LeRoux, Zwicke and Storm, Saying Jerusalem in Ezekiel 9 Applies ONLY to the World at the End-time!
Dear Reader,
Below is a response to me on an Adventist Internet e-group, concerning my stance that Jerusalem represents the destruction of the SDA church first, and then symbolizes the Destruction of the World at the end-time. Gary Zwicke immediately chimed in and backed John LeRoux, as did Storm, by agreeing that my message was PROVEN false by my stand on Jerusalem also symbolizing the church at the end-time. My response will appear following Le Roux's diatribe against me.
I can assure you that you will have to "meet" this error in your own experience of relating the truth to others, so take heed and learn from my experience.
Ron Beaulieu
----- Original Message -----
From: John Le Roux
To: SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [SDAIssues] Fw: Jerusalem Versus Babylon
Ron, you twist and stretch Scripture and Spirit of Prophesy to suit your beloved "Call out of SDA Church Message". As I have told you before, if you see God's people as Babylon you will call them out, if you see them as Laodicea your message would be to repent! Please read carefully the below quotations from EGW. Jesus prayer was that we remain in the world, but not of the world. You see the world spoken of in the quotes below as the church and are therefore calling God's people out of the world in contradiction to His clear wish in John 17. Christ saw in Jerusalem a symbol of the world hardened in unbelief and rebellion. Not the church-the world! Nowere does the quotes below talk about Jerusalem as the SDA Church! You are - "The blind leading the blind...."
Beware of this message and this messanger!
John
G- 628
-TEXT-
Christ's words had been spoken in the hearing of a large number of
people; but when He was alone, Peter, John, James, and Andrew came
to Him as He sat upon the Mount of Olives. "Tell us," they said, "when
shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and
of the end of the world?" Jesus did not answer His disciples by taking
up separately the destruction of Jerusalem and the great day of His
coming. He mingled the description of these two events. Had He
opened to His disciples future events as He beheld them, they would
have been unable to endure the sight. In mercy to them He blended
the description of the two great crises, leaving the disciples to study out
the meaning for themselves. When He referred to the destruction of
Jerusalem, His prophetic words reached beyond that event to the final
conflagration in that day when the Lord shall rise out of His place to
punish the world for their iniquity, when the earth shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. This entire discourse was given, not for the disciples only, but for those who should live in the
last scenes of this earth's history.
-PG- 22
-TEXT-
Christ saw in Jerusalem a symbol of the world hardened
in unbelief and rebellion, and hastening on to meet the
retributive judgments of God. The woes of a fallen race,
pressing upon His soul, forced from His lips that exceeding
bitter cry. He saw the record of sin traced in human misery,
tears, and blood; His heart was moved with infinite pity for
the afflicted and suffering ones of earth; He yearned to relieve
them all. But even His hand might not turn back the tide
of human woe; few would seek their only Source of help.
He was willing to pour out His soul unto death, to bring
salvation within their reach; but few would come to Him
that they might have life.
-PG- 36
-TEXT-
The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of
judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of
which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the
fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world
that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law.
Dark are the records of human misery that earth has
witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens,
and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have
been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a
scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future.
The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults,
37
conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with
confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--
what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when
the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn
from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst
of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then
behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule.
Ron Beaulieu's response:
John, Kindly permit me to kindly point out how it is you who either misunderstands or twists Scriptue and the Spirit of Prophecy. I will ask a few kind questions and please kindly answer them.
* According to Scripture, where does the end-time Judgment begin? * In Ezekiel 5:9-17, who is made a reproach to the nations, the world?
* Where does Ellen White say that Judgment begins. Hint: Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 211.
* Is the world "His Sanctuary," "the House of Jacob?" * Does Ellen White include the church with the world--as the "field," in the following quote: * "The field,' Christ said, 'is the world.' But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world." Christ's Object Lessons, p. 70.
* In Ezekiel 5:1-3, where are those who are bound in His skirts preserved?
* In Ezekiel 5:5, what it the "Jerusalem" set in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her? Is this the "world" or the church, Jerusalem?
Thank you for any prayerful and true answers you might provide to these questions. And to you Gary, you show once again that you cannot think for yourself.
Ron
Another response by Ron:
ohn, Gary and Storm (alias Gary?) If you do not feel cornered, please respond to my questions asked in rebuttal to your serious charges that your position that Jerusalem applies ONLY to the world, is proof that my message is wrong. Do you three have no integrity whatsoever? I would truly feel cornered if I took the silence stance you are taking. I asked the question in a kind manner. You have no excuse not to respond except that you might embarass yourselves because you have no good answer. In that event, you should swallow your pride and agree that you are wrong.
Gary, you gave that statement about pride, and evidence piled upon evidence over and over, yet I provide evidence that you are wrong and you are too proud to respond.
Date: June 15, 2005 Do I sense a state of true despotism in that you have not answered any of my questions all afternoon? I will continue to ask these questions until I get an answer. Honest and valid questions deserve a valid and honest response. Matthew 24 is just another take on Ezekiel 5 and 9. Ellen White reapplies the entire chapter to the end-time in Desire of Ages, 628. It deals with the destruction of Jerusalem as well as the world. Verses 1 and 2 deal with the destruction of the Temple at the end-time. Sure it occurred at other times in history, but it occurs again in the context of verse 21, the worst time of trouble in history. If you want to interpret Jerusalem as the world:
* What do verses 1 and 2 mean?
* What is the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place, v. 15.
* Where is the Holy Place supposed to be? * Is the world Holy?
* If the world is Jerusalem, and we are to flee from Jerusalem to the mountains when the Abomination of Desolation Stands in the Holy Place, where do we go, to some other planet?
*Read Ezekiel 9:6. Notice the words: "...begin at my Sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."
Questions:
* Is the world God's Sanctuary?
* Is the House of Jacob the world in the following statement by Ellen White:
* Is the world "the church"
* If Ezekiel 9 destruction applies only to the world at the end-time, what do the words ".....the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God," mean in the following statement. Who is second if the world is Jerusalem?! Some other planet?!
Begin at My Sanctuary -- "Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus 'Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together." E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211.
"Study the 9th chapter of Ezekiel. These words will be literally fulfilled; yet the time is passing, and the people are asleep. They refuse to humble their souls and to be converted. Not a great while longer will the Lord bear with the people who have such great and important truths revealed to them, but who refuse to bring these truths into their individual experience. The time is short. God is calling; will YOU hear? Will YOU receive His message? Will YOU be converted before it is too late? Soon, very soon, every case will be decided for eternity. Letter 106, 1909, pp. 2, 3, 5, 7. (To "The churches in Oakland and Berkeley, September 26, 1909.)" E. G. White Manuscript Releases Volume One, p. 260.
Ron
Another appeal by Ron B.
John, Gary and Storm, Kindly permit me to kindly point out how it is you who either misunderstands or twists Scriptue and the Spirit of Prophecy. I will ask a few kind questions and please kindly answer them.
* According to Scripture, where does the end-time Judgment begin?
* In Ezekiel 5:9-17, who is made a reproach to the nations, the world?
* Where does Ellen White say that Judgment begins. Hint: Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 211.
* Is the world "His Sanctuary," "the House of Jacob?"
* Does Ellen White include the church with the world--as the "field," in the following quote: * "The field,' Christ said,, 'is the world.' But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world." Christ's Object Lessons, p. 70.
* In Ezekiel 5:1-3, where are those who are bound in His skirts preserved?
* In Ezekiel 5:5, what it the "Jerusalem" set in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her? Is this the "world" or the church, Jerusalem?
Thank you for any prayerful and true answers you might provide to these questions. And to you Gary, you show once again that you cannot think for yourself.
Ron
All three of the individuals involved, John, Gary and Storm, refused repeated appeals for them to answer my questions, and I think the reason is obvious. They were totally wrong and are too proud to admit it. It is this kind of pride that goes before destruction, and they will be destroyed for not admitting such lying errors due to foolish pride. They made a public charge and they must make the correction as broad as their error. Ellen White says this.
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