Internet Discussion on the Godhead #1

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Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: [SDAIssues] Re: Fw: Trent & Protestantism (20)b, predestination

Ah yes! Well this is where I am out of my league. This Trinity nonsense.
I don't accept it because it makes Yashua a total imbecile. As I said in a
former post, Yashua was standing right there in front of the people when he
said "ye have not seen God or heard his voice" (paraphrased). A really dumb
thing to say if he is God. Sorry about my conclusion re Paul. I lost track
of who said what. It was Bob (I think) who claims God speaks to him all the
time and he doesn't need Scripture. I do hope you accept my apology.


----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Beaulieu
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: [SDAIssues] Re: Fw: Trent & Protestantism (20)b, predestination
God instructed us to worship no other God and then instructed us to worship Jesus. Was He instructing us to worship another God, or One who was of the same ONE ETERNAL SPIRIT?
Ron Beaulieu
From: Janine Jones




I would stress again that if God is Spirit and the Father and Son share the same ONE ETERNAL SPIRIT, they must both, of necessity, be God.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Man may partake of the Spirit of God, but he is not THE SPIRIT OF GOD in essence and substance. Christ was.

Ron Beaulieu


----- Original Message -----
From: Janine Jones
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: [SDAIssues] Re: Fw: Trent & Protestantism (20)b, predestination
Ron, I am not very familiar with this worship issue so I can only give an opinion here. I believe God is able to bestow honor and glory on whomsoever he pleases. His son is surely deserving of this honor after his sojourn on earth. They do share the same spirit Ron. I have always understood this. I wonder if you could give a lesson on worshipping Yashua. It would be edifying.
Shabbat Shalom

Who Should We Worship as God?

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Dear Reader,

The following abusive retort was made on an SDA Internet chat group in response to my document entitled: The Composite God Manifested in Three Persons. The retort was made by a man named Mickey, who was a Catholic convert to Seventh-day Adventism, but has now apostated from Adventism. He now denounces Ellen G. White as a false prophet and regularly casts such dispersions against her as he does against me in this document.. I am reproducing Mickey's response in its entirety so you can see what you may someday suffer for believing and teaching the Jesus Christ is very God and is to be worshipped as God. My responses will be interspersed under each of his retorts:

"This presentation of falsehood is up there with the most ridiculous that sinful man can imagine. Ron teaches that the one God is composite. He even stoops lower than a snake's belly and chooses a well known interpolation (1 John 5:7) in the Scriptures which no reputable theologian even touches to prove their three deities. Interesting though that God HIMSELF never defines HIMSELF in such a manner. Let's see how Jesus, God's Son refers to God. Christ ought to well know, after all, He is the Son of God:

Ron Responds: Mickey is lying. Try to find 1 John 5:7 in my document. Let it be known to all that I believe we should worship the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for they are all ONE GOD.

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Ron responds: How should Matthew 4:10 and the following verses be interpreted? Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:

Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Now what do we do with the following verses:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16.

"...awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity...Titus 2:13-14.

Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found [him], bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.

Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Zep 1:5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship [and] that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;

Act 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices [by the space of] forty years in the wilderness?

Further, I am citing the following treatise on the Divinity of Christ, which I took from the Internet. I do not endorse the parts endorsing the Trinity doctrine, but the parts on the Godhead of Christ are important and Scriptural.

For most Catholic Christians, Christ's divinity is taken for granted. Today, however, this belief is being challenged, attacked and denied on several fronts. Jehovah Witnesses claim that Jesus was merely Michael the Archangel in human form, while Mormons reduce His divinity by claiming that everyone can be a god. Most cults also deny that Christ is God. Even some theologians seriously challenge this traditional belief. Others claim that Jesus was unaware of His divinity until after His Resurrection.

Assuming that the Gospels are at least historically reliable, Jesus many times claims to be someone quite special. In Mark 2:28, Jesus claims to be the Lord of the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10). He also claims to be greater than the Prophet Jonah (Matt 12:41), King Solomon (Matt 12:42) and even the Temple (Matt 12:6). According to Mark 2:1-12, Jesus claims authority to forgive sins and performs a miraculous cure to prove it. The scribes are angered because they believe that only God has the authority to forgive sins. These claims are quite extraordinary for someone who is "humble in heart." [Matt 11:29]

Jesus, while arguing with the scribes, makes an interesting statement about Himself and Abraham:

Jesus answered them: "I solemnly declare it: before Abraham came to be, I AM." At that they picked up rocks to throw at Jesus... [John 8:58-59; NAB]

Jesus claims to have existed also before Abraham - something impossible for a mere human. Moreover the statement sounds grammatically awkward due to tense disagreement. It would sound better if He had said "I WAS" instead of "I AM." The present tense implies Christ's eternal existence as God.

Even though Jesus does not explicitly call Himself "God", He does refer to Himself with a form of God's name. The full meaning of His statement in John 8:58 is best understood in connection with Exodus 3:14. In Exodus God reveals His name to Moses:

God replied, "I AM WHO AM." Then He added, "This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you." [Exodus 3:14; NAB]

God's name - YHWH (Yahweh) - translates as "I AM WHO AM" or simply "I AM." In John 8:24 & 58, Jesus is referring to Himself with God's name. The scribes understand Him as such and respond by throwing rocks at Him. They wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy - referring to Himself as God (John 5:18).

Other people in the Gospels also bear witness to His divinity. Even before His birth, He is referred to as Lord. Inspired by the Holy Spirit, Elizabeth greets the pregnant Mary:

"But who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" [Luke 1:43; NAB]

Elizabeth refers to Mary as "the mother of my Lord." Elsewhere in Luke 1, the title "Lord" refers to God, e.g. "an angel of the Lord" [Luke 1:11]. It should be noted that the name YHWH, being too sacred, could not be uttered, so the Hebrews said "Lord" instead. This passage in Luke suggests that Jesus was God while in the womb of Mary. Also when Jesus was an infant, the wise men worshipped Him according to Matthew 2:11. If the Christ Child were not divine, then this Gospel passage would present idolatry in a positive light. Later Jesus even allows people to worship-adore Him, as in John 9: 38. Finally after the Resurrection, Thomas greets Jesus as "My Lord and my God." [John 20:28; cf. Ps 35:23] Jesus confirms this greeting without any hesitation, objection or correction. As a teacher Jesus would be obliged to correct an error, especially a blasphemous error.

According to secular reports, the 2nd-century Christians worshipped Christ as God. Pagans mocked the early Christians for worshipping a crucified God. According to 2nd-century Roman graffiti discovered in 1856 on Palatine, a Christian is caricatured as praying to a crucified figure. Its caption reads, "Alexamenos worships his god." In 111 A.D. Pliny the Younger wrote in a letter to Emperor Trajan about Christians: was their habit on a fixed day to assemble before daylight and recite by turn a form of words to Christ as a god." [Pliny, Epistle 97]

At least to the 2nd-century pagans, it appeared that Christians considered Jesus as their God.

Some may object to Christ's divinity and cite Bible verses pertaining to His humanity, e.g.:

...there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. [1 Tim 2:5]

Now it must be understood that Jesus Christ is also human. This mystery is called the Incarnation - God becoming man (Gal 4:4). As St. Paul writes:

In Christ the fullness of Deity resides in bodily form. [Col 2:9; NAB]

According to the Tome of Leo as proclaimed during the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D., Jesus is a divine Person with two natures: a divine nature and a human nature. Christ is both God and man.

Others may object to Christ's divinity and point to Gospel passages that show His lack of knowledge. According to them, the all-knowing God would not need to ask the crowd, "Who touched my garments?" [Mark 5:30] or during the raising of Lazarus, to ask Mary, "Where have you laid him?" [John 11:34] In reply to their objection, it should be noted that these are rhetorical questions and do not prove Christ's ignorance. God the Father does not show ignorance when He asks Adam, "Where are you?" [Gen 3:9] or Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" [Gen 4:9] These questions are meant to draw a response from the people. A teacher may ask his students questions not out of ignorance but in order to test or teach them a lesson.

Now a more troublesome verse concerns Christ's knowledge of Judgement Day:>

"But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son but only the Father." [Mark 13:32; RSV]

Bishop Richard Challoner responds to this verse in a footnote in the Douay-Rheims Bible:

Nor the Son. Not that the Son of God is absolutely ignorant of the day of judgement, but that He knoweth it not, as our teacher; that is He knoweth it not so as to teach it to us, as not being expedient.

In other words Christ knew the Day but was not commissioned to tell us. Some early Church fathers responded by claiming that Christ knew the Day but not through His humanity. For those who are interested, this and other difficult verses are discussed in detail in the book, The Consciousness of Christ by Fr. William G. Most (Front Royal, VA; Christendom College Press, 1980).

Still some may object to Christ's divinity claiming that there is only one God - God the Father. Now it is true that there is only one God; however, God is also Holy Trinity: " the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." [Matt 28:19] The Trinity is three Persons in one God, and not three gods. Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Holy Trinity - God the Son. According to the Bible, "God is love" [1 John 4:16] but for love to be real, it must be between two or more persons. God the Father and God the Son, being two Persons in one divine nature (John 10:30), love each other. This love is so real that it is the third Person - God the Holy Spirit. This is analogous to the love between husband and wife that results in a child (but of course devoid of time and sex). A good discussion on the Trinity can be found in the book, Theology for Beginners by Frank J. Sheed (Ann Arbor, MI; Servant Books, 1981).

In the Gospel Jesus claims to be an extraordinarily great person yet also humble. Jesus also claims the authority to forgive sins -offenses against God. He claims to be "I AM" -a form of God's name (John 8:24 & 58). The scribes are angered by His claims, seeing them as blasphemy (John 5:18; 10:30). According to the Gospel, even the demons (Mark 1:27) and the weather (Mark 4:41) obey Him. The several references in the Gospel to Christ's human weaknesses do not necessarily void His divinity but are a mystery contained in His Incarnation. As St. John writes: "In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was God...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." [John 1:1,14]

Mickey's Retort (Continued)

Matthew 5:34-35 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Matthew 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Luke 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Now, the Bible makes it extremely plain that Jesus' mission in this world besides dying for sin was to declare the truth about GOD!

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Now, this Scripture verse above testifies to TWO very important special truths about God. 1.)God is a SINGULAR "HIM", as is testified so explicitly in the rest of the 13 verses above, and 2.)God is identified as the FATHER, which is in harmony with several other Biblical verses scattered throughout the NT.

Now, did Ron's lying testimony cite 14 Scriptures recording the very words of Christ Himself stating that God is a COMPOSITE of THREE divine beings??? NO! This is coming from the contaminated fountain springs of Ron's head! Jesus refers to the ONE GOD as a SINGULAR "HE" in EVERY and ALL circumstances! NOT even ONE TIME does Christ refer to God as a COMPOSITE of THREE separate deities. This is merely Ron's DELUSION that he's so desperately trying to pass on to the forum.

Ron contradicts the Scriptures. He directly contradicts the harmonious words of Jesus Christ who preaches a contrary message to Ron. How can one believe that God is a composite of three deities when Christ ALWAYS refers to God as one singular being who is His Father???

Ron, your theology has been singularly CHECKMATED, HUMILIATED, and DECIMATED!

You CANNOT overthrow these Scriptures containing the very explicitly stated words of Christ Himself, the Son of the Living God who categorically and unequivocally defines the one God as a SINGULAR divine being who is His Father and NOT this COMPOSITE monstrosity that you have been trying to palm off.

Ron, what strong witches brew are you drinking or what superb herb are you smoking that is producing these warped visions of yours?

Your lying testimony is quite sickening, Ron. You know NOTHING about the God of the Bible. Your head is too tightly wound up in the apron of Ellen White and in your own distorted visions.

I want for God to bless you but how can I rightly ask Him


Ron Responds further: Who is the King of Kings? Who is the Lord of hosts in the following verses?

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

1Cr 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Lexicon Results for tsaba' (Strong's 06635) Hebrew for host 06635

Pronunciation Guide tsaba' {tsaw-baw'} or (fem.) ts@ba'ah {tseb-aw-aw'} TWOT Reference Root Word TWOT - 1865a,1865b from 06633 Part of Speech n m Outline of Biblical Usage

1) that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host

a) army, host

1) host (of organised army)

2) host (of angels)

3) of sun, moon, and stars

4) of whole creation

b) war, warfare, service, go out to war

c) service

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count - Total: 485 AV - host 393, war 41, army 29, battle 5, service 5, appointed time 3, warfare 2, soldiers 1, company 1, misc 5; 485

Ron Beaulieu