As a fourth generation Adventists who has studied a bit deeper than what could be justly branded as "superficial," I have a few questions I would like my fellow Seventh-day Adventists on this forum to help me answer. I will give a statement from Ellen White first, and then ask my question. I make some statements to which I invite your rebuttal:
1. "We cannot now step off the foundation that God has established. We cannot now enter into any new organization, for this would mean
APOSTASY from the truth." SM, 2, p. 390.
COMMENT: The context of the above statement was in reference to the Ellen White approved reorganization that took place in 1901. She approved of the minority group, and the majority group won out. So even before 1903, the church and entered a NEW ORGANIZATION, not approved by Ellen White, and reinstated a General Conference President, when the ORGANIZATION Ellen White approved of said there should be a committee of 15, and no President or "King."
QUESTION TO THIS FORUM: Did disregard for the 1901 Spirit of Prophecy approved ORGANIZATION to enter into a NEW ORGANIZATION, in 1903, constitute apostasy from the truth? If not, why not?
2. Statement: "There will be a shaking of the sieve. The chaff must in time be separated from the wheat. Because iniquity abound, the love of many waxes cold. It is the very time when the genuine will be strongest. There will be a separating from us of those who have not appreciated the light nor walked in it. "Great Controversy, p. 608.
COMMENTARY: The words "from us" must be interpreted as a separation from Zion, the church triumphant, as will be very evidential by the time you are finished this study.
QUESTION TO THIS FORUM:
The chaff is the same as the tares. The professing SDA church has taught since I can remember, that during the time of the Sunday Law, the chaff will be separated from the wheat, to leave the church as just wheat and the church triumphant. Ellen White says in Christ's Object Lessons, p. 72:
"The tares (chaff) and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time."
A. If the chaff is not separated from the wheat until THE END OF PROBATIONARY TIME, then how will the professing SDA church be purged and purified of all chaff to give the loud cry message before the end of probationary time?
B. How could the professing SDA Church visible organization even exist to the end of probationary time to become the church triumphant if it cannot buy or sell during that time. Some on this forum have admitted that the church cannot exist after the Sunday Law enforcement. I agree with them.
2. STATEMENT: "I am instructed to say to Seventh-day Adventists the world over, God has called us as a people to be a peculiar treasure unto Himself. He has appointed that His church on earth shall stand PERFECTLY UNITED IN THE SPIRIT AND COUNSEL OF THE LORD OF HOSTS TO THE END OF TIME." E.G. White, 397.
Notice the words AS A PEOPLE, which means the corporate entire church. She said "He (God has appointed that His church on earth shall stand PERFECTLY UNITED IN THE SPIRIT AND COUNSEL OF THE LORD (INCLUSIVE OF THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY) OF HOSTS TO THE END OF TIME."
QUESTIONS TO THIS FORUM:
A. Is the professing Seventh-day Adventist church THE WORLD OVER, a peculiar treasure unto Himself?
B. Is the professing Seventh-day Adventist church THE WORLD OVER, PERFECTLY UNITED IN THE SPIRIT AND COUNSEL OF THE LORD...." presently, when she said that it was to be so until the end of time.
ANSWER: Definitely not! Even Evangelical Christendom is reporting on the great schism within, among Adventism. Was Ellen White a false prophet? If one interprets her statement the way most Adventists do, then she is indeed made a false prophet! She said that all should be interpreted so that nothing contradicts, and the way Adventists use the above statement, they make her a gross, self-contradictory false prophet. So the statement must have another interpretation. What is that interpretation?
Ellen White said elsewhere that the 144,000 will stand perfectly united to the end of time. So what church on earth is Ellen White speaking of? The Zion Philadelphia church that stands perfectly united on doctrine and the Spirit of Prophecy. This is the only way to interpret the statement without making Ellen White a self-contradictory false prophet.
3. STATEMENT: "I know that the Lord loves His church. It is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms. There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be." E.G. White, The Remnant Church, p. 53.
QUESTIONS FOR THIS FORUM:
A. Was the church DISORGANIZED in 1903, when it "stepped off the foundation" approved at the 1901 General Conference Session, to form and enter a NEW ORGANIZATION, in defiance of what Ellen White had approved in 1901?
B. Who became the leader of the church in 1903, when it STEPPED OFF THE FOUNDATION to enter into a NEW ORGANIZATION not approved by God or the Spirit of Prophecy?
C. Who became the leader of the church when a General Conference President was elected in 1903, when it had been proven by the minority committee, whom Ellen White agreed with, that if a man is at the helm, that displaces God as the leader of the Church, and Satan is then the leader.
D. Many professing Adventists fully admit that the organized church will not be able to visibly exist after the Sunday Law. Will the church then be "disorganized:" and "broken up into independent atoms? Of course not! And why not? Because God is the leader of His true church and there is no such thing as "independent atoms" when at least 144,000 are perfectly united till the end of time without a visible structure., proving the non-efficacy and dispensability of an INDEPENDENT OF GOD NEW ORGANIZATION that was entered into in 1903.
E. Ellen White said that God would take the reins into His own hands. Is a church so led by God "broken up into independent atoms" when God is holding the reins? Of course not! Was the invisible church in the wilderness for centuries broken up into individual atoms and disorganized? Of course not, because God was its leader.
F. When the first thirteen member Seventh-day Adventist Church was formed by Jesus and His disciples, was it "disorganized" or broken-up into atoms because it left the precincts of the apostate Jewish church and formed home churches dotting the hills of Judea? Of course not!
G. When only 50 out of upwards of 100,000 remained faithful on the morn of October 23, 1844, was Philadelphia disorganized and broken up into atoms because it consisted of only 50 who had left the ORGANIZED CHURCHES OF THE DAY? Of course not! God is not in the numbers racket! God is not in the DENOMINATIONAL racket! Ellen White said that no (organized) DENOMINATION has any power to bring us into favor with God. She said that THE CHURCH is not the various denominations, The Upward Look, 315. The only purpose for an organization is to forward the gospel, God's mission and commission, and as soon as a church betrays that purpose, God chooses others, The Upward Look, 131.
4. STATEMENT: "God has a church upon the earth, who are His chosen people, who keep His commandments. He is leading, not stray offshoots, not one here and there, but a people." E.G. White, Testimonies to Ministers, 488.
QUALIFYING STATEMENT: "God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is people who love God and keep His commandments. 'Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them' (Matt. 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church.
Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls." E.G. White, The Upward Look, 315.
QUESTIONS:
A. If every word of the above statements are carefully considered, can one conclude that two-or three who love God and keep His commandments, wherever they are on this earth, are "STRAY OFFSHOOTS?" and/or "INDEPENDENT ATOMS?"
B. What then would we be FORCED to conclude comprises a "STRAY OFFSHOOT" according to Ellen White's TM 488 statement? It would have to be folk who have stepped of the foundation of what Adventists believed up to and including 1901. All others are indeed "STRAY OFFSHOOTS," and that includes NEW MOVEMENT, NEW ORGANIZATION, professing Seventh-day Adventists, who have imbibed the omega of apostasy since removing God as their leader or Conference President in 1901. Selected Messages, vol. 1, 204-205.
C. Stray offshoots would be any organization of professing Seventh-day Adventists who, as a corporate body, violate the commandments of God, because His chosen people keep His commandments.
QUESTION:
a. Is violation of the three angel's messages to enter association and counsel with fallen Babylon, a violation of God's commandments and His Everlasting Gospel commission of Rev. 14?
b. Is it violation of God's commandments to have a KING OR GENERAL CONFERENCE PRESIDENT who lords it over the people with kingly, rule or ruin power, when God commanded that the Gentiles lord it over one another but Christians are not to do so:
"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great [PRESIDENT--KING] among among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant." Matt. 20:25-27.
c. Is it "KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD" to take your brother to court as the SDA church is doing the world over?
d. Is it "keeping the commandments of God" for the professing SDA church to fraud the U.S. Government Medicare Program of nearly 9 million dollars? See SDA Church Frauds Medicare at the following WebSite:
e. Is it keeping commandment of God to come out and be a holy, peculiar people, when the church betrays the first and second angel's messages by holding joint-Easter sunrise services with Babylon?
f. Is it keeping the commandments of God to teach the world the anti-Christ doctrine that Christ did not have the nature of Adam before the fall, nor after the fall, per the 27 Fundamentals of Belief, p. 47?
g. Obviously all who do not keep the commandments of God, especially the corporate church, are STRAY OFFSHOOTS, and "INDEPENDENT ATOMS" according to TM, p. 488.
h. Obviously all who teach any doctrine other than taught by the pioneer SDA's are "STRAY OFFSHOOTS AND INDEPENDENT ATOMS" whether they remain in the church or out of it! One does not have to leave the professing SDA church to depart from truth or be an OFFSHOOT! e.g.. Desmond Ford among countless others.
5. STATEMENT: Ellen White says that we should never call a church that is heeding the Laodicean Message and keeping the Commandments of God, Babylon. I would clearly discern from her statement that if such qualification as keeping the commandments and heeding the Laodicean message distinguish a church from being Babylon, the violation of such would indeed bring a church into fellowship with Babylon. Come, let us reason together! We are given license to reason! So does Ron Beaulieu call the commandment-keeping, Laodicean Message heeding SDA Church Babylon? God forbid, I would not dare do so! I would dare to call any church that is not so doing Babylon, because that is intrinsic in Ellen White's qualifying statement as to what does not and what does constitute Babylon!
6. STATEMENT: "Some have advanced the thought that as we NEAR THE CLOSE OF TIME, every child of God will act independently of any religious organization (denomination). But I have been instructed by the Lord that in this work there is no such thing as every man's being independent...In order that the Lord's work may advance healthfully ad solidly, His people must DRAW TOGETHER." TM 488.
QUALIFYING WORDS IN THE ABOVE STATEMENT:
a. "...act independently of any religious organization." Some add their own opinion to this statement by adding the word "denomination," but that is not what the statement says. I know of no independent ministry that believes in acting independent of any religious organization. They all believe God when He says that were two or three are gathered together who believe God and keep His commandments, God is there, and that His presence alone constitutes a church. What can we safely conclude from this statement? If God's is present where two or three are present who love God and keep His commandments, His presence constitutes an organized church with Him as its leader. Many of these small group churches have pooled funds to place large full page ads in every major Newspaper in the country, depicting the Three Angel's Messages. Even New Movement Adventism, with all its money has never done this, and it is dissociating itself from those small churches that do, thereby denying and spiting the Everlasting Gospel.
7. STATEMENT: "There must be NO SEPARATING in this GREAT TESTING TIME." E.G. White, The Remnant Church, p. 53.
QUALIFYING WORDS: "NO SEPARATING."
COMMENTARY: Ellen White said that HIS PEOPLE, HIS CHURCH, "SEPARATED FROM GOD" at the end-time. Here is her prophetic past-perfect tense statement regarding the final future outcome of the professing SDA Church and all other organized churches:
"Jesus sends HIS [corporate] PEOPLE a message of warning to prepare them for his coming. To the prophet John was made known the closing work in the great plan of man's redemption. He beheld an angel flying 'in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his Judgment is come; and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters [Rev. 14:6, 7.].
The [Third] angel represented in prophecy as delivering this message, symbolizes a class of faithful men, who, obedient to the prompting of God's Spirit and the teachings of his word, proclaim this warning to the inhabitants of earth. This message was not to be committed to the religious leaders of the people. They had failed to preserve their connection with God, and had REFUSED THE LIGHT FROM HEAVEN; therefore they WERE NOT of the number described by the apostle Paul: 'But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day; we are not of the night nor of darkness [1 Thess. 5:4, 5].
The watchmen upon the walls of Zion should be the first to catch the tidings of the Saviour's advent, the first to lift their voices to proclaim him near, the first to warn the people to prepare for his coming. But they were at ease, dreaming of peace and safety, while the people were asleep in their sins. Jesus saw HIS [corporate] CHURCH, like the barren fig-tree, covered with pretentious leaves, yet destitute of precious fruit. There was a boastful observance of the forms of religion, while the spirit of true humility, penitence and faith--which alone could render the service acceptable to God--was lacking. Instead of the graces of the Spirit, there were manifested pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, oppression. A BACKSLIDING CHURCH closed their eyes to the signs of the times. God did nor forsake them, or suffer his faithfulness to fail; but they departed from him, and SEPARATED THEMSELVES from his love. As they REFUSED TO COMPLY WITH THE CONDITIONS, his promises were NOT FULFILLED to them." E.G. White, The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4, pp. 199-200 [The 1884 edition of The Great Controversy, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH TESTIMONIES, VOL 4].
QUALIFYING WORDS: HIS PEOPLE, HIS CHURCH, A BACKSLIDING CHURCH, SEPARATED THEMSELVES FROM HIS LOVE.
A backsliding church has to refer to a church that was once not backslidden, and the only church that qualifies as not once backslidden is the professing SDA Church. Vance Ferrell, an SDA minister who has a publishing company that re-publishes the book from which the above statement is taken, says that book, the 1884 Great Controversy, was written specifically for Seventh-day Adventists, versus the 1888 and 1911 editions of the Great Controversy which were written for the world.
QUESTIONS:
A. How does the above description of HIS PEOPLE, HIS CHURCH, HIS BACKSLIDDEN CHURCH, compare to Ellen White's statements concerning a church that is perfectly united in the truth to the end of time?
B. How can a church SEPARATE itself from God and still be perfectly united until the end of time?
C. How can a church SEPARATE itself from God and keep His commandments and heed the Laodicean message.
D. How can a church SEPARATE itself from God, and not become part and parcel with Babylon?
E. How can a church SEPARATE itself from God, and not be a "STRAY OFFSHOOT" from Zion the heavenly Kingdom Church of Hebrews 12:22, 23.
F. How does such a SEPARATED church line up with Ellen White's counsel that "There must be no separating in this GREAT TESTING TIME." This would place it at the end, as would her 1884 Great Controversy, 199-200 statement!
G. How can such a SEPARATED church not be disorganized or broken up into atoms, as the professing SDA church is now doing by forming many "congregationally organized churches" all over the land? Congregationally organized churches are churches that are independent of any higher controlling body. These churches are "independent offshoots" of the church and constitute an explicit example of the church being broken up into atoms and offshoots. Also, the institutions of the church are crumbling; aligning (partnering) themselves with Babylon, such as the SDA hospital in Colorado which is now in partnership with Catholics. Is Ellen White a false prophet for saying that there is no consistency or evidence that such a thing will be, when it is happening within, among the professing SDA structure right before our very eyes.
8. Ellen White said in Selected Messages, vol. 1, 204-5, that a NEW MOVEMENT, NEW ORGANIZATION, would impose itself "among:" Seventh-day Adventists, that would REMOVE GOD, and be so powerful that "NOTHING WOULD BE ALLOWED TO STAND IN ITS WAY." That means that not even the faithful wheat among such a NEW MOVEMENT, NEW ORGANIZATION could stand in its way. She said that this NEW MOVEMENT, NEW ORGANIZATION would REMOVE GOD.
COMMENTARY: Any church that removes God, or does not remove those who REMOVE GOD, is corporately fallen. At best it is certainly not perfectly united to the end of time. Such a "perfectly united" church demands a complete re-interpretation of all Ellen White's statements that the church has used since her death to establish itself on a false foundation and a NEW ORGANIZATION--MOVEMENT, because the descriptive term "perfectly united," in no wise is applicable to the professing church today!
9. STATEMENT: "I learn that you are taking the position that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, and that all that would be saved must come out of her. You are not the only man whom the enemy has deceived in this matter. For the last forty years, one man after another has arisen, claiming that the Lord has sent him with the same message, but let me tell you, as I have told them, that this message you are claiming is one of the Satanic delusions DESIGNED TO CREATE CONFUSION (Babylon) AMONG THE CHURCHES. My brother, you are certainly off the track. E.G. White, Review and Herald Articles, vol. 3, p. 82.
QUALIFYING COMMENTS: If you will turn to the article the above statement is taken from, the article is entitled "The Remnant Church not Babylon." Here is another qualifying statement from the same page:
"Let all be careful not to make an outcry against the only people who are fulfilling the description given of the REMNANT PEOPLE, WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND HAVE THE FAITH OF JESUS, WHO ARE EXALTING THE STANDARD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IN THESE LAST DAYS."
COMMENTARY: A church that has SEPARATED ITSELF FROM GOD AND REMOVED GOD, and has backslid from God, and REFUSED THE CONDITIONS so that His promises "WERE NOT [PAST PERFECT TENSE] FULFILLED TO THEM." is not descriptive of the REMNANT CHURCH that fulfills the conditions of God by keeping His commandments. The remnant church cannot in any wise refer to a church that has been operating from oft a NEW ORGANIZATION not approved of God since 1903, and that REMOVES GOD to teach the world a wrong anti-Christ version of His Human Nature, and teaches the intellectual philosophy of man as far as overcoming is concerned, teaching that we cannot overcome until glorification.
According to Ellen White, THE REMNANT CHURCH is Zion, the Bride, the 144,000, the CHURCH TRIUMPHANT, from which and by which the tares are shaken. It cannot be both ways friend. Yhe SDA denomination is teaching and has long taught that the tares will all leave the Laodicean SDA church militant to leave it the church triumphant. Ellen White says that the sinners are shaken out of ZION, and Zion is Philadelphia, the NEW JERUSALEM, (Rev. 3:12) the Church Triumphant, not Laodicea. Read it for yourselves in Rev. 3:12. Philadelphia is the NEW JERUSALEM, Zion, the REMNANT that is kept through the time of trouble to be translated without seeing death. Philadelphia is completely different from Laodicea. All states of the seven churches exist concomitantly at the end of time, and Laodicea is never referred to as New Jerusalem, Zion, the bride, as Ellen White refers to New Jerusalem in The Great Controversy, 426, 427.
Any who are saved out of all the churches at the end-time will join the bridal procession of Christ's Object Lessons 405-6.
The church that appears as about to fall is ZION, Philadelphia, not Laodicea.
"The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners IN ZION [NOT LAODICEA] will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat [AFTER THE CLOSE OF PROBATIONARY TIME--CHRIST'S OBJECT LESSONS 72]. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths." E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 2, 380.
The time-frame as to precisely when the church appears about to fall, is depicted in The Great Controversy, p. 616.
"The people of God will then be plunged into those scenes of affliction and distress described by the prophet as the time of Jacob's trouble....Jacob's night of anguish, when he wrestled in prayer for deliverance from the hand of Esau (Genesis 32:24-30), represents the experience of God's people in the time of trouble....
Jacob's company, unarmed and defenseless, seemed ABOUT TO FALL helpless victims of violence and slaughter....
So should the followers of Christ, as they approach the time of trouble, make every exertion to place themselves in a proper light before the people, to disarm prejudice, and to avert the danger which threatens liberty of conscience." The Great Controversy, p. 616.
10. STATEMENT: “No advice or sanction is given in the Word of God to those who believe the third angel's message to lead them to suppose that they can draw apart. This you may settle with yourselves forever. It is the devising of unsanctified minds that would encourage a state of disunion. The sophistry of men may appear right in their own eyes, but it is not truth and righteousness. ‘For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; . . . that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross’” (Eph. 2:14-16). {3SM 21.2}
I sincerely believe that the SDA Church has violated the first and second angel's messages, along with the Midnight Cry, in forming ecumenical liaisons with Babylon. Such certainly DOES NOT constitute belief in the third angel's messages! Also, the church's partnership with the Catholics in Denver, is strictly prohibited by the Word of God and the Spirit of Prophecy. Therefore, I do not believe that I have "drawn apart" from those who believe in AND PRACTICE the three angel's messages and the Midnight Cry. I for one have not withdrawn from those who REALLY believe in the three angel's messages, and who know what constitutes CORPORATELY responsibility for violating those messages. Apparently many SDAs are not acquainted with, and/or do not agree with corporate responsibility as that principle relates to corporate sin on the part of any church. You might study The Upward Look, 131, very prayerfully. Corporate responsibility is also an issue upon which we may settle our minds FOREVER.
I do not believe in the formation of another denomination. I believe that we are very close to the time of persecution, and that a faithful remnant will be led directly by God to finish His work. God did it with 12 and 70 in the first proclamation of the gospel to the then known world, and He will do it with 144,000 generals, and some very faithful martyrs imminently.
The Real Church That Appears as About to Fall
The church that appears as about to fall is ZION, Philadelphia, the church triumphant, not Laodicea, the church militant as indelibly proven by the following evidence:
"The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners IN ZION [NOT LAODICEA] will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat [AFTER THE CLOSE OF PROBATIONARY TIME--CHRIST'S OBJECT LESSONS 72]. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths." E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 2, 380.
The time-frame as to precisely when the church appears about to fall, is depicted in The Great Controversy, p. 616.
"The people of God will then be plunged into those scenes of affliction and distress described by the prophet as the time of Jacob's trouble....Jacob's night of anguish, when he wrestled in prayer for deliverance from the hand of Esau (Genesis 32:24-30), represents the experience of God's people in the time of trouble....
Jacob's company, unarmed and defenseless, seemed ABOUT TO FALL helpless victims of violence and slaughter....
So should the followers of Christ, as they approach the time of trouble, make every exertion to place themselves in a proper light before the people, to disarm prejudice, and to avert the danger which threatens liberty of conscience." The Great Controversy, p. 616.
This entire scenario has been misrepresented by professing Seventh-day Adventists for decades to refer to the Laodicean church militant structure as appearing as about to fall, but not falling, and going through to the kingdom. What a farce. What a sham. What a false representation of God's truth.
Here Ellen White parallels the experience of Jacob, with the end-time experience referred to as the Great Time of Jacob's Trouble. It is then that the church triumphant appears as about to fall, because it is surrounded by the enemy as was Jacob when he went to meet his brother, the enemy.
I will be most happy to entertain any and all questions you might have regarding any aspect of this study.
Sincerely,
Ron Beaulieu