Latest Dialogue Between Ron and Karl on Faith and Works

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Karl et all,

Karl says:

"This attach also clearly shows how Vance belittles and diminishes
the cross, by referring to it as "only" the cross. This "only the
cross" is the center of all time and salvation."

Ron responds: Vance merely means that Christ does more for our salvation than was done on the cross:

"The intercession of Christ in man's behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon the cross. By His death He began that work which after His resurrection He ascended to complete in heaven. We must by faith enter within the veil, 'whither the forerunner is for us entered.' Hebrews 6:20:" E.G. White, The Great Controversy, 1911 edition, p. 489.

Karl and his compatriots say it was all done by Christ on the cross and while He was here on earth. He has said that to me many times on this forum. But that is a false teaching. Christ is still fulfilling His mission by preparing a bride. He awaits her character development. He does not cover her sin, He is removing it. If God's grace is not powerful enough to prepare an overcoming people now, then it never will be able to do so. Grace is more powerful than sin and abounds much more so that those who truly receive grace as power to overcome, will do just that. According to Scripture, all who are willfully, knowingly sinning, are not born again. Those who THINK they are born again while committing known and willful sin are seeped in the deceptive vale of a heart that is deceptive above all things.

This is precisely what Laodicea thinks--that she is saved in her sins rather than from them. Teachings like Karl's furbish the contentment of Laodicea. Why buy gold (faith and love) tried in the crucible of obedience to a fiery law if all you have to do is believe and let God do it all for you. This is what Karl told me recently. Quit trying to do the work of the Holy Spirit and let God do it all, as though we have no responsibility in buying the gold tried in the fire. This is why he teaches a most subtle and deceptive form of the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. He cannot see that he is doing this, and he will adamantly deny it, but it is nonetheless true.

When Vance refers to "only the cross," he means to refer to something just as essential as the cross--namely Christ's atoning work for us in the Sanctuary now and ever since the cross.

Karl is sick of anything that smacks of diligence, striving and cooperative effort on our part. If he was honest (and he is not), he would indict Ellen White as he has Uriah Smith, because of her following statement:

"Diligent heart-keeping is essential to a healthy growth in grace. The heart in its natural state is a habitation for unholy thoughts and sinful passions. When brought into subjection to Christ, it must be cleansed by the Spirit from all defilement. This can not be done without the consent of the individual." - Sons and Daughters of God, 99.

Our part cooperative part is consenting--yielding, surrendering the will. We have a choice in that endeavor else Calvinistic predestination is true and it is not!

Karl has a wrong concept of the 1888 teaching on imputed righteousness of Christ. Ellen White says it all in the following short statement:

"His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man." E.G. White, Ms. 1, 1892.

Uriah Smith and early Adventists did exactly what the Jews tried to do. They made a covenant to do all the law said. They did not do it by imputed grace and power. They tried to do it on their own steam. This was the mistake of all who did not accept the 1888 message. Jones and Wagonner taught imputed grace and power, not the imputation of Christ's obedience to the law without our cooperation.

"The gospel of the New Testament is not the Old Testament standard lowered to meet the sinner and save him in his sins. God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient." - 6 Bible Commentary, 1072.

I would suspect that Karl would brand the above statement as heresy!

"By repentance and faith they might be freed from the condemnation of sin and through the grace of Christ be enabled henceforth to render obedience to the law of God." - Acts of the Apostles, 393.

Jones and Waggoner taught that true faith receives power from Christ to overcome. That is the 1888 message is a sentence. That is righteousness by faith. We do not receive Christ's righteousness as a cover for sin and have it imputed to us so we can disobey and be covered by such cheap grace. Would be nice Karl, but that is just not the way it is!

Vance Ferrell's statement that Karl finds so repugnant (Karl's reference to justification NOT being the work of a lifetime) is well buoyed by the following from the pen of inspiration and Scripture:

"No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty....As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and co-operates with God, he works out in the life what God WORKS IN by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory....It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained." E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 1, pp. 396-397.

The truth of the matter is that justification and sanctification cannot be separated and if and when they are, neither accrues! Karl has admitted from his forked-tongue that he doubts if justification occurs without sanctification but every few postings he changes his perverted tune.

Once saved always saved is not unlike Karl's once justified always justified! But that is not the case!

"The work of grace upon the heart is not an instantaneous work. It is effected by continuous, daily watching and believing the promises of God. The repentant, believing one, who cherishes faith and earnestly desires the renewing grace of Christ, God will not turn away empty He will give him grace. And ministering angels will aid him as he perseveres in his efforts to advance." - Evangelism, 287.

"Daily prayer is as essential to growth in grace, and even to spiritual life itself, as is temporal food to physical. We should accustom ourselves to often lift the thoughts to God in prayer. If the mind wanders, we must bring it back; by persevering effort, habit will finally make it easy. We cannot for one moment separate ourselves from Christ with safety. We may have His presence to attend us at every step, but only by observing the conditions which He has Himself laid down." - Messages to Young People, 115.

I have no doubt that if Karl were honest, he would (maybe will) condemn the following article by Ellen White, which I once posted to Jim Ayars:

"(Jude 4).--The Sin of the Nicolaitans.--Is it [our sin] the sin of the Nicolaitans, turning the grace of God into lasciviousness." E.G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7, 957.

"It is our work to know our special failings and sins, which cause darkness and spiritual feebleness, and quenched our first love...Is it the sin of the Nicolaitans, turning the grace of God into lasciviousness? There will be apostasies. But 'nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his.' There will be those who are evil, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...who are controlled by the master-worker in all evil, who will have to be separated from the church." E.G. White, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 06-07-1887, pr. 16.

Nicolaitans -- "But the doctrine is now largely taught that the gospel of Christ ahs made the law of God of none effect; that by 'believing' we are released from the necessity of being doers of the word. But this is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which Christ so unsparingly condemned. To the church of Ephesus He says, 'I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars; and hast borne, and hast patience, and for My name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember then from whence thou are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Those who are teaching this doctrine today have much to say in regard to faith and the righteousness of Christ; but they pervert the truth, and make it serve the cause of error. They declare that we have only to believe on Jesus Christ, and that faith is all-sufficient; that the righteousness of Christ is to be the sinner's credentials; that this imputed righteousness fulfils the law for us, [Ever heard Karl Wagner say this?!]and that we are under no obligation to obey the law of God. This class claim that Christ came to save sinners, and that He has saved them. 'I am saved,' they will repeat over and over again. But are they saved while transgressing the law of Jehovah?--No; for the garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity. Such teaching is a gross deception, and Christ becomes to these persons a stumbling block as He did to the Jews,--to the Jews, because they would not receive Him as their personal Saviour, to these professed believers in Christ, because they separate Christ and the law, and regard faith as a substitute for obedience. They separate the Father and the Son, the Saviour of the world. Virtually they teach, both by precept and example, that Christ, by His death, saves men in their transgressions. [versus from their transgressions. Jim Ayars said this was my slogan! No Jim, it is Ellen White's and God's slogan].

Note by Ron: Some, like Karl, say that obedience will be a fruit of being saved, that obedience is not essential to justification--only grace is essential to justification. Then Karl says that he doubts that justification accrues without sanctification! This is double-speak of the worst kind and constitutes Karl's form of the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans. Notice:

"There is but one power that can bring us into conformity to the likeness of Christ, that can make us steadfast and keep us constant. It is the grace of God that comes to us through obedience to the law of God." - My Life Today, 100.

(Now back to Ellen White's statement I was quoting before inserting the note)

"It is necessary that every intelligent being shall understand the principles of the Law of God. Christ through the apostle James declares, 'Whoso shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.' These words were spoken this side of the death of Christ; therefore the Law was binding upon all at that time.

The Saviour raised His voice in protest against those who regard the divine commandments with indifference and carelessness. He said, 'Whosoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.' And He also declared, 'Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law till all be fulfilled.

Many talk of freedom, of gospel liberty. They may assert that they are not in bondage to the Law. But the influence of a gospel hope will not lead the sinner to look upon the salvation of Christ as a matter of free grace, while he continues to live in transgression of the Law of God. When the light of truth dawns upon his mind, and he fully understands the requirements [conditions] of God, and realizes the extent of his transgressions, he will reform his ways, become loyal to God through the strength obtained from his Saviour, and lead a new and purer life. 'Whosoever abideth in Him,' says John, 'sinneth not; whosoever sinneth, hath not seen Him, neither know Him." E.G. White, Bible Echo and Signs of the Times, 02-08-97,

"Here are revealed the conditions of success. To make God's grace our own, we must act our part. The Lord does not propose to perform for us either the willing or the doing. His grace is given to work in us to will and to do, but never as a substitute for our effort. Our souls are to be aroused to cooperate. The Holy Spirit works in us, that we may work out our own salvation." - Messages to Young People 147.

Of course, Ellen White is backed with Scripture on her above statement. Scripture instructs us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Without Him we can do nothing. With Him, we can do all things.

2Cr 7:15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.


Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are [your] masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;


Imagine these words of Paul who taught grace:

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Does Paul make you feel like vomiting Karl? Or do you pick and choose what you like from Paul? You love security Karl. You hate fear and trembling, right?! Dr. Patti loves security while she does whatever she wishes. What you enjoy Karl is presumptuous belief. Anything that smacks of personal responsibility to God by way of striving, working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, you ridicule and hate. Do you hate Paul as much as you hate Vance and the Standish brothers? If not, why not? If not, is it because you pick and choose among Paul's sayings?

Do you like this by Paul?

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This verse obviously implies that non will be saved who do not obey. So obedience is essential to salvation and not just a result of believing faith. True faith will work and both faith and works are one. They cannot be separated any more than the law and the gospel can be separated.

"God's grace and the law of His kingdom are in perfect harmony; they walk hand in hand. His grace makes it possible for us to draw nigh to Him by faith. By receiving it, and letting it work in our lives, we testify to the validity of the law; we exalt the law and make it honorable by carrying out its living principles." - My Life Today, 100.

"There are many who cry, 'Believe, only believe.' Ask them what you are to believe. Are you to believe the lies forged by Satan against God's holy, just, and good law? God does not use His great and precious grace to make of none effect His law, but to establish His law.. The Lord saw our fallen condition; He saw our need of grace, and because He loved our souls, He has given us grace and peace. Grace means favor to one who is undeserving, to one who is lost. The fact that we are sinners, instead of shutting us away from the mercy and love of God, makes the exercise of His love to us a positive necessity in order that we may be saved. - 1 Selected Messages, 347.

What Follows is Another Exchange on the Same Issue

Ron said:

I said: Karl is sick of anything that smacks of diligence, striving and cooperative effort on our part.

Karl responds: Continue with the sentence. "...when it become meritorious for salvation." Which is how Ron views works. We are saved by works we perform now in order to receive grace...a free gift.

Ron responds:

That is a TOTAL PERVERSION of everything I have ever said. This PROVES one or more of a variation of things Karl:

  • That you do not listen Karl. That as Janine said: Karl and the likes of him do not listen.
  • And/or you do not understand what I am saying.
  • And/or you do not have the spiritual discernment necessary to understand what I am saying.
  • And/or you do understand what I am saying but you disagree.
  • And/or you have such disdain for what I am saying that you purposely pervert it.
  • And/or you are so seeped in (brain-washed) by your belief system that your mind is not open to anything else.

I can back anything I teach with the Bible and Ellen White and I can do so in an manner so that nothing contradicts. This is the formula Christ has laid out so that we can KNOW we are not in error. This is the only process that will guarantee that we are correct even when developing a theory. God made this an acid test. My views are such that they make nothing contradict--either the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy. With your views Karl, there is a whale of a lot of contradiction and were I not listening, I would not be able to point out the contradictions which I can ably state.

I say that we are saved by the works Christ performs in and through us which ACCOMPANY the reception of grace as a free gift. I say that Christ accounts righteousness unto us for yielding and surrendering to His will for us. I say no man can boast of such "accounted (Imputed) righteousness" because Christ does it all. We yield to His works in and through us.

Thus, I AM NOT saying that ANY WORK we perform on our own steam--that is not inspired and motivated by love of Christ and the brethren, is worth anything! And, when ANY WORK of ours is so inspired, it is counted as efficacious toward our justification and salvation, because they cannot be separated. You have agreed Karl, that one cannot accrue without the other--at least sometimes you agree to that! On a good day you agree to that.

But am I saying that any personal work of OURS is efficacious toward justification--salvation? Absolutely not! But if Christ wants to count our surrendering and yielding to His Spirit as a righteous work or choice, that is His right and He has done that via examples in Scripture that I have furnished. You totally ignore those examples Karl, and even A. Leroy Moore and your friends either could not or chose to not deal with those examples. You did not deal with them either Karl.

Apparently, this is too complex for your mind Karl, and even Leroy's mind. It is not really complex, but may well require spiritual discernment to comprehend it. When we yield to EVERYTHING--EVERY WORK that Christ has performed and IS NOW PERFORMING FOR US, since the foundation of the earth, that is counted as righteousness unto us, even though it is by His Spirit's wooing that we respond. Apparently there is thus merit in making the right choices even though those choices are inspired by the Holy Spirit and are a free gift to us. Why is any merit credited to us? Because not all choose the right choice and all are wooed the same. I am sure that Christ is not biased in His wooing. For according to Scripture, all men are given a measure of faith. However, Ellen White does say that the measure they are given in tantamount to what they accept as a gift. The more we accept and give to others, the more we receive.

Ron responds: There is a way that our works become meritorious for salvation and that is when we yield or surrender our will to Christ and He then works His works in and through us as we cooperate to let Him. Ellen White says that this cooperation, this surrendering, is counted to us as righteousness, and that when we do this, Christ makes up for any deficiency (defect or fault) but not for committing open, known sinning. This process is a form of imputed--imparted righteousness because it is all a gift--in that we could not even repent without the imparted gift of grace. It is indeed all of grace. Christ's works wrought in and through us are efficacious toward our justification and salvation, but we are credited with those works of His in and through us because we surrender our wills to Him and let Him so work. This explains the "apparent" Biblical paradox as to why and how we are finally judged according to our works. Because we accept the gift of grace as it relates to faith and works, we are accounted righteous for the act of that acceptance and surrender of our wills--which is also a gift lest any man boast of ANYTHING.

This process is how Abraham was counted righteous for His works that were inspired by faith He received as a gift. This is why the harlot Rahab was counted righteous for her works. This is why Phinehas was counted righteous for his works.

Karl, you mention the thief on the cross and ask what works he did to be justified. Christ knew that his heart repentance was full of good works meet for repentance if he had lived. In other words, Christ knew that he made a COMPLETELY SINCERE full surrender to Christ by way of accepting the gift of faith from Christ. He was thus safe to save. He did not presumptuously repent and Christ knew that.

If all the Bible and Ellen White says is true, regarding faith, works and how they relate to salvation, our personal choice to repent by surrendering our wills and yielding totally to the dictates of the Holy Spirit and what we KNOW to be right, is counted to us as righteousness and Christ's blood covers our more minor defects and faults. The covering by Christ of our more minor faults and defects is imputed righteousness, so that we appear to the Father as perfect in His sight. But some like Satan look upon these defects and faults as something to accuse us for day and night before the Altar of Christ.

The same principle applies to the church as a corporate body. All churches and any independent church militant group of worshippers will have defects and faults. Ellen White said that the church militant would be defective because it was not yet the church triumphant. How is this misinterpreted by the liberals in the SDA church? They interpret this to mean that ANYTHING WRONG THEY DO--EVEN MAJOR APOSTASIES, are mere defects and faults. This is a lie. There is a point at which we are to fear and shun those who depart from the truths of God's word and Ellen White spells out that POINT in very clear language.

Karl has a wrong concept of the 1888 teaching on imputed righteousness of Christ. Ellen White says it all in the following short statement: "His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man." E.G. White, Ms. 1, 1892. Uriah Smith and early Adventists did exactly what the Jews tried to do. They made a covenant to do all the law said. They did not do it by imputed grace and power. Karl responds:

How do you "do" something based on "imputation?" Wouldn't that have to be "imparted?"

Ron responds: Ellen White says that grace and power are imputed that we may obey. Christ received power from His Father to obey. She said that we are to obey as Christ did. We obey by the gift of imputed grace and power. This statement is dealing with OBEDIENCE and does not mention the pardon element of grace. It mentions only obeying by imputed grace and power. When we receive this imputed grace and power for obedience, (based on Rom. 1:5), this is how we "DO" SOMETHING based on "imputation." The power to obey is imputed and we then yield to and choose that power to obey. That yielding and obedience due to that yielding is counted as righteousness unto us, but who can boast, because the power all comes from Christ--imputed power! This is simple, but some either cannot or will not see it, because they rather choose what is really cheap grace. The Jews and early Adventists did not rely on imputed grace and power to obey. They both tried to do it on their own steam. This was the mistake of all who did not accept the 1888 message. Jones and Wagonner taught imputed grace and power, not the imputation of Christ's obedience to the law without our cooperation. Karl responds:

The whole issue over the law in Galatians was not on sanctification aspects of impartation, but of imputation (justification).

Ron responds: You are not correct here Karl. The issue over the law in Galatians was whether or not works of their own versus works of faith were efficacious toward salvation. This is always the case wherein Paul mentions works to the Jews. He was trying to show them what we learned in 1888, that there is imputed grace power to enable us to obey and that any obedience that comes by any other power is worthless! He was trying to show them that they could not be justified by any works of their own traditions etc., such as circumcision and self-inflicted sacrifices and fastings. He was merely trying to show them the fact that they needed circumcision of the heart, and that only works performed by the imputed gift of Christ's power were efficacious to justification and salvation, and this is the common thread to all Paul's discourse on faith and works, without exception.

"The gospel of the New Testament is not the Old Testament standard lowered to meet the sinner and save him in his sins. God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient." - 6 Bible Commentary, 1072.

I would suspect that Karl would brand the above statement as heresy! Karl responds:

Let's look at the sentence. "His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient." If the person was obedient, then that person would be in fact righteous and would not need to have it imputed to him. The fact is, a true convert who has been justified by faith and had the righteousness of Christ imputed to him will in fact be obedient. Hence, only the obedient will be justified. Sanctification is not (for the umpteenth time) not an optional program. Our obedience is just not the basis for God saving us and adopting us in the family. It is the result. Take a look at the result of justification in Romans 6. Keep in mind, Paul makes no distinction here between justification and sanctification in the text. He moves right into it as assuming that the one justified is also now being sanctified.

Ron responds: Obviously, already in your reply you forgot the following statement: "His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man." E.G. White, Ms. 1, 1892.

Your response totally ignores the above statement and the great answers it provides.

Christ's righteousness is imputed only to those who are obedient to the wooings of the Holy Spirit and the command to repent and makes works meet for repentance. Why this requisite? Because the imputable grace and power are always at our beckoning call. When we discern that we are sinners, by the wooing of the Holy Spirit, we are also wooed that we must make a choice to repent and AT THE SAME TIME receive imputed grace and power for obedience. Then He imputes grace and power to obey. Remember, you have agreed that justification does not accrue without sanctification. But we both know that Christ does not thump on all our sins at once. He mercifully tries our sins (brings them to trial) as we can take it.

[text edited down by Karl] Jones and Waggoner taught that true faith receives power from Christ to overcome. That is the 1888 message is a sentence. That is righteousness by faith. We do not receive Christ's righteousness as a cover for sin and have it imputed to us so we can disobey and be covered by such cheap grace. Would be nice Karl, but that is just not the way it is!

Karl responds:

As for Jones and Waggoner, the Gospel (Good News) is not the message of overcoming sin. It is the salvation offered as a free gift due to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. (1 Cor. 15:1-4).

Ron responds: The Gospel (Good News) is that grace is also a free IMPUTED gift of power for obedience due to the Incarnation and the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You are enumerating only the pardon part of the equation Karl, and that is why you are dealing in "cheap grace" Karl. That is precisely how and why you are teaching the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. It does crop out doesn't is Karl. Every once in a while you let it crop out for all to witness! True Righteousness by Faith is a message of OVERCOMING SIN. Anything else is salvation in sin and not from sin. The Everlasting Gospel describes a people who overcome and keep the commandments of God, Revelation 14:12, and elsewhere in Scripture. You are thus teaching a "cheap grace" PARTIAL GOSPEL, that does not include overcoming sin, which is the greatest good, crowing give of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ!!! This you are willing to leave out of the GOOD NEWS. I say blasphemy Karl, utopian BLASPHEMY.

Vance Ferrell's statement that Karl finds so repugnant (Karl's reference to justification NOT being the work of a lifetime) is well buoyed by the following from the pen of inspiration and Scripture:

"No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty....As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and co-operates with God, he works out in the life what God WORKS IN by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory....It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained." E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 1, pp. 396-397.

Karl responds:

This is not justification Ron, its sanctification. Justification is the work of a moment of which we continually stand. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime.

Ron responds: This is both justification and sanctification--the same coin with two sides that cannot be separated. Justification is also the work of a lifetime because it is not once justified always justified, and you are teaching once saved always saved apparently without realizing it.

The truth of the matter is that justification and sanctification cannot be separated and if and when they are, neither accrues!

Karl has admitted from his forked-tongue that he doubts if justification occurs without sanctification but every few postings he changes his perverted tune.

Karl responds:

As I've said many many times. Just. And Sanct. Are very distinct, but they are the two sides of the same coin. In fact, I'll remove all doubt. If one is not maturing in Christ (being sanctified) then they have not been justified. 1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ron said: Once saved always saved is not unlike Karl's once justified always justified! But that is not the case!

Karl responds:

If you're in the family, your justified. Think how that would be if you kept kicking your child out of the family every time they screwed up. There is a difference between human sin as we mature and outright rebellion. (compare 1 Jn 1:9 and 1 Jn 3:9).

Ron responds: The big question is if one is truly "IN THE FAMILY" or born again, or is operating upon presumptuous "cheap grace" without all the conditions to salvation. That is the BIG QUESTION. "The work of grace upon the heart is not an instantaneous work. It is effected by continuous, daily watching and believing the promises of God. The repentant, believing one, who cherishes faith and earnestly desires the renewing grace of Christ, God will not turn away empty He will give him grace. And ministering angels will aid him as he perseveres in his efforts to advance." - Evangelism, 287. Karl responds:

This is sanctification. I have no problem here.

Ron responds: No Karl, this is not sanctification alone. This is a process which involves both JUSTIFICATION AND SANCTIFICATION, BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BE SEPARATED--REMEMBER? You agreed to that. The imputed grace and power come into action at the moment of justification and neither accrues without the other and both are the work of a lifetime.

"His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man." E.G. White, Ms. 1, 1892.

[text edited down] I have no doubt that if Karl were honest, he would (maybe will) condemn the following article by Ellen White, which I once posted to Jim Ayars: "(Jude 4).--The Sin of the Nicolaitans.--Is it [our sin] the sin of the Nicolaitans, turning the grace of God into lasciviousness." E.G.

Karl responds:

I've never taught that we are released from obeying. Ron's continual comparison to me as teaching the doctrine of the Nicolaitans is a dishonest smoke screen. I simply say as Paul that we do not "enter" salvation (Justification) by any works of the Law. (Rom 3:20,28; Gal 3:11).

Ron responds: Karl, you made it clear earlier in this posting that I am correct in saying how and why you are teaching the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. Here, again, is what you said:

"As for Jones and Waggoner, the Gospel (Good News) is not the message of overcoming sin. It is the salvation offered as a free gift due to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. (1 Cor. 15:1-4)."

And I responded to Karl thusly: The Gospel (Good News) is that grace is also a free IMPUTED gift of power for obedience due to the Incarnation and the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You are enumerating only the pardon part of the equation Karl, and that is why you are dealing in "cheap grace" Karl. That is precisely how and why you are teaching the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. It does crop out doesn't is Karl. Every once in a while you let it crop out for all to witness! True Righteousness by Faith is a message of OVERCOMING SIN. Anything else is salvation in sin and not from sin. The Everlasting Gospel describes a people who overcome and keep the commandments of God, Revelation 14:12, and elsewhere in Scripture. You are thus teaching a "cheap grace" PARTIAL GOSPEL, that does not include overcoming sin, which is the greatest good, crowing give of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ!!! This you are willing to leave out of the GOOD NEWS. I say blasphemy Karl, utopian BLASPHEMY. [text edited down] ...that this imputed righteousness fulfils the law for us,

Karl responds:

For us to enter into relationship and receive the power of the Holy spirit after which we are empowered to obey. [Ever heard Karl Wagner say this?!]and that we are under no obligation to obey the law of God.

This class claim that Christ came to save sinners, and that He has saved them. 'I am saved,' they will repeat over and over again. But are they saved while transgressing the law of Jehovah?--No; for the garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity. Such teaching is a gross deception, and Christ becomes to these persons a stumbling block as He did to the Jews,--to the Jews, because they would not receive Him as their personal Saviour, to these professed believers in Christ, because they separate Christ and the law, and regard faith as a substitute for obedience.

Karl responds: Though I consider a true faith to be obedience, I have never taught that one need not obey. [edited text down]

Note by Ron: Some, like Karl, say that obedience will be a fruit of being saved, that obedience is not essential to justification--only grace is essential to justification. Then Karl says that he doubts that justification accrues without sanctification! This is double- speak of the worst kind and constitutes Karl's form of the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans. Notice:

"There is but one power that can bring us into conformity to the likeness of Christ, that can make us steadfast and keep us constant. It is the grace of God that comes to us through obedience to the law of God." - My Life Today, 100.

Karl responds:

Ron, your use of this quote suggests that when we obey then God does something, such as extends grace to us. I think also you are using a reference here to sanctification and not the sinner moving from reprobate to saint. [edited out text on law keeping] note: Karl has already made statements regarding these things above. Does Paul make you feel like vomiting Karl? Or do you pick and choose what you like from Paul? You love security Karl. You hate fear and trembling, right?! Dr. Patti loves security while she does whatever she wishes. What you enjoy Karl is presumptuous belief. Anything that smacks of personal responsibility to God by way of striving, working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, you ridicule and hate. Do you hate Paul as much as you hate Vance and the Standish brothers? If not, why not? If not, is it because you pick and choose among Paul's sayings?

Do you like this by Paul and Ellen White?

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This verse obviously implies that non will be saved who do not obey. So obedience is essential to salvation and not just a result of believing faith. True faith will work and both faith and works are one. They cannot be separated any more than the law and the gospel can be separated.

"God's grace and the law of His kingdom are in perfect harmony; they walk hand in hand. His grace makes it possible for us to draw nigh to Him by faith. By receiving it, and letting it work in our lives, we testify to the validity of the law; we exalt the law and make it honorable by carrying out its living principles." - My Life Today, 100.

"There are many who cry, 'Believe, only believe.' Ask them what you are to believe. Are you to believe the lies forged by Satan against God's holy, just, and good law? God does not use His great and precious grace to make of none effect His law, but to establish His law.. The Lord saw our fallen condition; He saw our need of grace, and because He loved our souls, He has given us grace and peace. Grace means favor to one who is undeserving, to one who is lost. The fact that we are sinners, instead of shutting us away from the mercy and love of God, makes the exercise of His love to us a positive necessity in order that we may be saved. - 1 Selected Messages, 347.

Karl responds:

Again Ron, you accuse me of something which is simply not true.

Ron responds: We will let the reader decide if you have malice toward reformers such as Vance Ferrell and all who believe that an acceptance of the gift of imputed grace and power to obey is conditional to any true repentance and justification.

Do you like this by Paul?

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This verse obviously implies that non will be saved who do not obey. So obedience is essential to salvation and not just a result of believing faith. True faith will work and both faith and works are one. They cannot be separated any more than the law and the gospel can be separated.

"God's grace and the law of His kingdom are in perfect harmony; they walk hand in hand. His grace makes it possible for us to draw nigh to Him by faith. By receiving it, and letting it work in our lives, we testify to the validity of the law; we exalt the law and make it honorable by carrying out its living principles." - My Life Today, 100.  

Karl responds:

That's just it Ron, nobody obeys. Ro 3:12, "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." No Ron. None will be saved who does not obey, that is why we have Christ. He obeyed. His obedience is imputed to us, that is the basis of our salvation. Yes, He is our example and we can overcome as He did here on earth. But that is not the basis of our salvation. Christ is.

Ron responds: If nobody obeys by the imputed grace and power for obedience of Christ, then His great sacrifice made in order that we make partake of His Divine Nature was all for nought! First you say that nobody obeys, then you say in the same paragraph: "Yes, He is our example and we can overcome as He did here on earth. That is a direct self-contradiction. Whether or not that is the basis of our salvation is another matter.

So let's deal with this "other matter," the basis of our salvation. I have stated that the self-sacrificing works of Christ out of love for us since the foundation of the world are the basis of our salvation, but we have to accept those works and have the power associated with them imputed to us in the form of His grace and power. When we do that, we are not only safe to save--safe to justify, we obey out of a motive of faith in and love for Christ. When we buy and receive the gift of gold tried in the fire, love and faith, tried in obedience to the fiery law of God, then we are empowered with imputed grace and power to obey that law. All this package is required for justification (being saved) and sanctification, even though remaining in both justification and sanctification is the process of a lifetime. ...So obedience is essential to salvation and not just a result of believing faith.

Karl responds: Only in that it gives evidence of faith, but the work does not merit salvation.

Ron responds: The work merits salvation because it is by the imputed grace and power of Christ. It is then counted as righteousness unto us. True faith will work and both faith and works are one. They cannot be separated any more than the law and the gospel can be separated.

"God's grace and the law of His kingdom are in perfect harmony; they walk hand in hand. His grace makes it possible for us to draw nigh to Him by faith. By receiving it, and letting it work in our lives, we testify to the validity of the law; we exalt the law and make it honorable by carrying out its living principles." - My Life Today, 100.

Karl responds: I have no problem with the above. I concur with it. She is refereeing to the life of the saint.

Ron responds: No, she is referring to what is necessary to retain both justification and sanctification and salvation.

"There are many who cry, 'Believe, only believe.' Ask them what you are to believe. Are you to believe the lies forged by Satan against God's holy, just, and good law? God does not use His great and precious grace to make of none effect His law, but to establish His law.. The Lord saw our fallen condition; He saw our need of grace, and because He loved our souls, He has given us grace and peace. Grace means favor to one who is undeserving, to one who is lost. The fact that we are sinners, instead of shutting us away from the mercy and love of God, makes the exercise of His love to us a positive necessity in order that we may be saved. - 1 Selected Messages, 347.

Karl responds: Of course you apply this to me, and I have never taught this.

Ron responds: Of course I apply the statement to you Karl, and so do you apply it directly to yourself when you say: "Nobody obeys!" When you say: Not even the imputed grace and power to obey is efficacious towards our justification and sanctification. Without this fact, we could not even repent which is a condition for receiving justification as well as accompanying sanctification. When you say we are saved by faith (belief) alone and not works. Paul must be interpreted so as not to contradict Paul in this instance. You do not so interpret. Your gospel contradicts the gospel as portrayed in Scriipture and the Spirit of Prophecy.

Vance Ferrell's statement that Karl finds so repugnant (Karl's reference to justification NOT being the work of a lifetime) is well buoyed by the following from the pen of inspiration and Scripture:

"No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty....As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and co-operates with God, he works out in the life what God WORKS IN by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory....It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained." E.G. White, Selected Messages, vol. 1, pp. 396-397.

The truth of the matter is that justification and sanctification cannot be separated and if and when they are, neither accrues! Karl has admitted from his forked-tongue that he doubts if justification occurs without sanctification but every few postings he changes his perverted tune.

Once saved always saved is not unlike Karl's once justified always justified! But that is not the case!

"The work of grace upon the heart is not an instantaneous work. It is effected by continuous, daily watching and believing the promises of God. The repentant, believing one, who cherishes faith and earnestly desires the renewing grace of Christ, God will not turn away empty He will give him grace. And ministering angels will aid him as he perseveres in his efforts to advance." - Evangelism, 287.

"Daily prayer is as essential to growth in grace, and even to spiritual life itself, as is temporal food to physical. We should accustom ourselves to often lift the thoughts to God in prayer. If the mind wanders, we must bring it back; by persevering effort, habit will finally make it easy. We cannot for one moment separate ourselves from Christ with safety. We may have His presence to attend us at every step, but only by observing the conditions which He has Himself laid down." - Messages to Young People, 115.

I have no doubt that if Karl were honest, he would (maybe will) condemn the following article by Ellen White, which I once posted to Jim Ayars:

"(Jude 4).--The Sin of the Nicolaitans.--Is it [our sin] the sin of the Nicolaitans, turning the grace of God into lasciviousness." E.G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7, 957.

"It is our work to know our special failings and sins, which cause darkness and spiritual feebleness, and quenched our first love...Is it the sin of the Nicolaitans, turning the grace of God into lasciviousness? There will be apostasies. But 'nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his.' There will be those who are evil, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...who are controlled by the master-worker in all evil, who will have to be separated from the church." E.G. White, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 06-07-1887, pr. 16.

That's just it Ron, nobody obeys. Ro 3:12, "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." No Ron. None will be saved who do not obey, that is why we have Christ. He obeyed. His obedience is imputed to us, that is the basis of our salvation. Yes, He is our example and we can overcome as He did here on earth. But that is not the basis of our salvation. Christ is. ...So obedience is essential to salvation and not just a result of believing faith. Karl responds: Only in that it gives evidence of faith, but the work does not merit salvation. True faith will work and both faith and works are one. They cannot be separated any more than the law and the gospel can be separated. "God's grace and the law of His kingdom are in perfect harmony; they walk hand in hand. His grace makes it possible for us to draw nigh to Him by faith. By receiving it, and letting it work in our lives, we testify to the validity of the law; we exalt the law and make it honorable by carrying out its living principles." - My Life Today, 100.

Karl responds:

I have no problem with the above. I concur with it. She is refereeing to the life of the saint. "There are many who cry, 'Believe, only believe.' Ask them what you are to believe. Are you to believe the lies forged by Satan against God's holy, just, and good law? God does not use His great and precious grace to make of none effect His law, but to establish His law.. The Lord saw our fallen condition; He saw our need of grace, and because He loved our souls, He has given us grace and peace. Grace means favor to one who is undeserving, to one who is lost. The fact that we are sinners, instead of shutting us away from the mercy and love of God, makes the exercise of His love to us a positive necessity in order that we may be saved. - 1 Selected Messages, 347. Karl responds:

Of course you apply this to me, and I have never taught this.

Ron responds: Of course I apply the statement to you Karl, and so do you apply it directly to yourself when you say: "Nobody obeys!" When you say: Not even the imputed grace and power to obey is efficacious towards our justification and sanctification. Without this fact, we could not even repent which is a condition for receiving justification as well as accompanying sanctification. When you say we are saved by faith (belief) alone and not works. Paul must be interpreted so as not to contradict Paul in this instance. You do not so interpret. Your gospel contradicts the gospel as portrayed in Scriipture and the Spirit of Prophecy.