Internet Opponents Versus Scripture and EGW on Babylon--Part IV

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Dear Reader,

This is part four on Ellen White's view of Babylon and how the SDA church could become a sister to fallen Babylon. Keep in mind that I am presenting her message and interpreting it according to all her statements on the matter and relative Scripture testimony.

There are two masters, God and Satan. Satan's Synagogue is confusion, Babylon. If a church has removed God via Omega Apostasy, as some concede to, (Selected Messages, Book 1, 204-5), then it is controlled by Satan and is in confusion and is thus Babylon. If a church has to imbibe all the errors of Rome in order to become a PART of Babylon, then the fallen churches would not be Babylon because they do not teach all the errors of Rome. According to Ellen White, the church only has to marry itself to the world to become Babylon, the cage of every unclean and hateful bird. It does not have to teach all the erroneous doctrines of Babylon. According to Ellen White, it does not even have to teach Sunday sacredness. She stated three conditions under which the church would become the cage of every unclean and hateful bird:

  • Marrying the church to the world. (Worldly Accreditation in its educational facilities and/or Ecumenical Confederacy with churches indistinguishable from the world (Early Writings, 273).
  • Unlawful intimacy allowed into the church.
  • Forming a New Movement that removes God--Selected Messages, Book 1, 204-5.
  • Becoming Laodicean to the point of no return, which includes adoption of either of the first three items. With God removed, Satan is then in control.

Ron Beaulieu

----- Original Message -----


I am going to show you something profound. You quote Ellen White's statement to the effect that:

"There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be. -2SM 63, 68, 69 (1893).

Then she gives a number of statements that state conditions under which the church would and thus could become the cage of every unclean and hateful bird--language strictly used to define Babylon in Revelation 18.

So, Opponent, we have a big problem here. Either Ellen White is made a self-contradictory false prophet, or we interpret so that nothing contradicts, as she instructs. How can we do this? We can easily assume that in 1893, there was not the least evidence that such a thing would be. This is even subject to interpretation, because she could have been referring to the SDA church triumphant and not the church militant. However, later she saw that such a thing could indeed be, because she gave the conditions under which it could be so. In addition, she must be interpreted in light of Ezekiel and Isaiah. Ezekiel 5:1-3, says that there will be another coming out of Jerusalem, the church. It specifies a remnant escaping in verse 3, after which three-thirds--equaling a whole--church is destroyed. Ezekiel 5:9 demands an end-time update of Ezekiel because this verse mentions the worst thing God ever did before or will ever do again. This is end-time per Matthew 24:21. So, if you want to interpret Ellen White to make her disagree with Ezekiel, you are still left with Ezekiel's teaching that there will be another coming out of the remnant--a remnant of the remnant if you will.

That is what happened in the partial fulfillment of Ezekiel 5 and 9 in A.D. 70, The Great Controversy, Chapter 1. Ellen White said that was a PREFIGURE. That PREFIGURE TYPE involved God's "chosen" people, the Jews. Who is the only end-time counterpart to the Jews, who claim to keep the commandments of God? SDA's of course!

All these facts provide a whale of a lot of evidence from the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy that "....such a thing will be." Do you believe Ezekiel chapters five and nine which are different takes on the same event? Do you believe that Ezekiel 5:9 establishes end-time context for Ezekiel 5 and 9? If not, why not?

Ron Beaulieu

----- Original Message -----

From: Opponent:


Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 2:20 PM

Subject: Re: [mikesbiblestudyclass] Re: What Constitutes Babylon According to Ellen White

Hello Rebel,

Funny thing is I agree with everything Ron says, everything Ron says is true except the part about being Babylon and the call to come out of her, because the SOP says "There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be. -2SM 63, 68, 69 (1893)

Ron Beaulieu, Nicholas Petula, Robert Sessler and others come along with evidence from the SOP that the Church has become Babylon. What a grand plan of Satan! Someone comes along using quotes from the Testimonies proclaiming the Adventist Church has become Babylon!! Come Out of Her!! They use very convincing quotes from Sister White.

Then I read the quote from Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers Page 56 that says

"Those who have proclaimed the Seventh-day Adventist Church as Babylon, have made use of the Testimonies in giving their position a seeming support; but why is it that they did not present that which for years has been the burden of my message--the unity of the church? Why did they not quote the words of the angel, "Press together, press together, press together"? Why did they not repeat the admonition and state the principle, that "in union there is strength, in division there is weakness"? It is such messages as these men have borne that divide the church, and put us to shame before the enemies of truth; and in such messages is plainly revealed the specious working of the great deceiver, who would hinder the church from attaining unto perfection in unity. These teachers follow the sparks of their own kindling, move according to their own independent judgment, and cumber the truth with false notions and theories. They refuse the counsel of their brethren, and press on in their own way until they become just what Satan would desire to have them--unbalanced in mind." {TM 56.1}

There are Jesuits in The General Conference, books of a new order have been written, tithe monies are misapplied, the Sabbath is lightly regarded, Every uncouth thing is being demonstrated in our Churches.

But I also read in the SOP.

"We are sorry that there are defective members, that there are tares amid the wheat. . . . Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counseled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard."--TM 45, 49 (1893).

Nicholas Petula and Robert Sessler say that Probation has already closed for the SDA Church, read it for yourself if your still a member of the Church, I'm afraid probation has already closed for you according to them.

I agree with Ron's Study the 9th chapter of Ezekiel, but will the slaughter out on the those who have remained faithful and true. When the slaughter takes place only those faithful and true will remain the apostates will be destroyed.

Vance Ferrell says:

Our Historic Teachings are worth defending, for they are totally correct. The Spirit of Prophecy is fully inspired of God and we will be judged by what we do with those counsels.

We have come to a time when even long-time church goers- no longer know the God-given truths of this movement - We urge all SDAs- even if you are SURE you know 'TRUTH' to prayerfully study the material found here!

This is not a 'call in' or a 'call out': It is a defense of God's inspired teachings and a cry to return to God's ways!

I agree with Vance, he sighs and crys for the abominations done in the Church, yet he does not call the Church Babylon or call people out of it which is in agreement with Mrs. White.

I stand with Sister White who says "The message to pronounce the Seventh-Day Adventist Church Babylon, and call the people of God out of her, does not come from any heavenly messenger, or any human agent inspired by the Spirit of God." {2SM 66.2} To claim that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, is to make the same claim as does Satan, who is an accuser of the brethren, who accuses them before God night and day. By this misusing of the Testimonies, souls are placed in perplexity, because they cannot understand the relation of the
Testimonies to such a position as is taken by those in error; for God intended that the Testimonies should always have a setting in the framework of truth. {TM 42.1}

Ron's response to Opponent: Vance Ferrell is like the old man who roamed Jerusalem for seven years before it was destroyed by the Romans, crying the woes of that city. He knew all the apostasies of the Jewish church better than anyone else. But what happened to him. He, like Vance Ferrell, took a position contrary to the true prophets who were warning the true Christians of when to leave the city. Thus, as Ellen White and history record for us, the old man who predicted the demise of the city, died in the destruction of Jerusalem. Why? Because he did not heed or understand the warning of the true prophets who had told when to flee the city. Vance Ferrell is in the same position. He either does not understand Ellen White's clear and clarion call of when to flee the apostate SDA church, or he refuses to do so for other reasons. What could some of those "other reasons" be? Vance takes in a huge sum of money from church members. If he told the folk it was time to leave according to Ellen White's statement of when to flee, he would not receive a fraction of the financial gain he extracts from the membership.

Here is Ellen White clear statement of when to fear and shun, which means flee. The only way you can properly fear and shun like Nehemiah the prophet, is not to even talk to the enemy:

Fear and Shun "'They that forsake the law praise the wicked.' Proverbs 28:4. When those who are uniting with the world, yet claiming great purity, plead for union with those who have ever been the opposers of the cause of truth, we should fear and shun them as decidedly as did Nehemiah. Such counsel is prompted by the enemy of all good. It is the speech of timeservers, and should be resisted as resolutely today as then. Whatever influence would tend to unsettle the faith of God' people in His guiding power, should be steadfastly withstood." E.G. White, Prophets and kings, p. 660.

It was this writer who first informed Vance Ferrell of the SDA church's involvement in the ecumenical movement. I called him on the phone and told him he should be informing his clients on that issue. How has the professing SDA church united with the world? By joining the world and national councils of churches as MEMBERS. Ellen White says in Early Writings, p. 273, that the fallen churches cannot be distinguished from the world. So joining them is like joining the world from which they cannot be distinguished.

The way any church joins the World Council of Churches is by joining any ONE National Council of Churches in any ONE country of the world. The professing new movement SDA church has joined (AS FULL MEMBERS) the National Councils of Churches in a number of countries of the world and cannot operate above ground without joining the National Council of Churches in those respective countries. I name those countries in other documents on my Website. Vance Ferrell is well aware of this requirement for being a member of the World Council of Churches. He has spelled it all out in his literature on SDA ecumenical involvement. Yet he ignores Ellen White's counsel to take the same course as Nehemiah took when the church should become joined to the world. For this, Vance may well be destroyed with the church in an Ezekiel 9 conflagration such as the Destruction of Jerusalem, if he does not change his current stance on this crucial issue. He will also lead tens of thousands professing SDA's down the same path to eternal loss.

By joining the fallen Babylonian churches in ASSOCIATION, COUNCIL, GIRDING AND/OR CONFEDERACY, (Isaiah 8:9-20), the professing SDA church has to pay dues to Babylon. Is the church separate and peculiar from Babylon if it has joined Babylon's councils and finances her? I believe the answer to this all important question should be clear to discerning minds. Take Babylon's local Ministerial Associations for example. All prospective SDA theology students are urged at Andrews University, to join their local Ministerial Association upon receiving a call to a district. Pastors have to pay annual dues to any such local Ministerial Association, and that is financing Babylon any which way you slice it. So can one join and finance Babylon and not be considered as part of it by God? The answer should be clear.

Vance Ferrell has been double-minded on other important issues such as the identity of the Holy Spirit and his position of being a pastor for the SDA church, and his position on Ellen White's statement on the church that appears as about to fall. Concerning his pastorate position, he states in his autobiography book that he resigned because he believed he would have to sacrifice principle in order to remain a pastor for the SDA church. Then he tells his supporters to go and here unprincipled pastors of that church. Consistency is a jewel as Ellen White oft cited!

Concerning the issue of hypnosis, for example, he instructs SDA members to just pray before going to listening to SDA pastors who have been trained in Eriksonian hypnosis techniques via Neuro-Linguistic Programming. That is a method of hypnotizing one without his/her knowing it. Thus, Vance advocates going on Satan's ground as long as you pray before doing so! So we see that Vance is willing to compromise not only his own salvation prospect, but that of the many clients he influences. That is a dangerous course. But his money flow would cease if he took the correct course.

I have explained in other documents on my Website how Vance totally misses Ellen White's truth on the Holy Spirit being the life and soul of Christ BEFORE the Incarnation. Likewise, I have demonstrated how Vance grossly misinterprets Ellen White's statement on the church that appears as about to fall. All these issues are of very serious consequence to every professing SDA.

Blank wrote:
Comment by Kevin:


As I attend services with SDA I see a wide variety of beliefs. SDA are branching out just like many other organizations do, some move on to more truths while others refuse to accept anything that is revealed as being true just because their founders were not the ones that revealed it. Your thesis seams to be saying that all are safe as long as they remain in the church, but those who remain within a church that accepts false doctrine and refuse to accept truths that are being revealed in these last days are not safe. By doing so they will be identified as being the blind who are following blind guides. "BOTH shall fall!" (Mt. 15:14)

Yahweh bless each and everyone who does accept the truths that are being revealed in these last days,


Blank wrote------------------------

Let me clarify myself while I do not believe the Church is Babylon, I do believe it is in apostasy.

Sister White says "The Lord has not given you a message to call the Seventh-day Adventists Babylon, and to call the people of God to come out of her......There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be. -2SM63, 68, 69 (1893).

She says #8220;there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be.#8221; This is referring to the future past her time and Ellen says there is no evidence in her mind that such a thing will be. Yes but what about the Jesuits and misuse of tithe, the books of a new order being written.

When or if the SDA Church fills all those points I gave and all the points Ron gave then the Church will have become Babylon until then she is NOT Babylon.

We are not saved as a sect; no denominational name has any virtue to bring us into favor with God. We are saved individually as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. And "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God." {RH, February 10, 1891par. 5}

We are to sigh hand cry and pray for those who are in apostasy in the church. We are NOT to leave the Church.

The work to be done now is that of sounding this last message of mercy to a fallen world. A new life is coming from heaven and taking possession of all God's people. But divisions will come in the church. Two parties will be developed. The wheat and tares grow up together for the harvest. {17MR 17.2}

Did you get that? Divisions will come in the Church, Two parties developed in the Church, both these parties grow up together.

The work will grow deeper and become more earnest to the very close of time. And all who are laborers together with God will contend most earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. They will not be turned from the present message, which is already lightening the earth with its glory. Nothing is worth contending for but the glory of God. The only rock that will stand is the Rock of Ages. The truth as it is in Jesus is the refuge in these days of error. {17MR 18.1}

We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? {TSB 188.3}

How can anyone make decided efforts to cure the existing evil if they leave the Church? Ron responds to Opponent: The efforts to cure the evil should have been made before the church became a sister to fallen Babylon, and became corrupted and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird. When a church falls from the privilege of great light, its darkness then becomes in proportion to the light it once possessed. Ellen White makes this principle clear. Now that the church has fallen, how can we make decided efforts to deal with that problem? The same way we deal with the other fallen churches. We do not join them in order to reform them. We reform their members by giving them the truth by other means.

Back to Opponents comments:

The great issue so near at hand [enforcement of Sunday laws] will weed out those whom God has not appointed and He will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain.--3SM 385 (1886).

God's true people will stand firm in the truth, the Tares in the Church will be weeded out by the Sunday Law. God will purify his Church.

Many will stand in our pulpits with the torch of false prophecy in their hands, kindled from the hellish torch of Satan. . . . {LDE 179.3}

Some will go out from among us who will bear the ark no longer. But these can not make walls to obstruct the truth; for it will go onward and upward to the end.--TM 409, 411 (1898). {LDE 179.4}

Ministers and doctors may depart from the faith, as the Word declares they will, and as the messages that God has given His servant declare they will.--7MR 192 (1906). {LDE 179.5}

The shaking of God blows away multitudes like dry leaves.--4T 89(1876). {LDE 180.1}

It blows them away from where? They leave the Church.

Ron responds: Some will leave even the SDA church militant, but the bad are not shaken out to leave that church the church triumphant. The good leave the apostate church just as they did in the PREFIGURE of A.D. 70. A PREFIGURE TYPE is a pretty sure and safe example to follow. Ezekiel 22:17-31 says where the tares are shaken. Do you believe Ezekiel?

Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat.--5T 81 (1882). {LDE 180.2}

Soon God's people will be tested by fiery trials, and the great proportion of those who now appear to be genuine and true will prove to be base metal. . . . {LDE 180.3}

When the religion of Christ is most held in contempt, when His law is most despised, then should our zeal be the warmest and our courage and firmness the most unflinching. To stand in defense of truth and righteousness when the majority forsake us, to fight the battles of the Lord when champions are few--this will be our test. At this time we must gather warmth from the coldness of others, courage from their cowardice, and loyalty from their treason.--5T 136 (1882).

The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.--2SM 380 (1886).

Do you get that? The sinners will be sifted out of the Church. at the end. Ron responds: My opponent makes the great mistake that the majority of sleeping SDA virgins have made since the death of Ellen G. White. The church that appears as about to fall is the SDA church triumphant that has fled to the wilderness and appears as about to fall when it is surrounded by the enemy. I have proven that in my document entitled New Light on the Church That Appears as About to Fall. Ellen White says that Ezekiel 9 will be literally fulfilled again. The same author of Ezekiel 9, tells where the tares are gathered in Ezekiel 22:17-31, into the midsts of Jerusalem, for burning and melting. What church is Jerusalem? What church is the antitype of the apostate Jewish church of A.D. 70 fame? Non other than the current day professing SDA church militant. This is the church that professes to keep the commandments of God as did the Jews. How do we know from Scripture that Ezekiel 9 will be literally repeated. Read Ezekiel 5:9 and decide for yourself if it was fulfilled in A.D. 70, at the destruction of Jerusalem. Was that the worst thing God ever did or will ever again do? No! The worst thing God does is at the end of time. Cross reference and confirm this with Matthew 24:21. In Ezekiel 5:1-4, which is just another take on Ezekiel 9, a faithful remnant escapes the church--a remnant leaves the remnant if you will. The remaining three-thirds of the church, equaling a whole, is destroyed. Ellen White said that A.D. 70 was a PREFIGURE, and the only church that the apostate Jewish church of A.D. 70 could PREFIGURE or TYPIFY, is the professing SDA church. Was the apostate Jewish church to have a latter day COUNTERPART: Notice:

COUNTERPART: "The Lord commanded one of his ancient servants, 'Pray not thou for this people [Jer. 7:16 and 11:14], neither lift up cry nor prayer for them; neither make intercession to me; for I will not hear thee.' The prophet thus describes the sins which had called forth this fearful denunciation: 'The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so; and what will ye do in the end thereof?' 'From the least of them even unto the greatest of them, every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest, every one dealeth falsely. They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace, when there is no peace.' The apostles declare that this state of things will find its COUNTERPART in the last days</I>.</B> Many have a form of godliness, but in their daily life deny the power thereof. They have ceased to be convicted of ther sins or alarmed at their state. They say in their hearts, 'The church is flourishing. Peace and spiritual prosperity are within her borders.' The words of the prophet may well apply to these self-deceivers, 'They have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them." E. G. White, Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 11-07-82.

COUNTERPART: "In the time of the Saviour, the Jews had so covered over the precious jewels of truth with the rubbish of tradition and fable, that it was impossible to distinguish the true from the false. The Saviour came to clear away the rubbish of superstition and long-cherished errors, and to set the jewels of God's word in the framework of truth. What would the Saviour do if he should come to us now as he did to the Jews? He would have to do a similar work in clearing away the rubbish of tradition and ceremony. The Jews were greatly disturbed when he did this work [As are SDAs today!]. They had lost sight of the original truth of God, but Christ brought it again to view. It is our work to free the precious truths of God from superstition and error." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 308.

There is a modern COUNTERPART to the ancient apostate "chosen people" of God. That modern COUNTERPART is the people who claim to be the modern "chosen people" of God, the remnant, if you will. If the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was a PREFIGURE, (P. 25 The Great Controversy), the antitype would have to involve a people who are similar to the Jews--commandment-keepers. Judgment begins at the house of God. Even though the PREFIGURE is a picture of what will finally happen to the world, it all begins at His Sanctuary, a people who are "chosen" like the Jews were, and SDA's are the only ones who claim to be "chosen."

There are over 100 statements to the affect that SDAs are repeating the history of ancient Israel. Here are just a few of them:

"I have been shown that the spirit of the world is fast leavening the church. You are following the same path as did ancient Israel. There is the same falling away from your holy calling as God's peculiar people. You are having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. Your [ecumenical] concord with unbelievers have provoked he Lord's displeasure. You know not the things that belong to your peace, and they are fast being hid from your eyes. [The very words applied to fallen Israel on page 17 of The Great Controversy] Your neglect to follow the light will place you in a more unfavorable position than the Jews upon whom Christ pronounced a woe." Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 75-76.

"Like ancient Israel, the church has dishonored her God by departing from the light, neglecting her duties, and abusing her high and exalted privilege of being peculiar and holy in character. Her members have violated their covenant to live for God and him only. They have joined with the selfish and world-loving. Pride, the love of pleasure, and sin have been cherished, and CHRIST HAS DEPARTED. His Spirit has been quenched in the church. Satan works wide by side with professed Christians; yet they are so destitute of spiritual discernment that they do not detect him." E.G. White, Testimonies,vol. 2, pp. 441-442.

"Among the professed followers of Christ, there is the same pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, and OPPRESSION, that existed in the Jewish nation." E.G. White, Sketches from the Life of Paul, 251-252.

"God's professed people are selfish and self-caring....They are idolaters, and are worse, in the sight of God, than the heathen, graven-image worshipers who have had no knowledge of a better way." Testimonies, vol. 2, 441-442.

Am I remiss in observing (reasoning) that worse than heathen, graven-image worshippers, means worse than Babylon? Especially after knowing the truth and a knowledge of a better way! If I am how and why? and if I am I apologize. By the above statement it is flattery, presumption, and patronization error to refer to the apostate SDA church as Babylon! No, let it not be said by one Tom Cusack that Ron Beaulieu believes the church is Babylon! I concur with Ellen White that God's professed people are worse than Babylonian heathen graven image idol worshippers! Worse than Catholics! Worse than the great Whore! Why? Because they had the light of truth and have willfully united with the great whore in business partnership! Ellen White said we are never to unite with unbelievers in business partnership, let alone the great Whore of Babylon!

"Now it is just EXACTLY as in the days of the Jews. When a message came in, why all the power of the leaders [such some leaders on this forum] WAS PUT AGAINST IT, THAT IT SHOULD NOT HAVE ACCESS TO THE PEOPLE. Now, brethren, GO TO GOD FOR YOURSELVES, and on your knees plead with God...If God sends us light, let it come to us, and let no man close the door, or try to close it. Don't close it yourselves. Open the door of your heart and let the brilliant rays of light shine into your heart and into your mind. I pray you, let the Sun of Righteousness in." E.G. White, Manuscript Release #900, Manuscript 9, 1890. 1888 Materials, p. 541.

"The day of God is right upon us, and the world has converted the church. Both are in harmony, and are acting upon a short-sited policy" E.G. White, General Conference Bulletin, 1st Quarter, 1900.

"The leaven if godliness has not entirely lost its power. At the time when the danger and depression of the church are greatest, the little company who are standing in the light will be sighing and crying for the abominations that are done in the land. But MORE ESPECIALLY will their prayers arise in behalf of the church because ITS MEMBERS are doing after the manner of the world." Testimonies, vol. 5, 209, 210.

Here we have reference to "...when the danger and depression of the church are greatest..." This can only refer to the SDA church, because it is she who will experience such danger and depression.

We find a little company (remnant) standing in the light and they are not MEMBERS, because the MEMBERS are doing after the manner of the world, and if the little company were MEMBERS of the church, they would be doing after the manner of the world also! Come, let us reason together. We were given the ability and license to so reason.

Back to my Opponents comments:

As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition.--GC 608 (1911).

Ron's comments: The professing SDA church militant will abandon its position and instruct it members to keep Sunday sacred. Ellen White says so. That church has already abandoned its position by joining Babylon's Associations, Councils, and Confederacies. It will continue to apostatize and be destroyed in the end-time fulfillment of the Ezekiel 9 debacle. Opponents Comments:

There is no need to doubt, to be fearful that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and He will set everything in order. If matters need adjusting at the head of the work God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port.--2SM390 (1892).

Ron's Comments: Of course the work will succeed. There will be a faithful remnant from the SDA church militant that will comprise the SDA church triumphant. This remnant that escapes is described in Ezekiel 5:1-3 with emphasis on verse 3.

Opponents Comments:

We are sorry that there are defective members,that there are tares amid the wheat. . . .Although there are evils existing IN THE CHURCH, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counseled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard.--TM 45, 49 (1893).

Ron responds: Defective members and tares amid the wheat are very different from gross apostasies for which God's people are "broken in pieces," Isaiah 8:9-20 and Ezekiel 9:2, (see margin for slaughter weapon) "his weapon of breaking in pieces. There are defective members in every church, even home churches, but defects must never be misconstrued and thought to be indistinct from gross apostasies. For example, Jerusalem was not destroyed because of mere defects. She was destroyed because of gross apostasies.

The SDA remnant church will be the church that will be the light of the world. She, with the empowerment of the Holy Spirit in the latter Loud Cry, will give the light to the entire world. Christ did it with 12 members in His day, and He will do it with 144,000 at the end time.

Opponents Comments:

Sister White says there are evils IN the Church and will be until the end of the world.

Ron responds: The tares are evil. Judas was a tare. He was evil. He was later shaken out. Ellen White defines tares as those who appear as sincere but are not, and their motives would have to be judged to remove them from the wheat. Tares are not open sinners. Ellen White made it clear that open sinners are to be reformed or removed from the church or they will make it impossible for the wheat to mature. Since the church will NEVER AGAIN remove the open sinners (because it will never again show them their sins), the wheat must remove itself. Notice:

"Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus 'Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together." E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211.

Some try to say that the Lord's sanctuary--those to whom God had given great light and the House of Jacob refers to the fallen Babylonian churches! They are thus self-deceived.

"Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church..." Christ's Object Lessons, 71. How, pray tell, does the church separate open sin from the church if it will NEVER AGAIN show God's people their transgressions (sins)?! This one issue ALONE would demand a coming out of a remnant! Either Ellen White was a double-minded false prophet, or we must interpret her statements so that non contradict. If she said that the church would NEVER AGAIN show the HOUSE OF JACOB its sins, then that leaves one course for the sincere SDA. Separate or be corrupted with the open sinning thorns who will prevent the wheat from maturing if it remains with the thorns.

Thorns are open sinners who should be removed or it will be impossible for the wheat to mature:

"Thorns sprung up.--The thorns made it impossible for the wheat to mature (see Luke 8:14). In the same way secular interest prevent the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22, 23) from reaching maturity. Religion is relegated to the subordinate position of being only one interest among many. For lack of cultivation it withers and eventually dies. That which the thorny-ground hearers lack is a moral transformation (COL 50). To them, justification is the sum and substance of religion, and they fail to realize that the Christian life consists essentially in the process known as sanctification--the process by which evil traits and tendencies are replaced by the perfect life-pattern of Jesus Christ." SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, 405.

If the open sinners will NEVER AGAIN be shown their sins, let alone removed, how could the wheat mature in such an apostate church which refuses the counsel of God and its prophet to separate open sinners from the church?

"It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to unite with those who are corrupt, and still remain pure. (II Corinthians 6:14-15 quoted). God and Christ and the heavenly host would have men know that if he unites with the corrupt he will become corrupt." E. G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 4, p. 137.

"The thorns of sin will grow in any soil, they need no cultivation; but grace must be carefully cultivated. The briers and thorns are always ready to spring up, and the work of purification must advance continually....

The thorns that have been cut off but not uprooted grow space, until the soul [and/or the church] is overspread with them." E. G. White, Christ's Object Lessons,50.

Opponents Comments:

A Statement by W. C. White:


Ron's response: There are a number of points regarding the above statement by Willie White that must be considered.

  • The statement by Willie White is hearsay.
  • There will be no other church. Another church is different from a remnant escaping from the same church, per Ezekiel 5:1-3.
  • If Ellen White did make such a statement by way of "positive teaching," Ellen White would have contradicted Scripture, specifically Ezekiel 5 and 9. She would have contradicted herself when she said that Ezekiel 9 would have another literal fulfillment and that there would be a latter day COUNTERPART to the apostate Jewish church.
  • Ellen White would have contradicted herself in the following statements which alludes to the possibility that there could be another coming out:

Another Coming Out: As reformers they had come out of the denominational churches, but they now act a part similar to that which the churches acted. We hoped that there would not be the necessity for another coming out." Ellen G. White, The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, Vol. 1, p. 356-7.

Another Coming Out: "The Lord Jesus will always have a chosen people to serve Him. When the Jewish people rejected Christ, the Prince of life. He took from them the kingdom of God and gave it unto the Gentiles. God will continue to work on this principle with every branch of His work. When a church proves unfaithful to the work of the Lord, whatever their position may be, however high and sacred their calling, the Lord can no longer work with them. Others are then chosen to bear important responsibilities. But, if these in turn do not purify their lives from every wrong action, if they do not establish pure and holy principles in all their borders, then the Lord will grievously afflict and humble them and, unless they repent, will remove them from their place and make them a reproach.

God is not 'worshipped with men's hands, as tough he needed any thing' (Acts 17:25). E. G. White, The Upward Look, 131.

Also, all of Ellen White's statements that the professing SDA church militant could become the cage of every unclean and hateful bird, and found wanting, would be self-contradictory to Willie's purported statement that Ellen White said the church would not apostatize to the point that there would be the need for another coming out.


Thanks for your response. SDA's cannot call the fallen churches Babylon, and then join their associations, councils and confederacies--and then call people out of those churches. That is what has transpired. The SDA church s a member of the World Council of Churches in at least 6 different countries of the world. This is strictly forbidden in Isaiah 8:9-20. Ellen White has much to say on those verses, but Isaiah will do for those who do not agree with or accept Ellen White. SDA Ministers are encouraged at Andrew's University to join their local Ministerial Associations. I called a Ph.D.. lady at the Canadian Councils of Churches and she told me that those Ministerial Associations are a local subsidiary of the World Council of Churches and its various National Council's of Churches. Basically, we cannot call those churches Babylon and them join them in Association, council, girding and confederacy. I called the SDA Treasurer in 1988 and
asked how much we contributed to the National Council of Churches in the U.S.A. that year. He said: "Just a minute and I will check for you." He went to check and came back to the phone to inform me that $8000.00 has been given to that one Council that year. Also, SDA ministers pay annual dues to
local Ministerial Associations. I cannot see how we can join Babylon's councils and finance it without being part of it. Blank can and that is his privilege. This is no attack. This is just me wondering and asking.Isaiah 8:9-16 says that any church that joins God's enemies will be broken in pieces. Then in verse 2 of Ezekiel 9, the margin defines the slaughter weapon as "his weapon of breaking in pieces." Is this why Ezekiel 9 has
another literal fulfillment beginning with the SDA church, according to Ellen White?

Ron Beaulieu

----- Original Message -----
From: "Blank" <Blank>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 2:19 PM
Subject: Should Adventists join some New Movement?

Shalom Ron,

Thank you for all of your efforts to expose falsehoods and to reveal truth. I try to do the same, I rebel against those who present falsehoods as being true and I rebel against those who try to cover up truths. Hence, rebel_rebel! I briefly read through the article from the link that you sent. However, I am not that into E. G. White. Whatever she or anyone says that is in accordance to the word of truth then I say, HalleluYah! However, anything that she or anyone else says that is not in accordance to the word of truth then it is the word of truth that must be followed.

Yahweh bless you in your search for the truth.


----- Original Message -----

From: Blank (name withheld)


Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 2:29 PM

Subject: [mikesbiblestudyclass] A question for Ron


The evidence that Church is in Apostasy is overwhelming, but the evidence that the church has become Babylon is lacking. We have never had the prophecy concerning Babylon applied to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, or been informed that the "loud cry" consisted in calling God's people to come out of her; for this is not God's plan concerning Israel. {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 12}

You say that Ellen White says the church has become Babylon She says "There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be". -2SM 63, 68, 69 (1893)

If Sister White says that there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be then how is it that you have found such evidence?

Ron responds:

Blank, In 1893, the date of your statement, there was not the least evidence that such a thing would be. The 2SM quote is taken from the letter Ellen White wrote to Caldwell and Stanton, denouncing them for calling the church Babylon. That letter is found in Review and Herald Articles, Vol. 6, p. 513. The reason that AT THAT TIME, there was not the least evidence that such a thing would be, is because Ellen White states in that article that the church was AT THE TIME heeding the Laodicean Message and keeping the commandments of God. Surely, it was gross error to call such a church Babylon. But Ellen White says that is deciphering her writings we are to consider TIME, PLACE AND CIRCUMSTANCE.

Just a friendly question. Is it not church bashing to say the SDA church is in apostasy? Apostasy is error, confusion. Babylon means error--confusion. You commit an oxymoron by admitting that the church is in serious apostasy but is not Babylon!

Also, if it is in apostasy, why is it church bashing to point out how and why it is in apostasy and that it is now a sister to fallen Babylon? Should the House of Jacob be shown its sins? Is it church bashing to fulfill Isaiah 58:1? Is it church bashing to label the fallen churches as fallen and call people out of them via the three angel's messages? Is it church bashing to call Rome and her daughters Babylon and fallen? Or is it okay to bash any other church other than the SDA church? Just curious.

Ron Beaulieu


I know all those statement by heart. But what about all the others which say that the church could become a cage of every unclean and hateful bird? All she meant dear brother is that at the time there was no evidence THAT SHE SAW OR UNDERSTOOD that the church could become Babylon, but her own statements on the possibility that the church could become the cage of every unclean and hateful bird show that she changed her mind, and it is a good thing she did because there is scriptural evidence in Ezekiel 5 and 9 to show that only a remnant will escape the SDA church militant before it is destroyed in an antitypical fulfillment of the PREFIGURE TYPE of A.D. 70, and all that according to Ellen White.

It is not a matter of Ron Beaulieu DARING to call the church Babylon. It is a matter of Ellen White and Scripture spelling out conditions under which the SDA church MILITANT, not the SDA church Triumphant, could become Babylon, the cage of every unclean and hateful bird. My interpretation is as solid as Ezekiel 5 and 9, as well as Ellen White PREFIGURE statement and the one saying that Ezekiel 9 will be literally fulfilled again in the SDA church.

What you cannot deny is that the SDA church militant will be destroyed after a remnant escapes, just as in the prefigure type of A.D. 70. You will have to deny Ezekiel to do that. But that is your privilege. Before A.D. 70, Christ called the apostate Jewish church the Synagogue of Satan and said they were of their father the devil. So the antitypical fulfillment of the PREFIGURE TYPE will be the Synagogue of Satan, AND THAT SYNAGOGUE IS BABYLON, any which way you slice it. I'm on rock here and as solid as rock gets, for that rock is Ezekiel 5 and 9, with Ezekiel 5:9 proving the end-time context of both chapters, 5 and 9.

Ron Beaulieu

----- Original Message -----

From: Blank


Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 2:56 PM

Subject: Re: [mikesbiblestudyclass] Re: What Constitutes Babylon According to Ellen White

Ron says :

"Then she gives a number of statements that state conditions under which the church would and thus could become the cage of every unclean and hateful bird--language strictly used to define Babylon in Revelation 18."

How dare mortal man pass his judgment upon them, and call the church a harlot, Babylon, a den of thieves, a cage of every unclean and hateful bird, the habitation of devils, making the nations drunk with the wine of her fornication, confederating with the kings and great men of the earth, waxing rich through the abundance of her delicacies, and proclaiming that her sins have reached unto heaven and God hath remembered her iniquities?

Is this the message we have to bear to Seventh-day Adventists? I tell you No! God has given no man any such message. Let these men humble their hearts before God, and in true contrition repent that they have even for a time stood by the side of the accuser of the brethren who accused them before God day and night. . . .
{RH, November 8, 1956 par. 17}.

Ron responds: Blank’s interpretation of his quotes (above and below) in his post to me makes Ellen White contradict herself. Blank quotes me as saying that Ellen White gives a number of statements that state conditions under which the church would and thus could become the cage of every unclean and hateful bird--language strictly used to define Babylon in Revelation 18, and then he implies that his quotes from her deny that any such eventuality would ever ensue. If he is correct in his interpretation, he only makes Ellen White out as a self-contradictory, false prophet.

Blank's comments continued:

If God has not given any man such a message then why do you proclaim such a message?

It seems almost impossible that anyone who had a genuine experience in the faith should suggest such erroneous applications of Scripture as applicable to God's commandment-keeping people. Supposing this spurious message is the one everyone must hear for this time, "Come out of her, my people," where shall we go to? Where shall we find the purity, goodness, and holiness where we shall be secure? Where is the fold where no wolves will enter? {RH, November 8, 1956 par. 18}

Ron responds: Wolves entered Christ's church. Judas was one of them. But that did not prevent Christ from gathering out from the apostate Jewish church those who would take the gospel to the world. Notice:

"The Sanhedrin had rejected Christ's message and was bent upon His death; therefore Jesus departed from Jerusalem, from the priests, the temple, the religious leaders, the people who had been instructed in the law, and turned to another class to proclaim His message, and to gather out those who should carry the gospel to all nations. As the light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeeding generation. Again and again the history of Christ's withdrawal from Judea has been repeated. When the Reformers preached the word of God, they had no thought of separating themselves from the established church; but the religious leaders would not tolerate the light, and those that bore it were forced to seek another class, who were longing for the truth. In our day few of the professed followers of the Reformers are actuated by their spirit. Few are listening for the voice of God, and ready to accept truth in whatever guise it may be presented. Often those who follow in the steps of the Reformers are forced to turn away from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the word of God. And many times those who are seeking for light are by the same teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience." E.G. White, <I>Desire of Ages, p. 232.

"Christ was a protestant...The Reformers date back to Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the apostles." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 48, col. 2.

Where did they go? Where do we go? They formed home churches!

I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organized body through whom He will work. There may be more than a score of Judases among them; there may be a rash Peter who will under circumstances of trial deny his Lord; there may be persons represented by John whom Jesus loved, but he may have a zeal that would destroy men's lives by calling down fire from heaven upon them to revenge an insult to Christ and to the truth. But the great Teacher seeks to give lessons of instruction to correct these existing evils. He is doing the same today with His church. He is pointing out their dangers. He is presenting before them the Laodicean message. {RH, November 8, 1956 par. 19}.Ron's response: Were the home churches formed by Christ and His disciples AN ORGANIZED BODY? Did Christ use them to give the gospel to the then known world?

Scripture on Home Churches

Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Act 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Act 16:40 And they went out of the prison, and entered into [the house of] Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.

Act 18:7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain [man's] house, named Justus, [one] that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

Rom 16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my well beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1Cr 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1Cr 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

1Cr 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Ellen White on Home Churches

"There is a little hope in one direction: Take the young men and women, and place them where they will come as little in contact with our churches as possible, that the low grade of piety which is current in this day shall not leaven their ideas of what it means to be a Christian." E.G. White, Manuscript Release #995, p. 5.

When the young men and women were kept away from the Alpha of apostasy in the church, what did they do; where did they meet for worship?

"Brother and sister Haskell have rented a house in one of the best parts of the city, and have gathered round them a family of helpers, who day by day go out giving Bible readings, selling our papers, and doing medical missionary work. During the hour of worship, the workers relate their experiences. Bible studies are regularly conducted in the home, and THE YOUNG MEN AND YOUNG WOMEN connected with the mission receive a practical, thorough training in holding Bible readings and in selling our publications. The Lord has blessed their labors, a number have embraced the truth, and many others are deeply interested." Review and Herald, September 7, 1905, Evangelism, p. 108.

"There is a little hope in one direction: Take the young men and women, and place them where they will come as little in contact with our churches as possible, that the low grade of piety which is current in this day shall not leaven their ideas of what it means to be a Christian." E.G. White, Manuscript Release #995, p. 5.

When the young men and women were kept away from the Alpha of apostasy in the church, what did they do; where did they meet for worship? Ellen White knew where to go at that time? She answered her own former question! Notice:

"Brother and sister Haskell have rented a house in one of the best parts of the city, and have gathered round them a family of helpers, who day by day go out giving Bible readings, selling our papers, and doing medical missionary work. During the hour of worship, the workers relate their experiences. Bible studies are regularly conducted in the home, and THE YOUNG MEN AND YOUNG WOMEN connected with the mission receive a practical, thorough training in holding Bible readings and in selling our publications. The Lord has blessed their labors, a number have embraced the truth, and many others are deeply interested." Review and Herald, September 7, 1905, Evangelism, p. 108.

The above scenario is the prescribed mode for the worship service of every Seventh-day Adventist church in Testimonies, vol. 7, pp. Notice:

"There are times when it is fitting for our ministers to give on the Sabbath, in our churches, short discourses, full of the life and love of Christ. But the church members are not to expect a sermon every Sabbath....Let the church members, during the week, act their part faithfully, and on the Sabbath relate their experience. The meeting will then be as meat in due season, bringing to all present new life and fresh vigor.. When God's people see the great need of working as Christ worked for the conversion of sinners, the testimonies borne by them in the Sabbath service will be filled with power. With joy the will tell of the precious experience they have gained in working for others." Testimonies, vol. 7, p. 19.

In spite of Blank’s presentation of Ellen White statements above, she still told how the church could become a sister to fallen Babylon. The church cannot join Babylon's Associations, Councils and Confederacies, help finance them by membership dues, and not be a part of fallen Babylon. God had not given any man such a message in 1893, because the church had made no such gross violations in 1893! But when the church has so erred, God will give men the warning message. True prophets will show the house of Jacob its sins.

The Real Cincher

For those with any spiritual discernment whatsoever, it should be clear as crystal from the following statement that a church which brings every uncouth thing into its campmeetings JUST BEFORE THE CLOSE OF PROBATION, is not the church the good will remain in:

"The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a bedlam of noise. This is an invention of Satan to cover up his ingenious methods for making of none effect the pure, sincere, elevating, ennobling, sanctifying truth for this time. Better never have the worship of God blended with music than to use musical instruments to do the work which last January was represented to me would be brought into our camp meetings. The truth for this time needs nothing of this kind in its work of converting souls. A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and pervert that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise, to have a carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirits working." Selected Messages, vol. 2, p. 36.

End of Part 4. Part 5 will follow.