Exegesis Versus Eisegesis

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Forum and Karl,

It is not the least semblance of Bible harmony and seeking of pure truth in any doctrinal matter for anyone to pick and choose between one or the other following two verses a to build a Bible based gospel on either one. It is not proper hermeneutics, exegesis. In this case, it is Karl's and mainline Christianity's own eisegesis interpretation. By such methodology one could arrive at just about any belief concerning any Biblical passage and indeed this situation has accrued in the world because of eisegesis interpretation of the Scriptures:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

All Karl Wagner has presented to this forum thus far, is his personal opinion eisegesis of Romans 3:28. He has not interpreted it by exegesis of both Rom. 3:28 and James 2:24, so neither contradicts. Thus, he reads into Rom. 3:28, interpreting according to his own ideas just as mainline Christianity chooses to do. This is not honest Bible study endeavor and no truth can ever be reckoned from such a methodology of Bible study.

Main Entry: eis·ege·sis javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?eisege01.wav=eisegesis')javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?eisege01.wav=eisegesis')
Pronunciation: "I-s&-'jE-s&s, 'I-s&-"
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural eis·ege·ses javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?eisege02.wav=eisegeses')javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?eisege02.wav=eisegeses')/-"sEz/
Etymology: Greek eis into (akin to Greek en in) + English exegesis -- more at IN
: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas -- compare EXEGESIS. Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary.

Karl stated:

As I have pointed out numerous times, you believe and teach the doctrine of the Nicolaitans that salvation comes by faith (mental assent) alone and not by works as well. James says that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone. How do you reconcile Paul with James on this issue of faith and works? So far, you have not reconciled the issue. You have picked and chosen Paul's version and interpreted it to make even Paul contradict himself when he says that God is the author of salvation unto all who OBEY Him. Is this grace (faith) plus nothing? Again, Janine and I have both asked: If we are saved solely by faith alone, then why are we judged by our works?

Karl,

You have even appeared to agree with me at times that obedience accompanies justification by saying that you doubt if justification accrues without sanctification. But you vacillate Karl and accuse me of something I am not saying, by telling me that I am teaching obedience BEFORE justification. No Karl. Please get this straight ONCE AND FOREVER: I believe and teach that obedience ACCOMPANIES JUSTIFICATION. The obedience that ACCOMPANIES JUSTIFICATION also justifies (saves) a man. I agree with James of Scripture, not Catholicism. However, if indeed the Catholics believe and teach James 2:24, then I agree with them on that particular point.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Whenever and wherever Paul says we are not saved by works but by the gift of grace, in order to be interpreted so that he is not made to contradict himself, we must conclude that he was teaching the Jews that they were not saved (justified) by works of their own, but it was all a gift of grace which includes pardon for sins we can do nothing about (sins past) and grace for obedience in the future. You do love to neglect the grace for obedience part of the gift Karl. You and millions of other professing Christians. You thus turn the power of grace for obedience into lasciviousness, saying that obedience is not essential for salvation but comes later as a fruit. This puts subjects into a laxidaisical attitude about sin--a lukewarm attitude if you will, and that accounts for the attitude of Laodicea, because she believe she is in a saved state without obedience as an accompanying aspect of justification. When I say obedience is a requisite for justification, I mean it must accompany justification as true repentance.

Karl,

Can we get a very important item straight between us? You said:

"From my understanding Ron is teaching that salvation is dependent
on God's grace NUMBER ONE, combined with our belief, our faith, and
our obedience (works).

Karl responds: Ron is teaching that. He is wrong."

Ron responds:

• How many times have I said that we are not saved by OUR OBEDIENCE--OUR WORKS because they are empowered by Christ--lest any man should boast? How could man boast of such works?
• If Faith is a gift of grace, how is it OUR FAITH.
• If belief is a gift of grace, how is it OUR BELIEF?

Ron teaches that when one motivated by self-sacrificing love, surrenders the will to Christ and minds the things of the Spirit versus the things of the flesh, then and then only, he/she works the works of Christ, which works are empowered by Christ, so how can any man boast of works--even these works of Christ in the life, which constitute sanctification and count toward salvation because He is the author of salvation unto all who obey Him.

From: Karl

To: SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com

--- In SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com, "Sea" <seawife@a...> wrote:
> First, I KNOW that Jesus IS our salvation and we CANNOT earn
salvation through our own works. Had Jesus not died no amount of
works could save us. However, he did die. So is that enough?
Absolutely! IF WE MEET THE CONDITIONS ATTACHED TO THE PROMISE.
According to the questionable interpretation of certain passages
accorded to the Apostle Paul we are saved by faith OUTSIDE of
works. Hence, ALL are saved and works mean nothing. With such
interpretation the words of the Saviour "not all who call on the
name of the Lord will be saved but those doing the will of the
Father" are negated along with "depart from me ye workers of
iniquity". Now Yeshua seems to be telling us soming totally
different to what mainstream "grace plus nothing" churches are
teaching. Now, I have listened to the "works follow faith argument"
and I agree. Yet I still have to question the need for works
following faith if we are saved by faith OUTSIDE of works. So
something has been misinterpretated here it seems. James teaches
that faith without works is a dead faith, and from this is can be
concluded that those who do not have works are toast. Therefore,
works have a great deal to do with salvation regardless of where
they come on the list. This will, of course, bring another cry
of "you're not listening Janine" but I am. Maybe too well. Having
said that, being judged according to our works sounds like a total
waste of time to me if we are saved by faith OUTSIDE of works. Why
judge according to our works? Maybe the churches would do well to
really fathom out what being saved by faith OUTSIDE of works
actually means.





BTW, by claiming Ron teaches obedience BEFORE salvation you appear
to be showing a "once saved always saved" mindset.

Karl reponds: That is what the Standish boys accused Sequira,
Weiland and Short of because they couldn't understand salvation by
grace thru faith alone.

Salvation doesn't happen until Yahshua returns and there are
many "faithers", "gracers", and "workers" living in an unsaved
condition.

Karl reponds: Salvation happens when we accept Christ. When Christ
comes, it is the eschatological consumation of the present reality
of our salvation.
When we accept Christ, we, right that moment pass from death to
life. "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we
love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death."
[1 John 3:14]. We have salvation as a present reality, "In whom we
have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,
according to the riches of his grace;" [Eph 1:7]. We sit in heavenly
places with Christ now, in the present. Eph 2:6.



From my understanding Ron is teaching that salvation is dependent
on God's grace NUMBER ONE, combined with our belief, our faith, and
our obedience (works).

Karl reponds: Ron is teaching that. He is wrong.

And when Yahshua returns our salvation will depend on our response
to all of the above. God's promises have ALWAYS been conditional
and God never changes.
>
> Peace be with you
>
> Janine
>

Conclusion by Karl:
Hence, our present enterence into salvation was not based on law,
but by grace alone, apprehended by faith alone. Grace plus nothing.

Karl





> Lord have mercy on me
> and protect me from your
> servants.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karl" <KarlWagner@c...>
> To: <SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 11:55 PM
> Subject: [SDAIssues] Re: Justified=Saved?
>
>
> >
> >
> > Paul teaches that we are saved outside of works, any works, even
> > Holy Ghost aided works. They are never the basis, but he result.
> > James speaks of faith to a people who are holding an
intellectual
> > assent only concept of faith. He is speaking of faith that
works.
> > When Paul get done describing Abarahm in chapter 4 of Romans, he
> > says, " And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."
[Rom
> > 4:22] Notice that he uses the word, "imputed." A forensic term,
> > Abaraham was counted righteous.
> > The theology you are teaching is Roman Catholic. Not like it,
but
> > the very same thing. You Gospel is the difference between Rome
and
> > the Reformation.
> > I have a ten hour day today at work. But when I get back, I'll
quote
> > from the Council of Trent. Such as your belief of obedience
before
> > salvation (justification) is a work of grace to obey in order to
be
> > justified. Rome says, "...in adults, the beginning of the said
> > Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God,
> > through Jesus Christ." [Sixt Session Jan 13, 1547, chap. V.]
> > Karl