Rob,
I am intimately aquatinted with all the E.G. White statements you sent me in the original message below. I fully agree with every one of them. I have always said that Christ was FULLY DIVINE and FULLY HUMAN, because He was sired by the ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT into the womb of Mary. I do not now, nor ever have taught that Jesus parted with Divinity. I have taught and do now teach that He parted with PURE DIVINITY ONLY. In other words: He is not now ONLY PURE DIVINITY. He is now PURE DIVINITY PLUS HUMANITY forever. He forfeited His pure divinity ONLY Being for us. He will never live again as ONLY a PURELY DIVINE person. But He is PURE DIVINITY combined with humanity. It was a sacrifice to give up PURE DIVINITY to be combined with humanity forever. That is all I am saying. The post Incarnated Son of God was sired by PURE DIVINITY, so He is Pure divinity, BUT NOT PURE DIVINITY ONLY. He is combined with humanity. I hope this "overworking" of the issue will make it clear to you, as to what I believe, whether or not you agree. What I am saying is that the Son PARTED with is His PURE DIVINITY ONLY state of Being, to have His pure divinity combined with humanity. That was a sacrifice. That is a sacrifice.
I teach that the Son "laid aside" His first estate existence (Being) in its PURE DIVINE ONLY STATE. In other words, when He took upon Himself humanity, He had more that a PURE DIVINE ONLY STATE, because He was then joined with humanity forever after. He was still FULLY DIVINE, but also FULLY HUMAN.
I have fully admitted that there are mysteries associated with the Incarnation that we do not understand, but I accept and believe Ellen White's many statements about a third person. It is obvious to me, even from a common sense observable stance, that the Son of God was a different person after the Incarnation in that He took upon Himself humanity FOREVER.
In the studies by Lynnford Beachy that you sent me Rob, he mentions Saul being changed into another person, and you do not think that strange. The Son of God became a different person by taking human nature upon Himself forever.
Concerning Jesus retaining everything in the grave, I am very aware of that statement by Ellen White, and I am also aware of the following statement in Scripture:
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
I am not suggesting that Ellen White and Scripture are contradictory here. I am suggesting there are factors we do not fully understand. I believe that something similar had to happen to the Son of God when He was Incarnated. What and where was He from the time He was Incarnated into Mary's womb, and all during her gestation, and all during His childhood. Where was the mature mind of the Son of God that has existed from everlasting?
I believe that there are too many valid questions none of us have the answer to, for any of us to become mean spirited and bigoted over this issue. I will merely take Scripture and Ellen White and try to harmonize both so that neither contradicts, and I believe that I am closer to that goal than are Beachy, Eldon, Allaback and others of your persuasion.
Rob, you and Martin have used Ellen White statements that you believe to support your position, but you still have not explained her many statements depicting a third person Holy Spirit. That is your prerogative, but I will strive to harmonize the Holy Spirit gift to the church with the Bible.
As Ellen White said, lest any of us become mean spirited over this issue: "The limited capacity of man cannot define this wonderful mystery--the blending of the two natures, the divine and the human. It can never be explained. Man must wonder and be silent. And yet man is privileged to be a partaker of the divine nature, and in this way he can to some degree enter into the mystery" (Letter 5, 1889). {7BC 904.5}
God bless,
Ron Beaulieu
----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Bond To:
Adventistsandthetrinity@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [Adventistsandthetrinity]
Hello
Ron,
Since you prefer to use SOP over the Scriptures, here are some SOP quotes that I think you should read.
"Laying aside his royal robe and kingly crown, Christ clothed his divinity with humanity, that human beings might be raised from their degradation, and placed on vantage-ground. Christ could not have come to this earth with the glory that he had in the heavenly courts. Sinful human beings could not have borne the sight. He veiled his divinity with the garb of humanity, but he did not part with his divinity. A divine-human Saviour, he came to stand at the head of the fallen race, to share in their experience from childhood to manhood. That human beings might be partakers of the divine nature, he came to this earth, and lived a life of perfect obedience". (RH 15-6-1905)
"Men are contaminated with sin, and they cannot have an adequate conception of the heinous character of the evil which they cherish. Because of sin, the Majesty of heaven was stricken, smitten of God and afflicted. Voluntarily our divine substitute bared his soul to the sword of justice, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life. Said Christ: "I lay down my life that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." No man of earth nor angel of heaven could have paid the penalty of sin. Jesus was the only one who could save rebellious man. In him divinity and humanity were combined, and this was what gave efficiency to the sacrifice made on Calvary's cross. Here it was that mercy and truth met together, righteousness and peace kissed each other". (RH 20-12 1892)
"The apostle would call our attention from ourselves to the Author of our salvation. He presents before us his two natures, divine and human. Here is the description of the divine: "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." He was "the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person."
Now, of the human: "He was made in the likeness of man: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death." He voluntarily assumed human nature. It was his own act, and by his own consent. He clothed his divinity with humanity. He was all the while as God, but he did not appear as God. He veiled the demonstrations of Deity which had commanded the homage, and called forth the admiration, of the universe of God. He was God while upon earth, but he divested himself of the form of God, and in its stead took the form and fashion of a man. He walked the earth as a man. For our sakes he became poor, that we through his poverty might be made rich. He laid aside his glory and his majesty. He was God, but the glories of the form of God he for a while relinquished." (RH 5-7-1887)
"(Col. 1:26, 27.) An Unexplainable Blending.--Christ could have done nothing during His earthly ministry in saving fallen man if the divine had not been blended with the human. The limited capacity of man cannot define this wonderful mystery--the blending of the two natures, the divine and the human. It can never be explained. Man must wonder and be silent. And yet man is privileged to be a partaker of the divine nature, and in this way he can to some degree enter into the mystery (Letter 5, 1889). {7BC 904.5}
"Cumbered with humanity Christ could not be in every place personally, therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them to go to His Father and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself, divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit." (Manuscript Releases Volume 14 (No's 1081-1135) MR No.1084
"Jesus said to Mary, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." When he closed his eyes in death upon the cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to Heaven, as many believe, or how could his words be true--"I am not yet ascended to my Father"? The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with his body, and did not wing its way to Heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with his body in the sepulcher; and when he came forth it was as a whole being; he did not have to summon his spirit from Heaven. He had power to lay down his life and to take it up again". (Vol. 3 Spirit of Prophecy page 203)
"But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness. The two expressions "human" and "divine" were, in Christ, closely and inseparably one, and yet they had a distinct individuality. Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His deity could not be lost while He stood faithful and true to His loyalty. Surrounded with sorrow, suffering, and moral pollution, despised and rejected by the people to whom had been intrusted the oracles of heaven, Jesus could yet speak of Himself as the Son of man in heaven. He was ready to take once more His divine glory when His work on earth was done." {5BC 1129.3}
With clearness and power Paul outlined before Agrippa the leading events connected with the life of Christ on earth. He testified that the Messiah of prophecy had already appeared in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. He showed how the Old Testament Scriptures had declared that the Messiah was to appear as a man among men, and how in the life of Jesus had been fulfilled every specification outlined by Moses and the prophets. For the purpose of redeeming a lost world, the divine Son of God had endured the cross, despising the shame, and had ascended to heaven triumphant over death and the grave. {AA 436.2}
God is in earnest with us and claims all the power of our being. We need the great Physician to heal us. We need more of heaven and less of self. We must be partakers of the divine nature. Oh, what love has been manifested for us! The divine Son of God left the throne of heaven and gave His life for us, and for our sakes became poor. He clothed His divinity with humanity. {3MR 75.2}
Ron Beaulieu wrote:
Rob,
I have read both of the studies by Beachy which you refer to and He does not deal with all the many statements Vance Ferrell has produced about the third person of the Godhead being the Holy Spirit. A third person is a third person is a third person. And Ellen White says that third person is as much a person as God is a person.
Ron Beaulieu
----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Beaulieu To:
Adventistsandthetrinity@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [Adventistsandthetrinity] Hello
Rob,
I would like to direct you to the MANY Ellen G. White statements regarding the Holy Spirit as being a third person. I have directed you to those statements, and you seem to prefer Brother Beachy to Ellen White. That is cause for great concern to me.
Ron Beaulieu
----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Bond To:
Adventistsandthetrinity@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [Adventistsandthetrinity] Hello
Ron,
I would also like to direct you to a couple of articles by Brother Lynnford Beachy about the Holy Spirit. His studies are in line with my convictions on this topic.
The Holy Spirit of God
www.geocities.com/sabbathkeeper0828/trinity/TheHolySpiritOfGod.pdf
More on the Holy Spirit
www.geocities.com/sabbathkeeper0828/trinity/MoreontheHolySpirit.pdf
Rob Bond wrote:
Ron,
From my studies I have come to believe that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit that comes to us through His Son. I believe that the Father and Son share the same Spirit, i.e.(mind, character, personality, will, etc.), that they dwell with us and in us through Their Spirit, that they give us Divine power through Their Spirit, and that They lead us in to all truth through Their Spirit. I believe that the Father and Son's Spirit is Holy, because they are Holy.
I hope this answers your question Ron. I am kind of puzzeled as to why you are so interested in my convictions on God's Spirit....Rob Bond
P.S. Here are some Scripture references that I base my belief on:
John 4:23, 24; 14:16-18, 23, 26; Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 3:16; 2 Cor. 3:13-18; Gal. 4:6
Ron Beaulieu wrote:
Rob,
Just for clarification, who do you believe the Holy Spirit to be? Or let's put it this way: What do you believe the Holy Spirit to be?
Ron B.
----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Bond To:
Adventistsandthetrinity@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Adventistsandthetrinity] Hello
Hi Ron,
Those are easy questions.
1. Jesus without the encumberances of humanity upon Him.
2. Again the answer is Jesus.
Rob Bond
Ron Beaulieu wrote:
Rob,
When Christ says that He will send "Another Comforter," John 14:16-18, which we know is the Holy Spirit, even the Spirit of truth, verse 17, and then says in verse 18: "I will come to you."
Questions:
1. Who comes to us?
2. Who is the Spirit of truth? Who is the way, the life and the truth, according to Scripture?
Ron Beaulieu
----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Bond To: Adventists and the trinity group
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 10:16 AM Subject: [Adventistsandthetrinity] Hello
Hello and God bless,
My name is Rob Bond and I live in Raleigh, NC. I am glad to be a part of your group, and so very glad that the Father led me to you.
I am a baptized Adventist of 16 years and have just within the last two years come to my new convictions on what the pioneers taught about the Godhead. I have tried sharing this with people in church, but they either ignore it or look at me as if I am crazy. I go to the Raleigh SDA church by the way. I have a new website that I would like to invite you all to. Please stop by and check it out, and please sign my guest book while you are there. Brothers Allen Stump, and Lynnford Beachy, and Sister Esther McDaniel at Smyrna and Present Truth have been wonderful support for me over the past couple of years, and now I hope I have found a new family here. My web site address is www.geocities.com/bondr006/Rob1.html
Hope to hear from you all soon....God bless....Rob Bond
http://www.geocities.com/bondr006/Rob1.html
Please visit my new website at:
www.geocities.com/bondr006/Rob1.html
"The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the skies announce what His hands
have made."
Psalm 19:1