The True Basis of Salvation--Part II (Includes On-going Dialogue With Karl Wagner

Click to go to our Home Page

Forum and all friends of Karl's with whom he will "share" my document on the True Basis of Salvation: How does Karl's below message to me accord with Scripture?

Message # 14351 of 14515 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index

From: "Karl" <
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:02 pm
Subject: Re: Tensions Between Fords Sanctuary Doctrine and RBF

Active faith is not passive. As Ellen said, "God works and man works."--Letter 20, 1893.
I've maintained that works are not part of our justification, rather the result of it, shown in the maturing sanctifing process.

Ron's response:

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Reconcile the above with the below verses and you will arrive at the correct tension between faith and works:

Not of works, lest any man should boast:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Eph. 2:8.

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:9.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10.


Karl has taught for months and years that we are save by grace (pardon--justification) plus nothing--that works have nothing to do with justification and salvation except as being fruits of already being saved after being justified. Karl has said that grace only or justification is the BASIS OF SALVATION and that works does not enter that BASIS. How does this equate with the following verse?:

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The Resolution to the "Apparent Contradiction" Between Paul and James on Works

Ellen White counseled us that there were "apparent contradiction" in her writings and as well in the Scriptures. Paul's writings seem to "apparently contradict" James' on works. What is our duty when encountering such "apparent contradiction?

Weight of Evidence Formula: "1. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible; 2. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by diligent application and study; 3. Nothing revealed in Scripture can or will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering; 4. To understand doctrine, bring all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to know, then let every word have its proper influence; and if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error; 5. Scripture must be its own expositor, [interpreter] since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound to me, and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed, or wisdom is my rule, and not the Bible." E.G. White, Second Advent Review and Herald, 11-25-34, pr. 24.

The only way one can interpret Paul's saying that no man is saved by works lest any man should boast, is that he means works of man's own self-generation. That is the only reasonable interpretation of Paul's meaning and the only way to interpret so that he does not contradict himself in numerous other passages of his writings.

Ellen White sheds light on this thusly:

"No work of man can merit for him the pardoning love of God, but the love of God pervading the soul will lead him to do thse things which were always required of God and that he should do with pleasure." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p. 23.

"Let this point be fully settled in every mind: If we accept Christ as a Redeemer, we must accept Him as a Ruler. We cannot have the assurance and perfect confiding trust in Christ as our Saviour until we acknowledge Him as our King and are obedient to His commandments. Thus we evidence our allegiance to God. We have then the genuine ring in our faith, for it is a working faith. It works by love. Speak it from your heart: 'Lord, I believe Thou hast died to redeem my soul. If Thu hast placed such a value upon the soul as to give Thy life for mine, I will respond. I give my life and all its possibilities, in all my weakness, into Thy keeping,' The Will must be brought into complete harmony with the will of God. When this is done, no ray of light that shines into the heart and chambers of the mind will be resisted. The soul will not be barricaded with prejudice, calling light darkness and darkness light. The light from heaven is welcomed, as light filling all the chambers of the soul. This is making melody to God." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p. 16.

Ellen White's Counsel to A.T. Jones on Works

When A.T. Jones was being one-sided on faith without works, Ellen White corrected him and reminded him of the story of the rich young ruler. Here is her counsel to Jones:

"I was attending a meeting, and a large congregation were present. In my dream you were presenting the subject of faith and the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith. You repeated several times that works amounted to nothing, (Karl's grace plus nothing). that there were no conditions. The matter was presented in that light that I knew minds would be confused and would not receive the correct impression in reference to faith and works, and I decided to write to you. You state this matter too strongly. There are conditions to our receiving justification and sanctification, and the righteousness of Christ... While good works (not motivated by a proper faith and love) will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works. God saves us under a law, that we must ask if we would receive, seek if we would find, and knock if we would have the door opened unto us.... The young man came to Jesus with the question, "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" (Mark 10:17). And Christ saith unto him, "Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou will enter into life, keep the commandments." E.G. White, Faith and Works, pp. 111, 112.

Karl's grace plus nothing is valid if and only if he would concede and teach that grace for obedience (Rom. 1:5) is just as readily available as grace for pardon.

How to Love God's Law as David Did

David meditated on God's law day and night. He recognized the character of God depicted in the ten commandment law. He realized that the commandments protect the vital interests of every individual and they are absolutely necessary where two or more individuals accrue who have the power of choice.

When we become vexed enough with all the terrorism and insecurity in the world, maybe some of us will appreciate the absolute necessity of the law of God and obedience to it. Were it not for the restraint exercised by genuine Christians, there would be a lot less security than there now is. As God removes His Spirit from the earth, we will see more and more violation of His Law, to the point that mankind would destroy himself if God did not intervene.

Sincerely in Christ Jesus,

Ron Beaulieu