Dialogue With an SDA Elder

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Dear Fellow Seventh-day Adventist,

What follows is a dialog with an SDA Elder. He is giving me all the classic quotes that SDAs have used for decades now, to attempt to encourage all to remain with the church no matter what it does.

Ron Beaulieu

Brethren,

Gathered into one church:

Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good things in possession. Proverbs 28:10

Gene, I will point out in this post how YOU cause the righteous to go astray by perverting the truth in presenting and misrepresenting one-side of the evidence. Let's consult God's Word to see just who is leading whom astray, keeping in mind the fact that Ellen White said that the Old Testament prophets wrote more for us than the Jews of old:

"Her princes (leaders) IN THE MIDST THEREOF are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain....And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none." Ezekiel 22:27, 30.

"For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed." Isaiah 9:16.

As an Elder, Gene, are you a leader? Any honest person who will read all of the statements I present in this reply post will see that your evidence is very biased and one-sided.

"Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men,[leaders] those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians [leaders] of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus 'Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together." E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211.

"Study the 9th chapter of Ezekiel. These words will be literally fulfilled; yet the time is passing, and the people are asleep. They refuse to humble their souls and to be converted. Not a great while longer will the Lord bear with the people who have such great and important truths revealed to them, but who refuse to bring these truths into their individual experience. The time is short. God is calling; will YOU hear? Will YOU receive His message? Will YOU be converted before it is too late? Soon, very soon, every case will be decided for eternity. Letter 106, 1909, pp. 2, 3, 5, 7. (To "The churches in Oakland and Berkeley, September 26, 1909.)" E. G. White Manuscript Releases Volume One, p. 260.

"The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probaiton. Every uncouth thing wil be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a bedlam of noise. This is an invention of Satan to cover up his ingenious methods for making of none effect the pure, sincere, elevating, ennobling, sanctifying truth for this time. Better never have the worship of God blended with music, than to use musical instruments to do the work which last January was represented to me would be brought into our camp meeings. The truth for this time needs nothing of this kind in its work of converting souls. A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise, to have a carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirit's working." E. G. White, Selected Messages, Vol. 2, 36.

"The state of the Church represented by the foolish virgins, is also spoken of as the Laodicean state." E. G. White, Reveiw and Herald Articles, Vol. 2, 420.

"The Jews had deceived themselves by misinterpreting the words of the Lord through his prophets, of his eternal favor to his people Israel. [Many SDAs have done the same with Ellen White's writings! How? By taking her favorable statements as unconditional and her warnings as only that].

'Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; the Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. Thus saith the Lord: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.' Jer. 31:35-37. These words the Jews applied to themselves. And because God had shown them so great favor and mercy, they flattered themselves that, notwithstanding their sins and iniquities, he would still retain them as his favored people, and shower especial blessings upon them. They misapplied the words of Jeremiah and depended for their salvation upon being called the [chosen] children of Abraham. If they had indeed been worthy o the name of Abraham's children, they would have followed the righteous example of their father Abraham,a nd would have done the works of Abraham.

This has been the danger of the people of God in all ages; and especially is this the danger of those living near the close of time. . . .

God would in no wise excuse sin in a people who had been enlihtened, even if he had, in their days of faithfulness and purity, loved them, and given them especial promises. These promises and blessings were always upon condition of obedience upon their part.

The Lord pronounced, by the mouth of Moses, blessings upon the obedient, and curses upon the disobedient." E. G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 1, 123.

"The Lord Jesus will always have a chosen people to serve Him. When the Jewish people rejected Chist, the Prince of life. He took from them the kingdom of God and gave it unto the Gentiles. God will continue to work on this principle with every branch of His work. When a church proves unfaithful to the work of the Lord, whatever their position may be, however high and sacred their calling, the Lord can no longer work with them. Others are then chosen to bear important responsibilities. But, if these in turn do not purify their lives from every wrong action, if they do not establish pure and holy principles in all their borders, then the Lord will grievously afflict and humble them and, unless they repent, will remove them from their place and make them a reproach.

God is not 'worshipped with men's hands, as tough he needed any thing' (Acts 17:25). E. G. White, The Upward Look, 131.

"We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree...We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird, and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? E. G. White, Manuscript Releases No. 449, pp. 17, 18.

"If we turn from the testimony of God's word, and accept false doctrines [Calvinism] because our fathers taught them, we fall under the condemnation pronounced upon Babylon; we are drinking of the wine of her abominations." E. G Wite, The 1884 Great Controversy entitled Spirit of Prophecy, Vol. 4, 347, not to be confused with Testimonies, Vol. 4. The four volume Spirit of Prophecy series, can still be special ordered through any Adventist Book Store.

"It is now the duty of God's commandment--keeping people to watch and pray, to search the Scriptures diligently, to hide the Word of God in the heart, lest they sin against Him in idolatrous thoughts and debasing practices, and the church of God become demoralized like the falln churches whom prophecy represents as being filled with every unclean and hateful bird." E. G. White, Review and Herald, May 17, 1887.

"In the balances of the sanctuary the Seventh-day Adventist chrch is to be weighed. She will be judged by the privileges and advantages that she has had. . . .I saw our Instructor pointing to the garments of so-called rightousness. Stripping them of, He laid bare he defilement beneath. Then He said to me: 'Can you not see how they have retentiously covered up their defilement and rotteness of character? How is the faithful city become an harlot?" E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 8, pp. 247-250.

"Thorns sprung up.--The thorns made it impossible for the wheat to mature (see Luke 8:4). In the same way secular interests prevent the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22, 23) from reaching maturity. Religion is relegated to the subordinate position of being only one interest among many. For lack of cultivation it withers and eventually dies. That which the thorny-ground hearers lack is a moral transformation (Christ's Object Lessons, p. 50). To them, justification is the sum and substance of religion, and they fail to realize that the Christian life consists essentially in the proces known as sanctification--the process by which evil traits and tendencies are replaced by the perfect life-pattern of Jesus Christ." SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 5, 405.

"It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to unite with those who are corrupt, and still remain pure. (II Corinthians 6:14-15 quoted). God and Christ and the heavenly host would have men know that if he unites with the ocrrupt he will become corrupt." E. G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 4, p. 137.

"The thorns of sin will grow in any soil/ they need no cultivaiton; but grace must be carefully cultivated. The briers and thorns are always ready to sprin up, and the work of purificaiton must advance continually....

The thorns that have been cut off but not uprooted grow space, until the soul [and/or the church] is overspread with them." E. G. White, Christ's Object Lessons, 50.

Quiescent, insincere believer tares, are not to be uprooted until the close of probationary time, Christ's Object Lessons, 72. Open sinning tares and thorns are to be uprooted, o the church will be overspread with them and they will choke out and kill the wheat, making it impossible for the wheat to mature. This is why the wheat must be separated from a church that is controlled by open sinning, apostate tares and thorns.

"But the doctrine is now largely taught that the Gospel of Christ has made the law of God of no effect; that by 'believing' we are released from the necessity of being doers of the word. But this is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which Christ so unsparingly condemned....

Those who are teaching this doctirne toda have much to say in regard to faith and the righteousness of Christ; but they pervert the truth, and make it serve the cause of error. They declare that we have only to believe on Jesus Christ, and that faith is all-sufficient; that the righteousness of Christ is to be the sinners credentials; that this imputed righteousness fulfils the law for us, and that we are under no obligation to obey the law of God. This class claim tat Christ came to save sinners, and that he has saved them. "I am saved,' they will repeat over and over again. But are they saved while transgressing the law of Jehovah?--No; for the garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity: Such teaching is a gross deception, and Christ becomes to these persons a stumbling-block as he did to the Jews,--to the Jews because hey would not receive him as their personal Saviour; to these rofessed believers in Christ, because they separate Christ and the Law, and regard faith as a substitute for obedience. They separate the Father and the Son, the Saviour of the world. Virtually they teach, both by precept and example, that Christ, by his death, saves men in their transgressions." E. G. White, The Signs of the Times, Vol. 3, 363, col. 1.

"Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church..." Christ's Object Lessons, 71.

Thorns--Nicolaitans to be Separated From the Church--"It is our work to know our special failings and sins, which cause darkness and spiritual feebleness, and quenched our first love. Is it worldliness? Is i selfishness? Is it the love of self-esteem? Is it striving to be first? Is it the sin of sensuality that is intensely active? Is it the sin of the Nicolaitans, turning the grace of god into lasciviousness? Is it the misuse and abuse of great light and opportunities and privileges, marking boasted claims to wisdom and religious knowledge, while te life and character are inconsistent and immoral? Whatever it is that has been petted and cultivated until it has become strong and overmastering, make determined efforts to overcome, else you will e lost. It is these cherished sins, abhorrent to God, that make enfeebled moral courage, and leave you to choose to walk apart from God, while you retain a miserable, heartless, outward form. Once the soul was all aglow with the love for Jesus; but all this is changed. The great Head who moves in the midst of his candlesticks will never be without a church. There will be taithless ones who will go out from us because they were not of us. There will be apostasies. But 'nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.' There will be those who are evil, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, who are sensual, who are controlled by the master-worker in all evil, who will have to be separated from the church."...
This labor of purifying the church is a painful work, but one that must not be neglected, if the church would have the commendation of God." E. G. White, Review and Herald Articles, 06-07-1887, paragraph 16.

The Great Controversy [1888 edition], page 51, paragraph 2 Chapter Title: The Apostasy Romanists have persisted in bringing against Protestants the charge of heresy, and willful separation from the true church. But these accusations apply rather to themselves. They are the ones who laid down the banner of Christ, and departed from "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."[2 JUDE 3.]

Gene, was Ellen White a Romanist? In Selected Messages, vol. 1, 204-5, she outlined the steps of the Omega of Apostasy. The true reformers can see the fulfillment of each and every specification of these apostasies. Does that make Ellen White and the true reformers Romanists? Are you throwing up one of the biggest smokescreens ever perpetrated in your imagined charge and misapplying the above statement? That is precisely what you are doing! What a desparado!

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, October 15, 1903, paragraph 8 Article Title: The Work of Our Training Schools Satan is earnestly striving to lead souls away from right principles. Multitudes who profess to belong to God's true church are falling under the enemy's deceptions. They are being led to swerve from their allegiance to the blessed and only Potentate.

Gene, consider the following statements and tell me who is swerving from their allegiance to the blessed and only Potentate. New Movement Adventism has "removed God!" Is that "swerving" from allegiance to the blessed and only Potentate? Please consider:

"Worldly policy is taking the place of true piety and wisdom that comes from above, and God will remove His prospering hand from the conference. Shall the ark of the covenant be removed from this people? Shall idols be smuggled in? Shall false principles and false precepts be brought into the sanctuary? Shall antichrist be respected? Shall the true doctrines and principles given us of God, which have made us what we are, be ignored?.... This is directly where the enemy, through blinded, unconsecrated men, is leading us." E. G. White, Manuscript 29, 1890.

When the True Reformers give out the Great Controversy, GC leaders call that "beast bashing." Is that respecting the antiChrist? Is that respecting Romanists?

"There is manifested on the part of men in responsible positions an unwillingness to confess where they have ben in the wrong; and their neglect is working disaster, not only to themselves, but to the churches....You will be left to make mistakes of a similar character, you will continue to lack wisdom, and will can sin righteousness and righteousness sin. The multitude of deceptions that will prevail in these last days will encircle you, and you will change leaders, and not know that yu have done so." E.G. White, Review and Herald, ol. 2, 448.

Change Leaders: "Men in positions of responsibility are in danger of changing leaders. This I know, for it has been plainly revealed to me." E.G. White, Series B, #2, p. 48.

Change Leaders: "Men who might have stood in clear light, doing valiant service as ministers of the gospel and medical missionaries, have been accepting false theories and sophistries; which originated with the father of lies, and yet they do not realize that they have changed." E.G. White, Special Testimonies, Series B, #7, p. 13-16, November 20, 1905.

Change Leaders: "Satan will set up his hellish banner right in your homes, and you will be so blinded to the real nature of his deceptions that you reverence it as the banner of Christ." E.G. White, The 1888 Materials, p. 505.

Change Leaders: "They will not recognize him [Satan] as their enemy, that old serpent, but they will consider him a FRIEND, one who is doing a good work." Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 294.

Change Leaders: Satan has laid his plans to undermine our faith in the history of the cause and work of God. I am deeply in earnest as I write this. Satan is working with men in prominent positions to sweep away the foundation of our faith. Shall we allow this to be done, brethren?" E.G. White, Review and Herald, Nov. 19, 1903.

Note: The foundation of our faith involves pillar doctrines, and Newell Hammond says this is not now, was not and never will be a problem. Again, Ellen White refutes such foohardy error.

Change Leaders if Mistakes are not Admitted and Changed: "If when the Lord reveals your errors you do not repent or make confession, his providence will bring you over the ground again and again. You will be left to make mistakes of a similar character, you will continue to lack wisdom, and will call sin righteousness, and righteousness sin. The multitude of deceptions that will prevail in these last days will encircle you, and you will CHANGE LEADERS, AND NOT KNOW THAT YOU HAVE DONE SO." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, p. 449.

Change Leaders: "Satan has COME IN with his specious temptations, and has led the professed followers of Christ away from the [PILOT] Leader (Christ), classing them with the foolish virgins." Testimonies to Ministers, p. `130.

Change Leaders: "Refusing to follow in the path of obedience, they transferred their allegiance to Satan. The enemy rejoiced in his success in effacing the divine image from the minds of the people that God had chosen as His representatives. Through [ECUMENICAL] intermarrige with idolaters and CONSTANT ASSOCIATION WITH THEM [Isa. 8:9-20], Satan brought about that for which he had long been working,--a national apostasy." Fuindamentals to Christian Education, p. 449.

Change Leaders: "The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes; yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding tht this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.

The Faith I Live By, page 311, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: Facing the Final Test The decree that will finally go forth against the remnant people of God will be very similar to that issued by Ahasuerus against the Jews. Today the enemies of the true church see in the little company keeping the Sabbath commandment, a Mordecai at the gate. . . .

This refers to the small remnant spoken of in Ezekiel 5:3: "Thou shalt also take thereof a fw in number, and bind them in thy skirts." This is marriage terminology. This is the 144,000 remnant that is married, while the remaining three-thirds of the church (Ezk. 5:1-2) is destroyed.

"The Lord has a controversy with his professed people in these last days. In this controversy men in reponsible positions will take a course directly opposite to that pursued by Nehemiah. They will not only ignore and despise the Sabbath themslelves, but they will try to keep it from others by burying it beneath the rubbish of custom and tradition. In churches and in large gatherings in the open air, ministers, will urge upon the people the necessity of keeping the first day of the week." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 1, p. 405, col. 3.

SDA leaders are already questioning the Sabbath. Go to the Adventists Today WebSite and see for yourselves:

http://www.atoday.com/

"Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus 'Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together." E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211.

"Study the 9th chapter of Ezekiel. These words will be literally fulfilled; yet the time is passing, and the people are asleep. They refuse to humble their souls and to be converted. Not a great while longer will the Lord bear with the people who have such great and important truths revealed to them, but who refuse to bring these truths into their individual experience. The time is short. God is calling; will YOU hear? Will YOU receive His message? Will YOU be converted before it is too late? Soon, very soon, every case will be decided for eternity. Letter 106, 1909, pp. 2, 3, 5, 7. (To "The churches in Oakland and Berkeley, September 26, 1909.)" E. G. White Manuscript Releases Volume One, p. 260.

"The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probaiton. Every uncouth thing wil be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a bedlam of noise. This is an invention of Satan to cover up his ingenious methods for making of none effect the pure, sincere, elevating, ennobling, sanctifying truth for this time. Better never have the worship of God blended with music, than to use musical instruments to do the work which last January was represented to me would be brought into our camp meeings. The truth for this time needs nothing of this kind in its work of converting souls. A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise, to have a carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirit's working." E. G. White, Selected Messages, Vol. 2, 36.

"The state of the Church represented by the foolish virgins, is also spoken of as the Laodicean state." E. G. White, Reveiw and Herald Articles, Vol. 2, 420.

"The Jews had deceived themselves by misinterpreting the words of the Lord through his prophets, of his eternal favor to his people Israel.

'Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; the Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. Thus saith the Lord: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.' Jer. 31:35-37.

These words the Jews applied to themselves. And because God had shown them so great favor and mercy, they flattered themselves that, notwithstanding their sins and iniquities, he would still retain them as his favored people, and shower especial blessings upon them. They misapplied the words of Jeremiah and depended for their salvation upon being called the [chosen] children of Abraham. If they had indeed been worthy o the name of Abraham's children, they would have followed the righteous example of their father Abraham,a nd would have done the works of Abraham.

This has been the danger of the people of God in all ages; and especially is this the danger of those living near the close of time. . . .

God would in no wise excuse sin in a people who had been enlihtened, even if he had, in their days of faithfulness and purity, loved them, and given them especial promises. These promises and blessings were always upon condition of obedience upon their part.

The Lord pronounced, by the mouth of Moses, blessings upon the obedient, and curses upon the disobedient." E. G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 1, 123.

"The Lord Jesus will always have a chosen people to serve Him. When the Jewish people rejected Chist, the Prince of life. He took from them the kingdom of God and gave it unto the Gentiles. God will continue to work on this principle with every branch of His work. When a church proves unfaithful to the work of the Lord, whatever their position may be, however high and sacred their calling, the Lord can no longer work with them. Others are then chosen to bear important responsibilities. But, if these in turn do not purify their lives from every wrong action, if they do not establish pure and holy principles in all their borders, then the Lord will grievously afflict and humble them and, unless they repent, will remove them from their place and make them a reproach.
God is not 'worshipped with men's hands, as tough he needed any thing' (Acts 17:25). E. G. White, The Upward Look, 131.

"We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree...We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird, and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? E. G. White, Manuscript Releases No. 449, pp. 17, 18.

"If we turn from the testimony of God's word, and accept false doctrines [Calvinism] because our fathers taught them, we fall under the condemnation pronounced upon Babylon; we are drinking of the wine of her abominations." E. G Wite, The 1884 Great Controversy entitled Spirit of Prophecy, Vol. 4, 347, not to be confused with Testimonies, Vol. 4. The four volume Spirit of Prophecy series, can still be special ordered through any Adventist Book Store.

"It is now the duty of God's commandment--keeping people to watch and pray, to search the Scriptures diligently, to hide the Word of God in the heart, lest they sin against Him in idolatrous thoughts and debasing practices, and the church of God become demoralized like the falln churches whom prophecy represents as being filled with every unclean and hateful bird." E. G. White, Review and Herald, May 17, 1887.

"In the balances of the sanctuary the Seventh-day Adventist chrch is to be weighed. She will be judged by the privileges and advantages that she has had. . . .I saw our Instructor pointing to the garments of so-called rightousness. Stripping them of, He laid bare he defilement beneath. Then He said to me: 'Can you not see how they have retentiously covered up their defilement and rotteness of character? How is the faithful city become an harlot?" E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 8, pp. 247-250.

"Thorns sprung up.--The thorns made it impossible for the wheat to mature (see Luke 8:4). In the same way secular interests prevent the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22, 23) from reaching maturity. Religion is relegated to the subordinate position of being only one interest among many. For lack of cultivation it withers and eventually dies. That which the thorny-ground hearers lack is a moral transformation (Christ's Object Lessons, p. 50). To them, justification is the sum and substance of religion, and they fail to realize that the Christian life consists essentially in the proces known as sanctification--the process by which evil traits and tendencies are replaced by the perfect life-pattern of Jesus Christ." SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 5, 405.

"It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to unite with those who are corrupt, and still remain pure. (II Corinthians 6:14-15 quoted). God and Christ and the heavenly host would have men know that if he unites with the ocrrupt he will become corrupt." E. G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 4, p. 137.

"The thorns of sin will grow in any soil/ they need no cultivaiton; but grace must be carefully cultivated. The briers and thorns are always ready to sprin up, and the work of purificaiton must advance continually....

The thorns that have been cut off but not uprooted grow space, until the soul [and/or the church] is overspread with them." E. G. White, Christ's Object Lessons, p. 50.

Quiescent, insincere believer tares, are not to be uprooted until the close of probationary time, Christ's Object Lessons, 72. Open sinning tares and thorns are to be uprooted, or the church will be overspread with them and they will choke out and kill the wheat, making it impossible for the wheat to mature. This is why the wheat must be separated from a church that is controlled by open sinning, apostate tares and thorns.

"But the doctrine is now largely taught that the Gospel of Christ has made the law of God of no effect; that by 'believing' we are released from the necessity of being doers of the word. But this is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which Christ so unsparingly condemned....

Those who are teaching this doctirne today have much to say in regard to faith and the righteousness of Christ; but they pervert the truth, and make it serve the cause of error. They declare that we have only to believe on Jesus Christ, and that faith is all-sufficient; that the righteousness of Christ is to be the sinners credentials; that this imputed righteousness fulfils the law for us, and that we are under no obligation to obey the law of God. This class claim tat Christ came to save sinners, and that he has saved them. "I am saved,' they will repeat over and over again. But are they saved while transgressing the law of Jehovah?--No; for the garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity: Such teaching is a gross deception, and Christ becomes to these persons a stumbling-block as he did to the Jews,--to the Jews because hey would not receive him as their personal Saviour; to these rofessed believers in Christ, because they separate Christ and the Law, and regard faith as a substitute for obedience. They separate the Father and the Son, the Saviour of the world. Virtually they teach, both by precept and example, that Christ, by his death, saves men in their transgressions." E. G. White, The Signs of the Times, Vol. 3, 363, col. 1.

"Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church..." Christ's Object Lessons, 71.

We are told that "nothing will be allowed to stand in the way of the New Movement--New Organization." Selected Messages, vol. 1, 205. This is why the faithful will leave to constitute a small remnant "taken in His skirts," while the remaining three thirds equalling a whole church will be destroyed.

Thorns--Nicolaitans to be Separated From the Church--"It is our work to know our special failings and sins, which cause darkness and spiritual feebleness, and quenched our first love. Is it worldliness? Is i selfishness? Is it the love of self-esteem? Is it striving to be first? Is it the sin of sensuality that is intensely active? Is it the sin of the Nicolaitans, turning the grace of god into lasciviousness? Is it the misuse and abuse of great light and opportunities and privileges, marking boasted claims to wisdom and religious knowledge, while te life and character are inconsistent and immoral? Whatever it is that has been petted and cultivated until it has become strong and overmastering, make determined efforts to overcome, else you will e lost. It is these cherished sins, abhorrent to God, that make enfeebled moral courage, and leave you to choose to walk apart from God, while you retain a miserable, heartless, outward form. Once the soul was all aglow with the love for Jesus; but all this is changed. The great Head who moves in the midst of his candlesticks will never be without a church. There will be taithless ones who will go out from us because they were not of us. There will be apostasies. But 'nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.' There will be those who are evil, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, who are sensual, who are controlled by the master-worker in all evil, who will have to be separated from the church."...

This labor of purifying the church is a painful work, but one that must not be neglected, if the church would have the commendation of God." E. G. White, Review and Herald Articles, 06-07-1887, paragraph 16.

Last Day Events, page 184, 185
Chapter Title: The Latter Rain The outpouring of the Spirit in the days of the apostles was the beginning of the early, or former, rain, and glorious was the result. To the end of time the presence of the Spirit is to abide with the true church.--AA 54, 55 (1911).

Ron replies: "The church is in the Laodicean state. The presence of God is not in her midst." E.G. White, Notebook Leaflets, p. 99, 1898.

Gene, if the presence of the Spirit is to abide in the true church to the end of time, as your quote says, what do we do with the above statement? Obviously, the Laodicean church is not the true church triumphant. Philadelphia is. The Spirit abides with Philadelphia to the end of time because that is the church that is not faulted and that is the church that is "kept through the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth," Rev. 3:10. Here again Gene, you have not quoted all the evidence in a way that nothing contradicts, thus perverting truth for yourself and those you lead.

The Faith I Live By, page 305, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: A Purified Church Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin. . . .

Gene, the above statement does not trump Ellen White's statement that open sin (evil) is to be separated from the church. There was evil (Judas) in Christ's church. There will be tares in the church until the close of probationary time, Christ's Object Lessons, 72, but tares are defined as insincere believers whose motives we would have to judge in order to separate them from the church. This is very different from open sinners, and the "dumb dog leaders," Isaiah 56:10-12, will NEVER AGAIN show the house of Jacob its sins, Testimonies, vol. 5, 211.

Last Day Events, page 55, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: God's Last Day Church
I am instructed to say to Seventh-day Adventists the world over, God has called us as a people to be a peculiar treasure unto Himself. He has appointed that His church on earth shall stand perfectly united in the Spirit and counsel of the Lord of hosts to the end of time.--2SM 397 (1908).

That was an interesting distinguishing point. God's church is to be united in the Spirit and counsel of the Lord of hosts to the end.

Gene, I love that statement (above) because it refers DIRECTLY TO THE CHURCH TRIUMPHANT. Is the apostate SDA church "perfectly united" now? Of course not, so that must not be the church that is to be united in the Spirit and counsel of the Lord of hosts to the end. This is kindergarten Gene!

Great Controversy page 608
As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to view matters in nearly the same light; and when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side.

Here we see spirit mentioned in a worldly connotation. They have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth.

Gene, the storm already began in 1957, and the leaders joined the ranks of the opposition and adopted Calvinistic doctrines and aligned itself in liaison with the fallen churches by association, counsel, girding and confederacy. This statement may be compared to the one about the church appearing as to about to fall, but does not. It is the church triumphant surrounded by the enemy in the Great Time of Jacob's Trouble that appears as about to fall as the following statement from the Great Controversy proves. The apostate New Organization will continue and teach the importance of keeping Sunday.

"The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners IN ZION will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat [AFTER THE CLOSE OF PROBATIONARY TIME--CHRIST'S OBJECT LESSONS 72]. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths...

The [ESCA[ED] REMNANT that purify their souls by obeying the truth gather stregth from the trying process, exhibiting the beauty of holiness amid the surounding apostasy. All these, He says, 'I have graven . . . upon the palms of my hands' (Isa. 49:16)...

That which God required of Adam before his fall was perfect obedience to His law. God requires now what He required of Adam, perfect obedience, righteousness without a flaw, without shortcoming in His sight....We cannot do this without that faith that brings Christ's righteousness into daily practice." E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 2, 380.

The Rest of the Story About the Church That Appears as About to Fall

"Jacob's night of anguish, when he wrestled in prayer for deliverance from the hand of Esau (Genesis 32:24-30), represents the experience of God's people in the time of trouble...

Jacob's company, unarmed and defenseless, seemed about to fall helpless victims of violence and slaughter.." The Great Controversy, p. 616.

This is clearly in reference to the Church Triumphant out in the wilderness surrounded by the enemy, see ibid. p. 626 and 635. This group will have been working the cities from outposts. This group is the one from which the unfaithful opposers of truth are shaken, Ezekiel 20:34-38. This is most crucial.

"The 'field,' Christ said, 'is the world.' But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world. The parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God, His work of salvation of men; and this work is accomplished through the church. True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world; everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men; but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the garner of God." Christ's Object Lessons.70.

Three important points:

1. The church is the field. Where are the tares gathered to be burned? Where does a farmer burn the tares? In the field, right? Of course. Where does Ezekiel 22:17-31, say the tares will be burned? In the midst of Jerusalem, the church, the field.

2. The church is not the garner or barn. The heavenly kingdom is the garner, Matthew 13. Wheat can ripen in a wheat and tare mixed church, but not in a church where open sinning thorns are permitted. This is as crucial as anything gets.

3. Zion, Hebrews 12:22, 23, the heavenly church, from which and by which the tares are shaken. This church has earthly representatives. This church is the church that receives the latter rain. Notice:

"The members of the church triumphant--the church in heaven--will be permitted to draw near to the members of the church militant, to aid them in their necessity." E. G. White, The Southern Watchman, Sep. 8, 1903.

Lift Him Up, page 310, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Lift Him Up as the Head of the Church
God has selected a people in these last days whom He has made the depositaries of His law,
and this people will ever have disagreeable tasks to perform.

Gene, the above statement DOES NOT refer to a New Movement--New Organization that has "removed God." Any valid church militant has always had disagreeable tasks to perform, such as separating open sinners from the church. But how will the apostate New Movement--New Organization do this, when they will NEVER AGAIN show the House of Jacob its sins? When their sheperd watchmen will not bark as dumb dogs, Isal. 56:10-12?

Lift Him Up, page 310, paragraph 5
Chapter Title: Lift Him Up as the Head of the Church
It is only when we are careful to carry out the Master's orders without leaving our stamp and identity upon the work that we work efficiently and harmoniously. "Press together," said the angel, "press together" ( Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 538, 539).

The Rest of the Story Gene HAS NOT Told Concerning Unity and Pressing Together

"We are to unify, but not on a platform of error." E.G. White, Special Testimonies, Series B, #2, p. 47.

"Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into yur house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is a partaker of his evil deed." 2 John 9-11.

"It is impossible for you to unite with those who are corrupt, and still remain pure. (II Corinthians 6:14, 15 quoted). God and Christ and the heavenly host would have men know that if he unites with the corrupt he will become corrupt." E.G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 4, p. 137.

How can we unite with an Omega of Apostasy New Movement--New Organization that has "removed God," when we instructed by our prophet that to enter ANY NEW ORGANIZATION would be apostasy from the truth? Selected Messages, vol. 1, 204-5.

"Men in responsible positions are uniting [Ecumenically] with those in the church and out of te church, whose cousel is misleading." Testimonies, vol. 8, p. 69.

"We have a testing message to give, and I am instructed to say to our people, 'Unify, unify.' But we are not to unify with thosw who are departing from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. With our hearts sweet ad kind and true, we are to go forth to proclaim the message, giving no heed to those who lead away from the truth." Selected Messages, vol. 3, p. 412; Series B, No. 2, p. 47.

"To divide our interests with the leaders of error is aiding the wrong side and giving advantage to our foes. The truth of God knows no compromise with sin, no connection with artifice, no union with transgression." Testimonies, vol. 4, p. 81.

"Between the worldly man and the one who is faithfully serving God, there is a great gulf fixed. Upon the most momentous subjects,--God and truth and eternity,--their thoughts and sympathies and feelings are not in harmony. One class is ripening as wheat for the garner of God, the other as tares for the fires of destruciton. How can there be unity of purpose or action between them?" E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 6, p. 53.

"But while we are required to be Christlike toward those who are our enemies, we must not, in order to have peace, cover up the faults of those we see in error. Jesus, the world's Redeemer, never purchased peace by covering iniquity, or by anything like compromise. Though His heart was constantly overflowing with love for the whole human race, He was never indulgent to their sins. He was too much their friend to remain silent while they were pursuing a couse which would ruin their souls--the souls He had purchased with His own blood. He was a stern reprover of all vice, and His peace was the consciousness of having done the will of His Father, rather than a condition of things that existed as the result of having done His duty." The Upward Look, 220.

"To secure peace and unity they [the reformers in context] were ready to make any concession consistent with fidelity to God; but they felt that even peace would be too dearly purchased at the sacrifice of principle. If unity could be secured only by the compromise of truth and righteousness, then let there be difference, and even war." E.G. White, The Great Controversy, p. 45, 1911 edition.

It goes on (GC 608) to say, Men of talent and pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren. When Sabbathkeepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these apostates are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them.

Dear Gene, for God's sake man, this has already been happening right before your face as the GC has taken the faithful to court and spent millions of dollars of sacred tithe money in order to do so! What do you need man?

The General Conference Bulletin, April 14, 1903, paragraph 18 Article Title: The Southern Work "During the time of the end the activity of Satan's servants will greatly increase. The activity of God's servants is to increase proportionately.Christian is to unite with Christian, church with church, in the accomplishment of God's work, and all are to be under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Gene, ironically enough, reformer church after reformer church has united with the Everlasting Gospel Church, under Pastor Perez, and is placing the gospel in all the major newspapers of the world. This is costing millions and the faithful SDA churches are footing the bill, while the "GOD REMOVED NEW MOVEMENT--NEW ORGANIZATION looks on crying "BEAST BASHING," and spending its tithe money to take these faithful reformers to court!

The Faith I Live By, page 305, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: A Purified Church
Those who have any realization of what this warfare means, will not turn their weapons against the church militant, but with all their powers will wrestle with the people of God against the confederacy of evil.

Gene, you are as stubborn as Rolaant! I proved in my last post to you that a New Movement--New Organization, that has "removed God," does not qualify as militating for anything but Satan! The valid church militant is now home churches, and they are footing the bill to the tune of millions to spread the Everlasting Gospel to the world, while your tithe money goes into court actions against these faithful Reformers.

Testimonies for the Church Containing Letters to Physicians and Ministers, page 8, paragraph 1:
So we see that between Christ and Satan there is unceasing conflict. This conflict will be waged until the work of salvation is accomplished. And it will grow fiercer as the end approaches.

Gene, yes it is growing fiercer as the New Movement takes its faithful to court.

The Remnant Church; Its Organization, Authority, Unity, and Triumph, page 14, As we near the final crisis, instead of feeling that there is less need of order and harmony of action, we should be more systematic than heretofore. All our work should be conducted according to well-defined plans.

Gene, the Eternal Gospel SDA Church is taking the Everlasting Gospel to the world in an orderly, sytematic fashion. It conducts is work in very well-defined plans.

The Upward Look, page 315, paragraph 5
Chapter Title: Be Singular--for Christ's Sake
God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church.

Gene, notice the words above: "...for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church." This is why I have instructed that any apostate New Movement-New Organization that has "removed God," Selected Messages, vol. 1, 204-5, cannot qualify as or constitute a church. You are working against yourself on that one Gene!

Great Controversy Page 608, 609
In this time of persecution the faith of the Lord's servants will be tried. They have faithfully given the warning, looking to God and to His word alone. God's Spirit, moving upon their hearts, has constrained them to speak. Stimulated with holy zeal, and with the divine impulse strong upon them, they entered upon the performance of their duties without coldly calculating the consequences of speaking to the people the word which the Lord had given them. They have not consulted their temporal interests, nor sought to preserve their reputation or their lives. Yet when the storm of opposition and reproach bursts upon them, some, overwhelmed with consternation, will be ready to exclaim: "Had we foreseen the consequences of our words, we would have held our peace." They are hedged in with difficulties. Satan assails them with fierce temptations. The work which they have undertaken seems far beyond their ability to accomplish. They are threatened with destruction. The enthusiasm which animated them is gone; yet they cannot turn back. Then, feeling their utter helplessness, they flee to the Mighty One for strength. They remember that the words which they have spoken were not theirs, but His who bade them give the warning. God put the truth into their hearts, and they could not forbear to proclaim it.

Gene, this refers to the church triumphant that appears to fall during the Time of Jacob's trouble.

Selected Messages Book 2, page 374, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Preparing for the Final Crisis
Oh, how many times, when I have seemed to be in the presence of God and holy angels, I have heard the angel voice saying, "Press together, press together, press together. Do not let Satan cast his hellish shadow between brethren. Press together; in unity there is strength."

Gene, I have covered the above subject with the rest of the story concerning unity which you apparently were too dishonest to present. Thus your one-sided deceptive campaign continues.

Selected Messages Book 3, page 352, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Attacks on Ellen White and Her Work
Press together, is the command I hear from the Captain of our salvation. Press together. Where there is unity, there is strength. All who are on the Lord's side will press together.

Gene, Ditto to my last comment above.

Our High Calling, page 329, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: The Foundation of All True Peace
Jesus prayed that His followers might be one; but we are not to sacrifice the truth in order to secure this union, for we are to be sanctified through the truth. Here is the foundation of all true peace. Human wisdom would change all this, pronouncing this basis too narrow. Men would try to effect unity through concession to popular opinion, through compromise with the world, a sacrifice of vital godliness. But truth is God's basis for the unity of His people.

Gene, notice the words: "Men would try to effect unity through concession to popular opinion, through compromise with the world..." This is precisely what the New Movement--New Organization has done. Also, in the 1930s, a few men voted that the church would teach the world's Accreditation Standards in all SDA educational facilities. Compromise with the world? Yes indeed.

The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Four, page 46, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Persecution in the First Centuries
After a long and severe conflict, the faithful few decided to dissolve all union with the apostate church if she still refused to free herself from falsehood and idolatry. They saw that separation was an absolute necessity if they would obey the word of God. They dared not tolerate errors fatal to their own souls, and set an example which would imperil the faith of their children and children's children. To secure peace and unity they were ready to make any concession consistent with fidelity to God; but they felt that even peace would be too dearly purchased at the sacrifice of principle. If unity could be secured only by the compromise of truth and righteousness, then let there be difference, and even war.

Gene, Amen brother. This is the first bit of evidence you have presented! The war is on!

God's Amazing Grace, page 211, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: Creates Unity in Diversity
The word and Spirit of truth, dwelling in our hearts, will separate us from the world. The immutable principles of truth and love will bind heart to heart, and the strength of the union will be according to the measure of grace and truth enjoyed.

Gene, again, I covered this topic under unity.

Maranatha, page 129, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: God will Guide His People
There is no need to doubt, to be fearful that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and He will set everything in order. If matters need adjusting at the head of the work, God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port.

Gene, did you realize that Ellen White describes two "noble ships?" Better know which NOBLE SHIP you are on friend:

Noble Ship #1: "I lately read of a NOBLE SHIP that was plowing its way acriss the sea, when at midnight, with a terific crash, it struck upon a rock; the passengers were awakened only to see with horror their hopeless condition, and with the ship they sank to rise no more. The MAN AT THE HELM [GC PRESIDENT VERSUS CHRIST] had mistaken the beacon light, and hundreds of souls were at a moment's warning launched into eternity." E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 2, 128.

Noble Ship #2: "There is no need to doubt, to be fearful that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and He will set everything in order. If maters need adjusting at the head of the work, God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith thyat God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port." E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 2, 390.

Immediately preceding the above statement is the admonition:

"We cannot now step off the foundation that God has established. We cannot now enter into any new organization; for this would mean apostasy from the truth.--Manuscript 1290, 1905. Selected Messages, vol. 2, 390.

In light of all the statements involving a ship, we must interpret them all so that none contradict. The best way to achieve this goal is to look for qualifying words. In the above statement the qualifying words are NOBLE SHIP and THE PEOPLE OF GOD. Who are the people of God? Those who keep His commandments and heed the Laodicean message. Also, how does God propose to guide the noble ship into port? What principles is He working upon?

"The Lord Jesus will always have a chosen people to serve Him. When the Jewish people rejected Chist, the Prince of life. He took from them the kingdom of God and gave it unto the Gentiles. God will continue to work on this principle with every branch of His work. When a church proves unfaithful to the work of the Lord, whatever their position may be, however high and sacred their calling, the Lord can no longer work with them. Others are then chosen to bear important responsibilities. But, if these in turn do not purify their lives from every wrong action, if they do not establish pure and holy principles in all their borders, then the Lord will grievously afflict and humble them and, unless they repent, will remove them from their place and make them a reproach.

God is not 'worshipped with men's hands, as tough he needed any thing' (Acts 17:25). E. G. White, The Upward Look, 131.

"We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree...We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird, and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? E. G. White, Manuscript Releases No. 449, pp. 17, 18.

"They that forsake the law praise the wicked.' Proverbs 28:4. When those who are uniting with the world, yet claimin great purity, plead for union with those who have ever been the opposers of the cause of truth, we should fear and shun them as decidedly as did Nehemiah. Such counsel is prompted b the enemy of all good. It is the speech of timeservers, and should be resisted as resolutely today as them. Whatever influence would tend to unsettle the faith of God's people in His guiding power, should be steadfastly withstood." E.G. White, Prophets and Kings, p. 661.

The above statement has EVERYTHING TO DO with the Ecumenical involvement of the New Movement with the opposers of truth, the fallen churches who cannot be distinguished from the world, Early Writings, 273.

"Those who are uniting with the world [and churches that cannot be distinguished from the world, Early Writings, 273] are receiving the worldly mold and preparing for the mark of the beast." Testimonies, vol. 5, 216.

Testimonies for the Church Volume Five, page 236, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Christian Unity
Union is strength; division is weakness. When those who believe present truth are united, they exert a telling influence. Satan well understands this.
Never was he more determined than now to make of none effect the truth of God by causing bitterness and dissension among the Lord's people.

Gene, Who has formed the New Movement--New Organization that has caused bitterness and dissension among the Lord's people? Let us let scripture answer the question:

"Her princes (leaders) IN THE MIDST THEREOF are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain....And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none." Ezekiel 22:27, 30.

"For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed." Isaiah 9:16.

"His watchmen are blind: they are ALL ignorant, they are ALL dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. Yea, they are GREEDY DOGS which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that CANNOT UNDERSTAND: they ALL look to their own way, every one for his GAIN, from his quarter. Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink [CELEBRATION TIME INSTEAD OF WEEPING BETWEEN THE PORCH AND THE ALTAR FOR THE ABOMINATIONS]; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant." Isaiah 56:10-12.

"The Bible Prophets Wrote for Our Time.--Never are we absent from the mind of God. God is our joy and our salvation. Each of the ancient prophets spoke less for their own tme than fo ours, so that their prophesying is in force for us. 'Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come' (! Cor. 10:11). 'Not unto themselves, but unto us they didminister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels dessire to look into' (1 Peter 1:12).'" E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 3, p. 338.

"A Firmament of Chosen Ones.--Among earth's inhabitants, scattered in every land, there are those who have not bowed the knee to Ball. Like the stars of heaven, which appear only at night, these FAITHFUL ONES will shine forth when darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people. In heathen Africa, in the Catholic lands of Europe and of South America, in China, in India, in the islands of the sea, and in all the dark corners of the earth, God has in reserve a firmament of CHOSEN ONES that will yet shine forth amidst the darkness, revealing clearly to an apostate world the transforming power of obedience to His law. Even now they are appearing IN EVERY NATION, AMONG EVERY TONGUE AND PEOPLE; and in the hour of deepest apostasy, when Satan's supreme effort is made to cause 'all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond,' to receive, under penalty of death, the sign of allegiance to a false rest day, these faithful ones, 'blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke,' will 'shine as light in the world.'" The darker the night, the more brilliantly will they shine." E.G. White, Evangelism,707, and Prophets and Kings, pp. 188, 189.

"Characteristics of True Reformers.--Here are given the characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear the banner of the third angel's message, those who avow themselves God's commandment-keeping people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in the sight of all the universe, in building up the old waste places. Who is it that calls them, The repairers of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is God. Their names are registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations of many generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1151.

Testimonies for the Church Volume Five, page 79, 80
Chapter Title: The Testimonies Slighted
If all that appears to be divine life were such in reality; if all who profess to present the truth to the world were preaching for the truth and not against it, and if they were men of God guided by His Spirit,--then might we see something cheering amid the prevailing moral darkness. But the spirit of antichrist is prevailing to such an extent as never before. Well may we exclaim: "Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men." I know that many think far too favorably of the present time. These ease-loving souls will be engulfed in the general ruin. Yet we do not despair. We have been inclined to think that where there are no faithful ministers there can be no true Christians, but this is not the case. God has promised that where the shepherds are not true He will take charge of the flock Himself. God has never made the flock wholly dependent upon human instrumentalities. But the days of purification of the church are hastening on apace. God will have a people pure and true. In the mighty sifting soon to take place we shall be better able to measure the strength of Israel. The signs reveal that the time is near when the Lord will manifest that His fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor."

Gene, the floor that is purged is the heavenly garner or barn, Matthew 13:45-50. All types of fish are gathered into this kingdom and then shaken out of this church, by earthly representatives of this church in the person of the church triumphant operating from outposts in the wilderness, Ezekiel 20:34-38.

"And I will purge out from among you the rebels..." Ezekiel 20:38. Please read verses 34-38.

The apostate New Movement church will not be purged any more than apostate Israel was purged. It will be left by the remnant, and then the tares will be melted in the midst thereof; in the midst of Jerusalem, the church, the field, Ezekiel 22:17-31. Was Ezekiel right? Ellen White agrees! She says that Ezekiel 9 will be literally fulfilled, and the last fulfillment was in A.D. 70. All one has to do is look at what happened then. This LITERAL fulfillment "begins at His sanctuary, Jerusalem, as in the A.Dl. PREFIGURE (The Great Controversy, p. 25) and ends with the destruction of the world, ibid., p. 36.

Last Day Events, page 175, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: The Shaking
As trials thicken around us, both separation and unity will be seen in our ranks. Some who are now ready to take up weapons of warfare will in times of real peril make it manifest that they have not built upon the solid rock; they will yield to temptation. Those who have had great light and precious privileges but have not improved them will, under one pretext or another, go out from us.--6T 400 (1900).

Gene, consider that a New Movement--New Organization that has "removed God, has already performed "the going out from us," or true Adventism. If God has been removed, and He has, then there is only one other master. The Laodicean church has surely crossed the bounds of no return by removing God.

It is my belief that in her statements below, Ellen White was referring to a time when the corporate church could apostatize sufficiently to permanently become Laodicean. I believe that state of the corporate church occurred in the late 1950's when it conspired with Babylon to return to the iniquitous doctrines of Babylon, Jeremiah 11:9-15, KJV. By coming into liaison with the fallen churches via membership in at least eight National Councils of Churches, which made it a member of the World Council of Churches, the SDA church violated all three angel's messages and the Midnight Cry. The various churches in 1844, were pronounced as fallen for rejecting these messages for approximately 12 weeks in the summer and autumn of 1844. What do you think would accrue to the SDA church for rejecting these messages since circa 1957, by coming into liaison with the fallen churches, and returning to Calvinistic doctrines? Dr. Ralph Larson recognizes that the church is teaching Calvinism and I agree. Your disagreement does not make it so.

Also, the church commenced at that time to fulfill all the specifications of the Omega of Apostasy, described in Selected Messages, vol. 1, 204-5, including the "removal of God." This act, after knowing the truth for nearly 100 years would constitute crossing the boundary of no return. This is what I recognize as the church becoming Laodicean beyond the point of no return. This is what the Lord has shown me concerning Ellen White's statements concerning Laodicea, that I quote below. You can go to your apostate church god for some other interpretation, but this is what I received, accept it or not.

"The state of the Church represented by the foolish virgins, is also spoken of as the Laodicean state." E. G. White, Review and Herald Articles, Vol. 2, 420.

Do the wise virgins enter the Kingdom of God? Not that I know of. I believe that the corporate church has now irretrievably become the foolish virgin, Laodicean church, and that church is now part and parcel with Babylon as Ellen White said the church would become; the cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Until circa 1957 and on, the church was in and out of the Laodicean state, but it forever sealed it corporate fate from that time on. However, individuals will come out of that fallen church just as they will come out of all the other fallen churches.

"If the church of God becomes LUKEWARM [LAODICEAN] it does not stand in favor with God any more than do the churches that are represented as having fallen and become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird [words applied to Babylon in Rev. 18]. Those who have had opportunities to hear and receive the truth, and who have united with the Seventh-day Adventist church, calling themselves the commandment keeping people of God, and yet possess no more vitality and consecration to God than do the nominal churches, will receive of the plagues of God just as verily as the churches who oppose the law of God." E.G. White, Letter 35, 1898.

Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 2, page 501, paragraph 4.
Chapter Title: Controversy--Positive and Negative Nearness to Christ Brings Unity.--The cause of division and discord in families and in the church is separation from Christ. To come near to Christ is to come near to one another. The secret of true unity in the church and in the family is not diplomacy, not management, not a superhuman effort to overcome difficulties--though there will be much of this to do--but union with Christ.

Gene, pray about the cause of the present disunity in the church. Pray about who caused it by engaging the Omega of Apostasy, and "removing God." How can there be unity where God has been removed? And remember, the true church is in unity for all time--till the end of time, as you quoted. If you think that description fits the current church you are one collosally deceived person.

Gospel Workers, page 391, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: The Missionary
But truth is God's basis for the unity of his people

. Gene, we cannot unify with those who have removed God and adopted apostate doctrines and practices. The Acts of the Apostles, page 28

All who believe are to be gathered into one church.

Gene, there are two noble ships. One sinks to rise no more, and the other, the church triumphant, which has not "removed God," arrives safely into port. Which church (Ship) was represented in Christ's "gathering out" of those who would take the gospel to the world? The apostate Jewish organization, or Jesus and His reformer group home church? Desire of Ages, 232.

"Christ was a protestant...The Reformers date back to Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the apostles." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 48, col. 2.

"The Sanhedrin had rejected Christ's message and was bent upon His death; therefore Jesus departed from Jerusalem, from the priests, the temple, the religious leaders, the people who had been instructed in the law, and turned to another class to proclaim His message, and to gather out those who should carry the gospel to all nations.

As the light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeedng generation. Again and again the history of Christ's withdrawal from Judea has been repeated. When the Reformers preached the word of God, they had no thought of separating themselves from the established church; but the religious leaders would not tolerate the light, and those that bore it were forced to seek another class, who were longing for the truth. In our day few of the professed followers of the Reformers are actuated by their spirit. Few are listening for the voice of God, and ready to accept truth in whatever guise it may be presented. Often those who follow in the steps of the Reformers are forced to turn away from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the word of God. And many times those hwo are seeking for light are by the same teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience." E.G. White, Desire of Ages, 232.

"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14.

Gene,who will give the final gospel?

"A Firmament of Chosen Ones.--Among earth's inhabitants, scattered in every land, there are those who have not bowed the knee to Ball. Like the stars of heaven, which appear only at night, these FAITHFUL ONES will shine forth when darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people. In heathen Africa, in the Catholic lands of Europe and of South America, in China, in India, in the islands of the sea, and in all the dark corners of the earth, God has in reserve a firmament of CHOSEN ONES that will yet shine forth amidst the darkness, revealing clearly to an apostate world the transforming power of obedience to His law. Even now they are appearing IN EVERY NATION, AMONG EVERY TONGUE AND PEOPLE; and in the hour of deepest apostasy, when Satan's supreme effort is made to cause 'all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond,' to receive, under penalty of death, the sign of allegiance to a false rest day, these faithful ones, 'blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke,' will 'shine as light in the world.'" The darker the night, the more brilliantly will they shine." E.G. White, Evangelism,707, and Prophets and Kings, pp. 188, 189.

"Most startling messages will be borne by men of God's appointment, messages of a character to WARN the people, to AROUSE them. And while some will be PROOKED by the warning, and led to RESIST LIGHT AND EVIDENCE, we are to see from this that we are giving the TESTING MESSAGE FOR THIS TIME. Mesages will be given OUT OF THE USUAL ORDER." Testimonis, vol. 9, p. 136.

The Lord is the head of the work and we need to believe it.

Yes Gene, but you have not presented the principles under which He will guide the work. You have presented a very one-sided view that apostate leaders have used for decades to deceive God's people. God predicted that the leaders would do the deceiving and you have taken it all hook, line and sinker. Better examine your ship brother Gene. Better look up the Pilot and Captain to see who you are serving. You may have changed leaders because Christ is "removed" from the church you defend. God bless you and yours, Ron B.

P.S. By the way Gene, keep presenting your one-sided quotes, and I will present the other side. Fair enough?! I think so.