-----
Original Message -----
From: Marko
Leone
To: rsbeauli@telusplanet.net
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 1:22 AM
Subject: Church Triumphant in Heaven
Hello Brother
Ron
This is now a direct response from myself, Brother Marko
of Switzerland.
I hope you can respond to this plain interpretation again
of this key quote, and post it, together with your response, on your
website for the benefit of all SOP Bereans.
1. The SOP most
plainly defines the "church triumphant" to be the "church
in heaven"
“The members of the church triumphant, – the
church in heaven – will be permitted to
draw near to the members of the church militant, to aid them in their
necessity. Let us ever remember that we are laborers together with
God. In this heavenly union we shall carry forward his work
with completeness, with singing and rejoicing.”
{Ellen G. White, Southern
Watchman, September 8, 1903, par. 1,2, emphasis added}
“The Church militant is not the church
triumphant, and earth is not Heaven. The church is composed of
erring, imperfect men and women, who are but learners in the school of
Christ, to be trained, disciplined, educated for this life, and for the
future, immortal life.”
{Ellen G. White, Signs
of the Times, January 4, 1883 par. 4, emphasis added}
“We wish we had heaven here
below, but we have not. The church
militant is not the church triumphant.”
{Ellen G. White, General
Conference Daily Bulletin, April 22, 1901, par. 7}
2. In the very
same quote, when simply read in CONTEXT "the church in heaven"
is defined as "Angels of Heaven"
“Angels of heaven will ascend and descend the ladder of shining brightness,
to co-operate with human workers. The members
of the church triumphant, – the church in heaven – will
be permitted to draw near to the members of the church militant,
to aid them in their necessity. Let us ever remember that we
are laborers together with God. In this heavenly union we
shall carry forward his work with completeness, with singing and
rejoicing.”
{Ellen G. White, Southern
Watchman, September 8, 1903, par. 1,2, emphasis added}
Angels of heaven, and not men on earth!
3. Now what
about this "heavenly union"? Who exactly is uniting with whom?
When anyone
carefully reads the same quote again, it becomes so plain. From start to
finish, she is speaking about Angels of Heaven (Church
Triumphant) who will co-operate with human workers (Church
Militant) and no other 2nd human entity whatsoever. Let me
break it down.
She mentions 2 entities:
1. "angels of heaven"
2. "human workers"
...which in the next sentence she equates by
parallelism with:
1. "the church triumphant, - the
church in heaven"
2. "members of the church
militant"
...and finally once again by saying:
1. "God"
2. "we"
Thus, clearly we can conclude:
the Angels of
Heaven = The Church Triumphant = Church in Heaven = God (indirectly)
and
Human workers = members of the church
militant = we
This is the HEAVENLY UNION she speaks
about all through this quote Brother Ron!!
We (the church
MILITANT) labouring together with GOD (through His Angels of Heaven aka.
church triumphant aka. church in heaven). She never once refers in
this quote about 2 entities being ON EARTH, or these 2 entities being
humans. But only 1 being human, and the other angels. To read this favorite "double
earth co-existence people interpretation" of yours into this
passage, is to claim something that cannot be deduced from
this quote, and worse, contradicts her own definition of it being "the angels of heaven" and NOT some 2nd human beings
entity.
There is more to
share, and I would like to show you how the church militant continues to
be the true church UNTIL THE END OF TIME (without but believing that this
means that the SDA is still the church militant corporately, they are
not, but lost that high standard, but in this we do agree, for there are
conditions of being the church militant.) But please show me first where
I have twisted IN THIS QUOTE the meaning of it being angels, or simply
admit that from this quote you cannot prove that they are a 2nd human
parallel entity on earth.
I would be happy
to have a phone conversation with you, and call you to talk about this,
if you give me your number that is.
In Love
- Bro. Marko
Ron responds:
Dear Brother Marko,
Thank you for your response. First, I will ask a few
questions and make a few statements based on your response:
You said:
“the Angels of Heaven = The Church Triumphant = Church in
Heaven = God (indirectly)”
·
So I would conclude that you are saying that the Church
Triumphant in Heaven is constituted of angels only. Right?
·
How do members of the church militant become members of the
Church Triumphant if it is constituted only of angels?
·
You said in another post that the church in heaven
consisted of Moses, Elijah etc. Are they angels?
·
Do you see no Church Triumphant on earth at any time?
·
What about Philadelphia in 1844? That church was not
faulted for one thing. Would you say that was a church triumphant?
·
The church in heaven (Heb. 12:22, 23) is composed of more
than angels:
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion [Zion],
and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable
company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of
the firstborn, which are written
in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the
spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to
Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Heb. 12:22-24.
·
You said the church in heaven is the church triumphant
constituted of ANGELS ONLY. I find from Scripture that the church in
heaven (Zion—Sion) consists of:
1. God,
Jesus.
2. An innumerable
company of angels. These are the angels who minister to the earthly
bride, Zion, the earthly representative of the church in heaven.
3. The
general assembly and church of the firstborn which are written there.
1. The
spirits of just men made perfect who now enter there by faith, EW, 260,
last paragraph. These are those who enter the Most Holy Place by faith,
now. EW 255.
2. It would
appear from this statement that true reformers are written (registered in
the church of the firstborn in heaven. “"Characteristics of True
Reformers.--Here are given the characteristics of those who shall be
reformers, who will bear the banner of the third angel's message, those
who avow themselves God's commandment-keeping people, and who honor God,
and are earnestly engaged, in the sight of all the universe, in building
up the old waste places. Who is it that calls them, The repairers of the
breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is God. Their names are
registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers,
as raising the foundations of many generations." E. G. White, SDA
Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1151.
While for some reason you chose to totally ignore the part
of the weight of evidence I furnished, I will deal directly with yours
and provide even more. One could “prove” most anything he/she wished by
taking selected “proof texts” or selected “proof statements” from the
Bible, and/or the Spirit of Prophecy. I am going to deal with qualifying
statements from Scripture which you fail to do. You deal only with the
Spirit of Prophecy and not all the evidence from that source.
I agree that if you take only the part of the weight of
evidence you deal with, you are correct. But we are to take all of the
weight of evidence, to wit:
1.
Weight of Evidence Formula:
"1. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented
in the Bible 2. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by
diligent application and study 3. Nothing revealed in Scripture can or
will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering 4. To understand
doctrine, bring all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to
know, then let every word have its proper influence and if you can form
your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error 5. Scripture
must be its own expositor, [interpreter] since it is a rule of itself. If
I depend on a teacher to expound to me, and he should guess at its
meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to
be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed, or wisdom is my rule,
and not the Bible." E.G. White, Second Advent Review and Herald, 11-25-84, pr. 24.
I believe there is stark
evidence to support the reality of two churches always existing
concomitantly. There is clear evidence of a bride church and a guest
church. The bride church is the “barley” (first crop which ripened)
church triumphant and the guest church is the “wheat” church militant,
which are bridesmaidens of the bride.
Please reconcile the following
additional evidence with your few statements which by far do not
constitute all of the weight of evidence:
"The people of God, symbolized by a holy woman and her
children, were represented as greatly in the minority. In the last days
only a remnant still existed. Of these John speaks as they 'which keep
the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." E.
G. White, Signs of the Times, Nov. 1, 1899, and Seventh-day
Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 7, p. 972.
The Church Triumphant Zion From
Scripture—Who is the Holy Woman? Isaiah 62:1-5 answers that question.
Isaiah 62
1 For Zion's sake
will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's
sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness,
and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2 And the
Gentiles shall see thy
righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD
shall name. 3 Thou shalt also be a
crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of
thy God. 4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither
shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called
Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. 5 For as a young man
marrieth a virgin, so shall thy
sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth
over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. 6 I have
set watchmen upon thy walls, O
Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor
night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, 7
And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a
praise in the earth. 8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand,
and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be
meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy
wine, for the which thou hast laboured: 9 But they that have
gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought
it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness. 10 Go
through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up,
cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the
people. 11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of
the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy
salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before
him. 12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The
redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not
forsaken.
·
The people of God constitute His church militant, the bridesmaid
guests—GC 427.
·
The bride is the church triumphant, Zion, the New Jerusalem, who
has earthly representatives, and the bride is the earthly representatives
of the New Jerusalem, Zion, the heavenly church. GC 426-7.
·
There is a holy woman and her children. The Holy Woman, Zion, is
the Mother bride. The bridesmaidens are the guests at the wedding feast.
·
The holy woman is, the bride that is married, is Zion, Isaiah
62:1-5.
·
Zion has children (sons and daughters), verses 5 and 11
respectively.
I
will be as totally fair as I can possibly be by presenting more evidence
which at first, of and by itself, will support your belief on this issue
of the church triumphant. Here is that evidence:
The Church Militant Is Imperfect
The church militant is not the
church triumphant, and earth is not heaven. The church is composed of
erring, imperfect men and women, who are but learners in the school of
Christ, to be trained, disciplined, educated, for this life and for the
future, immortal life.--ST Jan. 4, 1883. {LDE 61.2}
Some people seem to think that upon
entering the church they will have their expectations fulfilled, and meet
only with those who are pure and perfect. They are zealous in their
faith, and when they see faults in church members, they say, "We
left the world in order to have no association with evil characters, but
the evil is here also;" and they ask, as did the servants in the
parable, "From whence then hath it tares?" But we need not be
thus disappointed, for the Lord has not warranted us in coming to the
conclusion that the church is perfect; and all our zeal will not be
successful in making the church militant as pure as the church
triumphant.--TM 47 (1893). {LDE 61.3}
The Church Triumphant Will Be
Faithful and Christlike
The work is soon to close. The
members of the church militant who have proved faithful will become the
church triumphant.--Ev 707 (1892). {LDE 62.1}
The life of Christ was a life
charged with a divine message of the love of God, and He longed intensely
to impart this love to others in rich measure. Compassion beamed from His
countenance, and His conduct was characterized by grace, humility, truth,
and love. Every member of His church militant must manifest the same
qualities, if he would join the
church triumphant.--FE 179 (1891) {LDE 62.2}
Ron’s
comments:
First,
I am going to quote Revelation 3:7-13. I will juxtapose those verses with
Isaiah 62, for important emphasis. And then I will quote a portion from The Great Controversy, 426, 427.
Lights should begin to go on:
7 And to the angel of
the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he
that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man
shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy
works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut
it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not
denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of
Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will
make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have
loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,
I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon
all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take
thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar
in the temple of my God, and he
shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the
name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I
will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith
unto the churches. Rev. 3:7-13.
Isaiah 62
1 For Zion's sake
will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's
sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as
brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2
And the Gentiles shall see thy
righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD
shall name. 3 Thou shalt also be a
crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of
thy God. 4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither
shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called
Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. 5 For as a young man
marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as
the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over
thee. 6 I have set watchmen upon thy
walls, O Jerusalem, which
shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the
LORD, keep not silence, 7 And give him no rest, till he
establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. 8
The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength,
Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the
sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast
laboured: 9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and
praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in
the courts of my holiness. 10 Go through, go through the
gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway;
gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people. 11
Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy
salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before
him. 12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The
redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not
forsaken.
"The marriage represents the reception
by Christ of His kingdom. The Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which is the capital and representative of the kingdom, is called 'the bride, the
Lamb's wife.' Said the angel to John: 'Come hither, I will show thee the
bride, the Lamb's wife.' 'He carried me away in the spirit,' says the prophet,
'and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from
God.' Revelation 21:9, 10. Clearly, then, the bride represents the Holy
City, and
the virgins that go out to meet the bridegroom
are a symbol of the church [militant]. In the Revelation the people of God are said to be the guests at the marriage supper.
Revelation 19:9. If guests, they cannot be represented also as the bride...He will receive the New Jerusalem, the capital of His kingdom, 'prepared as a
bride adorned for her husband.'" E. G. White, The Great
Controversy, 426, 427.
·
The confusion
is due to a failure of most to distinguish between the faithful
(barley—firstfruits to ripen in Judea) bride of every generation and the church
militant, the wheat and tare co-ed church—the ten virgins bridesmaids.
·
We were told
to strive to be one of the 144,000. The 144,000 is the church triumphant.
They are blameless, Rev. 14:1-4. There have been faithful members, true
reformers in every generation. The church of Philadelphia circa 1st
century A.D. is a case in point. The faithful reformers of every
succeeding generation constitute another case in point.
·
Would all the
faithful of every generation be excluded from being one of the 144,000 just
because they were not born in the last generation?
·
Would the
disciples be one of the 144,000, since they are referred to as the bride
of Christ in Desire of Ages,
179?
·
Isaiah 62 says
Zion is the bride that is married. The bride gets the New Name, New Jerusalem.
She is Philadelphian.
·
The voice of
the bride awakens the ten virgins guests, to wit:
"Lingering near [not at] the bride's house are ten young women robed in white. Each carries a lighted lamp
and a small flagon for oil. All are anxiously watching for the appearance
of the bridegroom. But there is a delay [since 1844]. Hour after hour
passes the watchers become weary and fall asleep. At midnight the cry is
heard, 'Behold, the bridegroom cometh go ye out to meet him.' The
sleepers [all ten slept Matt. 25:5], suddenly awaking, spring to their
feet. They see the procession moving on, bright with torches and glad
with music. They hear the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride. The ten maidens seize their
lamps and begin to trim them, in haste to go forth, But five have
neglected to fill their flasks with oil [character]. They did not
anticipate so long a delay, and they have not prepared for the
emergence." E. G. White, Christ's Object Lessons, pp. 405, 406.
How many of the ten virgin bridesmaids sleep?
Matthew
25
1 “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten
virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2
And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that
were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4
But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5
While the bridegroom tarried, they all
slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was
a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7
Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And
the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are
gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there
be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy
for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom
came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the
door was shut.” COL 405-6.
·
It should be
clear that the bride (Zion) is different from the 10 virgin bridesmaids
(guests) that the voice of God and the voice of the bride awaken.
·
Thus, the
church triumphant, the bride, like the disciples, is the procession that
awakens the church militant, the bridesmaids guests.
·
In order for
the bride to awaken the guests, she must be formed ON EARTH, before she
gives the final awakening cry, the final Midnight Cry.
·
The bride,
True Reformers, is called (awakened by God). Then she awakens the guests.
·
The bride
(Zion—Sion) is married in the Most Holy BEFORE Jesus comes. This is the
church triumphant on earth BEFORE Jesus comes.
·
Every
generation has had its bride just as the disciples were the bride of
Christ, DA 179.
·
The bride of
every generation is somehow regenerated for the final generation.
Philadelphia (circa 1st century A.D.) was told that she would
be kept through the time of trouble. Ellen White corroborates that very
verse.
·
The church
triumphant, the bride of every generation, has come to the aid of the
various church militants as True Reformers, reforming the church in every
succeeding generation, DA 232.
“Jesus sent His angels to direct the minds of the
disappointed ones to the most holy place, where He had gone to cleanse
the sanctuary and make a special atonement for Israel. Jesus told the
angels that all who found Him would understand the work which He was to
perform. I saw that while Jesus was in the
most holy place He would be married to the New Jerusalem;
and after His
work should be accomplished in the holiest, He would descend to the earth
in kingly power and take to Himself the precious ones who had patiently
waited His return.
{EW
251.1}
“After
Jesus opened the door of the most holy, the light of the Sabbath was
seen, and the people of God were tested, as the children of Israel were
tested anciently, to see if they would keep God's law. I saw the
third angel pointing upward, showing the disappointed ones the way to the
holiest of the heavenly sanctuary.
As they by faith enter the most holy, they find Jesus, and hope and joy
spring up anew. I saw them looking back, reviewing the past, from the
proclamation of the second advent of Jesus, down through their experience
to the passing of the time in 1844. They see their disappointment
explained, and joy and certainty again animate them. The third angel has
lighted up the past, the present, and the future, and they know that God
has indeed led them by His mysterious providence. {EW 254.2}
“It was represented to me that the
remnant followed Jesus into the most holy place and beheld the ark and the mercy seat, and were
captivated with their glory. Jesus then raised the cover of the ark, and
lo! the tables of stone, with the ten commandments written upon them.
They trace down the lively oracles, but start back with trembling when
they see the fourth commandment among the ten holy precepts, with a
brighter light shining upon it than upon the other nine, and a halo of
glory all around it. They find nothing there informing them that the
Sabbath has been abolished, or changed to the first day of the week. The
commandment reads as when spoken by the voice of God in solemn and awful
grandeur upon the mount, while the lightnings flashed and the thunders
rolled; it is the same as when written with His own finger on the tables
of stone: "Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the
seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." They are amazed as
they behold the care taken of the ten commandments. They see them placed
close by Jehovah, overshadowed and protected by His holiness. They see that
they have been trampling upon the fourth commandment of the decalogue,
and have observed a day handed down by the heathen and papists, instead
of the day sanctified by Jehovah. They humble themselves before God and
mourn over their past transgressions.” {EW 255.1}
Conclusion
Dear
Brother Marko, when you are able to resolve ALL THIS WEIGHT OF EVIDENCE
so that NOTHING CONTRADICTS, then you will have arrived at the truth
concerning the church triumphant versus the church militants of the
world.
I
have responded to your points, and I kindly request that you take my
points ONE BY ONE and respond to them. That is the only way you will ever
grasp what I am presenting. I did it for you, now please return the
favor.
Sincerely
in Christ’s love,
Ron
Beaulieu
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