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The King of the North and the King of the
South “Much of the history
that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy will be repeated…[DAN . 11: 3 0 - 3 6 QUOTED by Ellen
White]…. Scenes similar to those described in these words will take place….Let
all read and understand the prophecies of this book [not only the verses quoted] for we are now entering upon the
time of trouble spoken of…[Daniel 12:1-4 quoted]." Click to go to our Home Page
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Ellen White quoted the following verses from Daniel 11. Our objective is
to ascertain if these verses can be detached and stand alone from the rest of
Daniel 11, namely verses 37-45:
30For the ships of Chittim shall come against
him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against
the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence
with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Ron’s comment: Who shall the ships of Chittim
come against? This refers back to verse 21. Verse 31 makes no sense without
reckoning whom the verse is speaking of in context, and that is the vile person
traced back to verse 21.
21And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall
not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain
the kingdom by flatteries.
31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary
of strength, and shall take away the
daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Ron’s comments: Arms stand on the part of the
vile person and they pollute the sanctuary of
strength and take away the daily and place the
abomination that makes desolate. This ties in with
Daniel 12:11, 12, as well as Matthew 24:15, 16.
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of
by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
It is
Matthew 24 that gives the signs of Christ's coming. Ellen White applied the
entire discourse of Matthew 23 and 24, not for the disciples only, but for
those who live in the last scenes of this earth's history.
Ellen
White on Matthew 24: "When He referred to the destruction of Jerusalem,
His prophetic words reached beyond that even to the final conflagration in that
day when the Lord shall rise out of His place to punish for their iniquity,
when the earth shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her
slain. This entire discourse was given, not for the disciples only, but
for those who should live in the last scenes of this earth's history." E.G. White, Desire of Ages, p. 628.
32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by
flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do
exploits.
Ron’s comments: The vile person by flatteries corrupts those who do
wickedly against the covenant.
33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet
they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many
days.
34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen
with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to
purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Ron’s comments: Sounds like the saved being tried and purged to make
them white EVEN TO THE TIME OF THE END.
36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall
speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation
be accomplished: for that that is
determined shall be done.
Ron’s comments: Sounds like the pope or Satan himself both of whom magnify themselves against the God of gods. This person
prospers till the indignation be accomplished. That is
until Revelation 14:10-12. That is when the
timeframe of the end indignation occurs. So this vile person operates to the
very end of time—THE INDIGNATION.
Daniel’s office was to make known what shall be in the last end of the indignation at the very end of
time.
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee
know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be].
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of
the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the
holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of
women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Ron’s comments: The pope magnifies himself above the God of his fathers.
Ellen White never says she was “shown” that the vile person of Daniel 11 is not
the pope. And Turkey will play a role along with the pope in permitting him to
occupy the Temple on the Dome of the Rock. So Turkey does indeed play a role
with the King of the North. Being in control of the Dome of the Rock, Turkey
did not come to its end by any means! I for one will not accept second and
third hand hearsay data on such an important chapter of Scripture such as
something someone heard Loughborough say about what Ellen White said about the
King of the North. The pioneers correctly saw Turkey in a role as King of the
North, but it is very possible they did not see how that role would come to its
full fruition. Here is a letter by brother Loughborough quoting something he
was told by another man who told him what Ellen White supposedly said. So this
is third hand information and some are using it like it was straight from Ellen
White:
Dear Brother,
Your letter
of recent date received. Yesterday I mailed to you a copy of the book on the
sealing message. And I have sent a dime to the Pacific Press requesting them to
mail to you a copy of “Prophetic Gift in the Gospel Church.” As to where you
can get information on
“THE KING OF THE NORTH,” I think you will find it in Bro. [A.G.]
Daniel’s book on “The World War.” Brother URIAH SMITH laid no claims to
“inspiration,” but his view on THE KING OF THE NORTH IS WELL ESTABLISHED
BY SISTER WHITE….This you can
read in
Volume 4 of the Testimonies, page
278-279 where she
called the discourse “a subject of special interest.” etc. It would bother those holding ANOTHER VIEWthan
what he [URIAH SMITH] advocated to find a word from her [SISTER WHITE] favoring
their views.
One Brother
who had intimated in his writing on the subject that the king of the North
MIGHT BE THE POPE,
told me that
Sister White told him he “never should
have INTIMATED any such thing, and that his idea would only create CONFUSION”.… it was what he told me in Autumn 1878….”
Yours in the blessed hope, J. N. Loughborough.
I don’t question the findings of Loughborough,
Daniels, Uriah Smith or any one of the pioneers. Nor do I believe my findings
do despite to theirs. I merely believe their findings were incomplete and that
there is more to the King of the North than was discerned at that time. It is
the papacy that places the abomination of desolation. That is irrefutable and
Daniel 11:31 confesses as much. In fact, this is solidly backed by the
prefigure of A.D. 66-70 when Rome placed the abomination of desolation by
ascending upon Jewish soil so many furlongs from the Temple, which soil was
regarded as Holy Ground. Ellen White termed what happened at that time a
prefigure, p. 25, Great Controversy,
so, in an antitypical fulfillment of that type, Rome will place the abomination
of desolation at the end-time, while Turkey will surely aid the pope in
assuring that he will stand in the once Holy Place, the Temple Mount.
As Professor Walter Veith
has pointed out, Rome invented the Islamic religion for its own use at the
end-time—to do its killing, while Rome looks on feigning abhorrence. So there
is a very solid link between Rome and Turkey and that link will become more
apparent as times progresses. But this alliance liaison would have been
“confusing” in the days of the pioneers and that is why Ellen White said it
would be confusing to say the pope was the King of the North, rather than
saying that concept was errant. There is a great difference between unclear
facts (confusion) and errancy.
King of the North by
James White
1854
Review and Herald Editorial Quoted By James White
We do not believe that Russia is
“the king of the north.” It is our
opinion that any
power that reigns over Syria is -for the time being - “the king of the north,” spoken of Daniel xi; hence that the Turkish Dynasty
is now [1854] that power.
If Russia,
Austria, England, or France should become possessed of supreme power over
Syria, then it - which ever it might be - would become the king of the north.” Till then none but the Turkish
Dynasty occupies that position, in our opinion. Our views of Russia, Turkey,
and France are known to our readers. No arguments, nor
ridicule, that has yet appeared, has in the least shaken our mind; yet
we do not affirm that we are right; events may convince us that we are wrong in
this matter. We have no theory at stake, and shall feel, we think, no
mortification to find we are - just what we believe all others to be fallible.”
(“Discordant Opinions,” Quoted by James White, Chief Editor, Review and Herald, December 12, 1854;
Adventist Pioneer Library CD-ROM Code Number, JW, 6R&H17, page 0134,
paragraphs 18- 22, emphasis supplied).
Notice that in 1854 James White
quoted an article titled “Discordant Opinions,” in which it was stated, “It is
our opinion that any power that reigns over Syria is - for the time being -
`the king of the north,’ spoken of Daniel xi; hence that the Turkish Dynasty is
now that power.” Further, it was stated, “Till then none but the Turkish
Dynasty occupies that position, in our opinion.”
What about the time when the pope
will reign over the entire earth including Syria. He then will be King of the North. That is why it would have
been “confusing” to refer to him as King of the North before the time he
aspires to control over the world.
38But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom
his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and
silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
Ron’s comments: The God of forces relates to Free Masonry and the sun,
moon and stars.
39Thus shall he do in the most strong holds
with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he
shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Ron’s comments: The pope will divide the land (redistribute the wealth)
for personal gain.
40And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king
of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen,
and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow
and pass over.
Ron’s comments: The King of the South and the King of the North come
against the pope, the vile person.
41He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall
be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and
the chief of the children of Ammon.
Ron’s comments: The vile person will enter the glorious land, Israel.
The pope is already trying to establish a headquarters there and in the area of
the Temple site are seven hills just as there are seven hills near the site of
the Vatican.
42He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land
of Egypt shall not escape.
Ron’s comments: The “He” refers to the pope.”
43But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and
over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall
be at his steps.
Still referring to the pope, the vile person.
44But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him:
therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy,
and utterly to make away many.
The enemy to the north of Israel was always the Arabs. Russia aids the
Arabs (Iran) right now. Tidings out of the East could refer to Pakistan and
India, who lend aid to Iran now as well.
45And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the
glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Ron’s comments: The pope will
finally plant his palace in the glorious holy mountain, the Temple Mount in
Jerusalem. But he will come to his end, and none shall be able to help
him—deliver him. Turkey is in control of the Dome of the Rock, Temple Mount in
Israel, and it is interesting that the pope wants to plant his palace
headquarters there.
http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=6033.4423.0.0
http://www.templemount.org/tempprep.html
To think that anyone could
extrapolate verses 37-45 from the context of verses 21 and on seems
preposterous.
To those who employ narrowness of mind and extreme bigotry in
interpreting prophecy, and that Ellen White pronounced the final word on all
end-time prophetic developments, I believe the following statement from the SDA Bible Commentary, is most apropos:
“In general, Seventh-day Adventists have held that the fulfillment of v.
45 [Dan. 11] is yet future. The prudent words spoken by the Advent pioneer
James White in 1877 regarding caution in the interpretation of unfulfilled
prophecy are still good counsel today:
In exposition of unfulfilled prophecy, where the history is not written,
the student should put forth his propositions with not too much positiveness, lest he find himself straying in the field of
fancy. ‘There are those who think more of future truth than of present truth.
[And there are those who think more of past truth than present and future
truth]. They see but little light in the path in which they walk, but think
they see great light ahead of them.
Positions taken upon the Eastern question are based upon prophecies
which have not yet met their fulfillment. Here we should tread lightly, and
take positions carefully, lest we be found removing the landmarks fully
established in the advent movement. It may be said that there is a general
agreement upon this subject, and that all eyes are turned toward the war now in
progress between Turkey and Russia as the fulfillment of that portion of
prophecy which will give great confirmation of faith in the soon loud cry and
close of our message. But what will be the result of this positiveness
in unfulfilled prophecies should things not come out as very confidently
expected is an anxious question.” (James White, RH Nov. 29,
1877).
I believe there will be many dual fulfillments of prophecy that most are
not ready to see and accept. Some very poignant things that are transpiring
right before our very eyes are stringently denied as a clear dual fulfillment
of past fulfilled prophesies. This serves Satan’s purpose well in rendering the
Bible as ancient history, rather than the profoundly interesting up-to-date
revelation it is.
The PRIMARY fulfillment of many of the prophesies
(by way of the most important fulfillment) is at the end-time. Most other
fulfillments were secondary and/or imperfect as to their scope. For example,
the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, was but a mere prefigure of the
destruction of the world at the end-time, BEGINNING AT HIS SANCTUARY, but most
SDA’s don’t like that prime application that is to come as to the way it
involves them.
Our youth might not be leaving about as fast as they enter if they saw
how interesting the real truth is and how NOW it is. They might be impressed
with a greater urgency of the times. Again, it only serves the interest of
Satan, that this is not the case.
The King of the North
Dan 11:6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together;
for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to
make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall
he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her,
and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in [these] times.
Dan 11:7 But out of a branch of her roots shall [one] stand up in his
estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the
king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail:
Dan 11:8 And shall also carry captives into
Egypt their gods, with their princes, [and] with their precious vessels of
silver and of gold; and he shall continue [more] years than the king of the
north.
Dan 11:11 And the king of the south shall be
moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, [even] with the
king of the north: and he shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude
shall be given into his hand.
Dan 11:13 For the king of the north shall
return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall
certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches.
Dan 11:15 So the king of the north shall come,
and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south
shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither [shall there be any]
strength to withstand.
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the
king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him
like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he
shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
The King of the South
Dan 11:5 And the king of the south shall be
strong, and [one] of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have
dominion; his dominion [shall be] a great dominion.
Dan 11:9 So the king of the south shall come
into [his] kingdom, and shall return into his own land.
Dan 11:11 And the king of the south shall be
moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, [even] with the
king of the north: and he shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude
shall be given into his hand.
Dan 11:14 And in those times there shall many
stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall
exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.
Dan 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the
king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred
up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for
they shall forecast devices against him.
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king
of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen,
and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow
and pass over.
“We have no time to lose. Troublous times are before us. The world is stirred with
the spirit of war. Soon the scenes of trouble spoken of in the prophecies will
take place. The prophecy in the eleventh of Daniel
has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Much of the history that has taken place in fulfillment of this
prophecy will be repeated. In the thirtieth verse
a power is spoken of that "shall be grieved, and return, and have
indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return,
and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant." [Verses
31-36, quoted.] {13MR 394.1}
We should not conclude that ONLY the verses quoted constitutes the
part(s) that will be repeated.
“Scenes similar to those
described in these words will take place. We see evidence that Satan is fast
obtaining the control of human minds who have not the
fear of God before them. Let all read and
understand the prophecies of this book,
for we are now entering upon the time of trouble spoken of:” [Dan. 12:1-4,
quoted.] {13MR 394.2}
Notice the words: “...the prophecies of this book,” not just the express
words quoted.
“The Spirit of the Lord is
being withdrawn from the world. It is no time now for men to exalt themselves. It is no time for the
people of God to be erecting costly buildings, or to be using the Lord's entrusted talent of means in glorifying
themselves. Whatever we do we should do economically. The buildings we erect should be plain, without useless display. Let us beware of selfish greed.”--Letter 103, 1904.
Ellen G. White Estate Washington, D. C. July 19, 1984 Entire Letter Released {13MR
394.3}
Regarding the following studies,
please don’t write and tell me what is not in accord with Adventist beliefs. I
already know that. Also, I know that Ellen White applies Gog and Magog post millennially. But there are valid points and
history to consider.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ryszard01.htm
An Alternative View to Ewiak Ryszard
http://www.cogwriter.com/is-russia-the-king-of-the-north.htm
“The light that Daniel received from God
was given especially for these last days. The visions he saw by the banks of the
Ulai and the Hiddekel, the great rivers of Shinar, are NOW in
process of fulfillment, and all the events foretold will SOON
come to pass.” – Ellen, G White, Testimonies to Ministers, pp.
112-113.
The visions by the Ulai are depicted in
Daniel 8. The visions by the Hiddekel are in Daniel 10.
Though I agree with much, even most of
PM’s refutation of Pippenger and Sankey’s
teachings on Daniel 11:40-45, from what the Lord has shown me, I cannot
separate the verses Ellen White specifically quoted from the remainder of the
chapter. Though I don’t agree with the interpretations made by Pippenger and Sankey, I can
envision other applications that could be feasible and that would do no despite
to the historic application(s). Both could be true. I find a rigid position on
one historic fulfillment only, as regards many prophesies, all as repugnant as
the fanciful position of Pippenger and Sankey.
—rwb