Brother Marko’s Response

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The Church Triumphant

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The Church Militant (Part 4)

 

 

 

 

 

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----- Original Message -----

From: Marko Leone

To: rsbeauli@telusplanet.net

Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 1:22 AM

Subject: Church Triumphant in Heaven

 

Hello Brother Ron

 

This is now a direct response from myself, Brother Marko of Switzerland.

 

I hope you can respond to this plain interpretation again of this key quote, and post it, together with your response, on your website for the benefit of all SOP Bereans.

 

1. The SOP most plainly defines the "church triumphant" to be the "church in heaven"

 

“The members of the church triumphant, – the church in heaven – will be permitted to draw near to the members of the church militant, to aid them in their necessity. Let us ever remember that we are laborers together with God. In this heavenly union we shall carry forward his work with completeness, with singing and rejoicing.” 

 

{Ellen G. White, Southern Watchman, September 8, 1903, par. 1,2, emphasis added}

 

 

The Church militant is not the church triumphant, and earth is not Heaven. The church is composed of erring, imperfect men and women, who are but learners in the school of Christ, to be trained, disciplined, educated for this life, and for the future, immortal life.”

 

{Ellen G. White, Signs of the Times, January 4, 1883 par. 4, emphasis added}

 

 

We wish we had heaven here below, but we have not. The church militant is not the church triumphant.” 

 

{Ellen G. White, General Conference Daily Bulletin, April 22, 1901, par. 7}

 

 

 

2. In the very same quote, when simply read in CONTEXT "the church in heaven" is defined as "Angels of Heaven" 

 

Angels of heaven will ascend and descend the ladder of shining brightness, to co-operate with human workersThe members of the church triumphant, – the church in heaven – will be permitted to draw near to the members of the church militant, to aid them in their necessity. Let us ever remember that we are laborers together with God. In this heavenly union we shall carry forward his work with completeness, with singing and rejoicing.” 

 

{Ellen G. White, Southern Watchman, September 8, 1903, par. 1,2, emphasis added}

 

Angels of heaven, and not men on earth! 

 

 

3. Now what about this "heavenly union"? Who exactly is uniting with whom?

 

When anyone carefully reads the same quote again, it becomes so plain. From start to finish, she is speaking about Angels of Heaven (Church Triumphant) who will co-operate with human workers (Church Militant) and no other 2nd human entity whatsoever. Let me break it down. 

 

She mentions 2 entities:

 

1. "angels of heaven"

2. "human workers"

 

...which in the next sentence she equates by parallelism with:

 

1. "the church triumphant, - the church in heaven"

2. "members of the church militant"

 

...and finally once again by saying:

 

1. "God"

2. "we"

 

Thus, clearly we can conclude:

 

the Angels of Heaven = The Church Triumphant = Church in Heaven = God (indirectly)

and

Human workers = members of the church militant = we

 

This is the HEAVENLY UNION she speaks about all through this quote Brother Ron!! 

 

We (the church MILITANT) labouring together with GOD (through His Angels of Heaven aka. church triumphant aka. church in heaven). She never once refers in this quote about 2 entities being ON EARTH, or these 2 entities being humans. But only 1 being human, and the other angels. To read this favorite "double earth co-existence people interpretation" of yours into this passage, is to claim something that cannot be deduced from this quote, and worse, contradicts her own definition of it being "the angels of heaven" and NOT some 2nd human beings entity.

 

There is more to share, and I would like to show you how the church militant continues to be the true church UNTIL THE END OF TIME (without but believing that this means that the SDA is still the church militant corporately, they are not, but lost that high standard, but in this we do agree, for there are conditions of being the church militant.) But please show me first where I have twisted IN THIS QUOTE the meaning of it being angels, or simply admit that from this quote you cannot prove that they are a 2nd human parallel entity on earth. 

 

I would be happy to have a phone conversation with you, and call you to talk about this, if you give me your number that is.

 

In Love

- Bro. Marko

 

 

Ron responds:

 

Dear Brother Marko,

 

Thank you for your response. First, I will ask a few questions and make a few statements based on your response:

 

You said: “the Angels of Heaven = The Church Triumphant = Church in Heaven = God (indirectly)”

 

·       So I would conclude that you are saying that the Church Triumphant in Heaven is constituted of angels only. Right?

·       How do members of the church militant become members of the Church Triumphant if it is constituted only of angels?

·       You said in another post that the church in heaven consisted of Moses, Elijah etc. Are they angels?

·       Do you see no Church Triumphant on earth at any time?

·       What about Philadelphia in 1844? That church was not faulted for one thing. Would you say that was a church triumphant?

·       The church in heaven (Heb. 12:22, 23) is composed of more than angels:

 

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion [Zion], and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Heb. 12:22-24.

 

·       You said the church in heaven is the church triumphant constituted of ANGELS ONLY. I find from Scripture that the church in heaven (Zion—Sion) consists of:

1.    God, Jesus.

2.    An innumerable company of angels. These are the angels who minister to the earthly bride, Zion, the earthly representative of the church in heaven.

3.    The general assembly and church of the firstborn which are written there.

1.    The spirits of just men made perfect who now enter there by faith, EW, 260, last paragraph. These are those who enter the Most Holy Place by faith, now. EW 255.

2.    It would appear from this statement that true reformers are written (registered in the church of the firstborn in heaven. “"Characteristics of True Reformers.--Here are given the characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear the banner of the third angel's message, those who avow themselves God's commandment-keeping people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in the sight of all the universe, in building up the old waste places. Who is it that calls them, The repairers of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is God. Their names are registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations of many generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1151.

 

While for some reason you chose to totally ignore the part of the weight of evidence I furnished, I will deal directly with yours and provide even more. One could “prove” most anything he/she wished by taking selected “proof texts” or selected “proof statements” from the Bible, and/or the Spirit of Prophecy. I am going to deal with qualifying statements from Scripture which you fail to do. You deal only with the Spirit of Prophecy and not all the evidence from that source.

 

I agree that if you take only the part of the weight of evidence you deal with, you are correct. But we are to take all of the weight of evidence, to wit:

 

1.    Weight of Evidence Formula: "1. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible 2. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by diligent application and study 3. Nothing revealed in Scripture can or will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering 4. To understand doctrine, bring all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to know, then let every word have its proper influence and if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error 5. Scripture must be its own expositor, [interpreter] since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound to me, and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed, or wisdom is my rule, and not the Bible." E.G. White, Second Advent Review and Herald, 11-25-84, pr. 24.

 

I believe there is stark evidence to support the reality of two churches always existing concomitantly. There is clear evidence of a bride church and a guest church. The bride church is the “barley” (first crop which ripened) church triumphant and the guest church is the “wheat” church militant, which are bridesmaidens of the bride.

 

Please reconcile the following additional evidence with your few statements which by far do not constitute all of the weight of evidence:

 

"The people of God, symbolized by a holy woman and her children, were represented as greatly in the minority. In the last days only a remnant still existed. Of these John speaks as they 'which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." E. G. White, Signs of the Times,  Nov. 1, 1899, and Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary,  vol. 7, p. 972.

 

The Church Triumphant Zion From Scripture—Who is the Holy Woman? Isaiah 62:1-5 answers that question.

 

Isaiah 62


1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by
a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. 3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. 4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. 5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. 6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, 7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. 8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured: 9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness. 10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people. 11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

 

·       The people of God constitute His church militant, the bridesmaid guests—GC 427.

·       The bride is the church triumphant, Zion, the New Jerusalem, who has earthly representatives, and the bride is the earthly representatives of the New Jerusalem, Zion, the heavenly church. GC 426-7.

·       There is a holy woman and her children. The Holy Woman, Zion, is the Mother bride. The bridesmaidens are the guests at the wedding feast.

·       The holy woman is, the bride that is married, is Zion, Isaiah 62:1-5.

·       Zion has children (sons and daughters), verses 5 and 11 respectively.

 

I will be as totally fair as I can possibly be by presenting more evidence which at first, of and by itself, will support your belief on this issue of the church triumphant. Here is that evidence:

 

The Church Militant Is Imperfect

 

     The church militant is not the church triumphant, and earth is not heaven. The church is composed of erring, imperfect men and women, who are but learners in the school of Christ, to be trained, disciplined, educated, for this life and for the future, immortal life.--ST Jan. 4, 1883. {LDE 61.2}

 

     Some people seem to think that upon entering the church they will have their expectations fulfilled, and meet only with those who are pure and perfect. They are zealous in their faith, and when they see faults in church members, they say, "We left the world in order to have no association with evil characters, but the evil is here also;" and they ask, as did the servants in the parable, "From whence then hath it tares?" But we need not be thus disappointed, for the Lord has not warranted us in coming to the conclusion that the church is perfect; and all our zeal will not be successful in making the church militant as pure as the church triumphant.--TM 47 (1893). {LDE 61.3}

 

The Church Triumphant Will Be Faithful and Christlike

 

     The work is soon to close. The members of the church militant who have proved faithful will become the church triumphant.--Ev 707 (1892). {LDE 62.1}

 

     The life of Christ was a life charged with a divine message of the love of God, and He longed intensely to impart this love to others in rich measure. Compassion beamed from His countenance, and His conduct was characterized by grace, humility, truth, and love. Every member of His church militant must manifest the same qualities, if he would join the church triumphant.--FE 179 (1891) {LDE 62.2}

 

Ron’s comments:

 

First, I am going to quote Revelation 3:7-13. I will juxtapose those verses with Isaiah 62, for important emphasis. And then I will quote a portion from The Great Controversy, 426, 427. Lights should begin to go on:

 

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Rev. 3:7-13.

 

Isaiah 62


1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by
a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. 3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. 4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. 5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. 6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, 7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. 8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured: 9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness. 10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people. 11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

 

"The marriage represents the reception by Christ of His kingdom. The Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which is the capital and representative of the kingdom, is called 'the bride, the Lamb's wife.' Said the angel to John: 'Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.' 'He carried me away in the spirit,' says the prophet, 'and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.' Revelation 21:9, 10. Clearly, then, the bride represents the Holy City, and the virgins that go out to meet the bridegroom are a symbol of the church [militant]. In the Revelation the people of God are said to be the guests at the marriage supper. Revelation 19:9. If guests, they cannot be represented also as the bride...He will receive the New Jerusalem, the capital of His kingdom, 'prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.'" E. G. White, The Great Controversy,  426, 427.

 

 

·       The confusion is due to a failure of most to distinguish between the faithful (barley—firstfruits to ripen in Judea) bride of every generation and the church militant, the wheat and tare co-ed church—the ten virgins bridesmaids.

·       We were told to strive to be one of the 144,000. The 144,000 is the church triumphant. They are blameless, Rev. 14:1-4. There have been faithful members, true reformers in every generation. The church of Philadelphia circa 1st century A.D. is a case in point. The faithful reformers of every succeeding generation constitute another case in point.

·       Would all the faithful of every generation be excluded from being one of the 144,000 just because they were not born in the last generation?

·       Would the disciples be one of the 144,000, since they are referred to as the bride of Christ in Desire of Ages, 179?

·       Isaiah 62 says Zion is the bride that is married. The bride gets the New Name, New Jerusalem. She is Philadelphian.

·       The voice of the bride awakens the ten virgins guests, to wit:

 

"Lingering near [not at] the bride's house are ten young women robed in white. Each carries a lighted lamp and a small flagon for oil. All are anxiously watching for the appearance of the bridegroom. But there is a delay [since 1844]. Hour after hour passes the watchers become weary and fall asleep. At midnight the cry is heard, 'Behold, the bridegroom cometh go ye out to meet him.' The sleepers [all ten slept Matt. 25:5], suddenly awaking, spring to their feet. They see the procession moving on, bright with torches and glad with music.  They hear the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride The ten maidens seize their lamps and begin to trim them, in haste to go forth, But five have neglected to fill their flasks with oil [character]. They did not anticipate so long a delay, and they have not prepared for the emergence." E. G. White, Christ's Object Lessons,  pp. 405, 406.

 

How many of the ten virgin bridesmaids sleep?

 

 

Matthew 25


1 “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried,
they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.” COL 405-6.

 

·       It should be clear that the bride (Zion) is different from the 10 virgin bridesmaids (guests) that the voice of God and the voice of the bride awaken.

·       Thus, the church triumphant, the bride, like the disciples, is the procession that awakens the church militant, the bridesmaids guests.

·       In order for the bride to awaken the guests, she must be formed ON EARTH, before she gives the final awakening cry, the final Midnight Cry.

·       The bride, True Reformers, is called (awakened by God). Then she awakens the guests.

·       The bride (Zion—Sion) is married in the Most Holy BEFORE Jesus comes. This is the church triumphant on earth BEFORE Jesus comes.

·       Every generation has had its bride just as the disciples were the bride of Christ, DA 179.

·       The bride of every generation is somehow regenerated for the final generation. Philadelphia (circa 1st century A.D.) was told that she would be kept through the time of trouble. Ellen White corroborates that very verse.

·       The church triumphant, the bride of every generation, has come to the aid of the various church militants as True Reformers, reforming the church in every succeeding generation, DA 232.

 

“Jesus sent His angels to direct the minds of the disappointed ones to the most holy place, where He had gone to cleanse the sanctuary and make a special atonement for Israel. Jesus told the angels that all who found Him would understand the work which He was to perform. I saw that while Jesus was in the most holy place He would be married to the New Jerusalem; and after His work should be accomplished in the holiest, He would descend to the earth in kingly power and take to Himself the precious ones who had patiently waited His return. {EW 251.1}

 

“After Jesus opened the door of the most holy, the light of the Sabbath was seen, and the people of God were tested, as the children of Israel were tested anciently, to see if they would keep God's law. I saw the third angel pointing upward, showing the disappointed ones the way to the holiest of the heavenly sanctuary. As they by faith enter the most holy, they find Jesus, and hope and joy spring up anew. I saw them looking back, reviewing the past, from the proclamation of the second advent of Jesus, down through their experience to the passing of the time in 1844. They see their disappointment explained, and joy and certainty again animate them. The third angel has lighted up the past, the present, and the future, and they know that God has indeed led them by His mysterious providence. {EW 254.2}

 

     “It was represented to me that the remnant followed Jesus into the most holy place and beheld the ark and the mercy seat, and were captivated with their glory. Jesus then raised the cover of the ark, and lo! the tables of stone, with the ten commandments written upon them. They trace down the lively oracles, but start back with trembling when they see the fourth commandment among the ten holy precepts, with a brighter light shining upon it than upon the other nine, and a halo of glory all around it. They find nothing there informing them that the Sabbath has been abolished, or changed to the first day of the week. The commandment reads as when spoken by the voice of God in solemn and awful grandeur upon the mount, while the lightnings flashed and the thunders rolled; it is the same as when written with His own finger on the tables of stone: "Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." They are amazed as they behold the care taken of the ten commandments. They see them placed close by Jehovah, overshadowed and protected by His holiness. They see that they have been trampling upon the fourth commandment of the decalogue, and have observed a day handed down by the heathen and papists, instead of the day sanctified by Jehovah. They humble themselves before God and mourn over their past transgressions.” {EW 255.1}

 

Conclusion

 

Dear Brother Marko, when you are able to resolve ALL THIS WEIGHT OF EVIDENCE so that NOTHING CONTRADICTS, then you will have arrived at the truth concerning the church triumphant versus the church militants of the world.

 

I have responded to your points, and I kindly request that you take my points ONE BY ONE and respond to them. That is the only way you will ever grasp what I am presenting. I did it for you, now please return the favor.

 

Sincerely in Christ’s love,

 

Ron Beaulieu