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Gary and all forum members,
Gary and all forum members,
This is without a doubt one of the most serious posts I have ever made to this forum. Please study it carefully and after prayer.
Please read this with the most careful attention you have ever read anything:
Let me demonstrate how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in regard to the below posting by Wendell.
According to Ezekiel 20:34, the true remnant flees Jerusalem (Isaiah 38:31, 32), and is taken to the wilderness where according to Ellen White the church will operate from wilderness outposts to give the Loud Cry. In this regard, the bad are shaken out of the remnant, by the bride, the 144,000 who are translated. I should you from another document that the remnant is the church triumphant that is translated without seeing death. Here it is again:
"The woman is a symbol of the church, and the remnant of the church represents the Christians of the last generation of men, living just prior to the second advent. The dragon makes war on these for keeping the commandments of God, Sabbath and all, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ, which, according to the inspired definition of chap. xix, 10, 'is the spirit of prophecy.' Here, then, are the causes of the dragon's warfare upon the remnant. They teach the observance of the ten commandments, and the revival of the gifts, and acknowledge the gift of prophecy among them. When the Devil got one foot upon the fourth commandment, and the other upon the gifts planted in the Christian church by Jesus Christ, then his satanic majesty was filled with revengeful delight. But when the remnant, whom God designs to fit for translation to Heaven without seeing death, 'ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein,' then the dragon is wroth, and makes war on them.
"The true spirit of the dragonic host, which is already being somewhat developed, is vividly described in Isa. xxx, 8-13, as being manifested just prior to the sudden destruction of those who hate the pure testimony, and love smooth and deceitful things." E. G. White, Spiritual Gifts, Vol. III, 26, 27.
See brother Gary, the remnant is translated without seeing death. That is the SDA church triumphant. She is taken out into the wilderness in the time of trouble, and from outposts there gives the last message. Those who reject her message are SHAKEN OUT OF HER--THE REMNANT--THOSE WHO ARE TRANSLATED WITHOUT SEEING DEATH. All SDA's who are saved ARE NOT translated without seeing death. How about Ellen and James White? How about all the faithful SDA's who have died since 1844? This is who and how the bad are shaken from the remnant church--Zion. They are shaken out of God's kingdom Zion, Heb. 12:22, 23, by His earthly representative bride. She represents the heavenly kingdom church of Hebrews 12: Please read that verse.
And it is this church out in the wilderness that becomes surrounded by the enemy and APPEARS AS ABOUT TO FALL, but does not because the guns of the enemy trained upon them break says Ellen White. This is the full context of the church that appears as about to fall. Ellen White proves this when she likens it to the time of Jacob's trouble--that is when it occurs. That does not refer to the church militant at all. It is the final generation REMNANT that appear as about to fall because they are surrounded and hear the threats of their foes. But they are delivered and you can read all about this in the book you distribute--The Great Controversy. Here is her qualifying statement you, Wendell and the entire church militant need so disparately:
It is During the Time of Jacob's Trouble That the Church Triumphant Appears as About to Fall but Does not Fall
"The people of God will then be plunged into those scenes of affliction and distress described by the prophet as the time of Jacob's trouble.... Jacob's night of anguish, when he wrestled in prayer for deliverance from the hand of Esau (Genesis 32:24-30), represents the experience of God's people in the time of trouble....Jacob's company, unarmed and defenseless, SEEMED ABOUT TO FALL HELPLESS VICTIMS OF VIOLENCE AND SLAUGHTER." E.G. White, The Great Controversy, (1911 edition), p. 616.
It is this church in the wilderness that thousands will come in a day, while many will leave. This will be during the swelling of the Loud Cry. Remember the thousands that came on the Day of Pentecost. The Loud Cry is that same period of time in antitype. Please look up all Ellen White says about wilderness outposts during the time of trouble.
The apostate SDA church has removed God and will drink of the wine and tell others to keep Sunday sacred. They have already returned to the iniquities of their forefathers by teaching Calvinistic doctrines. Dr. Ralph Larson has pointed this out. Their books of a New Order teach the errors of our forefathers, the fallen churches. Vance Ferrell points out all the books of a New Order on his Website.
If, as Wendell says, the bad are shaken out, the great all unanswerable question is: Then why does the Ezekiel 9 slaughter of men, maidens and little children begin at His Sanctuary, the House of Jacob, Jerusalem, the professing SDA Church. Ask Wendell this question. Then ask him why Ezekiel 22:17-31 says that the dross will be gathered into the midst of Jerusalem, the church. Then ask him this: If the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, was a PREFIGURE TYPE, The Great Controversy, p. 25, of Ezekiel 9, and Ezekiel 9 will be LITERALLY fulfilled again, who fits the type of A.D. 70, considering that conflagration involved God's chosen people? Who are considered His chosen people in the antitype?
Judgment begins at the house of God. Ezekiel 5:9-16 is the humiliation nominal professing SDA's will endure just before they are destroyed. They are destroyed separately by Babylon before Babylon is destroyed. The men with the slaughtering weapons in Ezekiel 9 comprise Babylon. They are the ones who surround the remnant out in the wilderness just before the remnant is delivered. Read all about it in the final chapters of The Great Controversy. But they are not allowed to kill the remnant, while all who remain at the church structures around the world, thinking like the Jews did in A.D. 70, that they were the people of God, and the enemy would never be able to penetrate their gates, will be slaughtered. They will not flee because the leaders will tell them there is no need to flee. just like the Jewish leaders told the Jews in A.D. 70, Chapter 1, The Great Controversy. They told the Jews that the Romans would never penetrate their city gates.
Wendell, you ask:
"The obvious question then is this: where in the Bible or in EGW's writings does it say that the Seventh-day Adventist will EVER combine with the state and persecute those who keep the commandments? We know that the Protestant Churches in the New World will combine with the state and persecute, and the Catholics will also do that in the Old World as well. But I have NEVER seen any statement in the Bible or the SOP that indicates that the SDA Church will do this. Ellen White tells us that many will leave the SDA Church at the end, and many more will join at the end as they realize this is the last opportunity for salvation."
"I saw the nominal church and nominal Adventists, like Judas, would betray us to the Catholics to obtain their influence to come against the truth.The saints then will be an obscure [hidden] people, little known to the Catholics; but the churches and nominal Adventists who know of our faith and customs (for they hate us on account of the Sabbath, for they could not refute it) will betray the saints and report them to the Catholics as those who disregard the institutions of the people; that is, that they keep the Sabbath and disregard Sunday.
Then the Catholics bid the Protestants to go forward, and issue a decree that all who will not observe the first day of the week, instead of the seventh day, shall be slain. And the Catholics, whose numbers are large, will stand by the Protestants. The Catholics will give their power to the image of the beast. And the Protestants will work as their mother worked before them to destroy the saints. But before their decree bring or bear fruit, the saints will be delivered by the Voice of God. Then I saw that Jesus' work in the sanctuary will soon be finished. And after His work there is finished, He will come to the door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the Scape Goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues will come upon the wicked, and they do not come till Jesus puts on that garment, and takes Hs place upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling, the Scape Goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that leads him. If he should effect his escape, Israel would lose their lives. I saw that it would take time to lead away the Scape Goat into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put on his head.<BR>
The great white cloud I saw was not the holy place, but entirely separate from the holy and most holy place, entirely separate from the sanctuary.
Then the angel repeated these words, and said, 'This is the time spoken of in Isaiah. He saw that there was not man, and wondered that there was no intercessor. He had no mediator between God and man, and these plagues could be withheld no longer, for Jesus had ceased to plead for Israel, and they were covered with the covering of the Almighty God, and they could live in the sight of a holy God, and those who were not covered, the plagues fell upon them, for they had nothing to shelter or protect them from the wrath of God." E.G. White, Dorchester, Maine, October 23, 1850, Spalding--Magan's Unpublished Mss. Testimonies, pp. 1, 2.
Gary, I have no ill feelings toward you. I know what you did to me is wrong, but I forgive you even if you continue to have ill will toward me. There are good answers that many cannot see for one reason or another. I pray that you and your wife will pray very seriously over what I present above. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
Sent:Wednesday, December 22, 2004 5:15 PM
Subject:[SDAIssues] What constitutes the fall of Babylon? Does it apply to the SDA Church?
[sdaglobal] Fw: What constitutes the fall of Babylon? Does it apply to the SDA Church?
Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:13:41 -0800
SDA Global Forum"<email@example.com>
I disagree with lightbearer that we are to come out of the SDA Church. I do not disagree with him that there are problems in the Church and there is an element of corporate responsibility that certainly is to be considered. However, Ellen White plainly tells us in unmistakeable terms that in the last days those who do not serve God in their hearts will separate themselves from the SDA Church and not the other way around. She says a huge company will come into the church to replace those who leave. She also says that by this process, the church will be purified of sin. Thus, there is NO NEED to leave the SDA Church - and would be a serious mistake to do so, for it would mean that we join with the wicked. However, she also says that we are to pray not only about our own sins, but also for the sins being committed in the church - or else we won't be sealed by God.
But in all the argumentation that has gone on about this, there has been the underlying definition by lightbearer that the SDA Church is part of Babylon because of the sins within. If the SDA Church is part of Babylon, then it too will fall in the eyes of heaven, but if this is not true, then it will not fall. Thus, we need to study the Bible and find out exactly what constitutes the fall of Babylon.
Revelation 14 says some things that are key to understanding the fall of Babylon. Here is the second angel's message:
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Why is Babylon fallen? Because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication!
Now, when most people read that, they attempt to figure out the meaning of the wine and usually find that it means false teachings, so they concentrate on this idea. While it is true that wine can be a symbol of false teachings, here it is part of a phrase, not a symbol by itself, so the idea that wine is a symbol of false teachings here is misleading in this situation. Wine as false doctrine is not the symbolism intended here. It specifically says the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. What on earth is the wine of the wrath of her fornication?
I used to wonder what this phrase meant, until I began to compare it to phrases that occur later in Revelation. The first clue to understanding this phase is these 2 verses:
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
In verse 10, it is said that those who worship the beast or his image will drink of the wine of the wrath of God AND they will be burned up in hell. Two different things happen to them.
But what is this drinking of the wine of the wrath of God?
The clue to this is found in the fifth angels message. Here are the verses that help one understand this concept:
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Then add to this the following verses from Revelation 15 and 16:
Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
The verses from Revelation 15 and 16 make it abundantly clear that the "wrath of God" is the seven last plagues. Revelation 15 is simply telling us a symbolic summary story of the seven last plagues, while Revelation 15 and 16 tell us the details. But most importantly, it makes clear that the "wrath of God" is symbolic of punishment because of failure to obey God.
This is the clue to understanding the fall of Babylon. The second angel's message tells us that Babylon "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication", which is nearly identical in structure to that of the third angel's message that says "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God". The third angel's message tells us that those who worship the beast or his image will receive the seven last plagues and will be burned up in hell, or in other words, it tells us that they will be punished because of failure to obey God. So, logically, to drink the wine of the wrath of her fornication also is a clear threat of punishment for failure to obey Babylon. The second and third angels' messages says they "drink of the wine of the wrath " and "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath ", phrases which clearly are very nearly identical and clearly are related to the idea of punishment because the wrath of God phrase is punishment. But how and why does this happen in the second angel's message? That is revealed in the last part of the phrase - "her fornication". This leads to the beast formula, which is that beast = church + state as is stated in Revelation 13:5-7 and also in Revelation 17:1-2. In Revelation 17:1-2, it clearly tells us that the scarlet beast is the woman combined with the kings of the earth, which is the same as church and state combined. Thefore, there is punishment or persecution because of failure to obey the beast just like there is punishment from God for failure to obey God.
Now, what this all means is this: the fall of Babylon is NOT complete UNTIL the churches and states combine and then make war against the people of God, thereby bringing back the persecution of past ages.
Revelation 14:12 describes those who go through this time of persecution, and says this:
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
What is the source of this patience? In the face of persecution, they know that the persecutors are going to get back everything they have given out and more - double punishment for the persecutors will receive both the seven last plagues AND hell. Plus, those described in verse 12 know what is in store for them if they remain faithful. But note that the first angel's message includes a call to Sabbath keeping, so that is clearly a part of the commandments these people will be keeping.
The obvious question then is this: where in the Bible or in EGW's writings does it say that the Seventh-day Adventist will EVER combine with the state and persecute those who keep the commandments? We know that the Protestant Churches in the New World will combine with the state and persecute, and the Catholics will also do that in the Old World as well. But I have NEVER seen any statement in the Bible or the SOP that indicates that the SDA Church will do this. Ellen White tells us that many will leave the SDA Church at the end, and many more will join at the end as they realize this is the last opportunity for salvation.
Since there is no statement that the SDA Church will ever combine with the state, the logical conclusion is this: the SDA Church is NOT Babylon in spite of the assertions to the contrary. It is not biblically supported nor is it supported by the SOP.
The Bible is the final authority on this matter so rules over the SOP or any other source.
In addition, we have the statements of EGW that Gary compiled about what constitutes Babylon. Since the SDA Church has NEVER adopted those viewpoints and NEVER WILL, the obvious conclusion is that the SDA Church CANNOT BE and NEVER WILL BE Babylon, regardless of the fact that we know it is far from perfect. To claim otherwise is to claim one knows better than God himself, for he has spoken through the Bible and the SOP to instruct us about this.
Now, it is true that the church has problems. Nobody would question that who is informed. Does that mean we should come out of it? No. Jesus made it clear when he was on earth that he recognized that there were problems in the Jewish "church" of His time on earth, but he still instructed the people to obey the religious authorities (but also told them not to do the same practices as the leaders) and even declared to the Samaritan woman that salvation was of the Jews. This in spite of the problems in the church of the time. Thus, by His example, even though He knew there were problems (which I am sure He knew better than we ever could), He instructed the people to stay in the church of the time. Later, by persecution, they were forced out. But until that time, His instructions were that they were to stay inside the church. Should we do any different? I think not. To claim otherwise is to claim that we know better than God. Are you willing to say that you know better than God on this?
Therefore, I conclude that there is no reason to believe these assertions. Consequently, I see no further need to entertain these ideas, at least for myself. Others may if they wish, but I have no further interest in believing them. The Bible is abundantly clear on this issue: the SDA Church will never be a part of the fall of Babylon for we know it is NOT predicted to be a part of the final persecution and is in fact said to be the object of persecution. To assert otherwise is to go against what is clearly stated in both the Bible and the SOP. If you refuse to believe the truth, that is your problem, but I'll believe what we are clearly told on this matter. This settles the matter for me once and for all.