Response to Brother Marko

on the

Church Triumphant on Earth

 

 

Part 6

 

 

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----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Beaulieu

To: AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 12:11 AM

Subject: Re: Angels work with True Reformers to Repair the Breaches and Restore the Foundations of Many Generations

 

Brother Marko says:

"bro_marko: the church triumphant is the church IN heaven...and according to the SOP comprised of all the inhabitants of HEAVEN...angels, seraphims, cherubims, Moses, Enoch, Elijah.....BUT NOBODY here on earth....there is no proof for that...we here on earth ARE ALL CHURCH MILITANT

bro_marko: give me 1 quote for this

bro_marko: 1 quote

Geo Iordache: The church in heaven

bro_marko: that the church triumphant is on earth

bro_marko: it doesn't exist...I studied ALL the quotes...have you?

Geo Iordache: is in heaven because it is resurected with Christ in Christ

Geo Iordache: but you can see the difference

Geo Iordache: Christ Jesus

Geo Iordache: is God

Geo Iordache: Through His Holy Spirit

bro_marko: in this above quote she identifies  the church triumphant as THE ANGELS...if you make THAT quote say it's humans you are plainly contradicting her."

 

Ron responds: Ellen White clearly says that the true reformers are registered (written) in heaven as well. Brother Marko will not admit to this plain fact. Not once has Brother Marko admitted that true reformers are registered IN HEAVEN.

 

"Characteristics of True Reformers.--Here are given the characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear the banner of the third angel's message, those who avow themselves God's commandment-keeping people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in the sight of all the universe, in building up the old waste places. Who is it that calls them, The repairers of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is God. Their names are registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations of many generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1151.

 

Ron

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Beaulieu

To: AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 12:04 AM

Subject: Re: Angels work with True Reformers to Repair the Breaches and Restore the Foundations of Many Generations

 

Brother Marko says: "bro_marko: because there IS NO Church triumphant existing on earth...do you not understand this?

Geo Iordache: every true servant of Christ must leave the apostate SDA Corporation

bro_marko: it does not exist on earth!

Geo Iordache: even he doesn't belong to the 144000

Geo Iordache: I believe

bro_marko: you are beginning to blur the issue here

bro_marko: we are defining the church triumphant nothing else

Geo Iordache: I believe

Geo Iordache: this Church Triumphant is on the earth

Geo Iordache: and It has always been on this earth

Geo Iordache: working together with the angels of the Lord

bro_marko: the church triumphant is the church IN heaven...and according to the SOP comprised of all the inhabitants of HEAVEN...angels, seraphims, cherubims, Moses, Enoch, Elijah.....BUT NOBODY here on earth....there is no proof for that...we here on earth ARE ALL CHURCH MILITANT"

 

Ron responds:

 

·        Was the church of Philadelphia circa 1st century a church triumphant?

·        Was Jesus' church with headquarters in Jerusalem a church triumphant?

·        Were the disciples of the church triumphant? Were they written in heaven?

·        Is Philadelphia that is kept through the time of trouble, Rev. 3:10-12, a church triumphant? Is she faulted for one thing?

·        Is the bride who awakens the 10 virgins a church triumphant? COL, 405-6.

·        Must the bride receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit before giving the final Midnight Cry call to the world? Is she a church triumphant?

·        Is the bride who represents the heavenly Jerusalem (GC 426-7) a church triumphant in contravention to the guests who are the ten virgins whom she awakens?

 

Ron

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Beaulieu

To: AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:56 PM

Subject: Re: Angels work with True Reformers to Repair the Breaches and Restore the Foundations of Many Generations

 

Brother Marko says: "Geo Iordache: they are working together

Geo Iordache: so there is a partnership

bro_marko: of course nobody denies that

Geo Iordache: between the angels and humans

Geo Iordache: that is all

bro_marko: but the teaching is evil because it teaches that there is ANOTHER CLASS ON EARTH OF HUMAN BEINGS - called church triumphant (like 144,000) and we should be among them....and leave the church militant

bro_marko: all wrong!!!"

 

Ron responds: I have always taught that the church triumphant true reformers may member with church militants that keep the commandments of God and are faithful to the work of the Lord. Ellen White and the pioneer true reformers did that. But what if a church is unfaithful to the work of the Lord and no longer keeps the commandments, thus creating a breach? What if it denies pillar, landmark doctrines once held by the pioneers? Then the true reformers work in connection with heavenly angels to restore the foundations of many generations. If the apostasy of a church militant is betrayal of the work of the Lord, and involves confederacy with Babylon, then a separation must take place and God will continue to work on this principle. This is what true reformers of every generation have had to do:

 

 "The Lord Jesus will always have a chosen people to serve Him. When the Jewish people rejected Christ, the Prince of life. He took from them the kingdom of God and gave it unto the Gentiles. God will continue to work on this principle with every branch of His work. When a church proves unfaithful to the work of the Lord, whatever their position may be, however high and sacred their calling, the Lord can no longer work with them. Others are then chosen to bear important responsibilities. But, if these in turn do not purify their lives from every wrong action, if they do not establish pure and holy principles in all their borders, then the Lord will grievously afflict and humble them and, unless they repent, will remove them from their place and make them a reproach.

God is not 'worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing' (Acts 17:25). E. G. White, The Upward Look, 131.

 

 

 "The Sanhedrin had rejected Christ's message and was bent upon His death therefore Jesus departed from Jerusalem, from the priests, the temple, the religious leaders, the people who had been instructed in the law, and turned to another class to proclaim His message, and to gather out those who should carry the gospel to all nations. As the light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeeding generation. Again and again the history of Christ's withdrawal from Judea has been repeated. When the Reformers preached the word of God, they had no thought of separating themselves from the established church but the religious leaders would not tolerate the light, and those that bore it were forced to seek another class, who were longing for the truth. In our day few of the professed followers of the Reformers are actuated by their spirit. Few are listening for the voice of God, and ready to accept truth in whatever guise it may be presented. Often those who follow in the steps of the Reformers are forced to turn away from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the word of God. And many times those who are seeking for light are by the same teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience." E.G. White, Desire of Ages, p. 232.

 

Ron

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Beaulieu

To: AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:46 PM

Subject: Re: Angels work with True Reformers to Repair the Breaches and Restore the Foundations of Many Generations

 

Brother Marko says: "bro_marko: can you see the clear and irrefutable link by the SOP in the VERY next sentence that they are ANGELS of heaven who will be permitted to come help us man?

bro_marko: after all that is who "the church IN heaven" is....it's IN HEAVEN...not on earth...there is No church triumphant right now ON EARTH...this is a false doctrine of devils

bro_marko: as long as we have to fight against the battle of evil

bro_marko: we are the church militant

bro_marko: and YOU CANNOT be better than that"

 

Ron responds: The true reformers are registered in heaven. True reformers are commandment-keeping people. Are commandment-keeping people tares and/or thorns? Are tares and/or thorns registered in heaven? 

 

"Characteristics of True Reformers.--Here are given the characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear the banner of the third angel's message, those who avow themselves God's commandment-keeping people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in the sight of all the universe, in building up the old waste places. Who is it that calls them, The repairers of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is God. Their names are registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations of many generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1151.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Beaulieu

To: AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:36 PM

Subject: Angels work with True Reformers to Repair the Breaches and Restore the Foundations of Many Generations

 

 

Brother Marko says that it is only angels in heaven that are permitted to draw near to the members of the church militant, to aid them in their necessity. His statement to George is below.

 

 

"bro_marko: “Angels of heaven will ascend and descend the ladder of shining brightness, to co-operate with human workers. The members of the church triumphant, – the church in heaven – will be permitted to draw near to the members of the church militant, to aid them in their necessity. Let us ever remember that we are laborers together with God. In this heavenly union we shall carry forward his work with completeness, with singing and rejoicing.”

 

 

bro_marko: and so the reasoning goes that...since it clearly says that the Church Triumphant "will be permitted to draw near to the members of the church militant"

bro_marko: then they must co-exist together...i.e. be some special human beings on this earth...who will be permitted to draw near to the church militant

 

 

Now I ask you: Who, according to the following statement, comes to the aid of church militants, albeit with the co-operation angels of heaven?

 

 

"Characteristics of True Reformers.--Here are given the characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear the banner of the third angel's message, those who avow themselves God's commandment-keeping people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in the sight of all the universe, in building up the old waste places. Who is it that calls them, The repairers of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is God. Their names are registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations of many generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1151.

 

·   True Reformers bear the banner of the third angel's message.

·   They build up the old waste places.

·   They repair the breach.

·   They restore the paths to dwell in.

·   Their names are registered in heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations of many generations.

·   If their names are registered in heaven, they are members of the church triumphant.

·   According to Desire of Ages, 232, these true reformers have come to the aid of truth searchers in every succeeding generation. 

·   They ended up leaving the church of their fathers because the leaders would not tolerate the light. DA 232.

·   Thus, it is both, angel's and True Reformer humans cooperating with the angel's who come to the aid of the church militants, to aid them by repairing the breaches made by those churches and restoring the foundations of many generations.

·   In the statement below, Brother Marko does mention ANGELS ONLY.

 

bro_marko: and so the reasoning goes that...since it clearly says that the Church Triumphant "will be permitted to draw near to the members of the church militant"

bro_marko: then they must co-exist together...i.e. be some special human beings on this earth...who will be permitted to draw near to the church militant

bro_marko: right?

bro_marko: you knew about this interpretation right? is this what you believe?

Geo Iordache: yes

bro_marko: ok Brother George

bro_marko: this is a mistake

 

bro_marko: the error lies in the FALSE ASSUMPTION that the church triumphant are HUMANS on earth....in fact this quote says the EXACT OPPOSITE

bro_marko: and RON is not quoting the whole picture...which gives a FALSE impression...

bro_marko: let me show you

bro_marko: 1. the SOP NEVER EVER says that Church Triumphant are humans....existings with some other group of humans called church militant...

bro_marko: the church triumphant is the church IN HEAVEN!

bro_marko: it is actually the ANGELS...and not humans here on earth

bro_marko: and this is EXACTLY what Ellen White meant...because let me quote you know the same quote again with just 1 SENTENCE BEFORE!!!...which Ron leaves out!!!

bro_marko: “Angels of heaven will ascend and descend the ladder of shining brightness, to co-operate with human workers. The members of the church triumphant, – the church in heaven – will be permitted to draw near to the members of the church militant, to aid them in their necessity. Let us ever remember that we are laborers together with God. In this heavenly union we shall carry forward his work with completeness, with singing and rejoicing.”

bro_marko: {Ellen G. White, Southern Watchman, September 8, 1903, par. 1,2, emphasis added}

bro_marko: NOW...wow

bro_marko: it becomes clear....she clearly says by PARALLELISM...that "Angels of heaven will" descend "to co-operate with human workers"...

 

 

Conclusion by Ron

 

 

·       One reason Christ and His disciples left the apostate Jewish church is because it is a principle of Scripture that one is held responsible for the apostasy of a church.  "The plain straight testimony must live in the church, or the curse of God will rest upon His people as surely as it did upon ancient Israel because of their sins. God holds His people, as a body [corporately], responsible for the sins existing in individuals among them." Testimonies, vol. 3, p. 269.

 

·       Another reasons is because Scripture teaches that it is impossible to unite with the corrupt and remain/become pure, to wit:

 

 

"It is impossible for you to unite with those who are corrupt, and still remain pure. (II Corinthians 6:14, 15 quoted). God and Christ and the heavenly host would have men know that if he unites with the corrupt he will become corrupt." E.G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 4, p. 137.

 

 

"Men in responsible positions are uniting with those in the church and out of the church, whose counsel is misleading." Testimonies, vol. 8, p. 69.

 

 

"We have a testing message to give, and I am instructed to say to our people, 'Unify, unify.' But we are not to unify with those who are departing from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. With our hearts sweet ad kind and true, we are to go forth to proclaim the message, giving no heed to those who lead away from the truth." Selected Messages, Bk. 3, p. 412 Series B, No. 2, p. 47.

 

 

Wheat and tares can grow together until the harvest—the end of probationary time. But they cannot grow together with corrupt apostasy. If they could, we need never have left Roman Catholicism and/or apostate Protestantism. Christ need not have left the apostate church of His day and gathered out those who would take the gospel to the world.

 

 

Why did Paul leave?

 

 

"And as they persisted in their rejection of the gospel the apostle (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space for three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus." Acts, 19:8, 9.

 

 

"Fearing that the faith of the believers would be endangered by continued association with these opposers of the truth, Paul separated from them, and gathered the disciples into a distinct body." E.G. White, Acts of the Apostles, p. 286.

 

                               

 "The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding that this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.

 

 

Change leaders: "There is manifested on the part of men in responsible positions an unwillingness to confess where they have been in the wrong and their neglect is working disaster, not only to themselves, but to the churches....You will be left to make mistakes of a similar character, you will continue to lack wisdom, and will can sin righteousness and righteousness sin. The multitude of deceptions that will prevail in these last days will encircle you, and you will change leaders, and not know that you have done so." E.G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 2, 448.

 

 

Change leaders: "The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding that this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.

 

 

Ellen White clearly states in The Great Controversy, p. 25, 1911, edition, that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was a PREFIGURE. Prefigure means TYPE, which demands a similar ANTITYPICAL FULFILLMENT. Then she says that another LITERAL FULFILLMENT of Ezekiel 9 will occur. So all we have to do is go back to the TYPE, THE PREFIGURE and see what happened then, and any other interpretation makes Ellen White a false prophet:

1) Who left who then? The good left the Bad.

2) Where were the tares gathered? Into the Midst of Jerusalem, the apostate church, Ezekiel 22:17-31.

 

 

—rb