My Responses on SDA Issues to a Past Elder of the SDA Church

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Dear Reader,


The following is an Internet dialog I had with Gene who has functioned as an Elder of His SDA church. Any bulleted parts (in black print) are mine from my original post to him. I post this only because I believe many SDA’s think as Gene does and need the same answers that I have provided for him.


Ellen White reapplies Matthew 22 to the end-time. Verse 7 is the end result. That is the LITERAL FULFILLMENT OF EZEKIEL 9! It was so in the first fulfillment of Ezekiel 9, and it will be so in the next literal fulfillment of Ezekiel 9, BEGINNING AT HIS SANCTUARY, the apostate professing Seventh-day Adventist church. You can believe God!



Chapter 22

1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it , and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them .

7 But when the king heard thereof , he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.






My responses under yours.


----- Original Message -----

From: Gene


Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 4:45 PM

Subject: [DefendEGW] Re: Isaiah 4:1-4 and 37:31, 32


 Ron said: A number of points:

  1. I have acknowledged in many documents on my Website and on SDAIssues forum, now this forum, that the prefigure mentioned in The Great Controversy, p. 25, is a symbol of the destruction of the world at the end of time. What you have failed to give is "the rest of the story" from the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy as to where the destruction BEGINS. Ellen White begins quoting Ezekiel 9 in 5T 207. On page 211, she says that God BEGINS AT HIS SANCTUARY. God says in Ezekiel 9:5, 6, to begin at His sanctuary.  Will you acknowledge this fact? 


Gene responded: Reproof and rebuke may, and will, come closer home to individuals than they dream of. God has His work in hand, and declarations will be made that will test the faith and loyalty of the people of God. There are those who have had great light, who are far from God, who in heart are apostates. . . .


Ron responds: Gene, this is true of a church leadership who would and has fulfilled all the specifications of 1SM 204-5. That is why Ezekiel 9 BEGINS AT HIS SANTUARY.


Ron said:


  1. Judgment begins at the house of God. Will you acknowledge the truth of these facts?


Gene responded: But we may still rejoice in the fact that it is not yet too late for wrongs to be righted. Jesus is a risen, living Saviour, our Advocate in the courts of heaven. "And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." As soon as sinners see their sins in the light of God's Word, repent, and seek pardon with contrition of soul, confessing their sins, the Lord hears and answers.--Letter 12a, 1893.


Ron responds: Notice the date of your statement Gene, 1893. We are to consider time, place and circumstances. In 1893 it was not too late for "wrongs" to be righted. Wrongs are not necessarily gross, strictly forbidden apostasy, such as violation of Isaiah 8:9-13 is. That was one of the violations in Jeremiah 11:9-15 KJV, which closed the probation for that GENERATION of Jews.


Gene said:

Also The time is not far distant, when the test will come to every soul. . . . In this time, the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy, will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on th wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness.--Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 80,81.


Ron responds: Gene, I am going to expand the context of the quote and them comment on it:


     "The days are fast approaching when there will be great perplexity and confusion. Satan, clothed in angel robes, will deceive, if possible, the very elect. There will be gods many and lords many. Every wind of doctrine will be blowing. Those who have rendered supreme homage to "science falsely so called" will not be the leaders then. Those who have trusted to intellect, genius, or talent will not then stand at the head of rank and file. They did not keep pace with the light. Those who have proved themselves unfaithful will not then be entrusted with the flock. In the last solemn work few great men will be engaged. They are self-sufficient, independent of God, and He cannot use them. The Lord has faithful servants, who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed                                                                             



to view.


Ron's comments on the above paragraph: SDA leaders have proved themselves unfaithful to the work of the Lord by uniting the church in Association, Council and Counsel, and Confederacy with Babylon and her such agencies. That is unfaithfulness to the following:

  1. The Midnight Cry light of 1844 and on.
  2. The second angel's message which called us out of Babylon.
  3. Isaiah 8:9-13.
  4. Jeremiah 11:9-15.
  5. All of the above constitute unpardonable sin because Ellen White says in Word to the Little Flock, that those who leave the Midnight Cry pathway (by violating it) find it IMPOSSIBLE to get back on that path. That is "unpardonable sin" any which way you try to slice or dice it.

Continuing with my expansion on 5T p. 80, 81:


"There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the day time we look toward heaven but do not see the stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster. {5T 80.1}


Ron comments: These "hidden ones" are mentioned in the first and last paragraphs of 5T p. 80. This sets the context of the page because she is speaking of a people who HAVE NOT HAD the light SDA's have had. So she is speaking of all churches, and this contextual evidence is critical to observe and relate to.


Cont. 5T p. 80:


     The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The mark of the beast will be urged upon us. Those who have step by step yielded to worldly demands and conformed to worldly customs will not find it a hard matter to yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. The contest is between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness. {5T 81.1}


Ron comments: Gene, this is speaking of a time when the TEST will come to EVERY SOUL, not just Seventh-day Adventists. SDA's have yielded to worldly demands (the demands of the fallen churches that cannot be distinguished from the world, EW, 273. The demands that they not steal sheep and evangelize only to the unchurched. This is in direct conflict with the three angel's messages and the Midnight Cry light of 1844.


What about the words: "In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church."


Obviously, in view of ALL THE CONTEXTUAL EVIDENCE, Ellen White is speaking of the gold in all churches. I don't deny that the time of the Sabbath test will be the final time for the faithful in all churches to leave those churches. Notice that the gold is separated FROM THE DROSS. We know that the gold will have to leave ALL FALLEN CHURCHES. End my comment.


     When trees without fruit are cut down as cumberers of the ground, when multitudes of false brethren are distinguished from the true, then the hidden ones will be revealed to view, and with hosannas range under the banner of Christ. Those who have been timid and self-distrustful will declare themselves openly for Christ and His truth. The most weak and hesitating in the church will be as David--willing to do and dare. The deeper the night for God's people, the more brilliant the stars. Satan will sorely harass the faithful;


Ron comments: Remember THE HIDDEN ONES from the first paragraph, p. 80? Those are the ones of other churches who have not had the emblazoned light SDA's have had. Once again proving that Ellen White is speaking of the gold in all fallen churches. End my comment.


Cont. 5T p. 82

but, in the name of Jesus, they will come off more than conquerors. Then will the church of Christ appear "fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." {5T 81.2}  End of expansion of the quote:


Ron responds: Then will the faithful from all fallen churches become theChurch Triumphant.


Ron said: I agree that the statement about uniting with the corrupt refers to the world, but I also want to remind you that Ellen White said that the fallen churches are indistinguishable from the world, Early Writings, 273.


Gene responded:  I have no doubt that it is true.


Ron responds: You did not realize it Gene, but by saying "I have no doubt that it is true," you have tacitly agreed that your church has united to the world by uniting to fallen churches that are indistinguishable from the world by way of Association, Council and Counsel, and Confederacy. That is violation of the Midnight Cry light and the second angel's message which called us out of those fallen churches in 1844. That is UNPARDONALBLE SIN for all who KNOWINLY VIOLATE all of the above and what I am about to show you:



 "While praying at the family altar, the Holy Ghost fell on me, and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the Advent people in the world, but could not find them--when a voice said to me, 'Look again, and look a little higher.' At this I raised my eyes and saw a straight and narrow path cast up high above the world. On this path the Advent people were traveling to the City, which was at the farther end of the path. They had a bright light [CONCENTRATED BLAZE 5T P. 80] set up behind them at the first end of the path, which an angel told me was the Midnight Cry. This light shone all along the path, and gave light for their feet so they might not stumble. And if they kept their eyes fixed on Jesus, who was just before them, leading them to the City, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and they said the City was a great way of, and they expected to have entered it before. Then Jesus would encourage them by raising his glorious right arm, and from his arm came a glorious light which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted Hallelujah! Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far [out of babylon]. The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected. They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming....

By this time the 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads was written, God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious Star containing Jesus' new name." E.G. White, Word to the Little Flock, p. 14.


 SDA's have violated that Midnight Cry light of 1844, which Ellen White said gave power to the second angel's message. The Midnight Cry of Matthew 25 is a call out message. Ellen White said that call will be repeated. There are two Midnight Cry calls to His people in Matthew 22 as well. They have already had one. The next Midnight Cry is at the Sunday law. That cry will be to all who have not heard that cry and/or those in the SDA church who do not realize that the church has violated the Midnight Cry light and joined itself in Association, Council, Counsel and confederacy with Babylon. But to those who violate that light NOW, KNOWINGLY, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to get back on the path again. That connotes UNPARDONABLE SIN.


Ron's original comments to Gene:

  1. We were called out of those fallen churches in 1844.
  2. To unite with them in any way is violation of the second angel's message and the Midnight Cry of Matthew 25. We cannot thus unite with the corrupt and remain pure. We cannot join their Associations, Councils, and Confederacies and agree to just go to the unchruched so as not to "steal sheep." That is betrayal of our commission to take the three angel's messages and the Midnight Cry to all the world.


Gene responds: Testimonies to Southern Africa page 96

The very best talent is required in such fields as Africa and Australia. We have to work in and through Christ, and in some places with the consent of the corrupt churches, although we cannot respect their claims, wherever the church is managed by the state.


Ron responds: It would be preposterous to conclude that we can violate the Midnight Cry, the second angel's message, Isaiah 8:9-13, and God's call to come out and be a peculiar and separate people, in oder to obtain the consent of the corrupt churches. If that were possible, we could use the same rationale to go along with them at the time of the Sunday Law! And take the Mark!


Working with the consent of the corrupt churches would not include agreeing not to give the three angel's messages and the Midnight cry, which has been our commission since 1844. That would be respecting their claims that we must go only to the unchurched and not "steal sheep." That is a requirement of the World Council of Churches and its various subsidiary organizations like National Councils and their local Ministerial Associations. End comment.


Ron said: In light of the above fact, am I wrong in applying the statement about uniting with the corrupt to what the SDA church has done via ecumenical involvement with Babylon?


Gene responded: I do think you are wrong. There will be some in the church and likely the major part that will prove unfaithful and most of us recognize that and of course those that have had the greatest light will be the first to recieve the judgments of God it only makes sense but please show me a place where she says the SDA church is corrupt. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together. GC 656.


Ron responds: Ellen White connoted the corruption of the church at the end time in many different ways:


1.   She said it would receive another LITERAL FULFILLMENT of Ezekiel 9. This will not occur because of minor faults and defects of church leadership and laity.

2.   Any LITERAL fulfillment of Ezekiel 9, must include a LITERAL APOSTATE SANCTUARY, because that was the case in the first fulfillment of Ezekiel 9, circa A.D. 27-70.

3.   Ellen White said that the apostasy of Israel was a PREFIGURE symbolizing the destruction of the world at the end-time, BUT BEGINNING AT HIS SANCTUARY. I would logically assume that the Sanctuary will still be around when this destruction is to occur AFTER THE CLOSE OF PROBATION.

4.   Ellen White said that SDA leaders will tell its members to keep Sunday. That will keep the church visibly intact until after the close of probation.

5.   She called it a harlot on four different occasions, some of them decades apart. The last time was 1903, 8T, 250. Show me where the church has improved and departed from that harlot stance. It has only gotten far worse since her death.

6.   Ellen White said that the church could become a harlot of fallen Babylon by continuing to allow licentiousness to exist in the church and amongst its leaders. This has gotten far worse and has not been cleansed from the camp.

7.   Ellen White said that their would be a COUNTERPART to the Jews of Jeremiah 11:9-15. Who ONLY could qualify to be a counterpart of the Jews, a "chosen remnant" people? I think you know that answer to that question.

8.   Isaiah 8:9-13, gives one option for Association, Counsel, Council and Confeceracy with Babylon--BROKEN IN PIECES. In Ezekiel 9:2, the margin definition for slaughter weapons is "his weapon of breaking in pieces." The SDA church will be broken in pieces for its violation of Isaiah 8:9-13.


Ron said: It is wrong to go to the fallen churches of Babylon seeking the Holy Spirit via their Celebration movement. 


Gene responded:  I agree and I don't do it.


Ron responds: That is good Gene that you don't PERSONALL do it. But YOU DO IT CORPORATELY. Did you know you are responsble AS A BODY for what your church leaders approve of and actually vanguard? They are the ring leaders of the blasphemous apostasy of going to Babylon in search of the Holy Spirit and adopting the Celebration movement which was approved by Vatican II, but has its deepest roots in Pentacostalism. You are corporately responsible Gene, because of the hierarchal organization of the church and because Ellen White call the church a theocracy:


"There are fearful woes for those who preach the truth, but are not sanctified by it, and also for those who consent to receive and maintain the unsanctified to minister to them in word and doctrine." Testimonies, vol. 1, p 261-62.


 "The plain straight testimony must live in the church, or the curse of God will rest upon His people as surely as it did upon ancient Israel because of their sins. God holds His people, as a body [corporately], responsible for the sins existing in individuals among them." Testimonies, vol. 3, p. 269.



The Lord said to Joshua, "Neither will I be with you any more,  except ye destroy the accursed from among you." The defects of  character in any member of the church, or in the minister, are charged to the church if the church make light of the defects. If  you place Elder Daniels over the church as a minister, you, as a church, assume his defects, you make them your own, and the whole  church stands under the rebuke of God, even as ancient Israel was  under his rebuke on account of the sin of Achan. But your case will  be more grievous than theirs, because you knew the evil, yet hid  your eyes from it and walked contrary to the will of God. {PH028 5.4}


Ron said: It is wrong to join Babylon in Easter Sunrise services, for they feel they are o.k. when we join them in worship. Do you see how this could be?


Gene reponsded: I don't do it.


Ron responds: Yes you do Gene, because you are corporately responsible for what your church leaders and laity do when it comes to OPEN SIN that violates the principles of God's Word and strictly forbidden practices that run counter to the three angel's messages and the Midnight Cry light calling us out of worship with Babylon.


Ron said: When we worship with Babylon, they do indeed feel o.k. and it makes giving the call out of Babylon a far more difficult job.


Gene responded: Yes I can agree with that.


Ron comments: Then you agree that there is a conflict of interest between worhip with Babylon and fulfilling the commission of the second angel's message and the Midnight Cry which called us out from worship with Babylon. Doing so is thus unfaithfulness to the work of the Lord? It is betrayal of His cause in the earth.


Ron said: I asked Dr. B. B. Beach if there had ever been ONE CONVERT to Adventism via its Association, Counsel and Confederation with Babylon? He could not give me the name of one person after 60 plus years of such ecumenical involvement of the SDA new movement? God does not bless us when we violate His command in Isaiah 8:9-13.


Gen responded: How in fact is the church violating that command? Here's what she says about it.


Evangelism (1946), page 618, paragraph 1 Chapter Title: Dealing With False Science, Cults, Isms, and Secret Societies


There are those who question whether it is right for Christians to belong to the Free Masons and other secret societies. Let all such consider the scriptures just quoted. If we are Christians at all, we must be Christians everywhere, and must consider and heed the counsel given to make us Christians according to the standard of God's Word. . . .


In your connection with worldly societies, are you keeping your covenant with God? Do these associations tend to direct your own mind or that of others to God, or are they diverting the interest and attention from Him? Do they strengthen your connection with the divine agencies, or turn your mind to the human in place of the divine?


Ron responds: Amen Gene! So I would conclude that you do not agree with joining the WCC and its subsidiary organizations. And the Reader's Digest published an article that said the WCC was formed in secrecy. That article is on my Website.


Ron said: The first representative of the SDA church to the ecumenical movement, Dr. Earl Hilgert, of Andrews University, is now a Babylonian preacher in one of their Sunday-keeping churches. Who wins who when we go on Satan's ground in violation of Isaiah 8:9-13?


Gene responded:  The tears which Christ shed upon Olivet as He stood overlooking the chosen city were not for Jerusalem alone. In the fate of Jerusalem He beheld the destruction of the world. COL p. 302. His words were not then fully understood; but their meaning was to be unfolded as his people should need the instruction therein given. The prophecy which he uttered was twofold in its meaning: while foreshadowing the destruction of Jerusalem, it prefigured also the terrors of the last great day. GC p 25. The prefigure has to do with the destruction of the world and it should not be confused with a comming out.


Ron responds: I must respectively BUT TOTALLY disagree with your saying that the PREFIGURE destruction of Jerusalem is ONLY involved with the destruction of the world, for the following reasons:


  • What happened in Chapter 1, The Great Controversy, was a fulfillment of Ezekiel 9. There can be no doubt about that! Ezekiel 9 was written first for the Jews and it had a fulfillment amongst them.
  • There is no doubt that Ezekiel 22:17-31 was a fulfillment of Ezekiel 9 as well.
  • Ellen White begins quoting Ezekiel 9 in 5T 207. That is the context of the chapter. Then on page 211, she quotes Ezekiel 9:6, saying that the destruction BEGINS AT HIS SANCTUARY.
  • Scripture says that Judgement begins at the House of God. The SDA church is the latest formally organized "House of God," at the end-time. Any end-time JUDGMENT will beging there, and Ezekiel 9 describes that judgment, as does Ezekiel 5, 8, and 22:17-31.
  • You are defying God's Word by attempting to veer from the above facts which you should know, as I believe you now function or have functioned as an elder in the church.


The Faith I Live By (1958), page 339, paragraph

Chapter Title: Facing the Final Test


When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. . . . The final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands, and with a loud voice says, "It is done." . . .


The Acts of the Apostles (1911), page 361, 36

Chapter Title: A Consecrated Ministry


It is the privilege of the watchmen on the walls of Zion to live so near to God, and to be susceptible to the impressions of His Spirit, that He can work through them to tell men and women of their peril and point them to the place of safety. Faithfully are they to warn them of the sure result of transgression, and faithfully are they to safeguard the interests of the church. At no time may they relax their vigilance. Theirs is a work requiring the exercise of every faculty of the being. In trumpet tones their voices are to be lifted, and never are they to sound one wavering, uncertain note. Not for wages are they to labor, but because they cannot do otherwise, because they realize that there is a woe upon them if they fail to preach the gospel. Chosen of God, sealed with the blood of consecration, they are to rescue men and women from impending destruction. God Bless, Gene


Ron responds: Prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in the PREFIGURE of A.D. 27-70, chapter 1 of The Great Controversy, says that there were true prophets warning the people as to when to leave the apostate church and flee Jerusalem. Certainly, Jesus and His disciples "gathered out" all who were saved, DA 232. It is only fitting and proper that in the antitypical fulfillment of Ezekiel 9, BEGINNING AT HIS SANCTUARY, that true prophets would warn the people of God to escape from their corporate involvement with strictly forbidden apostasy.


Ellen White also said that the apostate Jewish church hired and bribed false prophets to tell the people that they should remain with the "true church," and that the Romans would never penetrate the gates of the city and especially the temple! There are such true and false prophets today.


God bless,