----- Original
Message -----
From:
Ron Beaulieu
To: AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com ; Remnant-Seventh_Day_Adventist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 2:03 PM
Subject: [Remnant-Seventh_Day_Adventist] Re:
[AdventistHotIssues] Fw: Jesus as God
The thing that will bring persecution at the end-time, in
addition to the Sabbath issue, is the refutation of Rome's Central Doctrine,
the Trinity Doctrine. The teaching of what you are about to read has already
been responsible for the death of at least two faithful Reformer Bible
teachers in Africa. In light of the seriousness of every fact you are about
to read, it is one of the most heinous abominations a man could commit to say
that the Godhead is not important. That is the stance taken by Laval Picard.
One man, and one man only, cared enough about the highest
good, crowning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, to ask me the answer to a questions
I posed the other day on this forum. That one man, is Paulo Alexandre de
Oliveira, an Engineer in Brazil. Brother
Paulo replied per the below post. Thank you Brother Paulo. We can never get
enough of this all important issue.
----- Original Message -----
From: Paulo
To:
AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [AdventistHotIssues] Fw: Jesus as God
Dear Ron,
Tell us more about this answer. I perhaps don't know all that I must know.
Paulo.
|
Dear Brother Paulo,
To remind all of the question:
"Question: The Divinity of Christ did not die on the
cross says Ellen White. The humanity of Christ was not the Testator, so the
death of His humanity could not atone for sin. Only His person as the
Testator could do that. So the question is: How did His person as Testator,
as Divinity, die, to satisfy the Testator Covenant, if Divinity cannot die? I
know the only answer. Do you?"
Ron responds: The answer is as follows:
- The humanity of Christ
could not atone for sin.
- Divinity could not
die.
- The only thing that
could count as death is that at His Incarnation in heaven; in the
heavenly Sanctuary, Christ left His estate of being DIVINE
ONLY--forever. He thus died to being ONLY DIVINE.
- On the cross, Christ
could have returned to His pre-Incarnation DIVINE ONLY existence, and if
He had so chosen, there would have been no atonement, for His humanity
could not atone for sin, for the simple reason that His humanity was not
the Testator of the Everlasting Covenant.
- So Christ commended
His Holy Spirit, (that divine life only) which had descended upon Him as
a dove at His baptism, back to His Father, as the highest good, crowing
gift that heaven can bestow to man. That was the second death to which
He could never return. He could never return to His DIVINE ONLY life
again. That was His highest good, crowning sacrifice.
- That was the greatest
Merit ever exhibited as the Merits of Christ. That is the Merit--His
Divine Nature, which is proffered to Man, for regenerating man back into
the image of God, and for empowerment for overcoming sin. For only by
Christ's Holy Spirit, can sin be overcome.
- Without that greatest
of gifts (Merits of Christ), the sacrifice of Christ's humanity on the
cross would have been to no avail but to pardon sin forever, because the
sacrifice of Christ not retaining the Testator's Divine Only
Life FOREVER, was the only thing that provided the Sanctuary Incarnation
and Atonement in Heaven, NOT ON THE CROSS.
- However, man was
redeemed on the cross by Christ proving that man could overcome sin just
as Christ did, by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Ellen White says
that He availed Himself of no power that we do not have access to. And
that POWER that we have ACCESS to is due to the heavenly Sanctuary
Incarnation sacrifice, of THEN AND THERE, sacrificing the soul of His
life, His Holy Spirit Divine Nature, and bequeathing it as a gift to us
whereby sin may be overcome and we may be regenerated back into the
image of God.
- The Trinity Doctrine
and the mainstream definition of the Godhead as being God in three
persons FOREVER, from eternities past and eternities future, totally
obfuscates the heavenly Sanctuary "highest good, "crowning
gift" sacrifice. Therefore, according to the Trinity Doctrine and
Laval Picard's definition of the Godhead, the Testator never died to
anything because His divinity, His Divine Nature Holy Spirit, the soul
of His life, did not die on the cross OR EVER before, for it merely
existed FOREVER as the third person of the Holy Spirit. NO SACRIFICE
THERE! I use Laval Picard as an example of what most men errantly
believe about the Godhead. That is the Roman Catholic view. That is the
new movement Adventists view. That is the mainstream Christianity view.
So the Sanctuary and the Atonement (in heaven) before the cross, is
totally swept away by the Trinity Doctrine which denies the heavenly
sacrifice. Thus, it sweeps away the entire Christian economy. And that
is what Kellogg's pantheism apostasy did as well. It said that God via
His Holy Spirit is in everything that ever lived. That is the only way
the Holy Spirit or God could be in everything! Right?! So the result of
what Kellogg said was that the Holy Spirit always existed as a
distinct and separate being or force. But pantheism took it a step
further--making the Holy Spirit a force only, and not a distinct person.
But the important thing is that like with the Trinity Doctrine, in
pantheism, there is no heavenly sanctuary of any Testator to the
Everlasting Covenant. Thus, Ellen White saw the ministering brethren,
like Laval Picard, looking on, but not seeming to understand
(discerning) that pantheism did away with the Sanctuary and the
Atonement. Notice:
Sanctuary
Gone Atonement Gone -- "In a representation which passed before me, I
saw a certain work being done by medical missionary workers. Our ministering
brethren were looking on, watching what was being done, but they did not seem
to understand. The foundation of our faith, which was established by so much
prayer, such earnest searching of the Scriptures, was being taken down,
pillar by pillar. Our faith was to have nothing to rest upon--the sanctuary
was gone, the atonement was gone." E.G. White, The Upward Look, 152.
"The
spiritualistic theories regarding the personality of God [the Godhead],
followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy.
They estimate as nothing the light that Christ came from heaven to give John
to give to His people. They teach that the scenes just before us are not of
sufficient importance to be given special attention. They make of no effect
the truth of heavenly origin, and rob the people of God of their past
experience, giving them instead a false science." E.G. White, 1SM, p.
204.
- So just as pantheism totally
annihilated the Testator's Sanctuary sacrifice in heaven, which provided
the Everlasting Atonement for sin, the payment for the wages of sin or
everlasting death, so the Trinity doctrine denies the same sacrifice in
the heavenly Sanctuary, because it teaches that the Holy Spirit always
existed as a DIVINE ONLY third Person of the Godhead WITHOUT ANY
SANCTUARY ATONEMENT SACRIFICE INVOLVED WHATSOEVER!
- How ironic it is that ministering
brethren like Laval Picard (just for an example because he claims to
specialize in the Merits of Christ), sweep away the entire Christian
economy by teaching the trinity doctrine which totally denies the
Testator's Everlasting Sacrifice which occurred in the heavenly
Sanctuary FIRST.
- The second part of the heavenly
Sanctuary sacrifice, the Second death, at which point Christ could never
return to His former DIVINE ONLY estate of being, was the point at which
Christ commended the life of His soul, His Holy Spirit, His past
Divinity ONLY, to the Father, and bowed His head and died. The first
death to that soul of His life was in the Heavenly Sanctuary at His
Incarnation. The second death to that should of His life Holy Spirit
Divine ONLY nature, was on the cross, when he consented to go through
with the final bequeathment of His "highest good, crowning gift,"
crowning Merit, that heaven can bestow. To teach anything else is
absolute blasphemy that sweeps away the entire Christian economy by
negating the Sanctuary sacrifice at the Incarnation atonement in the
heavenly Sanctuary.
- The Testator of the Everlasting
Covenant was DIVINE ONLY when He made that Testament (Covenant). So a
sacrifice had to be made by THE DIVINE ONLY TESTATOR, and not the
humanity of Christ, which could atone for nothing.
- However, it is part of the redemption
of man, that the humanity of Christ died on the cross. For He proved
that man can overcome by the empowerment of His "highest good,
crowning gift" (Merit), the Divine Nature soul of His life, His
Holy Spirit, which is what He availed Himself of in order to overcome
all the weight of the worlds sin when such was laid upon Him at the
cross.
"The darkness rolled away from the Saviour and from
the Cross. Christ bowed His head and died. In His Incarnation He had reached
the prescribed limit as a sacrifice, but not as a redeemer." E.G. White
Manuscript Releases Volume Twelve, p. 409.
- Clearly (above), in His Incarnation ALONE, Christ met the reached
the prescribed limit as a sacrifice. This means that He met the
prescribed limits of the Testator's Covenant--death of the Testator, and
remember, the Testator was DIVINE ONLY. The Testator was the DIVINE ONLY
SON OF GOD when He made that Testament (Everlasting Covenant).
"He
(Christ) suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life
which WAS His." Desire of Ages, p. 25 1 Cor. 11:24-265, cf. John
6:53, 54, Titus 3:5, 6.
- Christ paid the cost of the wages of
sin, which is eternal death. He eternally died to His DIVINE ONLY form
of existence and after the cross could never return to that DIVINE ONLY
state of being.
One
Spirit Eternal Spirit
Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of
Christ, who through the
eternal Spirit offered
himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve
the living God?
- Christ offered up His DIVINE ONLY soul of His life through the
eternal Spirit--the ONE eternal Spirit of God, which makes all members
of the Godhead ONE GOD. ONE ETERNAL SPIRIT=ONE GOD.
The following
Statement is the Epitome of the Merits of Christ
"Christ declared that after his
ascension, he would send to his church, as his crowning gift, the Comforter, who
was to take his place. This Comforter is the Holy Spirit,--the soul of his life, the efficacy of his church, the light and life of
the world. With his Spirit Christ sends a reconciling influence and a power
that takes away sin.
In the gift of the Spirit [HIS
LIFE--THE SOUL OF HIS LIFE], Jesus gave to man the highest good that heaven could bestow....
The Spirit was given as a regenerating
agency, and without this the sacrifice of Christ
would have been of no avail....
"It is by the Spirit that the
heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the
divine nature. Christ has given his Spirit as a divine power to overcome all
hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress his own
character upon the church." E.G. White, Review and Herald Articles, May 19, 1904, vol. 5, p. 42.
“Christ had stooped to take upon Himself man’s nature; He was to bear
an infinite weight of woe as He should make His soul an offering for sin; yet angels desire that even in His humiliation the
Son of the Highest might appear before men with a dignity and glory befitting
His character.” E.G. White, The Great
Controversy, pp. 313, 314.
“Satan was exulting that he had succeeded in debasing the image of God
in humanity. Then Jesus came to restore in man the image of his -38- Maker.
None but Christ can fashion anew the character that has been ruined by sin.
He came to expel the demons that had controlled the will. He came to lift us
up from the dust, to reshape the marred character after the pattern of His
divine character, and to make it beautiful with His own glory.” {DA 37.3}
----- Original Message -----
From: Paulo
To:
AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [AdventistHotIssues] Fw: Jesus as God
Dear Ron,
Tell us more about this answer. I perhaps don't know all that I must know.
Paulo.
--- Em seg, 1/2/10, Ron Beaulieu <rsbeauli@telusplanet.net
escreveu:
De: Ron Beaulieu <rsbeauli@telusplanet.net>
Assunto: [AdventistHotIssues] Fw: Jesus as God
Para: AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com
Data: Segunda-feira, 1 de Fevereiro de 2010, 13:03
Question:
The Divinity of Christ did not die on the cross says Ellen White. The
humanity of Christ was not the Testator, so the death of His humanity
could not atone for sin. Only His person as the Testator could do that. So
the question is: How did His person as Testator, as Divinity, die, to
satisfy the Testator Covenant, if Divinity cannot die? I know the only
answer. Do you?
Ron
-----
Original Message -----
From: Ron Beaulieu
To: Remnant-Seventh_
Day_Adventist@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 7:55 AM
Subject: Jesus as God
How
to prove to Jehovah Witnesses and others that Jesus is God.
·
God
was the Testator of the ten commandment law.
·
The
law was a Testament; a Covenant.
·
The
person who made the Law was the Testator.
·
Only
the Testator could atone for any breach in that law.
·
Hbr
9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death
of the testator.
Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is
of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
·
Jesus
is the one who died for the breach in the Law.
·
Jesus
was the Testator.
·
Both
the Father and the Son were present at the giving of the Law on Mt. Sinai.
Jesus spoke face to face with Moses and Moses saw only the backside of the
Father.
Father
and Son gave law at Mt. Sinai: "In union with the Father, Christ
proclaimed the law amid the thunders of Sinai..." E.G. White, The
Signs of the Times, 11-12-94, pr. 07.
Ellen
White said that both the Father and Son were on Mt. Sinai giving the law.
"In
union with the Father, Christ proclaimed the law amid the thunders of
Sinai..." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, 11-12-94, pr. 07.
Now
we know how she knew this--by the following verses:
"Then
went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of
Israel. And they saw THE GOD OF ISRAEL: and there was under his feet as it were
a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his
clearness." Exodus 24:9, 10.
“Christ
and the Father, standing side by side upon the mount, with solemn majesty
proclaimed the Ten Commandments. .." E.G. White, Evangelism, p. 616.
"In
union with the Father, Christ proclaimed the law amid the thunders of
Sinai..." E.G.
White, The Signs of the Times, 11-12-94, pr. 07.
"The most fatal delusion of the Christian world in this generation is,
that in pouring contempt on the law of God they think they are exalting
Christ. What a position! It was Christ who spoke
the law from Sinai. It was Christ who gave the law to Moses, engraven on
tables of stone. It was his Father's law; and Christ says, "I
and my Father are one." The Pharisees held the reverse of the modern
position, but were in just as great an error. They rejected Christ, but
exalted the law. And it makes little difference which position is taken, so
long as we ignore the true one,--that faith in Christ must be accompanied
by obedience to the law of God." {ST, September 4, 1884 par. 13}
Ellen
White further contributes to this matter by testifying that both the Father
and the Son were on Mt. Sinai giving the Law. She is right because Moses
spoke face to face with the Son, but only saw the backside of the Father.
Deu
5:4 http:www.blueletter bible.orgkjvDeuD eu005.html The LORD talked with
you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
Read
Deu. 5:1-4, to see that THE LORD OUR GOD made a covenant with us in Horeb,
where is Mt. Sinai. Verse 3 says: The Lord our God made not this covenant
with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this
day. Verse 4: The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the
midst of the fire. Verse 6 says: I am the Lord THY GOD, which brought thee
out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
So
Ellen White was right on! Moses saw God the Father's backside and spoke
FACE TO FACE with the Son, as Lord God, on the Mt. Sinai in Horeb. Here
Jesus is called LORD and GOD. Yes, God the Father was IN CHRIST,
reconciling the world to Himself, but it was not the Father who died. The
Son died as the Testator of that Covenant. Therefore, if Christ was not
equal to God the Father in the Old Testament pre-Incarnation phase of His
Being, then there has been no ratified Covenant--no Atonement, no heavenly
Sanctuary sacrifice at the Incarnation.
Jesus
as God Almighty, the “LORD God Almighty” who
revealed Himself and spoke with Moses:
“Then
the LORD said to Moses, “now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for
under compulsion he will let them go, and under compulsion he will drive
them out of his land.” God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am
the LORD; and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not
make Myself known to them. I also established My covenant with them to
give them the land of Canaan, the land in which they sojourned. Furthermore
I have heard the groaning of the sons of Israel, because the Egyptians are
holding them in bondage, and I have remembered My covenant. Say,
therefore, to the sons of Israel, ‘I am the LORD, and I will bring you out
from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from their bondage.
I will also redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.
Then I will take you for My people, and I will be your God; and you shall
know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the
burdens of the Egyptians. I will bring you to the land which I swore to
give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and I will give it to you for a
possession; I am the LORD.” (Ex. 6:1-8 emphasis mine). Biven’s book, p. 65.
The
man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God
Almighty.” (SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1129).
The
humanity of Christ Jesus was not God Almighty. But, apparently, He was God
Almighty before His Incarnation. No man could atone for sin. Not even an
angel could do that says Ellen White. The commonality that makes the
Godhead ONE GOD, is their ONE ETERNAL SPIRIT. For most Jews, and some
Gentiles, this is a stumbling block.
Exodus
20
1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have
brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee
any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or
that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,
nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God
am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them
that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name
of the LORD thy God in vain;
for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it
holy. 9 Six days shalt thou
labour, and do all thy work: 10
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the
LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor
thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy
cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven
and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:
wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that
thy days may be long upon the land which the
LORD thy God giveth thee. 13
Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou
shalt not commit adultery. 15
Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou
shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's
house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor
his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy
neighbour's. 18 And all the
people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the
trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they
removed, and stood afar off. 19
And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not
God speak with us, lest we
die. 20 And Moses said unto the
people, Fear not: for God is
come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin
not. 21 And the people stood afar
off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was. 22
And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of
Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven. 23 Ye shall not make with me gods of
silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold. 24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto
me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace
offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name
I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee. 25
And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn
stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it. 26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto
mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.
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