SDA Internet Group Therapy—Session #3

by Ron Beaulieu

Motto:

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;  He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,  Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." -1 Timothy 6:3-5

 

Click to go to our Home Page


 

Dear Reader,

Since Ulicia Unruh has made it her mission expose the errors of Robert Sessler, it becomes important that she face and answer her own errors and make proper amends for such which she has never done. Though Sessler’s errors are copious and it would be a monumental task to check them all out for contextual validity, the track record of one Ulicia Unruh is no better. Here is an account of her great errors regarding truth and the church temple she worships and defends with all the fierceness the Jews lauded to the worship and defense of their temple.

The intent for this exposure of errors is that Ulicia may repent of her own errors and remove the log camp from her own eyes before attacking others. That would be profitable therapy indeed.

I have added to some of my responses to her postings but have cut and pasted hers just as she stated them and one can look in the archives of the forum(s) involved to verify this fact.

Ron 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ulicia

To: DefendEGW@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 2:49 PM

Subject: [DefendEGW] Fw: [SDAIssues] Re: GROUPS


--- In
DefendEGW@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Beaulieu" <rsbeauli@t...
wrote:


Ulicia,
 
You wrote: Firstly, Jesus group was NOT separated from the "apostate organization".
 
 Ron responds: Will you take it from Ellen White?
 
"Christ was a protestant...The Reformers date back to Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the
reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the apostles." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 48, col. 2.

Ulicia wrote: Hmmm.. I see you didn't bother to consider the Bible record of Jesus involvement with the "Jewish church" of His day. You fail to realize that the disciples, after the resurrection went DAILY to the temple! You failed to see that the separation was not in the days of Judas.

Your quote reads:


Christ was a protestant. He protested against the formal worship of the Jewish nation, who rejected the counsel of God....

For me that is a classical "misapplication" of a quote without weighing it against other quotes by Ellen White, nor taking into consideration the progression of history.

Christ and His disciples were a group WITHIN the larger "church" for many years, even after Christ's death, before the separation was pretty much FORCED upon them. Like the reformers they sought
to "reform" the church until they were DRIVEN out.

"The Lord Jesus Christ came first to the Jewish nation.... He presented to them the field containing the hidden treasure, but they turned from it. RH 1894

Christ himself, in all his ministry, gave the Jewish nation the first opportunity to receive him as the Saviour. Upon the Jews was bestowed the honor of first hearing from the lips of Christ his message of salvation. The Lord Jesus gave a special and very wonderful gospel to the Jews. He regarded them as lost sheep, which he, as their Shepherd, came to seek and to save, gathering them out from the bypaths and the highways of sin and error, and bringing them back to his fold. {RH, January 6, 1903 par. 14}
 
Ulicia wrote: "But it is GOOD POINT about Judas--
You mean all the disciples weren't declared guilty and "spewed out" corporately on account of Judas sins?"
 
Ron responds: Will you take it from Ellen White?
 
"The plain straight testimony must live in the church, or the curse of God will rest upon His people as surely as it did upon ancient Israel because of their sins. God holds His people, as a body [corporately], responsible for the sins existing in individuals among them." Testimonies, vol. 3, p. 269.

Added note: Until Judas committed “open sin” betrayal, he was a tare--what Ellen White defined as an insincere believers (COL p. 71, last two paragraphs) whose motives would have to be judged in order to remove him/her. Jesus’ humanity did not judge motives, so He did not remove Judas, but certainly would have after Judas’ betrayal if Judas had not effectually removed himself by his timely death.

Ulicia wrote: The testimony must live in the church--
no one disputes that. Your position is that because it isn't alive in every church we must remove ourselves from the Seventh-day Adventist church. You (and others) have twisted the meaning of that verse.

It means that we as a body are to feel a responsibility and concern for the erring members and work for their restoration. The critics turn it around to mean, if there is any sin, act like the Pharisees and wrap your righteous robe about yourself and leave lest you get contaminated.

Ron responds: I take the statement just as it reads. The statement says nothing about the restoration of erring members. Ellen White said that open sin should be removed from the camp. She also said that “dumb-dog” watchmen would never again bark to show the House of Jacob its sins. That would preclude the removal of open sinners from the camp. What then? The curse of God rests upon His people just as surely as it did upon ancient Israel, and we become corporately responsible for the open sin(s). That is the reason for separation in Christ’s day. That is the reason for separation in the Reformation. That is the reason for separation in 1844. That is the reason for separation in every succeeding generation, DA 232. So nothing personal Ulicia, but I choose to take the lesson book of history and the clear testimony of Ellen White over and above your rationalization that contradicts both.

"The plain straight testimony must live in the church, or the curse of God will rest upon His people as surely as it did upon ancient Israel because of their sins. God holds His people, as a body [corporately], responsible for the sins existing in individuals among them." Testimonies, vol. 3, p. 269.
 
Ulicia wrote: And does that mean just because someone came up with a perverted "small group" idea, that all Seventh-day Adventists who form little study/prayer/witnessing groups within their churches
are following the "Babylonian model" NO INDEED -- most are NOT!
 
Ron responds: Ulicia is speaking of SDA church “cell groups” such as have been formed in all Babylonian churches. If you will investigate the origin of the plan for "cell groups" as adopted by New Movement Adventism, you will find that its origin is indeed from Babylon, and the thing that is wrong about it is that its originators make a rule that nothing controversial or divisive should be discussed. Our entire message is controversial. The three angel’s messages and the Midnight Cry of Matthew 25, is controversial.

Ulicia writes:
The assumption the critics make is that every time the church forms study/prayer/witnessing groups that they follow "a Babylonian formula". This is not at all true. It is merely a ploy to keep people from following inspired counsel that we ARE to form small study/ prayer witnessing groups.

It's like saying because Rome keeps Sunday therefore keeping any day is Babylonish, don't keep the 7th day either. Just because we are to avoid the counterfeit doesn't mean we condemn the true.

Ron responds: Ellen White certainly advocated small study groups, but not the kind Babylon has originated wherein one cannot discuss truths or doctrines that have controversial elements. SDA pioneers studied in small groups and they certainly got into controversy at times and according to Ellen White, had quite heated discussions for which they later had to apologize to one another.

I once attended one of the SDA “cell groups” led out by an SDA dentist. The topic of the human nature of Christ was brought up, and was immediately squelched by the dentist leader. He said that nothing controversial would be discussed in “his” group. This is what Babylon has decided will take place in SDA “cell groups.”

Ulicia wrote: Here was my original post--
Firstly, Jesus group was NOT separated from the "apostate organization". Doesn't the Bible say it was Jesus custom to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath day. (Just because Nazareth reacted badly doesn't mean Christ gave up the custom) Doesn't the Bible
show Jesus attending the Passover feasts, the feast of trumpets etc.etc.? YES! Jesus' GROUP was a group within the Jewish community!

But it is GOOD POINT about Judas--
You mean all the disciples weren't declared guilty and "spewed out" corporately on account of Judas sins?

And does that mean just because someone came up with a perverted "small group" idea, that all Seventh-day Adventists who form little study/prayer/witnessing groups within their churches are following the "Babylonian model" NO INDEED -- most are NOT.

Ron responds:

Interesting you say “most” are not. What do you know of most of the groups?

The Temple worship situation was a far cry from what it is today. Josephus, the historian, says there were no pews in the Synagogues and that when a man entered the Temple, he was immediately asked if he had a message from the Lord. And if he did, he could give it. That is not the case today. I have advocated to folk on this forum and my own church group: Go to church and warn, but give the full warning. Warn of ALL the abominations and see how long you last. Do it with all the love the Holy Spirit can muster within, and see how long you last.

You said that Jesus never separated and left, remember? You said:

You wrote: Firstly, Jesus group was NOT separated from the "apostate organization".

I was refuting your statement. I was not attempting to give the history of Christ's ministry to the Jews.

Forget separation in the days of Judas, which has nothing to do with out discussion, for he was just a tare in the church of Christ, and there will be tares in any church group until the harvest, COL, p. 70. But consider that there was separation long before Christ and the disciples separated and started home churches. I have traced the following account back to the time of the rule of Eli and his sons:

"The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding that this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.

You say: "Christ and His disciples were a group WITHIN the larger "church" for many years, even after Christ's death, before the separation was pretty much FORCED upon them. Like the reformers they sought to "reform" the church until they were DRIVEN out."

I respectfully disagree and accept the following words of Ellen White:

You say the disciples were FORCED out. Ellen White says that came out. I choose to believe Ellen White. 

"Christ was a protestant...The Reformers date back to Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the apostles." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 48, col. 2. 

Paul left 

"And as they persisted in their rejection of the gospel the apostle (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space for three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus." Acts, 19:8, 9.  

Paul was not FORCED OUT either. He “departed and separated his disciples.” 

 "The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding that this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.  

No one FORCED the faithful Jews way back in the time of Shiloh! 

The following statement stays that Jesus “gathered out” those who should carry the gospel to the world. 

 "The Sanhedrin had rejected Christ's message and was bent upon His death therefore Jesus departed from Jerusalem, from the priests, the temple, the religious leaders, the people who had been instructed in the law, and turned to another class to proclaim His message, and to gather out those who should carry the gospel to all nations.

As the light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeeding generation. Again and again the history of Christ's withdrawal from Judea has been repeated. When the Reformers preached the word of God, they had no thought of separating themselves from the established church but the religious leaders would not tolerate the light, and those that bore it were forced to seek another class, who were longing for the truth. In our day few of the professed followers of the Reformers are actuated by their spirit. Few are listening for the voice of God, and ready to accept truth in whatever guise it may be presented. Often those who follow in the steps of the Reformers are forced to turn away from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the word of God. And many times those who are seeking for light are by the same teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience." E.G. White, Desire of Ages, 232.

The only reason reformers are “forced” to turn away from the churches they love is in order to be able to declare the plain teachings of the word of God. If they would remain silent and go along with the apostasies of the leaders, there would be no FORCING of anything!

Ron says: Ok, go to church and warn them, but if you give them ALL THE WARNING MESSAGE, in love, tell me how long you last. I have no problem with going among them for as long as you can last while giving ALL the warning of ALL the abominations. Please remember that I said this.

But also remember the fact that Jesus and the disciples organized home churches and the disciples collected the tithe that had been laid in store for them every week.

Scripture on Home Churches

Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Act 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Act 16:40 And they went out of the prison, and entered into [the house of] Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.

Act 18:7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain [man's] house, named Justus, [one] that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

Rom 16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my well beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1Cr 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1Cr 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

1Cr 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Ron continues: It is the leaders that have committed the apostasy and members err by following and supporting them. By all means write all the letters you can in order to restore the leaders, but Ellen White says that it is impossible to remain pure while uniting with the corrupt. She said that it is impossible for the wheat to mature among thorns, open sinning Omega Apostates. If you can mature among them, in spite of Ellen White's statement to the contrary, by all means go and be among the corrupt.

Ellen White said that the omega of apostasy would wax stronger until Jesus comes and that nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the New Movement. If you think you can prove Ellen White wrong, then try it!

In the Alpha of Apostasy she said to take the young people as far away from the Apostasy as possible. What would she say in the Omega? She did not live during the Omega.

By the way Ulicia, I notice that over a number of days now, you have refused to answer the questions:

What is the Omega of Apostasy?

When did it begin?

How long does it last?

I would ask the same question of John, Karl, Judy and all members of this forum. I fact I did ask this question of all before, and no one has responded with any correct answers.

Ron

End of first from Ulicia

Ulicia wrote on Monday, August 08, 2005 8:17 AM DefendEGW Group

Ron,

The followers of Christ WERE IN JERUSALEM when the Holy Spirit descended upon them.

Ron responds: There were two headquarters in Jerusalem. Headquarters of the apostate Jews and Headquarters for Christ’s Christian church.

"In obedience to Christ's command, they waited in Jerusalem for the promise of the Father--the outpouring of the Spirit. They did not wait in idleness. The record says that they were "continually in the temple, praising and blessing God." Luke 24:53. They also met together to present their requests to the Father in the name of Jesus....Putting away all differences, all desire for the supremacy, they came close together in Christian fellowship, they drew nearer and nearer to God." Acts of the Apostles pages 35, 37.

Yes, they were in Jerusalem!
Were they in a room in the temple, or in a room NEAR the temple-- the Bible does not say, it only says they were all with one accord in one place, when the Holy Spirit descended and "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues."

Ron responds: The Bible says:

Jhn 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

Ulicia speaking: Now was this a babbling of tongues amongst themselves in some "separate room" apart from the temple where they "kept themselves separate" from the "apostate church"?

Not at all -- for when the "sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were astonished, because everyone heard them speak in
his own language. They were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is
it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?... 

Ron responds:

Then Peter "stood up and raised his voice" and preached to them a sermon of "repent and let everyone be baptized in the name of Jesus"
and baptized 3000 people.

This was hardly a "separatist" meeting -- no, not at all. They were where the crowds heard "the sound" and were "astonished" and came to "listen".

Ron responds: Yes, it was a separatist meeting! Jhn 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

 "Christ was a protestant...The Reformers date back to Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the apostles." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 48, col. 2.  

Paul left 

"And as they persisted in their rejection of the gospel the apostle (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space for three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus." Acts, 19:8, 9. 

"Fearing that the faith of the believers would be endangered by continued association with these opposers of the truth, Paul separated from them, and gathered the disciples into a distinct body." E.G. White, Acts of the Apostles, p. 286. 

--- In DefendEGW@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Beaulieu" <rsbeauli@t...
wrote:

Ulicia,
 
So, according to you, all the true Christian followers of Christ had to be in the apostate Temple system to be sealed? They were sealed with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Were they sealed at the Temple? Or were the disciples hiding from the Jews in some man's upper room?

I submit that no one was sealed at the Temple where the curtain was rent in twain at Christ’s death! God had departed.

Eze 9:3 ¶ And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side;
 
Ron

Interesting Contribution by David Roush:

----- Original Message -----

From: David Roush

To: Ron Beaulieu

Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 2:35 PM

Subject: Re: Fw: Ulicia's Encounter With the Two-Edged Sword

Brother Ron

Ulicia, wrote:

"Yes, they were in Jerusalem!
Were they in a room in the temple, or in a room NEAR the temple--the Bible does not say, it only says they were all with one accord in one place, when the Holy Spirit descended and "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues."

"Now was this a babbling of tongues amongst themselves in some "separate room" apart from the temple where they "kept themselves separate" from the "apostate church"?

This is interesting,

1) It does not matter if they were near the temple for GOD had left the temple! The temple was just another building. Yes the Disciples went to the temple as was their custom and also to teach and to preach. But God tore the curtain when Christ died! So what does it matter they may or may not have been near this temple?

2) Yes they were separate from the Temple because the temple was no longer the house of God. We the waiting Saints are the Temple of God bought and paid for at a GREAT price!

3) Yes this apostate church did lose many from its fold that day and ever since then as well.

4) I could never call the gift of tongues "babbling"!

5) Yes they were separate from the church as should we be if that church is in any state of APOSTASY! I can not understand how and why during the last three (3) GC Sessions 1995, 2000, 2005 the "HOLY SEE" has been represented? If this alone does not show that the GC has joined hands with the Whore then what will?
David

Amen David! Excellent points. Thanks for coming to the help of the Lord's true cause!

Ron 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Beaulieu

To: SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 5:26 PM

Subject: Ulicia Vs. Scripture

Ulicia,

You wrote: "Yes, they were in Jerusalem!
Were they in a room in the temple, or in a room NEAR the temple--
the Bible does not say, it only says they were all with one accord in one place, when the Holy Spirit descended and "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues.

Now was this a babbling of tongues amongst themselves in some "separate room" apart from the temple where they "kept themselves separate" from the "apostate church"?

Ron Responds: Ulicia, what do these verses say?

Acts 2


1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind,
and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance

The answer to your question : " Now was this a babbling of tongues amongst themselves in some "separate room" apart from the temple where they "kept themselves separate" from the "apostate church"?

Yes, except they were not babbling. They were speaking in different languages. They had been in a separate room apart from the Temple, where they kept themselves separated for fear of the Jews, the apostate church. 

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Ulicia
 To: DefendEGW@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 8:46 PM
 Subject: [DefendEGW] Re: Come out of Jerusalem?
 
No, there is no call to come out of Jerusalem in Ezekiel 9 You are correct-- the man in LINEN GOES through the midst of the  city, through the midst of Jerusalem, it doesn't say He by passes Jerusalem and sets a mark on people who have come out of
Jerusalem.

Ron responds: The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was an unmistakable fulfillment of Ezekiel 9. There was not one true Christian who was sealed at the apostate Temple of the Jews. The disciples had been gathered out. Paul had left. True prophets had told the people when to flee the city of Jerusalem, but they had long fled the apostate church at Jerusalem. Ezekiel 22:17-31 says that the dross (tares) was gathered into the midst’s of Jerusalem for burning and so it was. End Ron’s comment.
 
Ulicia continues: In Ezekiel there are many calls to REPENTANCE (14:16), "Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not  be your ruin." (18:30)  Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have  transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: (18:31) TURN to the Lord, turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house  of Israel? (33:11) Forsake your evil ways.
 
Those are the calls, Not-- come out of Jerusalem stop being a part of the house of Israel. The call is for revival and reformation. Another point is we are not to insist on absolute literalism here.

Ron’s comments: Ezekiel wrote many centuries before the destruction of Jerusalem. He wrote long before the probation of the Jews was closed at the stoning of Stephen. He wrote long before the Lord’s supper and the assembling of the disciples in the upper room and the Day of Pentecost. Thus, there was time for the Jews to repent, but they did not.

Ellen White said that Ezekiel 9 will be literally repeated again. There have been many calls for repentance to the Adventist church.  None have been heeded. End Ron’s comment.
 
Ulicia (Cont) We know the Man in linen is Christ We realize the "mark" is the seal of God, the seal that we ARE WITH CHRIST, worshipping the One Who created the heavens and the earth, giving glory to Him in all we do.
 
The "sighing and crying" isn't some "work" we do to earn, or qualify for the seal, it is the obvious result of being united with Christ, partaking of His righteousness and His love for the people for whom He died, and feeling heart breaking concern for the way people are rejecting LIFE and turning to false gods. Concern for HIS CHURCH!

Ron comments: There was a Day of Atonement for the Jews as there was a Day of Pentecost. On the Day of Atonement, all who did not agonize and sorely repent and put sin out of the life were put out of the camp. We are in the antitypical Day of Atonement. We are to sigh and cry (agonize) for the sins in our own lives and those of the church and put them from the camp. End Comment.
 
Ulicia (Cont) Joel 2:17 "Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people,  O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where [is] their God?"

Ron comments: Circa A.D. 27-70, there were two very different porches and altars. One was in the Christian church of Christ, with headquarters in Jerusalem, and the other at the apostate Temple.
 
 --- In DefendEGW@yahoogroups.com, ANANYUMOUS wrote:


Ulicia,
 
  I agree there are big problems in the Church, much apostasy also but there are many good and faithful members, I have no doubt that the
destruction will begin at God's sanctuary, The SDA Church.
 
The man clothed with linen goes through the midst of Jerusalem (the Church) and sets a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that
cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof (the ones who get this mark are the ones who are still in the Church sighing and
Crying for all the abominations) I don't see a call out message in Ezekiel 9.
 
Is this your understanding of it? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Anonymous  

Monday, August 01, 2005 4:14 PM SDAIssues forum.


Ulicia wrote:
 
Anonymous--
  I wish all the accusations were as easy to debunk -- many can be debunked but big problems remain in the church. 
  
  "The tares will be shaken out -- they will denounce the name -- they will become nominal first day Adventists, when the crises comes, they may well take many assets with them."

Ron responds: Above, Ulicia states one of the most cherished errors ever embraced by professing Seventh-day Adventism—that the tares will be shaken out of the SDA church militant to become nominal first day Adventists when the crisis comes.

The truth is that the SDA church militant will keep going after the Sunday Law arrives. The leaders have already instructed the people to keep Sunday when that time comes. How can you know this for sure?

1.      Ellen White says that Ezekiel 9 will be literally fulfilled again. She says that Ezekiel 9 occurs at the beginning of the general destruction. Then she says that Ezekiel 9 begins “at His Sanctuary, the church, those who have been privileged with great light, Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211.

2.      Begin at My Sanctuary -- "Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus 'Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together." E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211.            

3.      "In the very courts of the temple, scenes will be enacted that few realize. God's people will be proved and tested, that He may discern 'between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not.' Vengeance will be executed against those who sit in the gate, deciding what the people should have and what they should not have. These take away the key of knowledge. They refuse to enter in themselves, and those who would enter in they hinder. These bear not the seal of the living God. All who now occupy responsible positions should be solemnly and terribly afraid lest in this time they shall be found as unfaithful stewards." E.G. White, Manuscript 15, 1886, Paulson Collection, p. 55.

4.      The “temple,” His sanctuary, the church, will have to be around at the time when the general destruction begins in order for Ezekiel 9 to begin there. But how can a church not take the mark of the beast, not buy and sell, and still be around at the beginning of the general destruction? Here is how: "The Lord has a controversy with his professed people in these last days. In this controversy men in responsible positions will take a course directly opposite to that pursued by Nehemiah. They will not only ignore and despise the Sabbath themselves, but they will try to keep it from others by burying it beneath the rubbish of custom and tradition. In churches and in large gatherings in the open air, ministers, will urge upon the people the necessity of keeping the first day of the week." E.G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 1, p. 405, col. 3.

5.      Ezekiel 22:17-31, says that the tares (dross) will be gathered into the midst’s of Jerusalem, the church, for burning.

6.      Ellen White said that the world and the church are the field. Tares are gathered into the field for burning. Ellen White agreed with Ezekiel: "The 'field,' Christ said, 'is the world.' But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world. The parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God, His work of salvation of men and this work is accomplished through the church. True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the garner of God." Christ's Object Lessons, p. 70.

7.      Ezekiel 5:1-3, written more for us than the Jews of old, says that there remainder of the church (Jerusalem), is destroyed after a small number are taken in His skirts. This is the saved remnant.

8.      Isaiah 37:31 and 32, was written more for us than the Jews.

9.      Ellen White said that the omega of apostasy would wax stronger until Jesus comes.

10.  Ellen White said that nothing will stand in the way of the New Movement. She said the omega would surely come. Just as surely, nothing will be allowed to stand in its way.

11.  Ellen White called A.D. 70 a prefigure, p. 25, The Great Controversy. That prefigure symbolizes the destruction of the world, but the destruction begins at His Sanctuary, His church.

12.  Isaiah 4:1-4 is of end-time context. Seven women symbolizes all formally organized churches. So the following statement prophesying the end of the church applies especially to the SDA church to whom the Everlasting Gospel was commissioned.

The Prophesied Fall of The Professing Seventh-day Adventist Church   

"Jesus sends  HIS PEOPLE a message of warning to prepare them for his coming. To the prophet John was made known the closing work in the great plan of man's redemption. He beheld an angel flying 'in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his Judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters [See this footnote at the bottom of the page in the book: [Rev. 14:6, 7.].

The angel represented in prophecy as delivering this message,  symbolizes a class of faithful men, who, obedient to the promptings of God's Spirit and the teachings of his word, proclaim this warning to the inhabitants of earth. This message was not to be committed to the religious leaders of the people. They had failed to preserve their connection with God, and had REFUSED THE LIGHT FROM HEAVEN therefore they WERE NOT of the number described by the apostle Paul: 'But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day we are not of the night nor of darkness' [1 Thess. 5:4, 5]. 

The watchmen upon the walls of Zion should be the first to catch the tidings of the Saviour's advent, the first to lift their voices to proclaim him near, the first to warn the people to prepare for his coming. But they were at ease, dreaming of peace and safety, while the people were asleep in their sins. Jesus saw HIS CHURCH, like the barren fig-tree, covered with pretentious leaves, yet destitute of precious fruit. There was a boastful observance of the forms of religion, while the spirit of true humility, penitence and faith--which alone could render the service acceptable to God--was lacking. Instead of the graces of the Spirit, there were manifested pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, oppression. A BACKSLIDING CHURCH closed their eyes to the signs of the times. God did nor forsake them, or suffer his faithfulness to fail but they departed from him, and SEPARATED THEMSELVES from his love. As they  REFUSED TO COMPLY WITH THE CONDITIONS, his promises were NOT FULFILLED to them."  E.G. White, The Spirit of Prophecy,  vol. 4, pp. 199-200 [The 1884 edition of The Great Controversy, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH TESTIMONIES, VOL 4]. END FULL STATEMENT 199, 200.

End Ron’s comment.

Ulicia (Cont) We are not to abandon ship --the sharks in the water are worse than the wolves on board. Monday, August 01, 2005 4:14 PM SDAIssues forum.

Ron responds: What does God say? Isa 9:16  For the leaders of this people cause [them] to err; and [they that are] led of them [are] destroyed.

You can believe Ulicia or God. Strangely, most SDA’s will believe Ulicia. End Ron’s comment.


Ulicia (Cont) The message to run to the hills when the Sunday laws come, is NOT the same as the message being preached in those abominable websites that say we are to denounce Seventh-day Adventism NOW and leave the church. Those are two different messages. To unite them is not being truthful, nor is it true that God has been removed from our churches -- Monday, August 01, 2005 4:14 PM SDAIssues forum.

Ron comments: The call out message of Jesus was different than the fleeing to the mountains of Pella in A.D. 66, 3 ½ years before Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed in A.D. 70. Leaving the apostate Jewish church from A.D. 27 (the disciples) to A.D. 66, was a different message from when to flee to the mountains. Ulicia is right. Fleeing an apostate church is different from fleeing to the mountains at the time of the Sunday Law. But leaving apostate churches has occurred in every succeeding generation, DA 232. End Ron’s comment.

Ulicia (Cont) Ron confuses the sign to head for the hills, with a message of his own to NOW denounce the Seventh-day Adventist church and call people out. Monday, August 01, 2005 4:14 PM SDAIssues forum.

Ron comments: Ron has confused nothing. It is Ulicia who confuses the Sunday law fleeing with fleeing an apostate church whenever that occurs because the bride of Christ is not defiled with women (apostate churches) Revelation 14:1-4. End Ron’s comment.

Ulicia (Cont) Those are two different messages.
To unite them is not being truthful, nor is it true that God has been removed from our churches –

Ron comments: They certainly are two different messages and Ron has not united them. He has pointed out over and over on his Website that they are not one and the same, and that true reformers have left fallen apostate churches in every succeeding generation, DA 232.


I just came from a powerful weekend of meetings in our church -- nothing omega or apostate, but powerful turning to the Lord in consecration, thanksgiving and surrender. Revival and reformation was presented, revival without reformation was declared as false revival... It was the straight truth being preached from our pulpit!

The time to head for the hills is not yet. The time now is to stay in the church and preach the gospel truths --even Ron's "type" confirms that.

Ulicia wrote: The sign to flee to the hills has not yet come.

Ron responds: I have never said that it is time to leave for the hills. I have taught for decades that Christ, as the first act of His ministry, circa A.D. 27, “gathered out” those who would give the gospel to the world, Desire of Ages, p. 232, and that this separation was not related to the abomination of desolation, or the time to flee Jerusalem, which occurred in the summer and fall of A.D. 66.

Any valid revival and reformation would include forsaking of any liaison with Babylon via ecumenical membership. The church admitted in the Adventist Review in the latter 1980’s that it has been a MEMBER of the Hungarian Council of Free Churches for over 30 years. This was just after Dr. B.B. Beach told me over the phone that the church had never been a MEMBER of any National or World Council of Churches.

Ecumenical liaison with Babylon is just one of the many sins that the church has committed that would have to be forsaken were that possible after straying from the Midnight Cry lighted pathway. WTLF, p. 14. There, it says that such straying off the Midnight Lighted Path makes it IMPOSSIBLE to get back on the path again.

The church would also have to repent of teaching another false gospel alongside the true one. God says to accurse such, and the Bible meaning of that word accursed is anathema. Anathema means doomed. It is unpardonable sin to teach a false gospel after knowing the true gospel. It is stepping off the Midnight Cry Lighted pathway to teach a false gospel as the New Theology of the New Movement SDA church teaches along with the true gospel. The false gospel faction should have been removed from the church! Now, the entire membership is responsible for tolerating and/or supporting a false gospel. That is anathema.

For Ulicia Unruh to think that I confuse the time to flee to the mountains with the time to flee apostasy demonstrates her complete lack of spiritual discernment as to what I have taught since the inception of my ministry decades ago. But it tells more than that. It tells that Ulicia does not discern that true reformers have left fallen churches in every succeeding generation, DA, 232, without any attending fleeing to the mountains; without any attending fulfillment of Matthew 24:15, 16. It is thus she who confuses the conditions of fleeing apostasy with those of fleeing at the time of the sitting of the abomination of desolation. There are very different reasons for both, whereas she seems to think that the only condition under which SDA’s are to flee is when the abomination of desolation or the Sunday Law arrives. Many SDA’s believe that cherished error. But of course, Ulicia, fleeing apostasy is a whole different matter from fleeing to the mountains at the time of the abomination of desolation sitting in the Holy Place.

Ron

To be continued