letter, I make a response to Janine's answers first and then you can read all of the questions and answers.

For the full context of the E.G. White statements Janine is responding to, see the document on this Website Menu entitled: "In 1903, Ellen White Said the SDA Church Was a Harlot of Babylon--Has That Changed?"

Janine,

Here is my response to your answer to the last of my questions. The question was:

• In spite of the above scenario of the fate of the church, a faithful remnant escapes out of Jerusalem, Isaiah 37:31,32, and Ezekiel 5:3.A few in number are taken in His skirt and saved. That is the true Seventh-day Adventist ship that goes through.

Ron responds: There is a huge problem with the "time will tell" part of your statement. Time will certainly tell, but all who waited for time to tell in A.D. 70, were slaughtered at the Temple and in the city of Jerusalem. The faithful fled Jerusalem 3 1/2 years before it was destroyed. Notice:

"In the autumn of A.D. 66, Cestius next concentrated his entire force upon Jerusalem. He arrived during the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles, and although it was Sabbath, the Jews abandoned their religious rites and rushed out to attack Cestius' troops. To the amazement of both Romans and the Jews, they broke the Roman ranks. Indeed, Josephus declares that only a flank attack by a force of footmen and Calvary saved Cestius' forces. More than 500 Roman soldiers were killed, whereas the Jews lost only 22 men (War ii. 19. 2 [519]). At this point Agrippa sent an embassy to the Jews; their reaction was to attack his representatives, killing one and wounding the other. Encouraged by a promise of the royalist party in Jerusalem to open the gates for him, Cestius then gathered his troops to fresh assault, and penetrated as far as the north wall of the Temple. Then an astounding thing happened: Cestius withdrew his troops, and placed himself strategically in such a poor position among the Judean hills that the Jews were able to attack him and kill more than 5,000 infantry and nearly 50 calvary, including many officers, as well as to capture much material.

A Lull in the Storm.--The defeat and withdrawal of Cestius gave many of the conservative Jews a chance to flee from Jerusalem. Some of them joined Agrippa, others sought quiet in country places, and still others left the country entirely. It was at this time that the Christians in Jerusalem fled in accordance with the warnings of Jesus recorded in Matt. 24:15-19. According to Eusebius, the 4th-century church historian, the Christians in Jerusalem had been warned by prophets before the war began that they should leave the doomed city and find refuge at Pella in Peraea. They now took this opportunity to make good their escape (Ecclesiastical History iii. 5.3). During this time of comparative peace in Judea, however, the Jews of Damascus suffered bitterly. The Gentiles there had penned them up in the gymnasium under suspicion. When they learned of the Jewish victory in Jerusalem, they massacred more than 10,000 of them in one day." SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 5, pp. 74, 75.

Those who did not believe the prophets of God took a "wait and see" stance. They were destroyed. In some situations the "wait and see" attitude is lethal. Keep in mind that The Great Controversy, Chapter 1, says that the Temple leaders hired false prophets telling the people to remain in Jerusalem and that since they were God's chosen people, the enemy, the Romans would never penetrate the 20 foot thick wall of the city.

Then there is the IDENTITY problem. Ellen White said that the saints will become obscure to the Catholics:

"I saw the nominal church and nominal Adventists, like Judas, would betray us to the Catholics to obtain their influence to come against the truth. The saints then will be an obscure [hidden] people, little known to the Catholics; but the churches and nominal Adventists who know of our faith and customs (for they hate us on account of the Sabbath, for they could not refute it) will betray the saints and report them to the Catholics as those who disregard the institutions of the people; that is, that they keep the Sabbath and disregard Sunday.

Then the Catholics bid the Protestants to go forward, and issue a decree that all who will not observe the first day of the week, instead of the seventh day, shall be slain. And the Catholics, whose numbers are large, will stand by the Protestants. The Catholics will give their power to the image of the beast. And the Protestants will work as their mother worked before them to destroy the saints. But before their decree bring or bear fruit, the saints will be delivered by the Voice of God. Then I saw that Jesus' work in the sanctuary will soon be finished. And after His work there is finished, He will come to the door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the Scape Goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues will come upon the wicked, and they do not come till Jesus puts on that garment, and takes Hs place upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling, the Scape Goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that leads him. If he should effect his escape, Israel would lose their lives. I saw that it would take time to lead away the Scape Goat into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put on his head.

The great white cloud I saw was not the holy place, but entirely separate from the holy and most holy place, entirely separate from the sanctuary.

Then the angel repeated these words, and said, 'This is the time spoken of in Isaiah. He saw that there was not man, and wondered that there was no intercessor. He had no mediator between God and man, and these plagues could be withheld no longer, for Jesus had ceased to plead for Israel, and they were covered with the covering of the Almighty God, and they could live in the sight of a holy God, and those who were not covered, the plagues fell upon them, for they had nothing to shelter or protect them from the wrath of God." E.G. White, Dorchester, Maine, October 23, 1850, Spalding--Magan's Unpublished Mss. Testimonies, pp. 1, 2.

Travel impeded--I have read a curious statement by Ellen White which says that travel will be greatly impeded at the end-time, so those who do not flee when they should will not be able to leave. That same situation existed in A.D. 70!

I have also read that due to the church's ecumenical liaisons with the WCC and NCC, that these agencies have privy to the names and addresses of every New Movement Seventh-day Adventist, and that they have such in their possession. I have read that the Lord's Day Alliance also possesses these records. Interesting!

Jesus was taking folk away from the apostate Jewish church for 43 years before Jerusalem was destroyed. Will that also be part of the antitypical fulfillment of the PREFIGURE of A.D. 70? Some will take a "wait and see" attitude, and we do not have to wait and see what the outcome will be. The PREFIGURE tells the end of the story--the final chapter in the fate of the current day New Movement professing SDA church masquerading

as the "chosen" people of God, just as the apostate Jewish church did in the PREFIGURE TYPE. It is all so clear, and yet those who love their church more than God and the servants He has chosen to warn them, will pass on and be destroyed. It is a very sad state of affairs Janine.

Ron Beaulieu

• Ellen White said in Early Writings, 273, that the fallen churches are indistinguishable from the world. So is co-partnership with the Catholics an entanglement with the world?

Questions:

• From the evidence in the above statement, [statement snipped; please refer to original post] does the church reform "when His wrath shall go forth in judgments?" or is deception of almost every kind in the church?

Questions and Statements:

• "When the danger and depression of the church are greatest..." is a serious time of trouble. Even the time of Jacob's Great Trouble. According to Ellen White, probation will be over at that time.
• What are the MEMBERS of the church doing at that time? Are they doing "after the manner of the world?"

Janine: As this time of trouble has not yet begun I can't really answer that question. At the present time the church is still going "after the manner of the world". If a turn-around does not occur and soon the church will be a big pile of vomit. These are not my words. These are the words of the Saviour to John.

Is there any record that the church repented?

Ellen White said in Early Writings, 273, that the fallen churches are indistinguishable from the world. So is co-partnership with the Catholics an entanglement with the world?

Questions:

From the evidence in the above statement, [statement snipped; please refer to original post] does the church reform "when His wrath shall go forth in judgments?" or is deception of almost every kind in the church?

"When the danger and depression of the church are greatest..." is a serious time of trouble. Even the time of Jacob's Great Trouble. According to Ellen White, probation will be over at that time.

What are the MEMBERS of the church doing at that time? Are they doing "after the manner of the world?"

Janine: As this time of trouble has not yet begun I can't really answer that question. At the present time the church is still going "after the manner of the world". If a turn-around does not occur and soon the church will be a big pile of vomit. These are not my words. These are the words of the Saviour to John.

Janine: Ellen White alluded to Ezekiel 5 and the sighing and crying statement comes directly from Ezekiel 9 and as EGW is giving the warning it MUST refer to her church. I can't claim to know Mrs White's reasons for saying things so I had best leave the next question unanswered. I think those who believe the bad are going to leave the church and the faithful will remain need to carefully study Ezekiel 9 because this concept is in direct opposition to the prophecy. Prophecy is sure no matter how much mainstream wants to ignore it.

In spite of the above scenario of the fate of the church, a faithful remnant escapes out of Jerusalem, Isaiah 37:31,32, and Ezekiel 5:3.A few in number are taken in His skirt and saved. That is the true Seventh-day Adventist ship that goes through.