Answers
to Gene's Questions—Part 3
Click to go to our Home PageGene, My responses under yours. ----- Original Message ----- From: gardening@liveliberty.ws Sent:
Sunday, December 30, 2007 6:26 PM Subject:
[LDM] questions for all on the nature of Christ. Ron thanks for prompting this. Ron responds: You are welcome. 1.Do you think Jesus had the post-fall
nature of Adam? Why? Did he have sin? So his nature is somewhat different in
that respect isn't it? Correct? Ron responds: Ellen White said that
Jesus had the nature of Adam after the fall. She said that Adam had our
sinful nature. She said that Jesus had all our susceptibilities. "He was
made like unto His brethren, with the same susceptibilities, mental
and physical. (Roget's Thesaurus lists susceptibilities and propensities
as synonyms.) E.G. White, Review and
Herald, 21085. Christ did not
have PERSONAL sin, but He was tempted in all points as we are and I believe
this occurred when He had ALL OUR SINS laid upon Him. This is a most
important point. Christ had
our sinful nature said Ellen White. God said in Heb. 2:17 that He took our infirmities
and that it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren. The love and justice of God, and also
the immutability of His law, are made manifest by the Saviour's
life, no less than by His death. He
assumed human nature with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations.
"Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." Matt. 8:17.
"In all things it behooved Him to
be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. He exercised in His own behalf no power which man can not exercise.
As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him of God. He
gives us an example of perfect
obedience. He has provided that we may
become partakers of the divine nature and assures us that we may overcome as
He overcame. His life testified that by
the aid of the same divine power which Christ received it is possible
for man to obey God's law. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 3} February 1, 1908 Christ and the Law Mrs. E. G. White When man,
beguiled by Satan, disobeyed the divine law, God could not, even to save the
lost race, change that law. God is love; His law is an expression of His
character. To change His law would be to deny Himself; it would overthrow
those principles with which are bound up the well-being of the whole
universe. But in order to save the sinner, the Creator sacrificed Himself.
The Father suffered in His Son. The measure of God's love is Christ. The Saviour's sacrifice was not to create in God a love that
had not before existed; but it was the expression of a love that had not been
appreciated or understood. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 1} The Son of God
in becoming man's substitute, and bearing the curse which should fall upon
man, pledged Himself in behalf of the race, to maintain the honor of the law
of God. The Father has given the world into the hands of Christ, that through
His mediatorial work He may save the sinner, and
completely vindicate the claims of the law. His mission was to convince men
of sin,--which is the transgression of the law, and through the merits of His
blood, and by His mediation. He was to bring them back to obedience. Through
the sacrifice of Christ, the law could be maintained, and the sinner could be
pardoned,--not only freed from the power of sin, but renewed "after the
image of Him that created him." Col. 3:10. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 2} The love and
justice of God, and also the immutability of His law, are made manifest by
the Saviour's life, no less than by His death. He
assumed human nature with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations.
"Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." Matt. 8:17.
"In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren."
Heb. 2:17. He exercised in His own behalf no power which man can not exercise.
As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him of God. He
gives us an example of perfect obedience. He has provided that we may become
partakers of the divine nature and assures us that we may overcome as He
overcame. His life testified that by the aid of the same divine power which
Christ received it is possible for man to obey God's law. {BTS, February 1,
1908 par. 3} In Christ are
united the divine and the human. The Creator and the creature, the nature of
God, whose law had been transgressed, and nature of Adam, the transgressor,
meet in Jesus,--the Son of God and the Son of man. And having with His own
blood paid the price of redemption, having passed through man's experience
having in man's behalf met and conquered temptation, having, though Himself
sinless, borne the shame and guilt and burden of sin, He becomes man's
advocate and intercessor. What an assurance there is to the tempted and
struggling soul, what an assurance to the witnessing universe, that Christ
will be "a merciful and faithful high priest"! Heb. 2:17. {BTS,
February 1, 1908 par. 4} What an
assurance also that He will be a righteous, just, and compassionate judge, He
who has measured the power of every subtle temptation of man's cruel foe, who
has borne every weakness to which man is subject, He who is a Brother in our
infirmities,--will He not deal justly and tenderly with the soul that His own
blood has been poured out to save? And such is the teaching of His own words,
when He said that the Father had "given Him authority to execute
judgment also, because He is the Son of Man." John 5:27.
- 2. If Christ's nature is to be
implanted in humanity according to he must have something we do not.
Wouldn't that be a reasonable conclusion? And for the born again person isn't it
something desirable? Like the Desire of Ages! Ron responds: At His Incarnation
sacrifice, He laid aside His Divine Nature Holy Spirit as a "highest
good, crowning gift" to us. That is that nature that is to be implanted
in the hearts of man under the New Covenant. 3.Isn't the Bible clear when we are
told that Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh? Never does it say he came in our sinful
flesh does it, but the likeness of our flesh? Ron responds: In addition to the verse
about the likeness of sinful flesh, it also says: "In all things it behooved Him to
be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. He came with the results of
4,000 years of "That
He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon
Himself the likeness of sinful flesh." Signs 09/03/02 "He took upon His sinless nature our
sinful nature." Med. Miss. 181, 1902 "For four thousand years the
race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in
moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate
humanity" Desire of Ages,117. https://omega77.tripod.com/lightbearerhnc.htm http://www.greatcontroversy.org/main/natx_.html https://omega77.tripod.com/dilemmahumannature.htm 4. In what nature did Jesus need to
come in order to vindicate God and man? Ron responds: In man's nature to prove
that man need not have ever sinned. It was the sacrifice of the Divine Nature
in the heavenly sanctuary from the foundation of the earth that paid the
price of the Testator, because the Son was DIVINE ONLY, when He volunteered
to atone for sin and entered the Testator Covenant. 5. I mean the devil was saying that
man could not keep the law and we are told that after the fall it is
impossible for man to keep it, was the devil right? Ron responds: Jesus took our nature to
prove that even with 4,000 years of likeness
of sinful flesh, we can overcome sin by the same means He overcame. He thus
proved that Adam need not have sinned and that it was possible for man to
keep the law before the fall. True, we cannot keep it after the fall without
the aid of the Holy Spirit's empowerment, but Christ proved that even a man
in our sinful nature, and will all the sins of the world laid upon Him, could
keep His commandments by the aid of Divine strength. I have no doubt that
Adam had access to Divine aid if he had wanted it. "That
He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon
Himself the likeness of sinful flesh." Signs 09/03/02 "He took upon His sinless nature our
sinful nature." Med. Miss. 181, 1902 "For four thousand years the
race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in
moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate
humanity" Desire of Ages,117. The love and justice of God, and also
the immutability of His law, are made manifest by the Saviour's
life, no less than by His death. He
assumed human nature with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations.
"Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." Matt. 8:17.
"In all things it behooved Him to
be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. He exercised in His own behalf no power which man can not exercise.
As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him of God. He
gives us an example of perfect
obedience. He has provided that we may
become partakers of the divine nature and assures us that we may overcome as
He overcame. His life testified that by
the aid of the same divine power which Christ received it is possible
for man to obey God's law. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 3} 6. I think or contend that Adam
was not a deficient creation and was well able to keep the
law before the fall so at what point was Jesus to come to prove man could
in fact keep the law? Ron responds: Jesus came at the point
of 4,000 years of man's depravity to prove that by His Divine Nature, that
where 4,000 years of sin abounds, the power of His Divine Nature grace much
more abounds! and man need not sin. 7. I mean if after the fall man could
not keep the law why would Jesus come to prove that man could in a fallen
nature? Ron responds: Christ came under the
provision of the New Covenant, whereby His law, His character would be
implanted in the heart (mind) of man, and the gift of His Holy Spirit Divine
Nature would enable Him to be regenerated to the image of God by overcoming
sin and the lust of the world. Thus, His mission was not only to forgive sin,
but to regenerate (cure) man of the sin problem. As an elder of your church
you should know that Gene. 8. Did he do that? Ron responds: Yes he did do just that! 9. He came to redeem man. Remember now
in Peter we are told ,Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious
promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine
nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. So
as we are told in Ron responds: "The righteousness by which we are JUSTIFIED
is imputed; the righteousness by which we are SANCTIFIED is imparted. The first
is our title to heaven [Justification], the second is our fitness for heaven
[Sanctification]." Messages to Young People, 35. Our flesh is
sinful until glorification, but our characters are to be purified. That is
not a moot point! Sanctification is not a moot point as far as receiving
salvation is concerned. Justification is our title to heaven. Sanctification
is our fitness for heaven, and we will not go to heaven without both! Jesus is
our Redeemer. He practiced self-denial, self-sacrifice, and He loves us in
our weakness and offers to us His strength. He says, "I have graven thee
upon the palms of My hands." He will impart His Holy Spirit in the
plenitude of His reviving, and there shall not be room enough to receive it. Nothing but
the baptism of the Holy Spirit can bring up the church to its right position,
and prepare the people of God for the fast approaching conflict. Why is
there not individual growth in the church? Why is not every member of the
church growing up into Christ our living head? This growth does not mean
growing earthward, but heavenward; not downward, but upward. We are
living in the dispensation of the Spirit. We hold in our hands the
promise of His Spirit, and ministers may be qualified to give the trumpet a
certain sound, to arouse the sleeping people and set them at work for
themselves and for others out of the fold.--Letter 15, 1889, p. 5. (To Dr.
Burke, Dec. 20, 1889.) {2MR
30.1}
"God's ideal for His children is higher than the highest human thought
can reach. . . . The plan of redemption contemplates our complete recovery
from the power of Satan. Christ always separates the contrite soul from sin.
He came to destroy the works of the devil, and He has made provision that the
Holy Spirit shall be imparted to every repentant soul, to keep him from
sinning." {FLB 44.3} "The
Holy Spirit is the breath of spiritual life in the soul. The impartation
of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ. It imbues
the receiver with the attributes of Christ." {FLB 57.2} "Many
had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His
divine person, His merits, and His changeless love for the human family. All
power is given into His hands, that He may dispense rich gifts unto men, imparting
the priceless gift of His own righteousness to the helpless human agent.
This is the message that God commanded to be given to the world. It is the
third angel's message, which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice, and
attended with the outpouring of His Spirit in a large measure."--TM 91,
92 (1895). {LDE 200.2} The above
two statements is why the Holy Spirit is the former life of Christ. He took
the life that is ours that we might have the life that WAS HIS (PAST TENSE) The
imparted Holy Spirit enabled His disciples, the apostles, to stand firmly
against every species of idolatry and to exalt the Lord and Him alone. {2MR
14.3}
The
proclamation of the gospel is the only means by which God can employ human beings
as His instrumentalities for the salvation of souls. As men, women, and
children proclaim the gospel, the Lord will open the eyes of the blind to see
His statutes, and will write upon the hearts of the truly penitent His law.
The animating Spirit of God, working through human agencies, leads the
believers to be as one mind, one soul, unitedly
loving God and keeping His commandments--preparing here below for
translation.--Ms 122, 1903, pp. 1-4. ("The Time of the End," Oct.
9, 1903.) {2MR 22.2}
direct the
searcher. A vast field, yet undiscovered, is to be worked that precious truth
may be found to enrich the receiver, that he may impart his treasure to
others. The Holy Spirit is to be presented in every discourse. {2MR 22.3}
Ron responds: Yes indeed. 11. What would be the problem with
Christ having the nature of Adam before the fall? Ron responds: If Christ had the nature
of Adam before the fall, He would have proved ONLY that man undepraved by sin need not have sinned. The great
demonstration made by Christ coming in the condition of 4,000 years of man's
depravity, was to prove the power of Divine Grace--that even where so much
sin abounded and abounds, His grace power much more abounds! This should
convince us of His power to keep us from sinning NOW, before glorification. 12. To think that Jesus had sinful
flesh not a problem but to say the Jesus is exactly like us might be don't
you think? Ron responds: Jesus was not EXACTLY
like us, but the following factors level the playing field:
13. Are you saying that Jesus was just
like us in all aspects? Ron responds: No, He never sinned. But
He experienced the temptation of all our sins when they were laid upon Him,
and overcame such temptation in sinful flesh by the empowerment of His
Father's Holy Spirit Divine Nature, the same nature we may obtain to indwell
and empower us. 14. Now when John speaks of the
antichrist in the following does he distinguish as to the pre or post flesh of
Christ? Isn't it really up for grabs? Although I am clear on this! Ron responds: Personally, I believe
that John is referring to folk like Catholics and some SDA's who believe that
Jesus did not come in our sinful flesh. They teach the doctrine of Original
Sin, and that anyone coming in our sinful flesh would automatically be a
sinner. That is the doctrine of antiChrist and many
SDA's have adopted that doctrine. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who
confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an
antichrist. 2 John 1:7 The
Acts of the Apostles (1911), page 554, paragraph 2
Chapter
Title: A Faithful Witness
Writing to a helper in the gospel work, a woman of
good repute and wide influence, he said: "Many deceivers are entered
into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This
is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those
things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath
not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the
Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine,
receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed: for he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds."
There is a doctrine that God has a church and it has
evidence to show which church it is. Study Rev 12 and it is clear. The Church Militant, Gene Ron responds: The doctrine of Original Sin, is
not the doctrine of Christ, and those who believe and teach it hath not God. Ron |