More Internet Faith and Works Dialog
Dear Reader,
The following items occurred from the botton of this document to the beginning. Read from bottom to top. I did not have time to rearrange the postings. Or you can read from the top down and probably get the points.
Karl wrote:
"Then Ellen White must be wrong, for she calls justification the imputed righteousness of Christ, and you just described it as imparted...which is the definition of Sanctification."
Ron responds: The key to Ellen White's saying that justification is the imputed righteousness of Christ is that she also says that power is imputed.
"His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man." E.G. White, Ms. 1, 1892.
How does He give imputed power? In short, Imputed Power is God working in man. That is why it is not termed IMPARTED POWER. This is why no man can boast of any works. This has not been dealt with by you nor LeRoy. You have dealt with ONLY imputed grace re: justification.
Imputed power is the power of the Holy Spirit operating through our IMPARTED faith to motivate us to works based on IMPARTED faith in and love for Christ. When we perform such works on that IMPARTED FAITH basis, they are IMPUTED TO US AS RIGHTEOUSNESS, even though Christ did them in and through us. We cooperated by consenting to permit Him to work His works in and through us. Then, because we consent, He imputes such works (as we consent to by yielding our will to His Will) unto us as righteousness. But the power (empowerment) for those works is His lest any man should boast.
God imputed power to Abraham to obey by attempting to offer up his son as a sacrifice. Was that power IMPARTED. No. Abraham obeyed based on faith and love for God. He had no power in and of himself. Our works are nothing--of no avail, NO POWER. But God imputed power unto Abraham by operating as the POWER MEDIUM, and then He gave Abraham credit (Imputed his choice unto him as righteousness) because Abraham believed God and obeyed His command. But the power was that of God working in and through Abraham, so it was imputed power--not imparted power.
Paul says that God wants to impute the same power in and through us as He did through Abraham:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Romans 4:20-25.
I admit that this is a bit more stretching of the faculties of mind than "only believe." This has been "above" you and LeRoy, for some reason. For any who have trouble following this, a vegetarian diet helps to keep the faculties clear. Ellen White said we would have to put our minds to the stretch. "Only believe" has been regarded by Karl and A. LeRoy Moore, as a higher concept than I have presented, something that was "above" Ron Beaulieu, but such is not the case. What God has presented through Ron is the higher road and admittedly, a bit more difficult to discern than "only believe."
Ron
Karl wrote:
"Then Ellen White must be wrong, for she calls justification the imputed righteousness of Christ, and you just described it as imparted...which is the definition of Sanctification."
Ron responds: The key to Ellen White's saying that justification is the imputed righteousness of Christ is that she also says that power is imputed.
"His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man." E.G. White, Ms. 1, 1892.
How does He give imputed power? In short, Imputed Power is God working in man. That is why it is not termed IMPARTED POWER. This is why no man can boast of any works. This has not been dealt with by you nor LeRoy. You have dealt with ONLY imputed grace re: justification.
Imputed power is the power of the Holy Spirit operating through our IMPARTED faith to motivate us to works based on IMPARTED faith in and love for Christ. When we perform such works on that IMPARTED FAITH basis, they are IMPUTED TO US AS RIGHTEOUSNESS, even though Christ did them in and through us. We cooperated by consenting to permit Him to work His works in and through us. Then, because we consent, He imputes such works (as we consent to by yielding our will to His Will) unto us as righteousness. But the power (empowerment) for those works is His lest any man should boast.
God imputed power to Abraham to obey by attempting to offer up his son as a sacrifice. Was that power IMPARTED. No. Abraham obeyed based on faith and love for God. He had no power in and of himself. Our works are nothing--of no avail, NO POWER. But God imputed power unto Abraham by operating as the POWER MEDIUM, and then He gave Abraham credit (Imputed his choice unto him as righteousness) because Abraham believed God and obeyed His command. But the power was that of God working in and through Abraham, so it was imputed power--not imparted power.
Paul says that God wants to impute the same power in and through us as He did through Abraham:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Romans 4:20-25.
I admit that this is a bit more stretching of the faculties of mind than "only believe." This has been "above" you and LeRoy, for some reason. For any who have trouble following this, a vegetarian diet helps to keep the faculties clear. Ellen White said we would have to put our minds to the stretch. "Only believe" has been regarded by Karl and A. LeRoy Moore, as a higher concept than I have presented, something that was "above" Ron Beaulieu, but such is not the case. What God has presented through Ron is the higher road and admittedly, a bit more difficult to discern than "only believe."
Ron
Karl,
You wrote: Ron,
The same time aspect that sanctification comes at the same time as justification is expressed even by Desmond Ford in his Palmdale paper from 1976. Even I have agreed with this in the past, but I have not expressed it such so as not to be misunderstood. One is that justification is not sanctification and vice versa. That they
are distinct, though never separate. I have used my "coin" analogy to express that. And that the reason or root of our sanctification is the justification (imputed righteousness) of the sinner.
Ron's comment: I recall your two-sides of a coin analogy. According to the sayings of Paul and James, I view the root of our salvation as both--imparted and imputed righteousness. I have said that before. Here are the steps I see:
- FIRST ACT OF GOD TOWARD MAN: A measure of faith is given to ALL men. This is an example of imparted grace.occuring before any imputation of justification:
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Acting on that faith to respond to Christ's knock at the heart door, is cooperation with the Holy Spirit. This cooperation takes the form of true sorrow for sin and what it has caused our Saviour. True sorrow breeds true repentance, which is an Imparted gift of the Spirit.
The Imparted gift of repentance is the firstfruit WORK of buying gold tried in the fire--faith and love tried by obedience.
Obedience to the call of repentance is a Spirit enabled work which is imputed to us as righteousness, even though it is first imparted to us. We could choose to reject it, but because we choose to accept the gift, and act on it out of faith and love, that act of cooperation is imputed unto us as righteousness, though it is really the righteousness of Christ appropriated by His enablement.
Thus, the Spirit if first IMPARTED by the extension of a measure of faith to all men.
When we appropriate that faith by acting on it by enablement of the Holy Spirit, we are justified and at the same time sanctification has begun in the act of faith that has worked in, through and by us, with the enabling power of the Holy Spirit.
Karl continues:
The saved, or justified person is the one who gets sanctified. Sanctification is not an optional program. Even as the evangelical F. F. Bruce says concerning Romans 6:22, that a person who is not being sanctified was never justified. Sanctification, though a real
process of our salvation, is not the root of it; but the result of it. That is why what actually saves us is Christ ALONE, His grace alone, imputed...counted to us as righteousness; which always results in the impartation of the Holy Spirit. Justification can never take place with lip service. That is why confession and repentance along with the act of faith are the conditions of it.
Repentance which is not true or sincere...a real turning away from sin is not repentance. This gift from God is our first fruits. It is not a work in the normal sense of works, as in works of the law. It is simply the means by which we enter that saving relationship with Christ.
Karl
I would like to ask you a question Karl. For years I heard that Ford told a PUC assembly on Friday evening not to worry about sinning--that he sinned a thousand times a day. What information do you have on that? I have heard reports from folk who were there in person.
Karl,
According to Scripture all men are given a measure of faith, as was Abraham. What did he do? He obeyed God by faith in and love for Him. He believed God and proved His faith by attempting to fulfil God's command to offer up his only son Isaac. I guess if God told you to offer up your only son (if you have one) that you would not be asking the question: What did Abraham do?
Karl, I have accused you of selective use of the Scriptures. In your original post below, listing a number of Scriptures to support your point, the absence of James 2:21 is most conspicuous. Why would you leave that out? I include all the pertinent verses below and resolve them so that none contradict:
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Paul's View of Abraham's Work of Offering up His Son Isaac
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 http://www.bju.edu/bible/strongs.php?lang=g&id=1161He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification
Finally Abraham believed the promise of God that Sarah would bear him a son. That choice, that work, based on faith and belief was imputed (counted) unto him for righteousness. Paul agrees with James, as follows:
James View of Abraham's work of Offering up his Son Isaac
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Ellen White view of Imputed Power for Overcoming Sin
"His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man." E.G. White, Ms. 1, 1892.
Karl, you are teaching that power is only imparted--not imputed, and that our works have nothing to do with our justification, but are only fruits (results) of being saved. The above examples clearly demonstrate that if we exercise proper faith, the works accompanying that faith are imputed (counted) as righteousness and that we are justified--saved by such works of faith.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl
To: SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 12:02 PM
Subject: [SDAIssues] Re: The Wagner Lullaby
Ron,
You say, "because he (abraham) would not have obeyed God in offering
up his Son Isaac." Are you saying that Abraham was saved by works?
The first time we read about imputed righteousness and Abraham is in
Genesis 15:6
"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for
righteousness." What did Abarm DO?
See also:
Genesis 15:5-7 (in Context) Genesis 15 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 106:31
And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations
for evermore.
Psalm 106:30-32 (in Context) Psalm 106 (Whole Chapter)
Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was
counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:2-4 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the
ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:4-6 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
Karl
Ron responds: Why omit James 2:21 from your above list of verses Karl? This is selective, pick and choose belief.
Karl,
I now recall to mind what I meant when I said that grace plus nothing is nothing. I meant to say that IMPUTED grace plus nothing is nothing ELSE--meaning that grace as unmerited favor by way of IMPUTED (Pardon) for sin is no more than that--no faith, no conditions, no repentance, no confession--just unmerited favor by way of pardon for sin.
That sort of grace plus nothing ELSE, does not take into consideration that a measure of faith is FIRST IMPARTED TO ALL MANKIND.
When Ellen White says that justification is IMPUTED, we cannot pervert her saying to mean pardon only:
"His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man." E.G. White, Ms. 1, 1892.
How does He give imputed power? This has not been dealt with by you nor LeRoy. Imputed power is the power of the Holy Spirit operating through our faith to motivate us to works based on faith in and love for Christ. When we perform such works on that basis, they are IMPUTED TO US AS RIGHTEOUSNESS, even though Christ did them in and through us. We cooperated by consenting to permit Him to work His works in and through us. Then, because we consent, He imputes such works (as we consent to by yielding our will to His Will) unto us as righteousness.
Your understanding of this has been poor to nil Karl. And to join with LeRoy in concluding that I was not capable of seeing your belief system, was most condescending and ignorant. I discerned your system long, long ago, and discerned the errors of it. You have been the one who would not be told anything. You have been the one who felt self-righteous about your belief system--riding on Christ's righteousness and appropriating it to yourself while teaching that Christ does not impart and impute His righteousness to us as a condition for justification.
Instead of being incapable of discerning truth, I discerned the error of your supposed truth. But I attribute that ability to the Holy Spirit and make no boast whatsoever. Your condescending, ignorant and arrogant attitude has been an offense to the Holy Spirit, not me.
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