Ron's Original Questions to Gene,
the SDA Church Elder
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Dear Reader,
----- Original Message ----- From: gardening@liveliberty.ws To: DefendEGW@yahoogroups.com Sent:
Sunday, December 23, 2007 9:00 PM Subject:
RE: Fw: [DefendEGW] Re: BOOKS OF A NEW ORDER Ron asked Gene: Do you believe that
Ellen and James White would invite high placed Catholics to speak
at the General Conference Sessions which are supposed to be the voice of
God to the world? Gene responded: NO Ron responds: The
SDA church has done so! Ron asked Gene: Do you believe James and Ellen White
would mail out over 450,000 Ministry magazines to non-SDA
pastors, stating that Jesus had the nature of Adam BEFORE the fall? Gene responded: I know what the
Whites say in the SOP about it. Ron responds: Ellen White says that
Christ took our sinful nature. It is serious apostasy to state anything else
to 450,000 non-SDA ministers--saying that Christ took the nature of Adam
BEFORE the fall. According to Scripture, that is anti-Christ. "He took upon Him our sinful
nature." Ellen White, RH, 12/15/96 Rom 8:3 For
what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending
his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in
the flesh: 1Jo 4:3 And
every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ
is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof
ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 2Jo 1:7 For
many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ
is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. The mainline
denominational churches, now including the apostate SDA church, teach that
Christ did not come in the sinful flesh, sinful nature of Adam. I believe the
above verses concerning coming in the flesh mean sinful flesh. Rom. 8:3. Ron asked Gene: Do you believe that James and Ellen
White would approve of the Central doctrine of the Catholic church, the
Trinity Doctrine? George Knight does not believe so. He said the pioneers
would not join the church that is called Seventh-day Adventist today. Gene responded: They didn't use the word
Trinity I believed they used Godhead and heavenly trio. Ron responds: Ellen White defined the
Holy Spirit as being the life and soul of Christ: "Christ declared that after his ascension,
he would send to his church, as his crowning gift, the Comforter, who was to
take his place. This Comforter is the Holy Spirit,--the soul of his
life, the efficacy of his church, the light and life of the world.
With his Spirit Christ sends a reconciling influence and a power that takes
away sin. In the gift of the Spirit [HIS
LIFE--THE SOUL OF HIS LIFE], Jesus gave to man the highest good that heaven
could bestow.... The Spirit was given as a regenerating
agency, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no
avail.... It is by the Spirit that the heart is
made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the
divine nature. Christ has given his Spirit as a divine power to overcome all
hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress his own
character upon the church." E.G. White, Review and Herald Articles, May 19, 1904, vol. 5, p. 42. Ron asked Gene: Did you realize that Ellen White
said that what the pioneers taught on the godhead, the personality of God
and Christ, are pillar doctrines of the church? Gene responded: OK so? Was any different
than she taught in the SOP? Ron responds: Adoption of the Trinity
Doctrine is totally different from Ellen White's definition of the Holy
Spirit, as being the life and soul of Christ. Ron asked Gene: Do you believe that Ellen White
would send SDA pastors to Gene responded: NO Ron responds: No Ellen White
said that the fallen churches cannot be distinguished from the world, EW, 273. “One sinner
may diffuse darkness which will exclude the light of God from the entire
congregation. When the people realize that darkness is settling upon them,
and they do not know the cause, then they should earnestly seek God in great
humility and self-abasement, until the wrongs which grieve God's Spirit are
searched out and put away from among them."{RH, September 23, 1873 par.
1} “Does anyone
suppose that the messages of warning will not come to those whom God
reproves? The ones reproved may rise up in indignation and seek to bring the
law to bear upon God's messenger, but in doing this, they are not bringing
the law upon the messenger, but upon Christ, who gave the reproof and the
warning. When men endanger the work and cause of God by their own
wrong course of action, shall they hear no voice of reproof? If the wrongdoer
only were concerned, and the work reached no farther than him, he alone should
have the words of warning; but when his course of action is doing positive
harm to the cause of truth, and souls are imperiled, God requires that the
warning be as broad as the injury done. The testimonies will not
be hindered. The words of rebuke and warning, the plain "Thus saith the
Lord," will come from God's appointed agencies; for the words do not
originate with the human instrument; they are from God, who appointed them
their work. If a suit is instituted in earthly tribunals, and God suffers it
to come to trial, it is that His own name may be glorified. But a woe will be
upon the man who gives himself to do this work. God reads the motives,
whatever they may be. I pray that the Lord will teach our brethren to be
straightforward, and make no compromise in the matter. The cause of
God has been bruised and wounded by any such men connecting with it, and the
sooner they are separated from it, the better. . . . {2SM 152.4} Ron asked Gene: Do you believe that Ellen
White would approve of hard-rock music being played in the youth meetings at
our Campmeetings? Along with
dancing, shouting and every uncouth thing? Gene responded: I've seen some of
it and NO she would not and neither do I. Ron responds: That is what
Ellen White prophesied would be brought into our campmeetings
JUST BEFORE THE CLOSE OF PROBATION. Do you believe that bodes well for the
church at such a serious time? I believe it constitutes gross apostasy. You
say you don't approve of it but you don't seem very concerned about it! Ron asked Gene: Would Ellen White approve
of two different gospels being taught in the SDA church when God says to let
anyone who comes with another gospel be accursed (anathema--doomed) Gene responded: Yeah well you can say what
you want it doesn't mean they will take it to heart. I ran across a teacher
that said right there in class that we wouldn't stop sinning before Jesus
comes. Ron responds: I know of a large portion
of the church which agrees with the false gospel that we will not stop
sinning before Jesus comes. But that is not the issue! Jesus said: Let him be
ACCURSED, even an angel, if one should come with any other gospel than truth.
Accursed means anathema--have nothing to do with such persons. You support
them with your tithe and offerings! Gene said: Do you realize that we are required to stop sinning before Jesus comes through His grace of course? I did object don't you know. I also teach the class so I will have a chance to educate that person. Ron responds: God did not instruct you
to try to educate such persons. Ellen White and the Bible has
"educated" them, but they have rejected what those sources say, so
why would they accept your "education?" God says to let them be
ACCURSED. Further, some SDA leaders teach the heresy that we cannot overcome
before Jesus comes in the Ron asked Gene: Do you believe Ellen White would
instruct SDA's in Gene responded: NO that is not right and
is only avoiding the inevitable. What about Daniel
and his friends? Ron responds: Of course it is not right! But it goes beyond that! Such a
coarse is violation of
Isaiah 8:20, and the entire church is
responsible for such apostasy.
1Cr 6:16 What? know ye not that he
which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two,
saith he, shall be one flesh. "The plain straight testimony must
live in the church, or the curse of God will rest upon His
people as surely as it did upon ancient
Corporate responsibility: "For
evils that we might have checked, we are just as responsible as if we were guilty." Desire of Ages, p. 44. "We are just as responsible for
evils that we might have checked in others by exercise of parental or
pastoral authority as if the acts had been our own." Patriarchs Prophets, 578.2. How might we CHECK such evil?
Corporate responsibility: "Even
though you may not be able to speak a word to those who are working on wrong
principles, leave them. Your
withdrawal and silence may do more than words. Nehemiah refused to
associate with those who were untrue to principle, and he would not permit
his workmen to associate with them The love and fear of God were his
safeguard-Dare to be a Daniel, Dare to stand alone. Thus as did
Moses, you will endure the seeing of Him who is invisible. But a
cowardly and silent reserve before evil associates, while you listen to
their devices makes you one with them Come out from among them and be
separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive
you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters,
saith the Lord Almighty." Review & Herald Vol.
4, p. 42. Ron asked Gene: Do you believe Ellen White would
give a gold medallion to the Pope of Rome and receive one from him on behalf
of the church? Gene responded: NOPE Ron responds: Gene, I will tell you brother,
neither would she respond with a mere NOPE! Again, you don't seem concerned
and you are or have been an elder in the church! Ron asked Gene: Do you believe Ellen White would
join the World Council of Churches and its subsidiary organizations and as a
CONDITION for joining, agree to evangelize only the unchurched?
Gene responded: NOPE but I pay no attention to
it as well as many others as far as evangelism. Ron responds: Since joining the WCC and
its subsidiary organizations violates strictly forbidden counsel in Scripture
(ISAIAH 8:9-13), and those who do so are broken in pieces, you don't seem too
concerned. I would think a person who is highly responsible to the people as
an elder would be far more troubled by such serious violation of God's Word! Ron asked Gene: Do you believe Ellen White
would approve of New Age Seminars at Loma Linda? Gene responded: I didn't know they did
that. NO I should say not. Ron responds: As a responsible leader of
the sheep (as an elder), you should know such things. How is it that
thousands of true reformers know of that horrendous apostasy and you don't? Ron asked Gene: Do you believe Ellen White would
approve of an SDA Elder in Gene responded: That guy if he exists
should be disfellowshiped. Ron responds: He exists https://omega77.tripod.com/sdaspiritualism.htm but
he won't be disfellowshipped because Ellen White
prophesied that the leaders would NEVER AGAIN show THE HOUSE OF JACOB, its
sins: Begin at My
Sanctuary -- "Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the
first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom
God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual
interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the
position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of
God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen
their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do
evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus 'Peace and
safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up
their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the
house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones
who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little
children all perish together." E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 5,
211. Ron asked Gene: Do you believe Ellen White would
serve coffee in SDA Sanctuaries when she said it is a sin to drink
coffee? Gene responded: NO Not a good thing. Ron responds: Is that all you have to
say?! As an elder?! Ron asked Gene: Do you believe Ellen White would
approve of unmarried couples living together? Gene responded: She never did to the best of my knowledge. Who does? Ron responds: Gene responded: NO Ron responds: Some new movement SDA
pastors are doing so and your tithe monies goes to support them as well as
those who don't do this. The last time I was at an SDA Campmeeting,
there was a full-fledged football game going on in from of the main auditorium
on Sabbath afternoon. It was led by Edson Phipps,
who was a theology student here at Gene responded: Of course not. They would be breaking the Sabbath. So do you know we shouldn't even heat our food in warm weather? Do you toast your bread on Sabbath in warm weather? Ron responds: I defend what Ellen White
teaches. The point is, the Sabbath is treated lightly by those who claim to
be commandment-keepers. Ron asked Gene: Ellen White spoke against
competitive sports and said that it develops the baser instincts that will
lead to the same spirit that contributed to Christians being killed in past
ages. Do you believe she would approve of SDA's being engaged in competitive
sports today? Gene responded: NOPE Ron responds: New Movement Adventism is violating the counsel of the Holy
Spirit gift to the church and this is apostasy from the truth. Ron asked Gene: A week or so ago, Gene responded: It is shameful. Ron responds: It is more than shameful
because it is apostasy from the educational blueprint Ellen White outlined
for our schools and it is an avenue for bringing the world into the church
and marrying the church to the world. Ron asked Gene: Would Ellen White approve of a New
Movement that has removed God, which accounts for all of the above AND FAR
MORE? 1SM 204-5. Gene responded: Well here is a problem with your
belief system in Satan's supposition. As far as I know the church holds
the same doctrine. We'd have to be participating in Ron responds: Ellen White said in 1SM 204-5 that if that New Movement
evolved, and elsewhere she said the omega would surely develop and wax stronger until Jesus comes, it would allow NOTHING TO
STAND IN ITS WAY. If you say she stood in the way of the omega which NEVER
DEVELOPED until after she was dead, you make her a lying prophet. Gene said: then where the ship goes after
that? I can tell you. 1. The Faith I Live By (1958),
page 282, paragraph 3
Chapter
Title: A Purified Church
There is no need to doubt,
to be fearful that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work,
and He will set everything in order. If matters need adjusting at the head of
the work, God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have
faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God
safely into port. God Bless, Gene Ron responds: Yes, Gene, I can tell you
where the ship goes after that! if you will define the
ship. I believe the ship is Christ and that the Captain is Christ.
Now, which ship would you have me remain aboard: "We
ARE NOT saved as a sect no denominational name has any virtue to bring us
into favor with God. We are saved individually as believers in the Lord Jesus
Christ." E.G. White, Review and Herald Articles, vol. 2, p.
464. Which Ship Defective
Ship: We can know that if a ship has false teaching it will not survive the
rigors of the ocean of strife and turmoil: "You have had too great
confidence in the ability of these men. A ship may be sound in nearly every
respect but if there is one defect,--a bit of timber worm-eaten,--the lives
of all on board are imperiled." E.G. White, Testimonies,
vol. 4, 322. Ship
Drifting at Sea Without Chart or Compass: "The
facts concerning the real condition of the professed people of God, speak
more loudly than their profession, and make it evident that some power has
cut the cable that anchored them to the Eternal Rock, and that they are
drifting away to sea, without chart or compass." E.G.
White, Selected Messages, vol. 2, p. 128, (Review and Herald, Vol. 2,
p. 231). (Also see Fundamentals of Christian
Education, p. 348). "Every ship
sailing the sea of life needs to have the divine Pilot on board but when
storms arise, when tempests threaten, many persons push their Pilot
overboard, and commit their bark into the hand of finite man, or try to steer
it themselves. Then disaster and wreckage generally follow, and the Pilot is
blamed for running them into such dangerous waters." E.G. White, Fundamentals
of Christian Education, p. 348. Is the Pilot
on board the SDA New Movement, New Organization Ship described in Selected
Messages, vol. 1, 204-5? Page 205 says He [God] has been removed! Noble Ship
#1: "I lately read of a NOBLE SHIP that was plowing its way across the
sea, when at midnight, with a terrific crash, it struck upon a rock the
passengers were awakened only to see with horror their hopeless condition,
and with the ship they sank to rise no more. The MAN AT THE HELM [VERSUS
CHRIST] had mistaken the beacon light, and hundreds of souls were at a
moment's warning launched into eternity." E.G. White, Selected
Messages, vol. 2, 128. Noble Ship
#2: "There is no need to doubt, to be fearful that the work will
not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and He will set everything in
order. If maters need adjusting at the head of the work, God will attend to
that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is going to
carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port." E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 2, 390. Immediately
preceding the above statement is the admonition: "We
cannot now step off the foundation that God has established. We cannot now
enter into any new organization for this would mean apostasy from the
truth.--Manuscript 1290, 1905. Selected Messages,
vol. 2, 390. In light of
all the statements involving a ship, we must interpret them all so that none
contradict. The best way to achieve this goal is to look for qualifying
words. In the above statement the qualifying words are NOBLE SHIP and THE
PEOPLE OF GOD. Who are the people of God? Those who keep
His commandments and heed the Laodicean message. Change
Leaders and Know it Not: Change
Leaders: "There is manifested on the part of men in responsible
positions an unwillingness to confess where they have been in the wrong and their
neglect is working disaster, not only to themselves, but to the
churches....You will be left to make mistakes of a similar character, you
will continue to lack wisdom, and will can sin righteousness and
righteousness sin. The multitude of deceptions that will prevail in these
last days will encircle you, and you will change leaders, and not know that
you have done so." E.G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 2, 448. Change
Leaders: "Men in positions of responsibility are in danger of changing leaders.
This I know, for it has been plainly revealed to me." E.G. White, Series
B, #2, p. 48. Change
Leaders: "Men who might have stood in clear light, doing valiant service
as ministers of the gospel and medical missionaries, have been accepting false
theories and sophistries which originated with the father of lies, and yet
they do not realize that they have changed." E.G. White, Special
Testimonies, Series B, #7, p. 13-16, November 20, 1905. Change
Leaders: "Satan will set up his hellish banner right in your homes, and
you will be so blinded to the real nature of his deceptions that you
reverence it as the banner of Christ." E.G. White, The 1888
Materials, p. 505. Change
Leaders: "They will not recognize him [Satan] as their enemy, that old
serpent, but they will consider him a FRIEND, one who is doing a good
work." Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 294. Change
Leaders: Satan has laid his plans to undermine our faith in the history of
the cause and work of God. I am deeply in earnest as I write this. Satan is
working with men in prominent positions to sweep away the foundation of our
faith. Shall we allow this to be done, brethren?" E.G. White, Review
and Herald, Nov. 19, 1903. Note: The
foundation of our faith involves pillar doctrines, and Newell Hammond says
this is not now, was not and never will be a problem. Again, Ellen White
refutes such foolhardy error. Change
Leaders if Mistakes are not Admitted and Changed: "If when the Lord
reveals your errors you do not repent or make confession, his providence will
bring you over the ground again and again. You will be left to make mistakes
of a similar character, you will continue to lack wisdom, and will call sin
righteousness, and righteousness sin. The multitude of deceptions that will
prevail in these last days will encircle you, and you will CHANGE LEADERS,
AND NOT KNOW THAT YOU HAVE DONE SO." E.G. White, Review and Herald,
vol. 2, p. 449. Change
Leaders: "Satan has COME IN with his specious temptations, and has led
the professed followers of Christ away from the [PILOT] Leader (Christ),
classing them with the foolish virgins." Testimonies to Ministers,
p. 130. Change
Leaders: "Refusing to follow in the path of obedience, they transferred their
allegiance to Satan. The enemy rejoiced in his success in effacing the divine
image from the minds of the people that God had chosen as His
representatives. Through [ECUMENICAL] intermarriage with idolaters and
CONSTANT ASSOCIATION WITH THEM [Isa. 8:9-20], Satan
brought about that for which he had long been working,--a national
apostasy." Fundamentals to Christian Education, p. 449. Change
Leaders: "The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark
catalogue of their crimes yet they still polluted by their presence the
tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence
of a holy God. As the men of A
confederacy: The World will form a confederacy of (beast)papists, protestants
(false prophet) and New Agers (dragon). Their purpose
will be declared as being the "saving of the world" from the
problems that are obviously causing much distress. They will gird themselves
with swords of militant power to enforce their plan. They will have great
councils and wonderful sounding plans-but they will not succeed, instead they
will be heading for total disaster. Godhead as a
pillar doctrine -- Personality of God and of Christ Landmarks: "Those
who seek to remove the old landmarks are not holding fast they are not
remembering how they have received and heard. Those who try to bring in
theories that would remove the pillars of our faith concerning the sanctuary
or concerning the personality of God or of Christ, are working as blind men.
They are seeking to bring in uncertainties and to set the people of God
adrift without an anchor." {MR760 9.5} After the
truth has been proclaimed as a witness to all nations, every conceivable
power of evil will be set in operation, and minds will be confused by many
voices crying. "Lo, here is Christ; lo, He is there. This is the truth,
I have the message from God, He has sent me with
great light." Then there will be a removing of the landmarks, and an
attempt to tear down the pillars of our faith. A more decided effort will be
made to exalt the false sabbath, and to cast
contempt upon God Himself by supplanting the day He has blessed and
sanctified. This false sabbath is to be enforced by
an oppressive law. {Mar 192.2} In the future, deception of every kind
is to arise, and we want solid ground for our feet. We want solid pillars for
the building. Not one pin is to be removed from that which the Lord has
established. The enemy will bring in false theories, such as the doctrine
that there is no sanctuary. This is one of the points on which there will be
a departing from the faith. {Mar 192.3} As we near
the end of time, falsehood will be so mingled with truth, that only those who
have the guidance of the Holy Spirit will be able to distinguish truth from
error. We need to make every effort to keep the way of the Lord. We must in
no case turn from His guidance to put our trust in man. The Lord's angels are
appointed to keep strict watch over those who put their faith in the Lord,
and these angels are to be our special help in every time of need. Every day
we are to come to the Lord with full assurance of faith, and to look to Him
for wisdom. . . . Those who are guided by the Word of the Lord will discern
with certainty between falsehood and truth, between sin and righteousness. {Mar
192.5} "I
entreat every one to be clear and firm regarding the certain truths that we
have heard and received and advocated. The statements of God's Word are
plain. Plant your feet firmly on the platform of eternal
truth. Reject every phase of error, even though it be covered with a
semblance of reality, which denies the personality of God and of
Christ." {RH, August 31, 1905 par. 11} Pillars --
Landmarks of Adventism -- "The passing of the time in 1844 was a period
of great events, opening to our astonished eyes the cleansing of the
sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God's people
upon the earth [also] the first and second angels' messages and the third,
unfurling the banner on which was inscribed, 'The commandments of God and the
faith of Jesus' [KJV]. One of the landmarks under this message was the Sanctuary
Doctrine "After
the truth has been proclaimed as a witness to all nations, every conceivable power
of evil will be set in operation, and minds will be confused by many voices
crying, 'Lo, Here is Christ, Lo, he is there. This is the truth, I have the
message from God, he has sent me with great light.'
Then there will be a removing of the landmarks, and an attempt to tear down
the pillars of our faith...(Ellen G. White, 'Let the Trumpet Give a Certain
Sound' (Concluded), Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, December 13, 1892
(Original source) See Also, Maranatha, page 189 Maranatha, p. 192 Selected Messages, Vol. 3, p. 406 SDA
Bible Commentary, Vol. 7, p. 985). After the
truth has been proclaimed as a witness to all nations, every conceivable
power of evil will be set in operation, and minds will be confused by many
voices crying. "Lo, here is Christ; lo, He is there. This is the truth,
I have the message from God, He has sent me with
great light." Then there will be a removing of the landmarks, and an
attempt to tear down the pillars of our faith. A more decided effort will be
made to exalt the false sabbath, and to cast
contempt upon God Himself by supplanting the day He has blessed and
sanctified. This false sabbath is to be enforced by
an oppressive law. {Mar 192.2 "The
Lord would teach man the lesson though united in church capacity, he is not saved
until the seal of God is placed upon him." E.G. White Comments, SDA Bible Commentary, vol.
7, p. 969. "Mark
this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them
by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen,
are those 'that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in
the church.' Testimonies,
vol. 3, pp. 266-267. "In
every nation whosoever believes with all his heart in the Lord Jesus is
accepted of God. Here, truly, is the church, out[side] of which no one can be
saved." The Great Controversy, p.
181. ----- Original Message ----- From: gardening@liveliberty.ws
Sent:
Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:13 PM Subject:
Re: Fw: [DefendEGW] Re: BOOKS OF A NEW ORDER I don't have time for you Ron you haven't answered
my questions. They are numbered 1-14 and I threw a 15th in there
but I no longer want God Bless, Gene Ron responds: I get so many emails in a day that
somehow Gene’s 15 questions got deleted. However, I later found them and
responded. What you have read above is a dialog occurring before I responded
to Gene’s 15 questions. Ron |