SDA Internet Group Therapy--Session#1

 by Ron Beaulieu


"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;  He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,  Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." -1 Timothy 6:3-5

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Dear Reader,

This is the premiere installment of SDA Internet Group Therapy, an overview of what is being taught by SDA Reformers and New Movement Adventists on SDA Internet forums. Most of the material is from SDAIssues forum and you may go there for the rest of the story. It is free to join and there is no obligation to participate. Just go to the following address and join:

Group Therapy Session #1

Bryan Bissell made the following comment on the court statement of Neal C. Wilson:

“With all due respect, it means that you are taking one quote by one man from decades ago and ignoring all that SDAs are teaching THESE DAYS through It is Written and countless other ministries that do reveal the anti-Christ in favor of your a priori and presuppositional decisions that ignore tons of current evidence in favor of one obscure quote decades ago that the man who made it himself probably regrets.”

Ron’s Commentary:

Concerning the following Statement by Neal C. Wilson, someone has said: “How do we know Sessler did not manufacture those court transcripts himself.... Ellen White does say that people with Sessler's message will not have a high sense of honor and integrity.

Neal C. Wilson is long gone and the SDA Church does not teach his ideas. Are so gullible as to think that everything a GC president says is adopted by the Church as doctrine...”

Another person questioned the credibility of the court documents Sessler refers to saying his Website is about as credible as a tabloid magazine and about as weird. The person cited the following statement by Ellen White:

To claim that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, is to make the same claim as does Satan, who is an accuser of the brethren, who accuses them before God night and day. By this misusing of the Testimonies, souls are placed in perplexity, because they cannot understand the relation of the Testimonies to such a position as is taken by those in error; for God intended that the Testimonies should always have a setting in the frame-work of truth.  {RH, August 29, 1893 par. 6}

Ron replies: The court document can be obtained by writing to the U.S. District Court, San Francisco, California. That is all the address you need. I sent for it in 1987. It cost me $28.00 at that time. Would probably be more nowadays. Give the following particulars:

The Seventh-day Adventist General Conference, Court Transcript of United States vs the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission vs the Pacific Press Publishing Association and the General Conference, Reply Brief for Defendants, p 4, Civil Case #74-2025 CBR, presided over by Judge Charles B. Renfrew, U.S. District Court, San Francisco, California, 1974-1975.)

"Although it is true that there was a period in the life of the Seventh-day Adventist Church when the denomination took a distinctly anti-Roman Catholic viewpoint...that attitude on the church's part was nothing more than a manifestation of widespread anti-popery among conservative Protestant denominations in the early part of this century and the latter part of the last, and which has now been consigned to the historical trash heap so far as the Seventh-day Adventist Church is concerned." (Neal C. Wilson, past president of the Seventh-day Adventist General Conference, Court Transcript of United States vs the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission vs the Pacific Press Publishing Association and the General Conference, Reply Brief for Defendants, p 4, Civil Case #74-2025 CBR, presided over by Judge Charles B. Renfrew, U.S. District Court, San Francisco, California, 1974-1975.)

Examples of Robert Sessler’s Overreaching

SDA friends, this is not an attempt to cast contempt upon the efforts of Robert Sessler or any of his supporters. This is an attempt to demonstrate that Sessler is prone to exaggerate and overreach in his evidence presentation. That is most unfortunate, as such overreaching goes far in destroying his credibility among “would be” patrons of his messages which are full of reliable and important material as well. Robert, the exaggeration and overreaching are more than unnecessary. They are dishonest and do much despite to your efforts in the reformer cause. You would do well to purge your material of all such data. Sessler would also do well to admit that his version of the Godhead is no better than any other errant version because it denies the same “greatest good, crowning sacrifice that heaven could bestow.” Apparently Sessler considers that he has no errors, but that is not the case. That being said, he does provide a wealth of good material as does Vance Ferrell. It is interesting that to my knowledge these men have never participated on SDA internet forums defending the truth.

Robert Sessler teaches that the abomination of desolation is standing in the Holy Place at the present time. If that is true, he and his patrons should be in the mountains in obedience to Matthew 24, and yes, I am aware of 5T 451 and 464-5.

Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Since Robert Sessler says that the Abomination of Desolation has already stood in the Holy Place, would any of his patrons kindly tell me how he and they interpret the following verses.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be : for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

·      When and how was the daily taken away?

·      When and how was the abomination that maketh desolate set up?

·      Does that event reckoning by Sessler forces agree with what Scripture and Ellen White say will constitute the abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place?

·      How do you relate the 1290 days to that setting up of the abomination of desolation? Are those days literal?

·      How do you interpret and relate the 1335 days. Are they literal?

Robert Sessler says: “"Can we ever...receive power [God's grace] to overcome our present sinning? The answer is no. Sanctification is as much a gift of God as is Justification." Ministry, January, 1982, p 6. p.6, 2nd column, bottom paragraph

Here is the quote as it reads in the source:

Can we ever work for, or earn, God's grace, whether to atone for our past sins or to receive power to overcome our  present sinning? The answer is No. Sanctification is as much a gift of God as is justification.  Ministry, January, 1982, p 6.

The Overreaching of Bryan Bissell

Bryan Bissell is constantly admonishing that all our arguments be “wholly sound.” Are his arguments in the following examples “wholly sound?”

Someone on an SDA internet chat group said to Bryan: “Even the gentle Savior was a separatist.”

Bryan Bissell responded as follows even though I have quoted Ellen White’s rendition of the matter many times.

--- In, Bryan Bissell <bbissell7@... wrote:

At 05:49 PM 6/2/2007, you wrote:

 And exactly where do you find that he officially left the Jewish church in the Bible or stopped worshipping there? The disciples left after they were forced to leave the synagogues from what I read in the wasn't initiated by them as a necessity at first.

Ron responds: Here is Ellen White’s rendition on both, Christ and His disciples, and Paul as well:

 "Christ was a protestant...The Reformers date back to Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the apostles." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 48, col. 2. 

Paul left 

"And as they persisted in their rejection of the gospel the apostle (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space for three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus." Acts, 19:8, 9.  

 "The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding that this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.  

 "The Sanhedrin had rejected Christ's message and was bent upon His death therefore Jesus departed from Jerusalem, from the priests, the temple, the religious leaders, the people who had been instructed in the law, and turned to another class to proclaim His message, and to gather out those who should carry the gospel to all nations.

As the light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeeding generation. Again and again the history of Christ's withdrawal from Judea has been repeated. When the Reformers preached the word of God, they had no thought of separating themselves from the established church but the religious leaders would not tolerate the light, and those that bore it were forced to seek another class, who were longing for the truth. In our day few of the professed followers of the Reformers are actuated by their spirit. Few are listening for the voice of God, and ready to accept truth in whatever guise it may be presented. Often those who follow in the steps of the Reformers are forced to turn away from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the word of God. And many times those who are seeking for light are by the same teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience." E.G. White, Desire of Ages, 232.   

I can truthfully say that separation was not “initially” advocated by my ministry. But I met with the same fate as all true reformers of every succeeding generation. I have shown all of the above statements to Bryan Bissell many times over for the last two years, but like the stiff-necked Jews of old, he still plies the same argument he did initially and in his statement of late quoted above. 

Bryan Bissell on Easter Celebration 

The following plea to Bryan was made by an individual. I have told Bryan that Ellen White says that the Lord’s resurrection is celebrated by the Lord’s Supper. He remains steadfast in his determination that Easter celebration is a good thing.

Bryan:  "You are trying to force me to accept your opinion that has not even 1 clear Bible warning about it.  That's clearly violating your own standard and yet you continue to insist. Amazing."  

I have provided Scripture umpteen times warning us NOT to worship Jehovah the way the nations worship their gods and it is not enough for you.  You want a "thou shalt not have sunrise services on Easter morning" but you will not get that anymore than you will get "the mark of the beast is the change of the Sabbath to Sunday", or "judgment began in 1844".  Some things in the Bible are for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

Easter:  The Christian Paschal festival.  The name was adopted from A.S. eastre, a heathen festival held at the vernal equinox in honor of the Teutonic goddess of dawn, called by Bede Eostre [cognate with L. aurora and Sanskrit ushas, dawn].  On the introduction of Christianity it was natural [sic] for the name of the heathen festival to be transferred to the Christian, since the two fell at about the same time...This (when Easter would fall) was fixed by the Council of Nicea, A.D. 325.  It was formerly a common belief that the sun danced on Easter Day [Benet, 1973, pp. 298,299].

Take heed to thyself that thou be not ensnared to follow them, after that they are destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How do these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise [Deuteronomy 12:30].

Jehovah our God does not want us to serve him the way the heathens serve their gods.  Easter services are not only a replica of heathen worship but the church has even adopted the name of the heathen goddess and made it about our Savior.

And in all things that I have said unto you take ye heed: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth [Exodus 23:13 ].

If you cannot see from these Scriptures the error of Easter sunrise services, in fact anything to do with Easter and Christmas, if you cannot see that Jehovah our God is telling us not to practice heathen ways, then you simply cannot see. 

I can do no more as I do not have a "thou shalt not have sunrise services at Easter time" nor do I have a "thou shalt not celebrate the birth of my son on the birthday of his enemy".  I only have the words of Jehovah forbidding us to worship him as the heathens worship their gods and forbidding us to mention the name of other gods.  I guess you could probably, in a stretch, claim Jehovah is not saying we cannot mention the name of goddesses.  Hence I give up. 


Benet, William Rose, 1973, The Reader's Encyclopedia, 2nd ed., A & C Black Ltd., London.

The Holy Scriptures, American Standard Version. 

Here is a message to Bryan by the same above individual: 

Bryan, it seems we have been talking about Rick Warren forever and it is hard for me to remember how it all started so correct me if I am wrong.  Didn't this begin because the SDA church is promoting Rick Warren's message?  That is, the church wants to change her style of ministry for the style and agenda of Rick Warren's ministry?  This is not about putting down his agenda as I have not yet read the book.  I am curious as to why the church wants to change her message.  From my understanding God's commission to the remnant of the Millerite movement was to preach the three angels messages.  The Seventh-day Adventist Church is the only church doing that as far as I am aware.  My introduction to the Bible was the three angels messages although it took a while to get to them.  That is understandable because so many other prophecies had to be understood first. 

The first angel tells the world that judgment has come.  The second angel tells the world that Babylon has fallen.  And the third angel discusses the mark of the beast and the consequences.  These angels' messages are being taught by evangelists such as Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, and John Carter plus quite a few others and they are doing an excellent job.  Doug Batchelor's seminars reach all corners of the world.  So my questions concerning the promotion of Rick Warren are these.  Have the three angels messages been preached to death and no longer does the world need to hear them?  Is this why the church wants to preach another message that she was not commissioned by God to preach?  

The SDA church is also the repairer of the breach.  She rediscovered the Sabbath, and, apart from the liberals now making up the world's best excuses for breaking the commandments, should the church forget about concentrating on these points and begin to preach a gospel that others seem to be doing quite nicely on their own?

The Sunday keeping leaders seem to have a couple of things in common that is not shared by the SDA church.  Either they side with the Papacy and agree that men have the authority to change the law of God and Sunday is now the Christian Sabbath OR they declare that the ten commandments do not apply to Christians.  Either way, how can the repairers of the breach, a Sabbath observing organization affiliate with those who deny the authority of the law.

The third angel's message that the SDA church has been commissioned to teach is that those who worship the beast or his image and receive his mark WILL receive God's wrath which are the plagues.  Yet we are now expected to go to Babylon's playground and join forces and remain untouched and undefiled.  Paul said "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump"  [Galatians 5:9]. Are we stronger and more faithful than Paul and those early Christians? 

Some of the most over-looked verses in Scripture are also the plainest.  One is John 17:3 which identifies Jehovah as the only true God but that is not for this discussion.  Another is Matthew 7:21-23 where Jesus says that violators of the law will be lost even if they are calling on his name.  So we know from this that no good can come from these people who not only violate the law themselves but teach others to do so.  How does one justify affiliation with law-breakers when the Bible is so clear?  When we talk the talk but don't walk the walk?  If our commission from God is to warn the people that judgment is going on right now as we speak, that Babylon is fallen, and that the mark of the beast is at our door, why are we, like Lot's wife, not only looking back, but going back?

How safe are we in the devil's playground?


Someone asked Bryan Bissell if he had had a chance to verify whether or not Rick Warren believes that Jesus took on the nature of Adam before or after the fall? Excellent “cutting to the chase” question! For if Rick Warren does not believe that Jesus took the nature of man AFTER the fall, he cannot believe that we can keep the commandments and he must teach “cheap grace” pardon alone, and/or that such is all that is necessary for justification, which is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans!

Ron’s comment: It seems that an attempt is being mad to substitute the Social gospel for the mission and commission of the three angel’s messages in the New Movement SDA church. Though the message is still being preached by some, something has occurred to make an astute SDA man of 33 years of age, the son of professional parents, to make the following blasphemous statement on an SDA forum:

Can you teach the three angels message without being anti-roman catholic?
I would say this is a famous straw man theory. That being that you have to be anti-roman in order to teach the full truth of the three angels message. That is a flat lie, the three angels message is all about a call to return to God and proper worship of him.
No anti roman message in there, it is a side issue that the Roman Catholic church is Babylon’s leader.

To which a responder  wrote:

_______, the third angel's message is that Babylon has fallen.  How can you teach the fall of Babylon without telling the laity who Babylon is?  And the moment the Papacy is brought into the equation cries of "anti-Catholic" are heard loud and clear.

The respondee said: “I realize that is what happens but it does not make it true.

I can say clearly that the popery is the anti-christ, without being anti roman catholic, the trouble is when we blind lump all under in the Roman Catholic Church has the antichrist, when it is the office of the pope that is such."

Ron’s commentary: Obviously, the person making such a statement has no discernment of corporate responsibility of the membership of the Catholic Church. His conclusion is like one saying that Anton LaVey, the leader of the church of Satan in San Francisco, is the only one responsible for that Satanic church, and its supporting members are exempt from any responsibility for embracing and supporting the teachings of antichrist.

I have dealt at length with the party mentioned above and he expresses the same attitude concerning any corporate responsibility for the members of the SDA church, even after being furnished with the following statement by the SOP on corporate responsibility:

     "Achan's sin brought disaster upon the whole nation.  For one man's sin, the displeasure of God will rest upon the church till the transgression is sought out and put away." Patriarchs and Prophets, p 494 & 497  (see also Testimonies, Vol 3, p 265,  517, Vol. 4, p 491, Vol. 5, p 676; Manuscript Release #449, p 1-2). 

     "The plain straight testimony must live in the church, or the curse of God will rest upon His people as surely as it did upon ancient Israel because of their sins. God holds His people, as a body [corporately], responsible for the sins existing in individuals among them." Testimonies, vol. 3, p. 269.

 Someone wrote: The following statement proves the 1893 quote applies today. You are ignoring this clear council

When any one arises, [FUTURE TENSE] either among us or outside of us, who is burdened with a message which declares that the people of God are numbered with Babylon, and claims that the loud cry is a call to come out of her, you may know that he is not bearing the message of truth. Receive him not, nor bid him Godspeed; for God has not spoken by him, neither has he given a message to him, but he has run before he was sent. The message contained in the pamphlet called the "Loud Cry," is a deception. Such messages will come, [AGAIN FUTURE TENSE] and it will be claimed for them that they are sent of God, but the claim will be false; for they are not filled with light, but with darkness. There will be messages of accusation against the people of God, similar to the work done by Satan in accusing God's people, and these messages will be sounding at the very time when God is saying to his people, "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee."  {RH, August 29, 1893 par. 5}

Ron’s response: We must weigh all of Ellen White’s statements on Babylon and whether or not the church is violating them. Ellen White said to do just that, and that course is what most leadership and laity alike refuse to do. Most SDA’s know the above statement because the leaders have used it to excuse their liaisons with Babylon since Ellen White’s demise. It has worked very well for them because most laymen are surface readers and will not adhere to the following instruction of Ellen White:

1.   Weight of Evidence Formula: "1. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible 2. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by diligent application and study 3. Nothing revealed in Scripture can or will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering 4. To understand doctrine, bring all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to know, then let every word have its proper influence and if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error 5. Scripture must be its own expositor, [interpreter] since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound to me, and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed, or wisdom is my rule, and not the Bible." E.G. White, Second Advent Review and Herald, 11-25-34, pr. 24.

The above formula must be prayerfully and carefully applied when considering the following statements regarding the rest of the story on the church being any part of Babylon and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird, which is Bible language to describe Babylon and her harlot daughters in Revelation 18:2.

Ellen White Babylon statements

If I can produce one statement by Ellen White that says the church could become Babylon, you are wrong in your interpretation of other statements you use to say it will never happen! Here is more than one such statement that the church could become part of Babylon:


 "The world must not be introduced into the church, and married to the church, forming a bond of unity. Through this means the church will become indeed corrupt, and as stated in Revelation, 'a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.'" Testimonies to Ministers, p. 265.


The church was married to the world in the early 1930's when a few leaders adopted the world's Accreditation Standards for our educational facilities. Satan could have no finer track to the youth of the church than through the world's education curriculum.


"If the church of God becomes LUKEWARM [LAODICEAN] it does not stand in favor with God any more than do the churches that are represented as having fallen and become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Those who have had opportunities to hear and receive the truth, and who have united with the Seventh-day Adventist church, calling themselves the commandment keeping people of God, and yet possess no more vitality and consecration to God than do the nominal churches, will receive of the plagues of God just as verily as the churches who oppose the law of God." E.G. White, Letter 35, 1898.


Did the church become Laodicean? Has the church remained Laodicean? No! It has become both COLD APOSTATE AND LUKEWARM. The liberals are cold apostate, and the conservatives are lukewarm.


If Laodicea is not regarded with any more favor by God than the fallen churches, and the call of Laodicea is to all churches, then there is no difference between Laodicea and the fallen churches as far as being in a fallen state is concerned. Different churches believe different aspects of Babylonian teachings, but Ellen White equates them all as far as falling from the favor of God is concerned, and as far as constituting the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird.


"We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree...We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird, and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? E. G. White, Manuscript Releases No. 449, pp. 17, 18. (Letter 51, 1886 to Elder Butler) Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce, p. 193.


An Adventist Review article says that the church has the same divorce rate per capita percentage ration as the world. Does that sound like the unlawful intimacies have been curbed and the camp has been cleansed?


"In the balances of the sanctuary the Seventh-day Adventist church is to be weighed. She will be judged by the privileges and advantages that she has had. . . .I saw our Instructor pointing to the garments of so-called righteousness. Stripping them of, He laid bare he defilement beneath. Then He said to me: 'Can you not see how they have pretentiously covered up their defilement and rottenness of character? How is the faithful city become an harlot?" E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 8, pp. 247-250.


Can anyone tell me when the church reformed and revived from it's harlot stance?


"The church cannot measure herself by the world nor by the opinion of men nor by what she ONCE was. Her faith and her position in the world as they NOW ARE must be COMPARED (JUDGED) with what they would have been if her course had been continually onward and upward. The church will be weighed in the balances of the sanctuary. If her moral character and spiritual state do not correspond with the benefits and blessings God has conferred upon her, SHE WILL BE FOUND WANTING." Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 83, 84.


"When this church is weighed in the balances of the sanctuary, it is found wanting, having left its first love....What is the fatal deficiency?--'Thou has left thy first love...'

The light that gladdened your heart when you first understood the message for this time is an essential element in your experience and labors, and this has been lost out of your heart and life. Christ beholds your lack of zeal, and declares that you have FALLEN, and are in a perilous position." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, pp. 462-3.

"The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A NEW ORGANIZATION would be established. Books of a NEW ORDER would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the NEW MOVEMENT. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but GOD BEING REMOVED, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure.

 Who has authority to begin such a [NEW] movement? We have our Bibles, we have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? E.G. White, Selected Messages, Vol. 1, 204, 205.

 "The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit.

 The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a bedlam of noise. This is an invention of Satan to cover up his ingenious methods for making of none effect the pure, sincere, elevating, ennobling, sanctifying truth for this time. Better never have the worship of God blended with music than to use musical instruments to do the work which last January was represented to me would be brought into our camp meetings. The truth for this time needs nothing of this kind in its work of converting souls. A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and pervert that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise, to have a carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirits working." Selected Messages, Vol. 2, p. 36.

When considering the following statement which applied primarily to those who did not join the true Adventist group in 1844 and after, consider that Ellen White also defined “nominal” those who did not accept present truth, to wit:

"Nominal Adventists.--"Those who united in sounding the first and second angels' messages but who rejected the third angel's message with its Sabbath truth, but nonetheless continued to espouse the Advent hope, are referred to by Mrs. White as the 'nominal Adventists.' or those who 'reject the present truth'(p. 69), also 'different parties of professed Advent believers (page 124) or...those who 'reject the present truth.." Early Writings, p. 299, Appendix.

"I saw the nominal church and nominal Adventists, like Judas, would betray us to the Catholics to obtain their influence to come against the truth. The saints then will be an obscure [hidden] people, little known to the Catholics but the churches and nominal Adventists who know of our faith and customs (for they hate us on account of the Sabbath, for they could not refute it) will betray the saints and report them to the Catholics as those who disregard the institutions of the people that is, that they keep the Sabbath and disregard Sunday.

Then the Catholics bid the Protestants to go forward, and issue a decree that all who will not observe the first day of the week, instead of the seventh day, shall be slain. And the Catholics, whose numbers are large, will stand by the Protestants. The Catholics will give their power to the image of the beast. And the Protestants will work as their mother worked before them to destroy the saints. But before their decree bring or bear fruit, the saints will be delivered by the Voice of God. Then I saw that Jesus' work in the sanctuary will soon be finished. And after His work there is finished, He will come to the door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the Scape Goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues will come upon the wicked, and they do not come till Jesus puts on that garment, and takes Hs place upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling, the Scape Goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that leads him. If he should effect his escape, Israel would lose their lives. I saw that it would take time to lead away the Scape Goat into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put on his head.

The great white cloud I saw was not the holy place, but entirely separate from the holy and most holy place, entirely separate from the sanctuary. 

Then the angel repeated these words, and said, 'This is the time spoken of in Isaiah. He saw that there was not man, and wondered that there was no intercessor. He had no mediator between God and man, and these plagues could be withheld no longer, for Jesus had ceased to plead for Israel, and they were covered with the covering of the Almighty God, and they could live in the sight of a holy God, and those who were not covered, the plagues fell upon them, for they had nothing to shelter or protect them from the wrath of God." E.G. White, Dorchester, Maine, October 23, 1850, Spalding--Magan's Unpublished Mss. Testimonies, pp. 1, 2.

Jesus sends his people a message of warning to prepare them for his coming. To the prophet John was made known the closing work in the great plan of man's redemption. He beheld an angel flying "in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his Judgment is come; and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."  See footnote at bottom of page: [REV. 14:6, 7.] [This message was given to SDA’s, so the statement applies especially to them, but to the other fallen churches as well--Ron].

     The angel represented in prophecy as delivering this message, symbolizes a class of faithful men, who, obedient to the promptings of God's Spirit and the teachings of his word, proclaim this warning to the inhabitants of earth. This message was not to be committed to the religious leaders of the people. They had failed to preserve their connection with God, and had refused the light from Heaven; therefore they were not of the number described by the apostle Paul: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day; we are not of the night nor of darkness." [1 THESS. 5:4, 5.]

     The watchmen upon the walls of Zion should be the first to catch the tidings of the Saviour's advent, the first to lift their voices to proclaim him near, the first to warn the people to prepare for his coming. But they were at ease, dreaming of peace and safety, while the people were asleep in their sins. Jesus saw his church, like the barren fig-tree, covered with pretentious leaves, yet destitute of precious fruit. There was a boastful observance of the forms of religion, while the spirit of true humility, penitence and faith--which alone could render the service acceptable to God--was lacking. Instead of the graces of the Spirit, there were manifested pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, oppression. A backsliding church closed their eyes to the signs of the times. God did not forsake them, or suffer his faithfulness to fail; but they departed from him, and separated themselves from his love. As they refused to comply with the conditions, his promises were not fulfilled to them.

     Love for Christ and faith in His coming waxed cold. Such is the sure result of neglect to appreciate and improve the light and privileges which God bestows. Unless the church will follow on in his opening providence, accepting every ray of light, performing every duty which may be revealed, religion will inevitably degenerate into the observance of forms, and the spirit of vital godliness will disappear. This truth has been repeatedly illustrated in the history of the church. God requires of his people works of faith and obedience corresponding to the blessings and privileges bestowed. Obedience requires a sacrifice and involves a cross; and this is why so many of the professed followers of Christ refused to receive the light from Heaven, and, like the Jews of old, knew not the time of their visitation. [LUKE 19:44.] Because of their pride and unbelief, the Lord passed them by, and revealed his truth to men in humble life, who had given heed to all the light they had received.  E.G. White, Spirit of Prophecy, Vol. 4, pp. 199-200, (Not to be confused with Testimonies, Vol. 4).

A person stated: You said you "sound a loud cry against the New Movement Omega Apostasy"

The message contained in the pamphlet called the "Loud Cry," is a deception. Such messages will come, and it will be claimed for them that they are sent of God, but the claim will be false; for they are not filled with light, but with darkness. There will be messages of accusation against the people of God, similar to the work done by Satan in accusing God's people, and these messages will be sounding at the very time when God is saying to his people, "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee."  {RH, August 29, 1893 par. 5}

1) What was the message proclaimed in the Loud Cry Pamphlet?

It stated the SDA Church had become Babylon and we are to leave.

2) What does Ellen White say about this pamphlet called the "Loud Cry"?

It is a deception.

She also says:

  • Such messages will come, and it will be claimed for them that they are sent of God, but the claim will be false.
  • There will be messages of accusation against the people of God, similar to the work done by Satan in accusing God's people, and these messages will be sounding at the very time when God is saying to his people, "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee."

Right now we are seeing this false message that we are to leave the Church sounding, because God is saying to His Church  "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee." with Operation Global Rain


Ron responds: How do we have every uncouth thing coming into our Campmeetings JUST BEFORE PROBATION CLOSES, and still have the Holy Spirit being poured out on the church via Operation Global Rain? How do we have the omega of apostasy waxing stronger until Jesus comes and the Holy Spirit being poured out at the same time?


Concerning the Leland Kaiser case (an Elder in his church who teaches New Age Spiritualism and out right pantheism, the person quoted above said:


“There is NO clear evidence that the Ohio Conference
knows about the Kaiser's pantheistic/Spiritualism teachings. In any case this was an isolated incident and is not being taught by the SDA Church but some rogue individual.

Many of the problems you separatist talk about in the Church have been corrected years ago.... it is almost like you people live in a time warp and have no idea that things have been corrected... or you just don't
want to admit many of the problems have been corrected.”


The Kaiser case has been going on for a long time now? How come the Ohio Conference knows nothing of his case if that is true? Why have the members of the church not notified the conference? Can one view a modern-day sorcerer in the church as merely “an isolated incident,” and just “some rogue individual,” especially when that individual is an elder in his church? Has this “problem been corrected?” Did Neal Wilson repent of his court testimony that betrays the three angel’s messages? Was that corrected? Can such apostasies by corrected without repentance being as broad as the injury?


Does Corporate Responsibility Accrue for Leland Kaisers Sorcery Spiritualism?


It is interesting to consider that Israel was cursed for Achan’s sin, and New Movement SDA’s believe that their “church” can be blessed with the Holy Spirit despite Leland’s Kaiser’s sin and those of many other leading officials! This works as a total despite against the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy.

"There are fearful woes for those who preach the truth, but are not sanctified by it, and also for those who consent to receive and maintain the unsanctified to minister to them in word and doctrine." Testimonies, Vol. 1, p 261-62

Now God would have the church in Fresno dependent on no living man. But when they become so blind as to choose a man to preach to them the message appropriate for this time,--a man of so great weakness of character and of so little moral power as they know E. P. Daniels to be,--and give him the oversight of the flock, the candlesticks must be terribly shaken and moved out of their place. If you accept the labors of Elder Daniels in the church at Fresno while he is in his present state of darkness, it will be dishonoring God. It will lower the standard of righteousness to the ruin of the man and the detriment of the church. {PH028 5.3}

The Lord said to Joshua, "Neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you." The defects of character in any member of the church, or in the minister, are charged to the church if the church make light of the defects. If you place Elder Daniels over the church as a minister, you, as a church, assume his defects, you make them your own, and the whole church stands under the rebuke of God, even as ancient Israel was under his rebuke on account of the sin of Achan. But your case will be more grievous than theirs, because you knew the evil, yet hid your eyes from it and walked contrary to the will of God. {PH028 5.4}

Why would Ezekiel 9 be literally fulfilled, BEGINNING AT HIS SANCTUARY, 5T 211, if the church repented and received the Holy Spirit?

Study Ezekiel 9 "Study the 9th chapter of Ezekiel. These words will be literally fulfilled yet the time is passing, and the people are asleep. They refuse to humble their souls and to be converted. Not a great while longer will the Lord bear with the people who have such great and important truths revealed to them, but who refuse to bring these truths into their individual experience. The time is short. God is calling will YOU hear? Will YOU receive His message? Will YOU be converted before it is too late? Soon, very soon, every case will be decided for eternity. Letter 106, 1909, pp. 2, 3, 5, 7. (To "The churches in Oakland and Berkeley, September 26, 1909.)" E. G. White Manuscript Releases Volume One, p. 260.

How could there be a counterpart to the Jews who were a chosen people who claimed to keep the commandments of God? –if SDA’s fail to be that counterpart by repenting? It is true that some will repent and come out. Isaiah 37:31, 32 and Ezekiel 5:1-3.


COUNTERPART: "The Lord commanded one of his ancient servants, 'Pray not thou for this people [Jer. 7:16 and 11:14], neither lift up cry nor prayer for them neither make intercession to me for I will not hear thee.' The prophet thus describes the sins which had called forth this fearful denunciation: 'The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means and my people love to have it so and what will ye do in the end thereof?' 'From the least of them even unto the greatest of them, every one is given to covetousness and from the prophet even unto the priest, every one dealeth falsely. They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace, when there is no peace.' The apostles declare that this state of things will find its COUNTERPART in the last days. Many have a form of godliness, but in their daily life deny the power thereof. They have ceased to be convicted of their sins or alarmed at their state. They say in their hearts, 'The church is flourishing. Peace and spiritual prosperity are within her borders.' The words of the prophet may well apply to these self-deceivers, 'They have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them." E. G. White, Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald,  11-07-82.


"Shall the Lord be compelled to say, `Pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to Me: for I will not hear thee' [Jeremiah 7:16]? `Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain....Wilt thou not from this time cry unto Me, My Father, thou art the guide of my youth' [Jeremiah 3:3-4]?...

We are to be judged by the light that has been given us,(159) and we can find no excuse by which to extenuate our course." Review and Herald, Vol 3, p 69-70 (August 1, 1893). (Brackets by Ellen White)


COUNTERPART: "In the time of the Saviour, the Jews had so covered over the precious jewels of truth with the rubbish of tradition and fable, that it was impossible to distinguish the true from the false. The Saviour came to clear away the rubbish of superstition and long-cherished errors, and to set the jewels of God's word in the framework of truth. What would the Saviour do if he should come to us now as he did to the Jews? He would have to do a similar work in clearing away the rubbish of tradition and ceremony. The Jews were greatly disturbed when he did this work [As are SDAs today!]. They had lost sight of the original truth of God, but Christ brought it again to view. It is our work to free the precious truths of God from superstition and error." E.G. WhiteReview and Herald, Vol. 2, 308. 

Will Operation Global Rain Have a False Semblance of Success?

Though the following statement applies to the fallen churches that did not follow Christ into the Most Holy Place in 1844, it well depicts that Satan breathes his power on those who have left the Midnight Cry lighted pathway as well.

March 14, 1846 Letter from Sister Harmon.

Falmouth Mass., Feb., 15, 1846.

Bro. Jacobs:--

     My vision which you published in the Day-Star was written under a deep sense of duty, to you, not expecting you would publish it. Had I for once thought it was to be spread before the many readers of your paper, I should have been more particular and stated some things which I left out. As the readers of the Day-Star have seen a part of what God has revealed to me, and as the part which I have not written is of vast importance to the Saints; I humbly request you to publish this also in your paper. God showed me the following, one year ago this month:--I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired his lovely person. The Fathers person I could not behold for a cloud of glorious light covered him. I asked Jesus if his Father had a form like himself; He said he had, but I could not behold it; for, said he, if you should for once see the glory of his person, you would cease to exist. Before the throne was the Advent people, the Church, and the world. I saw a company bowed down before the throne, deeply interested while most of them stood up disinterested and careless. Those who were bowed before the throne would offer up their prayers and look to Jesus, then he would look to his Father and appeared to be pleading with him. Then a light came from the Father to his Son and from him to the praying company. Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from the Father to the Son and from the Son it waved over the people before the throne. But few would receive this great light. Many came out from under it and immediately resisted it. Others were careless and did not cherish the light and it moved off from them. Some cherished it and went and bowed down before the throne with the little praying company. This company all received the light, and rejoiced in it as their countenances shone with its glory. Then I saw the Father rise from the throne and in a flaming chariot go into the Holy of Holies within the vail, and did sit. There I saw thrones which I had not seen before. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and most of those who were bowed down rose up with him. And I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after he rose up, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who rose up when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on him as he left the throne, and led them out a little way, then he raised his right arm and we heard his lovely voice saying, wait ye, I am going to my Father to receive the Kingdom. Keep your garments spotless and in a little while I will return from the wedding, and receive you to myself. And I saw a cloudy chariot with wheels like flaming fire. Angels were all about the chariot as it came where Jesus was; he stepped into it and was borne to the Holiest where the Father sat. Then I beheld Jesus as he was before the Father a great High Priest. On the hem of his garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Then Jesus shewed me the difference between faith and feeling. And I saw those who rose up with Jesus send up their faith to Jesus in the Holiest, and praying, Father give us thy spirit. Then Jesus would breathe on them the Holy Ghost. In the breath was light, power and much love, joy and peace. Then I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne. They did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne and pray, My Father give us thy spirit. Then Satan would breathe on them an unholy influence. In it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children. I saw one after another leave the company who were praying to Jesus in the Holiest, go and join those before the throne and they at once received the unholy influence of Satan. {DS, March 14, 1846 par. 1}

     About four months since, I had a vision of events, all in the future. And I saw the time of trouble, such as never was,--Jesus told me it was the time of Jacob's trouble, and that we should be delivered out of it by the voice of God. Just before we entered it, we all received the seal of the living God. Then I saw the four Angels cease to hold the four winds. And I saw famine, pestilence and sword, nation rose against nation, and the whole world was in confusion. Then we cried to God for deliverance day and night till we began to hear the bells on Jesus' garment. And I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest, and as he came out we heard the tinkling of bells, and knew our High Priest was coming out. Then we heard the voice of God which shook the heavens and earth, and gave the 144,000 the day and hour of Jesus' coming. Then the saints were free, united and full of the glory of God, for he had turned their captivity. And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood and he laid off his priestly garment and put on his kingly robe, took his place on the cloud which carried him to the east where it first appeared to the saints on earth, a small black cloud, which was the sign of the Son of Man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days, the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet. Ellen G. Harmon {DS, March 14, 1846 par. 2}

"The leaven if godliness has not entirely lost its power. At the time when the danger and depression of the church are greatest, the little company who are standing in the light will be sighing and crying for the abominations that are done in the land. But MORE ESPECIALLY will their prayers arise in behalf of the church because ITS MEMBERS are doing after the manner of the world." Testimonies, vol. 5, 209, 210.

How is it that the church militant will receive the Holy Spirit when at the time its danger and depression is greatest (the time of trouble), its MEMBERS are doing after the manner of the world?

Calling the Church a Part of Babylon at the Present Time

All the quotes dealing with EGW stating not to call the SDA church Babylon are only in the year 1893.  Although brother N and O believed it some years prior to 1893, it was not until Stanton and others arose and proclaimed that the SDA church was Babylon in 1893 that sister White was forced to publicly deny that it was then Babylon.  There were 4 articles published in the Review and Herald back in September and October of 1893 to refute Stanton and the others, and most of the compilations, including Selected Messages and Testimony to Ministers, quote from these 4 articles.

These testimonies on not calling the SDA church Babylon are conditional and do not apply forever--no matter what the church does.  

"God's promises are all made upon conditions." Faith and Works, p 47.


"These promises of God to His people were on condition of their obedience." Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 3, p 270.


"The promises of God, which are given on condition of obedience, are for those who walk in the light of His holy word." Signs of the Times, Vol. 2, p 372.  


    "If they [God's people] did not keep His commandments, He would not--He could not--fulfill the rich promises which were given them on condition of obedience." Signs of the Times, Vol. 2, p 37.  


"God would in no wise excuse sin in a people who had been enlightened, even if He had, in their days of faithfulness and purity, loved them, and given them especial promises. These promises and blessings were always upon condition of obedience upon their part." Spirit of Prophecy, Vol. 2, p 54.  


    "God had given them [Jews] His gracious promise that they should become a peculiar treasure unto Him, on condition of obedience; but if they were disobedient He would reject them, and choose another people." Signs of the Times, Vol. 1, p 152.


The Jews were told by God that as long as the sun, moon, and stars were in the sky, that they would be His church and chosen people (see Jeremiah 31:35-37, 33:20-22). Yet the sun, moon and stars are still in the sky; but the Jewish temple was destroyed, and the Jews are no longer His chosen people! It was not the promise of God that was at fault; the Jews refused to obey God and His truth, and hence the promise could not be granted them. They forgot the "IF." If the Jews would obey God, then they would be His people, but if they continued in disobedience, then God would be obliged to set them aside and choose others to take their place and crown--which sadly is exactly what happened. ...same with the SDA church and people!  


    "...why is it that the judgment of God fell upon them [Jews] in so signal a manner? It was because they rejected the great light which had been given them from the time of their delivery from Egyptian bondage. It was because the Lord had revealed to them, through His prophets, and through holy men of old, His will, and they chose to walk in their own ways, and to follow their own will. Calamity overtook the Jews because they failed to keep the commandments of God. God had told them if they did not keep His commandments, He could not fulfill His covenant of promise, for this covenant was to be fulfilled only upon condition of obedience. The history of Israel should be to us a most solemn warning of the calamities that will overtake us if we are disobedient to God's commandments." Signs of the Times, Vol. 3, p 182.  


    "The promise of God to us is on condition of obedience, compliance with all his requirements." Testimonies, Vol. 2, p 146.  


So these testimonies against calling the SDA church Babylon are conditional, not unconditional. As long as the SDA church would fulfill her part of the covenant promise with God, then she would never become Babylon. But if she would refuse to fulfill her covenant promise with God, and chose to unite herself with the world, if she continued to reject the message of righteousness, then there would be nothing to stop her from becoming corrupt, a cage of every unclean and hateful bird, and Babylon. And this is exactly what we are told! 


    "The world must not be introduced into the church, and married to the church, forming a bond of unity. Through this means the church will become indeed corrupt, and as stated in Revelation, `A cage of every unclean and hateful bird' [Revelation 18:2]." Testimonies to Ministers, p 265. 


    This is why you will not find anywhere in the SOP that we are never to call the SDA church Babylon, but that the church was not to be called Babylon "at the present time" in 1893 (see Testimonies to Ministers, p 50).


If any SDA could see how deeply the Lord has shown this writer that the church has fulfilled and is fulfilling Ezekiel 8, they would not be looking for any Holy Spirit attending Operation Global Rain. There will be some semblance of Satan breathing on the New Movement that has removed God, but the abominations for which all the faithful are instructed to sigh and cry, will not be repented of.

God bless,