Questions and Answers on the Godhead #1

 

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Dear Reader,

I published this item earlier, but have added much important data to this presentation, because of additional light given to me by the Lord.

The following exchange occurred between myself (Ron B.) and another person I shall anonymously refer to as John Doe. This is not a hypothetical situation. John Doe is a real person who wrote to me the following email:

John Doe to Ron: "Then put into context this statement EGW made in Counsels on Health, p. 222.”

(Quoted by John Doe—Emphasis supplied by Ron Beaulieu)

"The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more. With Christ He gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting in the plan for man's uplifting. Here is love--the contemplation of which should fill the soul with inexpressible gratitude! Oh, what love, what matchless love! The contemplation of this love will cleanse the soul from all selfishness. It will lead the disciple to deny self, take up the cross, and follow the Redeemer."

Ron replies:

·       If the person of the Holy Spirit is the soul of the life of Christ’s DIVINE LIFE, as we will prove, then the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are only TWO PERSONS.

·       In the sense of what Ellen White refers to as THE ETERNAL HEAVENLY DIGNITARIES, THE HEAVENLY TRIO, and that the THREE had part in deciding the Everlasting Covenant proviso for the sin problem, since the Holy Ghost was the sire to Christ’s humanity, in that sense there were three eternal persons—ONLY IN THE SENSE THAT THE HOLY GHOST IS THE FATHER OF CHRIST’S HUMANITY. But in truth, there were only TWO PERSONS before the Holy Ghost sired the humanity of Christ into the womb of Mary.

·       Ellen White said that Divinity DID NOT die on the cross. So how did Divinity give Himself as an offering for sin.

·       The Testator’s Covenant, Hebrews 9:16, 17, says that the Testator must die. The Testator when the Everlasting Covenant was Testated, was the DIVINE ONLY Son of God. He was not any part human at that time.

·       “Christ had stooped to take upon Himself man’s nature; He was to bear an infinite weight of woe as He should make His soul an offering for sin; yet angels desire that even in His humiliation the Son of the Highest might appear before men with a dignity and glory befitting His character.” E.G. White, The Great Controversy, pp. 313, 314.

·       "Christ declared that after his ascension, he would send to his church, as his crowning gift, the Comforter, who was to take his place. This Comforter is the Holy Spirit,--the soul of his life, the efficacy of his church, the light and life of the world. With his Spirit Christ sends a reconciling influence and a power that takes away sin.

In the gift of the Spirit [HIS LIFE--THE SOUL OF HIS LIFE], Jesus gave to man the highest good that heaven could bestow....

The Spirit was given as a regenerating agency, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail....

It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given his Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress his own character upon the church." E.G. White, Review and Herald Articles, May 19, 1904, vol. 5, p. 42.

·       Who gave Himself an offering for sin? It was the Testator, the Son’s Holy Spirit, the soul of the life of Christ BEFORE His incarnation. But how did He offer His Holy Spirit soul of His life as an offering for sin if Divinity did not die on the cross? Answer: He FOREVER died to His former life as being DIVINE ONLY—AS BEING ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT, by taking a human form, God manifest in the likeness of sinful flesh.

·       1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

·       But still, even though God was manifest in the flesh, Divinity did not die on the cross says Ellen White—because it is impossible for Divinity to die! So the death of the Testator in some FOREVER, ETERNAL FORM, had to be the cessation of being DIVINE ONLY, for that state of His being was forever altered when He was manifest in the flesh TO BE A MAN PRIEST FOREVER.

·       Hebrews 7:24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

·       “In stooping to take upon Himself humanity, Christ revealed a character the opposite of the character of Satan. . . . In taking our nature, the Saviour has bound Himself to humanity by a tie that is never to be broken. Through the eternal ages He is linked with us. "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son." John 3:16. He gave Him not only to bear our sins, and to die as our sacrifice; He gave Him to the fallen race. To assure us of His immutable counsel of peace, God gave His only-begotten Son to become one of the human family, forever to retain His human nature. This is the pledge that God will fulfill His word. "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder." God has adopted human nature in the person of His Son, and has carried the same into the highest heaven.”--Ibid., p. 25. {7ABC 456.4}

·       "He (Christ) suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which WAS His." Desire of Ages, p. 25 1 Cor. 11:24-265, cf. John 6:53, 54, Titus 3:5, 6.

·       What life WAS (PAST TENSE) His? It was His Holy Spirit DIVINE ONLY life that WAS HIS. This is what He proffers to us.

·       What death was ours? Eternal death right!? The wages of sin is eternal death, not three days in a tomb and then eternal life!

·       Christ became one flesh with us, in order that we might become one spirit with Him. It is by virtue of this union that we are to come forth from the grave,--not merely as a manifestation of the power of Christ, but because, through faith, His life has become ours. Those who see Christ in His true character, and receive Him into the heart, have everlasting life. It is through the Spirit that Christ dwells in us; and the Spirit of God, received into the heart by faith, is the beginning of the life eternal.” Desire of Ages, p. 388.

·       Who was there at the foundation of the earth offering Himself an offering for sin? Was it the humanity of Christ, or was it the pure divinity of the Son? What was the pure divinity of the Son? It was HIS ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT ESSENCE? So, was the ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT ESSENCE there, offering Himself, HIS ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT ESSENCE as an offering for sin? I say a thousand times YES! It was that ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT ESSENCE OF THE SON that was the Testator, and not any human offering Himself as a sacrifice in the Heavenly Sanctuary Atonement. And what was the sacrifice for sin? What was the wages for sin? Eternal death. So that ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT ESSENCE of the Son of God, had to die eternally somehow. That was a necessary requisite in order to FULLY carry out the plan of Salvation and to fulfill the Testator’s Covenant:

Hbr 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Hbr 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Clearly, if there were three persons to the Godhead from all eternity, when God was manifest in the flesh, and the personality of the Holy Spirit was HIMSELF divested from the humanity of Christ, and independent thereof, as Ellen White states, that is why and when another person accrued—the human part of the Godhead. That never existed before the Incarnation. And Ellen White says Christ’s humanity was separated from the person of His Holy Spirit HIMSELF. If there were three persons before the Holy Ghost sired the humanity of Christ, then there would be four persons after the Incarnation. If Christ was not TOTALLY DIVESTED FROM, TOTALLY SEPARATED FROM HIS FORMER BEING AS HOLY SPIRIT ONLY, then there was NO ETERNAL SACRIFICE—thus, no eternal ransom for the wages of man’s sin which are eternal death, not three days in a tomb! Without that ETERNAL SACRIFICE (DEATH) to His former BEING, the Testator’s Covenant would not be ratified and that covenant would thus be of NO STRENGTH, because there would be no eternal continuum of death of the Testator to something—anything.

Since the Father and the Son possessed the same ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT SUBSTANCE AND ESSENCE, it is not unusual wording, or redundant wording, to say that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit gave themselves. Obviously, the ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT OF THE FATHER AND THE SON WAS THERE. This DOES NOT necessarily imply or demand a third person until it became necessary for the Holy Spirit to be divested of humanity when Christ became invested with humanity. It was at that time that the Holy Spirit became a successor to Christ in the earth:

“Cumbered with humanity Christ could not be in every place personally, therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them to go to His Father and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit.” E.G. White, (Manuscript Releases Volume 14 (No’s 1081-1135) MR No.1084.

Questions:

1) When did the Holy Spirit become Christ's successor on earth?

2) Was the Holy Spirit Christ's successor on earth while Christ was on the earth?

3) When did the Disciples receive the Holy Spirit? Did they receive it while Christ was on earth? No! Why Not? If the Holy Spirit was Christ's successor on earth and that third person Holy Spirit was here on earth in addition to Christ, why did He have to go back to the Father and send His Holy Spirit as His successor on earth?

4) If the Holy Spirit has been in the earth since eternity, why did He have to be the successor of Christ at His Incarnation? Was it not already in the earth from all eternity according to the Trinity Doctrine?

John Doe says: "If all three persons of the Godhead laid the plans for man's salvation, then the Holy Spirit had to be a person at that time. She says they gave Themselves, speaking of all three persons of the Godhead. Ron, how does this statement fit into your thinking?"

Ron replies: Christ and the Father were PERSONS. They gave THEMSELVES to the working out of a plan of Redemption. They agreed that Christ would sacrifice HIS ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT SUBSTANCE, as a regenerating gift for man. When the Son did that at the Incarnation, He divested His Holy Spirit HIMSELF from the person of His humanity, and His humanity added another person to the Godhead. Then there were three. The humanity of the Son was God manifest in the flesh, and His Sire was the Holy Ghost. So in that sense, ALL THREE EXISTED FROM ETERNITY, but the humanity of Christ was not part of the Godhead for eternity. But the humanity equation WAS NOT part of the Godhead at the making of the Testator’s Covenant. The Testator, the Son of God, was DIVINE ONLY. And remember that Ellen White said that Divinity did not die on the cross because Divinity cannot die. So how was the Testator’s Covenant fulfilled if Divinity, the Testator, could not die? The death involved was another form of death which was different from our understanding of death. The Testator FOREVER “DIED” to being a divine person only. That was the highest good, crowning gift that heaven could bestow to man, for by that death, the life that WAS HIS, was provided for us in the form of the eternal Holy Spirit indwelling us for eternity. This could not happen without the Testator’s Covenant sacrifice that paid the eternal wages of sin—eternal death to something—namely the FOREVER FORFEITURE of His being DIVINE ONLY.

Question:

Was it the death of a perfect human on the Cross that provided the FULL regenerating agency to cleanse the soul from all sin and selfishness, or was it ALSO the sacrifice of the Son's ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT LIFE AND MIND, that was laid aside for us, and could not be given to us until Christ returned to His Father and pleaded His blood in exchange for that gift being sent to us? Answer. The Holy Spirit Divine Nature of the Son of God provided the cure for sin, and the Son’s humanity taking of all the sins of man upon Himself and overcoming them all, provided redemption or pardon for sin. So we have the CURE and PARDON—Redemption.

Any belief system that negates either is a false lie of Satan, and one of those false belief systems is the Trinity Doctrine, which says that the Holy Spirit was not sacrificed as a gift to us, but was merely a life that existed from eternity extra to the life of Christ, which conveys the benefits of Christ's death on the cross to us, with no mention that the Holy Spirit was the very sacrifice that the Son proffered in heaven at the foundation of the earth. He offered Himself--HIS ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT ESSENCE as a regenerating gift and a CURE for sin, and without this CURE, the sacrifice on the cross would have been to no avail but to pardon ongoing sin forever.

John Doe says: "As has been pointed out over and over to you, the Eternal Trio have ever been at work for mankind's salvation. Yes, Jesus has chosen to unite humanity with divinity through His person. He has chosen to assure us of that connection by continuing to minister for us as the Divine, human priest, clothed in humanity. The Holy Spirit as Christ's successor points us to the salvation we have in and through Jesus Christ.

Ron, there is nothing in the statement that says anything about the Holy Spirit being Christ without His humanity.”

Ron replies: Where in the E. G. White statement John quotes, is the humanity of Christ ONCE mentioned? The soul of the life of the Son was THE HOLY SPIRIT. There was no THIRD PERSON. All the statement mentions is the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, the soul of the life of the Son’s DIVINITY. Where is mention of any humanity? How could the humanity of the Son be part of the Godhead before the Incarnation sacrifice when the Son became God manifest in the flesh?

John Doe says: “It is equating the Holy Spirit as being as much a person as is the Father. Ron, why can't you just grasp the plain English of the statement instead of twisting it to meet the theological convolutions your mind goes through when confronted with the truth about God?”

Ron replies: I fully believe and agree that the Holy Spirit was as much a person as not only the Father, but as the Son. But the Son was THE HOLY SPIRIT, not any part of humanity. He was the person, THE ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT SUBSTANCE ESSENCE, SOUL OF THE LIFE of both the Son and the Father. There was not a third INDEPENDENT PERSON until Christ laid His ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT ESSENCE aside, EMPTYING HIMSELF of possessing ONLY THAT STATE OF BEING, as a gift to us, and then that Holy Spirit became His successor in the earth in the form of God manifest in the likeness of sinful, human flesh, says Scripture. Before that, the ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT OF THE FATHER AND THE SON were in the earth, but the Spirit was not then given in power because Jesus had not been glorified and enthroned, which meant that His gift was THEN acceptable to the Father, and could now be administered (executed) to man for the first time in power, because for the first time, man could possess the Divine Nature Mind of Christ's ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT LIFE AND SOUL.

"In times past holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In ancient times the prophets searched what the spirit of God which was in them signified. The Spirit was not then given in power because Jesus was not yet glorified." E.G. White Manuscript Releases Volume One, p. 364.

I must interpret the Counsels on Health, p. 222, statement with the following statements, so that nothing contradicts:

“Cumbered with humanity Christ could not be in every place personally, therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them to go to His Father and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit.” E.G. White, (Manuscript Releases Volume 14 (No’s 1081-1135) MR No.1084.

Questions:

1) If the Holy Spirit was a third person from all eternity, why could He not just be Christ's successor on earth as it always had been according to the trinity doctrine?

2) What prevented the Holy Spirit, as a third, distinct and separate person from the Son (Christ) from operating in the earth all during Christ's life on this earth? Why did Christ have to leave the earth and go to His Father, to send a Holy Spirit that had existed since all eternity as a third person of the Godhead?

3) Why could not Christ represent Himself as being present in all places by His Holy Spirit third person while He was on earth, without having first to return to heaven? Why not just send the third person representative Holy Spirit while Christ was on earth? What prevented that?

More specifically concerning the statement from Counsels on Health, p. 222, I can only conclude that the Father and the Son were THE ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT. Therefore it is not out of place for Ellen White to mention the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as being eternal beings, as they became THREE when the humanity of Christ was added to the Godhead at the Incarnation, and because the Holy Ghost was the sire of the humanity of Christ. In that sense, the humanity of Christ was eternal—because His father was eternal, but the humanity of Christ on His mother’s side was not a part of the Godhead until the Incarnation sacrifice.

"In times past holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In ancient times the prophets searched what the spirit of God which was in them signified. The Spirit was not then given in power because Jesus was not yet glorified." E.G. White Manuscript Releases Volume One, p. 364.

God has adopted Christ’s Human Nature in Heaven

“He is our sacrifice, our Advocate, our Brother, bearing our human form before the Father's throne, and through eternal ages one with the race He has redeemed--the Son of Man.” Heaven, p. 73.

“God has adopted human nature in the person of His Son, and has carried the same into the highest heaven. Heaven,” p. 72.

"By His life and His death, Christ has achieved even more than recovery from the ruin wrought through sin. It was Satan's purpose to bring about an eternal separation between God and man but in Christ we become more closely united to God than if we had never fallen. In taking our nature, the Saviour has bound himself to humanity by a tie that is never to be broken. Through the eternal ages He is linked with us. 'God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son.' [John 3:16]. He gave Him not only to bear our sins, and to die as our sacrifice He gave Him to the fallen race. To assure us of His immutable counsel of peace, God gave His only Begotten Son to become one of the human family forever to retain His human nature. This is the pledge that God will fulfill His word. 'Unto us a child is born unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon His shoulder.' God has adopted human nature in the person of His Son, and has carried the same into the highest heaven. It is the 'Son of man' who shares the throne of the universe. It is the 'Son of man' whose name shall be called, 'Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the prince of Peace.' [Isa. 9:6]. The I Am is the Daysman between God and humanity, laying His hand upon both. HE who is 'holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners,' is not ashamed to call us brethren. [Heb. 7:26 2:11.] In Christ the family of earth and the family of heaven are bound together. Christ glorified is our brother. Heaven is enshrined in humanity, and humanity is enfolded in the bosom of Infinite love." The Desire of Ages, 25.

Christ Spoke of Himself Being in Heaven While He was on Earth

In full demonstration that Christ was two separate, distinct, divested, INDEPENDENT persons from the Incarnation on, Christ spoke of Himself as being in heaven while he quite obviously was on earth, to wit: (Check any Red Letter Edition of the Bible to find that Jesus spoke the following words while He was on earth:

John 3:13 (King James Version) 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

If the above verse does not prove that Jesus was TWO DISTINCT PERSONS; that His Holy Spirit DIVINE LIFE was INDEPENDENT from His humanity (human life) that was at the time dwelling on earth, nothing would! This also proves that Christ’s humanity did not possess the OMNI’S, for His humanity cumbered those attributes. It is His Holy Spirit that is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. Those attributes were cumbered by the humanity of Christ, and that is why He had to divest His HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF, from the PERSONALITY (PERSON) of His humanity, so that both were INDEPENDENT PERSONS. Read the cumbered statement again if you have any problem with this.

No other explanation of the Godhead (other than what we teach) could explain how Jesus could be in heaven while on earth but the one explained herein, which is what the Lord showed to me in vision. All glory, honor and praise be to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who sacrificed His Holy Spirit soul of His life existence, in atonement for sin in the heavenly Sanctuary, that we might have that “highest good, crowning gift that heaven can bestow,” namely His eternal life Holy Spirit indwelling us for eternity, which is what gives us eternal life. This differed from Christ’s atonement upon the cross in that the heavenly Sanctuary Atonement provided a CURE for sin, while the earthy cross atonement provided REDEMPTION from sin by Christ taking upon HIS HUMAN NATURE our sins, and overcoming in His Human nature, proving that we can overcome in our human nature as did He, via the empowerment of His Holy Spirit. He relied on His Father’s Holy Spirit for His empowerment.

Without the CURE of the Holy Spirit, the sacrifice on the cross would have been to no avail but to pardon the continuum of sin forever. That is what Ellen White means in the following statement:

"Christ declared that after his ascension, he would send to his church, as his crowning gift, the Comforter, who was to take his place. This Comforter is the Holy Spirit,--the soul of his life, the efficacy of his church, the light and life of the world. With his Spirit Christ sends a reconciling influence and a power that takes away sin.

In the gift of the Spirit [HIS LIFE--THE SOUL OF HIS LIFE], Jesus gave to man the highest good that heaven could bestow....

The Spirit was given as a regenerating agency, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of NO AVAIL....

It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given his Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress his own character upon the church." E.G. White, Review and Herald Articles, May 19, 1904, vol. 5, p. 42.

 

Two sacrifices:

 

 "The darkness rolled away from the Saviour and from the Cross. Christ bowed His head and died. In His Incarnation He had reached the prescribed limit as a sacrifice, but not as a redeemer." E.G. White Manuscript Releases Volume Twelve, p. 409.

 

In His Incarnation, he reached the prescribed limit as a sacrifice, namely DEATH OF THE TESTATOR. That is the only prescribed limit of the Everlasting Covenant. But that act DID NOT fulfill Christ’s role as THE REDEEMER. We were redeemed (PARDONED) from sin by Him being the sacrificial lamb, taking out sins upon Himself, and all the while overcoming all and any temptation associated with those sins. His victory in overcoming sin, AS WE MAY BY THE EMPOWERMENT OF HIS HOLY SPIRIT, provided REDEMPTION from sin. But that is different from the prescribed limit of the Testator’s Covenant which provided a CURE for sin, and power to regenerate us back into the image of God.

 

In the Sanctuary Service, the sinner was  absolved of his/her sin by the spilled blood of a sacrificial Lamb. The Lamb had to be perfect. Christ had to overcome sin with all our sins placed upon Him. He achieved being the perfect Lamb by His overcoming of all sin and never sinning. That victory unto the test of death, made Him our REDEEMER. In His humanity He thus proved that man need not have sinned. So the victory of Christ proved Satan wrong in contesting that man could never have obeyed God’s law. Christ’s death and blood of His humanity fulfilled that sacrifice. But that was not the only sacrifice involved. Nor did that sacrifice provide a cure for sin, because due to man’s degradation state due to four thousand years of the effects of sin, we are told that it is impossible for us to keep the Law without the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, and therein lies the other involved sacrifice that provided the gift of the soul of the life of Christ, HIS HOLY SPIRIT DIVINE NATURE, proffered to man as an indwelling empowerment to overcome the lusts of the world. 

 

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

 

The sacrifice of the soul of the life of Christ, His Holy Spirit COMFORTER, was a sacrificial proviso of the Incarnation, not the cross. The cross sacrifice would have been to no avail without the Incarnation sacrifice, but to pardon on-going sin forever. So one should appreciate the fact that the sacrifices of Christ go far deeper than what is commonly believed by mainstream Christianity.

 

"The Incarnation of Christ was an act of self-sacrifice; His life was one of continual self-denial. The highest glory of the love of God to man was manifested in the sacrifice of His only-begotten Son, who was the express image of His person. This is the great mystery of godliness. It is the privilege and the duty of every professed follower of Christ to have the mind of Christ. Without self-denial and cross bearing we cannot be His disciples." E.G. White, Selected Messages, Book 2, p. 185.

 

The INCARNATION, in and of itself is heaven’s “highest good, crowning gift.” That sacrifice provided the CURE for sin via the indwelling Holy Spirit life of Christ, who is the ONLY PERSON that can empower us in overcoming sin.

—rwb