A
Rebuttal to Ulicia Unruh and Bryan Bissell on Ezekiel 9
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Dear Reader, Ulicia Unruh and Bryan Bissell are trying to
convince folk on SDA Internet forums that Ellen White never said that the
church could be any part of Babylon. That is most unfortunate, for it makes
Ellen White a self-contradictory false prophet if they are right, because I
will produce the statements wherein Ellen White indeed said that the church
could become a part of Babylon. Bryan said: -----
Original Message ----- From:
Mr Bryan
Bissell Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [SDAIssues] 1893/1956 Sunray, PLEASE,
PLEASE DO NOT KEEP ON STATING THIS. IT'S WHOLLY FALSE. You seem
very sincere and honest in almost everything. But this one area, you
keep on stating things that are most blatantly false. I've sent several
times lists of quotes ranging from the 1880s to the 1910s saying that the SDA
church will never be Babylon. In fact, most of the quotes saying that
SDA could be Babylon are from the 1880s..and a couple from Kellogg's apostasy
time. Study the truth and facts and don't keep on saying things that
are blatantly untrue. I believe you're not intending to do this, but
every time you say those quotes are only from 1893, it's a complete untruth.
Be careful not to deal in untruths. Bryan Ulicia
Unruh said: -----
Original Message ----- From:
Ulicia Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:50 PM Subject: [SDAIssues] Re: 1893/1956 Robert Sessler at lightministries
keeps these people well supplied with his twisted, out of context, quoting
and piecing together of bits and pieces from Ellen White to sustain
anti-Adventism. It is a classic example of the very
thing EGW dreaded that people would do (cut and piece her writings to make
them say anything they want with utter disregard to what she was actually
saying) No where in all her writings does
she say the fourth angel is announcing a call out of the Seventh-day
Adventist church -- NO WHERE. Yet by cutting and pasting bits and
pieces they try to make her say that.
"To claim that the Seventh-day
Adventist Church is Babylon, is to make the same claim as does Satan,
who is an accuser of the brethren, who accuses them before God night and day.
By this misusing of the Testimonies, souls are placed in perplexity, because
they cannot understand the relation of the "My brother, I learn that you
are taking the position that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, and
that all that would be saved must come out of her. You are not the only man the
devil has deceived in this matter. {TM 58.4}
Ron’s Commentary: Ulicia, I will tell you
how much stronger I want it. I want a statement wherein Ellen White says that
the church would NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, become a part of Babylon! That
is what I want. And when you produce that statement, I will forsake any
belief in Ellen White, because she made a number of statements saying that
the church could become a part of Babylon and I am including those statements
in this rebuttal. Also, I want strong evidence that a
prefigure DOES NOT have a literal counterpart at the end-time! End Ron’s
comment. The message is clear --
Ron’s Commentary: Notice the date,
October 3, 1893. Notice the tense—“Never had.” That is past tense. This is
used to mean that Ellen White never said that the church could or would
become any part of Babylon. That is a false teaching. End Ron’s comment.
"Those who have proclaimed the
Seventh-day Adventist Church as Babylon, have made use of the Testimonies in
giving their position a seeming support; but why is it that they did not
present that which for years has been the burden of my message--the unity of
the church? Why did they not quote the words of the angel, "Press
together, press together, press together"? Why did they not repeat
the admonition and state the principle, that "in union there is
strength, in division there is weakness"? It is such messages as
these men have borne that divide the church, and put us to shame before the
enemies of truth; and in such messages is plainly revealed the specious
working of the great deceiver," TM 56 Ron’s Commentary: "To secure peace and unity they were ready
to make any concession consistent with fidelity to God but they felt that
even peace would be too dearly purchased at the sacrifice of principle. If
unity could be secured only by the compromise of truth and righteousness,
then let there be difference, and even war" (Great Controversy, p. 45).
Ron’s Commentary: Ellen White said that
God will take the work into His own hands and when He does that,
that is the ultimate organization. Jesus and the twelve had
organization. The fifty faithful out of 120,000-150,000 on October 23, 1844,
were organized under God. They were the church of Philadelphia. Philadelphia
was never formally organized. God will finish the work by His Holy Spirit: The following have no “formal”
organization: "A Firmament of Chosen Ones.--Among earth's inhabitants,
scattered in every land, there are those who have not bowed the knee to Ball.
Like the stars of heaven, which appear only at night, these FAITHFUL ONES
will shine forth when darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the
people. In heathen Africa, in the Catholic lands of Europe and of South
America, in China, in India, in the islands of the sea, and in all the dark
corners of the earth, God has in reserve a firmament of CHOSEN ONES that will
yet shine forth amidst the darkness, revealing clearly to an apostate world
the transforming power of obedience to His law. Even now they are appearing
IN EVERY NATION, AMONG EVERY TONGUE AND PEOPLE and in the hour of deepest
apostasy, when Satan's supreme effort is made to cause 'all, both small and
great, rich and poor, free and bond,' to receive, under penalty of death, the
sign of allegiance to a false rest day, these faithful ones, 'blameless and
harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke,' will 'shine as light in the
world.'" The darker the night, the more brilliantly will they
shine." E.G. White, Evangelism,707, and Prophets and Kings, pp. 188, 189. The
Ellen White Statements That Prove Ulicia and Bryan as Errant If I can produce one statement by Ellen White that says the church
could become Babylon, you are wrong in your interpretation of other
statements you use to say it will never happen! Here is more than one such
statement that the church could become part of Babylon: "The world must not be introduced into the church, and
married to the church, forming a bond of unity. Through this means the church
will become indeed corrupt, and as stated in Revelation, 'a cage of every
unclean and hateful bird.'" Testimonies to Ministers, p. 265. The church was married to the world in the early 1930's when a few
leaders adopted the world's Accreditation Standards for our educational
facilities. Satan could have no finer track to the youth of the church than
through the world's education curriculum. "If the church of God becomes LUKEWARM [LAODICEAN] it does not
stand in favor with God any more than do the churches that are represented as
having fallen and become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul
spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Those who have had
opportunities to hear and receive the truth, and who have united with the
Seventh-day Adventist church, calling themselves the commandment keeping
people of God, and yet possess no more vitality and consecration to God than
do the nominal churches, will receive of the plagues of God just as verily as
the churches who oppose the law of God." E.G. White, Letter 35,
1898. Did the church become Laodicean? Has the church remained Laodicean?
No! It has become both COLD APOSTATE AND LUKEWARM. The liberals are cold
apostate, and the conservatives are lukewarm. If Laodicea is not regarded with any more favor by God than the
fallen churches, and the call of Laodicea is to all churches, then there is
no difference between Laodicea and the fallen churches as far as being in a
fallen state is concerned. Different churches believe different aspects of
Babylonian teachings, but Ellen White equates them all as far as falling from
the favor of God is concerned, and as far as constituting the habitation of
devils and the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and
hateful bird. "We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel.
Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among
us in a large degree...We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen
Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted and filled with every
foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird, and will we be clear
unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? E. G. White,
Manuscript Releases No. 449, pp. 17, 18. (Letter 51, 1886 to Elder Butler) Testimonies
on Sexual Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce, p. 193. An Adventist Review article says that the church has the same divorce
rate per capita percentage ration as the world. Does that sound like the
unlawful intimacies have been curbed and the camp has been cleansed? "In the balances of the sanctuary the Seventh-day Adventist
church is to be weighed. She will be judged by the privileges and advantages
that she has had. . . .I saw our Instructor pointing to the garments of
so-called righteousness. Stripping them of, He laid bare he defilement
beneath. Then He said to me: 'Can you not see how they have pretentiously
covered up their defilement and rottenness of character? How is the faithful
city become an harlot?" E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 8, pp.
247-250. Can anyone tell me when the church reformed and revived from it's harlot stance? "The church cannot measure herself by
the world nor by the opinion of men nor by what she ONCE was. Her faith and
her position in the world as they NOW ARE must be COMPARED (JUDGED) with what
they would have been if her course had been continually onward and upward.
The church will be weighed in the balances of the sanctuary. If her moral
character and spiritual state do not correspond with the benefits and
blessings God has conferred upon her, SHE WILL BE FOUND WANTING." Testimonies, vol. 5, pp.
83, 84. "When this church is weighed in the balances of the sanctuary,
it is found wanting, having left its first love....What is the fatal
deficiency?--'Thou has left thy first love...' The light that gladdened your heart when you first understood the
message for this time is an essential element in your experience and labors,
and this has been lost out of your heart and life. Christ beholds your lack
of zeal, and declares that you have FALLEN, and are in a perilous
position." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, pp.
462-3. Questions for
Ulicia and Bryan · Was A.D. 27-70 a manifestation of Ezekiel 9? · Did that manifestation involve a literal apostate
church? · Did Ellen White say that manifestation was a
prefigure? Would that “prefigure” demand a literal antitypical fulfillment? · According
to Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 211,
where does the prefigure begin? · Relative to
the sealing of Ezekiel 9, circa A.D. 27-70, were there two Jerusalem church
headquarters prior to A.D. 66, when all true Christians fled to Pella? · Did one true Christian receive sealing in the
apostate Jewish church in Jerusalem? · Where were the disciples at the Pentecost sealing? Were
they at the Temple? · Does Isaiah 4:1-4, in reference to Jerusalem
and Zion, contradict Isaiah 37:31, 32? · Where was true Zion and “Jerusalem,” in A.D. 27-70? · According
to Ezekiel, the greater light, where are the tares (dross) gathered according
to Ezekiel 22:17-31? Where were they gathered in the prefigure of A.D. 27-70? · Does Ellen White liken the world and the church to a
field where the tares are burned? · Karl Wagner
says that Ezekiel 9 occurs in the general destruction? Ellen White says that
it begins at His Sanctuary, Testimonies,Vol.
5, 211. How can the church be a visible entity at the beginning of the
general destruction of Ezekiel 9, and at the same time obey the three angel’s
messages to not take the mark and not be able to buy and sell? · You seem
comforted that Ezekiel 9 does not begin until the general destruction. Why do
you find that comforting? Is that not a peace and safety allusion and
illusion? · Was Ezekiel
5 written more for us than for the Jews? · In Ezekiel
5, which is updated to end-time context by verse 9, cf. Matthew 24:21, the
church is paraded before the world as a taunt and an instruction (KJV). So
indeed, it will be around. But why? How? How can the church obey the three
angel’s messages and still be a visible entity at the beginning of the
general destruction of the world? Ulicia also wrote: -----
Original Message ----- From:
Ulicia Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:22 AM Subject: [SDAIssues] Re: SDA Partners in
Innovation Forum
And it's not the Shepherd Rod (and
those who seem to have adopted the Shepherd Rod) interpretation.
Notice the following: ******
The sealing process -- There is no message here that they
must first come out of the church before they can be sealed. Ron’s Commentary: Ezekiel 9 was written
long before any sealing of the Jews took place and a sealing was required
before the destruction of Jerusalem. Ulicia is saying that all true
Christians, circa A.D. 27-70, had to be sealed in the apostate church at
Jerusalem. Where is there any evidence for that? Show me one person
(true Christian) who was sealed at the
apostate Temple in Jerusalem. Remember, that there were two church
headquartered in Jerusalem—the church of Jesus and His disciples, and the
apostate church. End Ron’s comment. Notice the future application --
Jesus is about to leave the mercy seat -- the literal fulfillment of the
destruction of those without the seal happens AFTER PROBATION CLOSES. Ron’s Commentary: Of course the literal
destruction occurs after probation closes. But that does not mean that probation
for the church does not close before the close of general probation. Did the
probation for apostate Israel close before the general destruction at the
end-time? Did the probation for apostate Rome and her daughters (as fallen
organizations) close before the general destruction? Has the cry Babylon is
fallen been going on since 1844? Then EGW tells us more specifically
when it happens. Ron’s Commentary: When it happens is not so crucial as to why it happens and who is involved. Jeremiah
11:9-15 is proof that probation can close for a people in any given
generation. We are responsible for the apostasy in the church NOW. Ellen
White said that apostasy will wax stronger until Jesus comes. End comment.
In this passage the plagues have
already fallen, God has revealed Himself and spoken to deliver the
saints. The whole world now knows the truth that they have been
fighting against God Himself.
Ron’s Commentary: According to the
following evidence, will SDA pastors be prophesying smooth things? Begin at
My Sanctuary -- "Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was
the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to
whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the
spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken
the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation
of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen
their unbelief, and they say: The
Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit
His people in judgment. Thus 'Peace
and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up
their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the
house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the
ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little
children all perish together." E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211. End Ron’s
comments. There is no message here saying we
have to leave God's church before receiving the seal at all. Ron’s Commentary: Ezekiel 22:17-31 tells
where the tares (dross) are gathered for burning and melting. Ezekiel wrote for
the prefigure of A.D. 70. God and Ellen White say that he wrote more for us
than the Jews. If the church of Testimonies,
Vol. 5, 211, is so bad that men, maidens and little children all perish
together without mercy, and it will NEVER AGAIN show the House of Jacob its
sins, that is a call out message! That church will take the mark! That church
will continue after the Mark is enforced and will be around for literal destruction
after probation is closed! Who would be sealed in such a church? Who was
sealed in such a church in the prefigure experience of Israel. Isaiah also wrote more for us than for
the Jews, and he said it all in the following verses: Isa 37:31
And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take
root downward, and bear fruit upward: Isa 37:32
For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape
out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this . The above verses do not contradict Isaiah
4:1-4: Isa 4:1 And in that day seven women shall
take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own
apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the
LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth [shall be]
excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. Isa 4:3
And it shall come to pass, [that he that is] left in Zion, and [he that]
remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, [even] every one that is
written among the living in Jerusalem: Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away
the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of
Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit
of burning. Isaiah 4:1-4 and Isaiah 37:31, 32, do not
contradict. The interpretations of Adventists in general and Ulicia and Bryan
specifically, contradict the evidence of the greater light which does not
contradict the lesser light. Ezekiel 5:1-3, also agrees with Isaiah
(above). Ezekiel saw a small remnant saved before the remaining three-thirds
is destroyed. Statements that Ulicia and Bryan seem to
avoid are as follows: https://omega77.tripod.com/leavestate.htm Nothing could be safer to follow than the
“prefigure” of Ezekiel 9 as it was fulfilled in the experience of Israel. That
was a type of what is transpiring in the professing Seventh-day Adventist
church. That was a type of the outcome of the church. A faithful remnant will
escape as in the prefigure. Ron
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