Neil Livingston Responds to Questions on Unity in Diversity
September 3, 2002
Dear Shane and Terresa:
My vision is very poor and Bob De La Torre was so kind as to send a computer disk copy of your letter. I really do appreciate when my brothers and sisters in the faith send me letters of questions and comments on my articles and book, The Greatest Conspiracy.
I think the best way for me to answer your questions and comments is to repeat your letter here and add my comments. I sincerely hope and pray that I do not write anything that would offend your obvious intelligent questions and comments. My reply will be in [ ].
Dear Bob,
I am writing discreetly. After some reflection and prayer I found that we should drop a line.
In most, if not all cases, the articles/sermons pick up on the separation/harvest movement. It would seem that one article by Brother Neil Livingston (Unity in Diversity) though written for the love of souls, has at times strayed and could leave a reader a bit confused.
There are 5 fundamental Pillars not three as stated; but if we maintain 3 as suggested and emphasized and try to develop unity with brethren (those in the church and elsewhere) on these 3 alone, (it leaves off the Sanctuary and the Three Angel's messages) but more importantly, that those brethren in the Church who believe in the same, would want to know what all the fuss is about and often can't see the reason to leave the church. The trouble with this approach is this -- you might find yourself back in the church!
[The Question of the 3 Fundamental Pillars]
[These 3 fundamental pillars referred to in the article, Diversity in Unity, is the opinion of Ellen White. She stated as follows:
The passing of the time in 1844 was a period of great events, opening to our astonished eyes the cleansing of the sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God's people upon the earth, [also] the first and second angels' messages and the third, unfurling the banner on which was inscribed, "The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" [KJV]. [1] One of the landmarks under this message was the temple of God, seen by His truth-loving people in heaven, and the ark containing the law of God. [2] The light of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment flashed its strong rays in the pathway of the transgressors of God's law. [3] The nonimmortality of the wicked is an old landmark. I can call to mind nothing more that can come under the head of the old landmarks. All this cry about changing the old landmarks [1888-1900, etc.] is all imaginary. Ellen G. White, Manuscript , 1889; "The Landmarks Defined," Counsels to Writers and Editors, pages 30, 31. (emphasis supplied).
[Notice that Ellen White states, "I can call to mind nothing more that can come under the head of the old landmarks." Further, she states, "All this cry about changing the old landmarks is all imaginary." This, of course, was the situation in 1888 when this testimony was written.]
[In regard to your true heart-felt concern that the idea of only 3 landmarks of historic Adventism ("it leaves off the Sanctuary and the Three Angel's messages")
[Ellen White states above that the very first landmark is "the cleansing of the sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God's people upon the earth." Of course, I believe that God's people are the Church, not the denomination. Also it is stated that, "One of the landmarks under this [sanctuary] message was the temple of God, seen by His truth-loving people in heaven, and the ark containing the law of God." Again, I believe that "His truth-loving people" are His Church, not the denomination. Not only that, but the statement above, on the Heavenly Sanctuary question states, "The light of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment flashed its strong rays in the pathway of the transgressors of God's law," was, and is still today, a vital part of the Sanctuary message. Of course, the Sabbath truth is a vital part of both the second and third angel's messages.]
[In regard to your true heart-felt concern that the idea of only 3 landmarks of historic Adventism ("it leaves off . . .the Three Angel's messages").
[Notice that immediately after stating, "The passing of the time in 1844 was a period of great events, opening to our astonished eyes the cleansing of the sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God's people upon the earth," Ellen White then states, in the very same sentence, that their eyes were opened to "the first and second angels' messages and the third, unfurling the banner on which was inscribed, 'The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.'"]
[These three pillars (or old landmarks) of historic Adventism cannot exist without the three angel's messages. Indeed, the first landmark, "One of the landmarks under this message" what message? The three angel's messages, "was the temple of God, seen by His truth-loving people in heaven, and the ark containing the law of God." This first pillar or landmark of historic Adventism, given by the three angel's of Rev. 14, also included, "the light of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment flashed its strong rays in the pathway of the transgressors of God's law." This seventh day Sabbath message is the foundation of the second and third angel's messages. The third angel's message is a warning against the mark of the beast, the breaking of God's holy law in the keeping of Sunday and the rejection of the forth commandment.]
[The third pillar or landmark of historic Adventist Ellen White, "The nonimmortality of the wicked is an old landmark." After reciting these three landmarks of Adventism inspiration concludes, "I can call to mind nothing more that can come under the head of the old landmarks." If inspiration can call to mind no other landmarks, why should I try to find other landmarks?
That which the Holy Spirit testified to as truth after the passing of the time, in our great disappointment, is the solid foundation of truth. The pillars of truth were revealed, and we accepted the foundation principles that have made us what we are--Seventh-day Adventists, keeping the commandments of God and having the faith of [not IN, but OF] Jesus." (The Upward Look, page 352, emphasis supplied).
[Addressing your other two-part observations]
[Part one of your observation: "....more importantly, that those brethren in the Church who believe in the same, would want to know what all the fuss is about and often can't see the reason to leave the church."]
[In reply to this most intelligent observation, I would say that the leadership of the contemporary corporate Seventh-day Adventist denominational Church no longer adhere to these three pillars/landmarks of historic Adventism as stated by Ellen White above. This has been a fact since the Evangelical Conferences of 1955-56. No one believes this fact more strongly than do I. (Please carefully consider my 570 page manuscript, The Greatest Conspiracy, "Satan's Warfare Against the Three Angel's Messages In the Twentieth Century" (at www.adventist4truth.com).]
[There are many in the corporate SDA Church who are perplexed and are wondering about the fruitage of apostasy they see around them in the corporate Church. Many are unaware of apostasy teaching in the SDA Church because they do not study. The Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy warn that we could be led astray if we do not continually study, not only the Scriptures, but also the truth "in our past history." (Life Sketches, page 196). The problem for us concerning our brethren and sisters in the corporate SDA Church is that we must make them aware of Seventh-day Adventist Church apostasy in the past fifty years so that they can make their own decisions as to leaving the corporate Church. Hence the purpose of my manuscript.]
[Part two of your observation: "The trouble with this approach is this -- you might find yourself back in the church!"]
[As to this observation, I pray to the Lord that I will not be deceived into going back to an apostate system -- that I may remain faithful and always be considered by Heaven as one of the remnant, who truly "keep the commandments of God, and [have] the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12.]
[Your letter then continues:]
Some of the 10 peripheral 'divisive" side issues come to mind.
Side issue 1)
There are 'brethren' leading out in separated ministries that do not call the Church Babylon (Standish etc) Can one support such a ministry which is leaving 'brethren' ripe for corporate destruction? The quote used is saying the SDA Church is not Babylon; time and place would have us hindering unity?
[Part one of your observation, "There are 'brethren' leading out in separated ministries that do not call the Church Babylon. The quote used is saying the SDA Church is not Babylon; time and place would have us hindering unity?"]
[Time and Place]
[We, who now live at the end of time, must be very careful how we fall back on the "time and place" theory. It seems to me that some use this "time and place" statement to justify their belief in the opposite of what the testimonies states. In the quote about calling the SDA Church "Babylon," Ellen White was pointing out that this is not, or ever will be, our work. It is the work of the evil one. She wrote four (4) consecutive testimony articles in the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald titled, "The Remnant Church Not Babylon." In these articles she pointed out that there had been many who had arisen from time to time with this same message, "the SDA Church is Babylon, come out of her." She also warned that there would be many in the future would arise with the same false message. These articles appeared in the following issues of the Review and Herald dated: (First Article, 8/22/93; "Continued,"R&H, 8/29/93; "Continued," 9/05/93; "Concluded," R&H, 9/12/93). It would be wise to carefully study those four articles in their complete context. Again, Ellen White stated that this was not our work. I honestly believe that many independent ministries do not really know what our work is.]
The proclamation of the third angel's message is our work. We are to present the truth in regard to the Sabbath of the Lord. God's memorial of creation has been torn down, and in its place there stands a false sabbath. Satan has led men to declare that this is the true Sabbath, and in the belief of this delusion millions are passing into eternity. And the people to whom God has given his truth are hiding their light under a bushel, allowing the cares of this world to engross the time and attention that should be given to the Lord's work. "A Call to Service," Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, August 5, 1902.
[Notice that the "The proclamation of the third angel's message is our work." Nothing else should sidetrack us into side issues. There are millions around us, wherever we are in the world, who have never heard this precious truth. As I stated above, we should make our brethren of the corporate SDA Church aware of the apostasy, and let the Lord call them out. That is His work. Again, "The proclamation of the third angel's message is our work."]
[Seventh-day Adventist To Be Judged]
[While it is true that the Seventh-day Adventist Church will be judged, that judgement is not left to us: "In the balances of the sanctuary the Seventh-day Adventist church is to be weighed. She will be judged by the privileges and advantages that she has had. . .. By the light bestowed, the opportunities given, will she be judged." (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 8, page 247, April 21, 1903). Jesus, our faithful High Priest, will judge the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the Heavenly Sanctuary. The Lord will call out whom He will. Never fear, the angel of Revelation 18, the latter rain, will call all of God's people out of Babylon (including an apostate SDA Church, which I believe to be "a sister to fallen Babylon" Manuscript Releases Vol. 21, page 380) into the remnant.]
[Part two of your observation, "Can one support such a ministry which is leaving 'brethren' ripe for corporate destruction?"]
[I have spoken with brother Colen Standish about the apostate SDA Church around 17 years ago. At that time brother Standish agreed that there was apostasy IN the SDA Church, but that the SDA Church would some how reform. (Joe Crews, Stanley Harris, and many, many other old evangelists who have worked so faithfully for the message, hoped and prayed that the SDA Church would reform, and spent their remaining years working toward that end, obviously, without success). I stated my belief that the Church was IN apostasy, that the belief that there was apostasy IN the Church, but that the Church was not IN apostasy, was a Roman Catholic belief. Roman Catholics believe that, although there are some in the Roman Church that are untrue and unfaithful, nevertheless the Roman Church is of God. I reminded brother Standish that no organization or Church ever reformed once traveling down the road to apostasy. Evidently he still holds the view and the hope that the Church will reform. Time will prove him wrong I believe. I still consider Colen Standish, and those who believe like him, my Seventh-day Adventist brother because, unlike the leaders of the corporate SDA Church, brother Standish believes in "the commandments of God, and the faith OF Jesus." "Ye shall know them by their fruits." Matt. 7:16.]
[Your letter continues]
Side Issue 2)
Obviously in the denominational church there are individuals (brethren) who are not lost; but who will heed the separation of the Third Angel (EW 118); however, they would be lost had they remain in there. They would be God's people if they "came out of her"? The wording of Side Issue no 2) is fraught with danger. For example ... "All Adventists who believe in the above 3 pillars ... are true brethren and must be included as part of God's true remnant" This makes the principle of the "shaking" redundant. Why separate from the church; they believe in the (3) pillars mentioned by Brother Livingston.
[I do believe that brethren in the SDA Church who are true and honest will separate from those who are not. But how can they separate from the "Church" when they know nothing about the apostasy because we have been silent on the subject for the past fifty years? I do believe that the corporate SDA Church denomination will go with the powers that be, and that any who go with her in that case will be lost. All who accept the mark of the beast will be lost. I believe that "All Adventists who believe in the above 3 pillars ... are true brethren and must be included as part of God's true remnant," and when they become aware of the apostasy, it they are "true and honest," they will separate themselves from those who do not march under the banner of "the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Many in the corporate SDA Church (especially those in leadership positions, claim that they do march under this banner, but it is not true. Again, those who are true and honest, and march under this banner of the remnant, will separate from those who do not. Now, if they do not separate as quickly as you and I think they should, does this mean they are lost? Has the mark of the beast already been enforced? Has God's probation for those that are honest and true in the SDA Church passed already? There was a thirty-five year period of probation for the Jews after Jesus declared the probation for the Church had ended. The probation for the people of God is left with God, not with us.]
[A prime example of separation today. Two years ago a man and his wife (who worked for Andrews University with the University's aircraft/airport) read my manuscript, The Greatest Conspiracy, on Bob De La Torre's web page. They made their decision to leave the employment of Andrews and to go into independent work. They e-mailed some of the chapters of the manuscript to leaders at Andrews University. Of course, I don't have to tell you what happened to their standing and relationship with the SDA Church at Andrews University.]
[I believe many others will do the same when they become aware of the apostasy. At the same time, I believe that our work is to present the third angel's message (as stated by inspiration above) to those who are in darkness. As I stated in my paper, Unity in Diversity, there are over one half million people in my area. Upper Columbia Conference headquarters is located here, and, of course, they do not present the third angel's message. They present, once a year, a "One Night In Your Life" musical entertainment program, inviting the people to "love Jesus" and come to the SDA Church. Yet not one independent ministry is working in this area. So many independent Adventists are smug and actually believe that everyone in the SDA Church knows what they know about the apostasy in the Church and refuse to separate from the SDA Church. After observing my manuscript many independent Adventist's response is, "Oh, I've heard all that before." But this is just not true. The manuscript reveals many things I did not know myself until I did the thirty-year research. My prayer is that many in the SDA Church will read my manuscript and separate themselves from the apostasy. My hope is that someone with the means will publish the manuscript so that it will reach many, but I leave this with the Master of the vineyard. In the meantime, souls are dying in my area and in your area who have never heard of the three angel's messages -- the sanctuary truth, the call to come out of Babylon (false religious teaching), and the warning against the false sabbath, which will be the mark of the beast, that we should accept the true Sabbath, which is the seal of God.]
[By the way, I do honestly believe that the corporate SDA Church denomination will give up the true Sabbath when men cannot buy or sell, can no longer pay tithe to the system. SDA leadership demonstrated this policy when they merged with the Roman Catholic hospital system in Colorado. Their reason -- "We would have gone under if we had not joined with the Catholics," General Conference President, Robert Folkenberg stated in a question and answer period after his sermon at Union College, Nebraska. (See, Chapter 18, "The Invaders," The Greatest Conspiracy, page 402, for documentation.]
[Your letter continues]
Br Livingston then asks - "Who is right on this issue of denominational reform? Time will tell. Perhaps when we are all together in the great time of trouble ..." Speculation on future events are side issues"
Brother, is not this the same language as your lead article from the Jewish Week - " Rabbi Greenberg suggested the dispute be tabled until the Messiah arrives. When the Messiah comes, Jews and Christians "can ask him if this is his first coming or his second," finally putting the issue to rest."
Then why separate, and state the Church is in apostasy? To wait until the "great time of trouble" to find this out, mutes the force of the Third Angel and his call or is there no need for a call? Let alone the reception of the latter rain and of the sealing prior to? Do we believe in "present truth" or just have one foot on both sides of the fence, in order to play it safe, just in case the other side is right?
[I refer to the apostle Paul on the premise that I know all the answers about God's plan for the denominated SDA Church: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."( I Corinthians 13:12). I do believe that brother Standish and others will come to the belief that the SDA denomination will never repent and reform. As for me, I am not a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, nor do I plan or ever wish to be a member again. My salvation does not depend upon what I believe about the fate of the corporate Seventh-day Adventist Church. Perhaps they will wake up. I sincerely doubt it.]
[On this issue of the SDA Church and separating from it. I beg of you, dear brother and sister Shane and Terresa, to read carefully my manuscript, The Greatest Conspiracy, "Satan's Warfare Against the Three Angel's Messages in the Twentieth Century." (Notice that the sub-title is not "Satan's Warfare Against the SDA Church"). You will see that the final chapters in the manuscript point out the triumph of the message, not the triumph of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I sincerely only believe in the triumph of the third angel's message.]
[Your letter continues]
Side Issue # 3
Trusting the Writings is one thing, but making the Bible and the Bible alone the standard of truth and doctrine is another. You can prove many things from the writings as the quote under Side Issue #1 states!
[On the issue of calling the Seventh-day Adventist Church "Babylon." I sincerely believe that the SDA Church is much, much worse than Babylon. Why? Because SDA leadership know what the truth is, but hide it under a bushel and suppress the truth whenever and wherever it arises. (Please read the manuscript.)]
[Your letter continues]
Side Issue # 4-10
Any issue which is not truth is a deviation from truth. It is not side issue. Do we accept error or unify under error as mentioned - "unity in diversity"? Unity is only based on truth. There is one truth, and only one sanctifying truth. The side issues illustrate one thing - that apart from the 'shaking", we really need to be aware of one important principle that there is a "sifting" of the chaff from the wheat.
[I agree totally with your above statements. Truth is truth and error is error. However, I thought the question was whether there are 3 pillars/landmarks of historic Adventism, or are there 5 as you state?]
[Your letter continues]
This does not call for "unity in diversity" because the chaff will not necessarily disbelieve the 3 pillars. They will however reject present truth and advancing light. After the truth has been proclaimed as a witness to all nations, every conceivable power of evil - attempt to tear down the pillars of our faith" The tearing down is far too evident.
Our Brother suggests we "Avoid dissension" Did Jesus avoid dissension with the devil? or Mt 10:23?
[The latter rain will not come unless we have unity in the truth. (See Acts, chapter 2, and the four Review articles by Ellen White on "The Remnant Church Not Babylon). I should state here that I most definitely do not believe that the corporate SDA denominational Church is the "remnant Church." Only those who march under the flag of "the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" qualify as the "remnant." As for unity, In the upper room there were gathered God's people who "were of one accord." As long as there is division among brethren who hold the same pillars/landmarks, but are divided because of jealousy, and bickering over side-issues, the Lord will withhold his Holy Spirit in latter rain power.]
[Your letter continues]
We are not looking to renounce a ministry - but we should warn if they are advocating error.
[What is error? Is it giving up the landmarks or pillars? Or is error not agreeing with us on whether the denomination will repent or not? The last, in my opinion, is a side issue. Does that make me a heretic? Will I not be saved because I believe others have a right to an opinion on this point that does not agree with mine?]
[Your letter continues]
Unity in truth is to be highly desired - whereas unity in diversity of part truths under the 3 pillars is another thing. Today if you letterbox a large area of a city - watch the response rate (less than 2%) of the handbills sent out. I know of a city where 29,000 leaflets were handed, and 57 responded. To mail out Great Controversies would not be that effective. We need to hear of the agape of Christ and His righteousness; this alone, wins souls. I commend Brother Livingston for addressing a difficult topic of much concern and heartbreak; this is commendable, but truth has a funny way of making a path quite narrow and as Jesus said - "few be that find it"
[The point of my article, Unity in Diversity, was not diversity in truth, but diversity in our different ministries. I now see that some have gotten the wrong idea from my article. I would never advocate unity in diversity of doctrinal truth. Again, I repeat, we have different ministries. Some emphasize a health ministry, some a Great Controversy ministry, others a Desire of Ages ministry. We are not to be jealous of others success. If we all march under the banner of "the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus," we are to work together in the truth, but in different areas of that truth and in different areas of the Lord's vineyard. The Lord has many workers in His vineyard. I am speaking of the remnant, the independent workers. I am not speaking of denominational Conference workers who no longer present the three angel's messages. There must be unity between independent ministries. Independent, not so much between ministries, but independent of the apostate SDA denomination. I pray that I have made my position clear.]
[Your letter continues]
Finally, PK.141.003 Those ministers who are men pleasers, who cry, Peace, peace, when God has not spoken peace, might well humble their hearts before God, asking pardon for their insincerity and their lack of moral courage. It is not from love for their neighbor that they smooth down the message entrusted to them, but because they are self-indulgent and ease-loving. True love seeks first the honor of God and the salvation of souls. Those who have this love will not evade the truth to save themselves from the unpleasant results of plain speaking. When souls are in peril, God's ministers will not consider self, but will speak the word given them to speak, refusing to excuse or palliate evil. in sincerity, Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. 3John.1.2.
[I agree totally with this statement. I do not consider myself as one who cries "Peace and safety." (Again, please read the manuscript, The Greatest Conspiracy.]
In the Blessed Hope,
Shane and Terresa, RSD 1618 Rutherglen, 3685 Vic. Australia