Dear Reader,
What follows is a discussion with an SDA pastor concerning the existence of the Holy Spirit as a third person in the Old Testament. The pastor feels that because the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the Old Testament, this necessarily refers to a third person Holy Spirit existing prior to the Incarnation of the Son. As this document deals with more than one dialogue with the pastor, some repetitive overlappings are necessary to the articulation of each response.
The pastor is of the notion that since the Old Testament mentions the Holy Spirit, that this proves that the Holy Spirit existed then as a third, distinct person from the ONE, ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, before the Incarnation of Christ. The Holy Spirit certainly existed eternally with the Father and the Son, but not as a distinct, third person, until the Son died to His original life at His Incarnation, and gave it to us as the greatest of all gifts that He could bestow upon sinful men who would repent.
I have no problem with the term third person of the Godhead (AS IT EXISTS AFTER THE INCARNATION IN THE FORM OF THE GHOST OF THE SON'S ORIGINAL LIFE). It is when that third person of the Godhead (BECOMING A THIRD PERSON AFTER THE INCARNATION OF CHRIST) assumed a third person and became a successor to Christ in the earth that becomes an issue with some. In a sense, the third person of the Godhead did exist from the foundation of the earth, because the Lamb, in symbol, was slain from the foundation of the earth, when the Son agreed to give His life for sinning man, and again literally at the Incarnation, and again on the Cross.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
It was in this sense that I was considering that the innate ONE ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT common to both the Father and the Son, was a third person from eternity, and given what I was considering, I was and am correct. I could have said it more completely but I thought this was not necessary since I had said it ALL before, even yesterday on this forum. I did quote Rev. 13:8 yesterday, but it is possible that you did not read that post before you replied to this one. I thus make an effort to give you some benefit of the doubt. You never do the same for me.
I took it as a given that you understood my position as stated above because I said it so many times in the past. I did not think that I had to be so precise every time I stated such. I will be in the future, since you choose to capitalize in a negative way, on what you know that I believe and teach.
All Isaiah 48:12-16 proves is what I have attested to all along--that the ONE, ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT, innate to the Father and the Son, has existed as their essence since eternity. God is Spirit. that is all that is proved by Isaiah 48:12-16. There is no mention of a third person.
"Come near to me, and listen to this; from the beginning I have not spoken in secrets; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the LORD JEHOVAH has sent me, and His Spirit."
Of course the LORD JEHOVAH sent the Son and His Spirit. I have taught and believed that the Son and His Spirit was the same Spirit as the ONE, ETERNAL, HOLY SPIRIT innate to both the Father and the Son, and this verse proves such when it says "...THE LORD JEHOVAH sent the Son and His Spirit." Who's Spirit? The Father's Spirit. The same ONE, ETERNAL SPIRIT that was common to the Godhead, because God is Spirit. I have used that very verse will others that are similar, in arguments with Jehovah Witnesses over the Divinity of the Son.
Pastor, you say: "However, there is more: the Holy Spirit is a PERSON in the Old Testament -- "When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the SPIRIT OF THE LORD shall lift up a standard against him." [Isaiah 59:19] Notice WHO it is who lifts up a standard against the enemies of God's people."
Pastor, you really demonstrate more than your having a linguistic problem. You demonstrate a complete lack of understanding. I fully admit and have always admitted that the Lord has a Spirit, as does the Father. I have consistently taught that they both are spirit, and either could lift up a standard against anyone. That Spirit is the ONE, ETERNAL SPIRIT, that is common to both the Father and the Son, because God is Spirit. You have not proven a third person. You have proven that the Spirit of God and the Father is capable of acting. I would never deny that, for without their innate Spirit, their very essence of Being, they could do nothing; they would not be God, because God is Spirit.
Isaiah 40:13-14 --"Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being HIS counsellor hath taught HIM? With whom took HE counsel, and who instructed HIM, and taught HIM in the path of judgment, and taught HIM knowledge, and shewed to HIM the way of understanding? Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold HE taketh up the isles as a very little thing.... All nations before HIM are as nothing; and they are counted to HIM less than nothing, and vanity."
Notice who the personal pronouns directly refer to: The Spirit of the Lord--His ONE, ETERNAL, INNATE HOLY SPIRIT, common to the Lord and the Father. All this verse proves is that without the Spirit of the Lord, THE ONE, ETERNAL SPIRIT, the knowing and discerning part of the Godhead, did not need to be directed, counseled or taught. All nations are as a drop of a bucket and small dust (Nothing at all) compared to the Spirit of the Lord. As stated, the Godhead (The Father and the Son) would know nothing without their common Spirit essence, because God is Spirit, and nothing is to be compared to that ALL KNOWING (OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT) SPIRIT.
There is not the slightest indication that these verses even hint at three persons. All that can possibly be proven by these verses is that the Father and the Son have a Spirit, and I have never questioned that. They have ONE, ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT, for God is a SPIRIT, and Scripture plainly states that there is ONE SPIRIT. Any "third person" Spirit, in addition to the ONE, ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT, would be just that: Another Spirit, another person. The so-called Fathers, interpolated that third person into the Old Testament, when it was found that a third person did indeed exist in the New Testament as a result of Jesus giving up His original life, breath and soul Spirit for us. This was their great mistake which demonstrates how bereft of understanding any ecumenical counsel of errant ecclesiastical leaders are. Isaiah 56:10-12, applied in the day of the Nicene Creed also!
For anyone, such as Dave Sutherland, to think that you have the upper hand because of such foolish profferings, is merely an indication of complete lack of understanding and spiritual discernment as prophesied in Isaiah 56:10-12, and as re-applied by Ellen White in Testimonies, vol. 5, 211.
Second Dialogue
Pastor,
Thank you. You prove what I have said about the ONE, ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT. You prove that the Son Created all things by the Spirit of the Father. Then you prove that the ONE, ETERNAL HOLY SPIRIT, common to both the Father and the Son, CAN GIVE LIFE AND BREATH. That occurred when Adam and Eve were made. Thus, the Father, the Son, and their innate ONE, ETERNAL AND HOLY SPIRIT, created all things. This I do not deny, but this DOES NOT prove a third person. This rather serves to prove that the Father and the Son are invested with their ONE, ETERNAL AND HOLY SPIRIT, THEIR ESSENCE, without which they would not be God, because God is Spirit. This is ALL you have proven. Anything more or less is an interpolation by you and the church "fathers," to whom Isaiah 56:10-12 abundantly applies and applied.
"Neither the Bible, nor Ellen White, claim that the SON is the "SOLE CREATOR". No, Hebrews 1:1-3 tells us that the Father created all things THROUGH THE SON. Also, the Bible reveals that the Holy Spirit was as much active in Creation as was the Father and the Son -- "The SPIRIT OF GOD has made me, and the breath of the Almighty has given me life." (Job 33:4).
I fully agree that "All things were come to us FROM the Father BY the Son THROUGH the Holy Spirit." That Holy Spirit was innate to the Father and the Son before the Son gave up His purely Divine original life at His Incarnation to become another form of Being. This act satisfied at least three most important purposes:
* It proved Satan wrong that the Godhead was not self-sacrificing.
* It proved that the Son gave us His life as a regenerating agency, without which His death on the Cross would have been to no avail.
* This proved that we can partake of the Divine Nature (not the admixed Divine--Human Nature) of the Son, which He possessed before the Incarnation, as an aid to regenerating the mind back to the character and image of God.
The trinity doctrine totally denies that Christ sacrificed His Original life as a gift to bestow on us, for the three purposes enumerated above. This nullifies the Atonement; the Sanctuary Service which demanded the PERMANENT death of the Lamb (death to that first estate of Being the Lamb had prior to the Incarnation). Thus, Ellen White saw the Sanctuary GONE; the Atonement GONE. Thus, we have the Omega of Heresies, that were to involve the presence and personality of Christ, Selected Messages, vol. 1, 202. For ONLY by the above scenario of what occurred at His Incarnation, can we partake of the presence and personality of the Son and His Mind, by partaking of His Divine Nature. This was the gift He proffered by His Incarnation, and without that gift, His death on the Cross was to no avail:
"The Spirit was given as a regenerating agency, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail." E.G. White, Review and Herald, May 19, 1904, The Promise of the Spirit, pr. 3,
If Christ did not give us His very innate Holy Spirit--His very life, breath and soul, then His blood was spilled on the Cross for naught. It is because of this living fact James, that I totally reject your interpretation of the following statements by Ellen White, which were left out of the equation of the Godhead, by LeRoy Froom and Roy Alan Anderson, and all SDA leaders, when accepting the trinity heresy, the Omega Heresy:
"Christ declared that after His ascension, he would send to his church, as his crowning GIFT, the comforter, who is the Holy Spirit,--THE SOUL OF HIS LIFE, THE EFFICACY OF HIS CHURCH, THE LIGHT AND LIFE OF THE WORLD. With HIS SPIRIT Christ sends a reconciling influence and a power that takes away sin. In the gift of the Spirit, [HIS LIFE--THE SOUL OF HIS LIFE] Jesus gave to man the highest good that heaven could bestow." E.G. White, Review and Herald, May 19, 1904. Book 5, p. 42.
"The Holy Spirit is the breath of spiritual life in the soul. The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ. It imbues the receiver with the attributes of Christ. Only those who are thus taught of God, those who possess the inward working of the Spirit, and in whose life the Christ-life is manifested, are to stand as representative men, to minister in behalf of the church." Desire of Ages, 805.
Ron Beaulieu