A Rebuttal to Ulicia Unruh and Bryan Bissell on Ezekiel 9

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 Dear Reader,


Ulicia Unruh and Bryan Bissell are trying to convince folk on SDA Internet forums that Ellen White never said that the church could be any part of Babylon. That is most unfortunate, for it makes Ellen White a self-contradictory false prophet if they are right, because I will produce the statements wherein Ellen White indeed said that the church could become a part of Babylon.


Bryan said:


----- Original Message -----

From: Mr Bryan Bissell

To: SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:09 PM

Subject: Re: [SDAIssues] 1893/1956




PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT KEEP ON STATING THIS.  IT'S WHOLLY FALSE.  You seem very sincere and honest in almost everything.  But this one area, you keep on stating things that are most blatantly false.  I've sent several times lists of quotes ranging from the 1880s to the 1910s saying that the SDA church will never be Babylon.  In fact, most of the quotes saying that SDA could be Babylon are from the 1880s..and a couple from Kellogg's apostasy time.  Study the truth and facts and don't keep on saying things that are blatantly untrue.  I believe you're not intending to do this, but every time you say those quotes are only from 1893, it's a complete untruth. Be careful not to deal in untruths.




Ulicia Unruh said:



----- Original Message -----

From: Ulicia

To: SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:50 PM

Subject: [SDAIssues] Re: 1893/1956


Robert Sessler at lightministries keeps these people well supplied with his twisted, out of context, quoting and piecing together of bits and pieces from Ellen White to sustain  anti-Adventism.
The very twisting and false representation of the writings of EGW on his website is enough to turn anyone with any sense of right and wrong away from his teachings with a shudder and horror.


It is a classic example of the very thing EGW dreaded that people would do (cut and piece her writings to make them say anything they want with utter disregard to what she was actually saying)


No where in all her writings does she say the fourth angel is announcing a call out of the Seventh-day Adventist church -- NO WHERE.  Yet by cutting and pasting bits and pieces they try to make her say that.

There is no doubt in my mind that EGW plainly states is  correct  --

"The message to pronounce the Seventh-Day Adventist Church Babylon, and call the people of God out of her, does not come from any heavenly messenger, or any human agent inspired by the Spirit of God.  {2SM 66.2}


"To claim that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, is to make the same claim as does Satan, who is an accuser of the brethren, who accuses them before God night and day. By this misusing of the Testimonies, souls are placed in perplexity, because they cannot understand the relation of the
Testimonies to such a position as is taken by those in error; for God intended that the Testimonies should always have a setting in the framework of truth.  {TM 42.1}


"My brother, I learn that you are taking the position that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, and that all that would be saved must come out of her. You are not the only man the devil has deceived in this matter. {TM 58.4}

How much stronger do you want it ???


Ronís Commentary: Ulicia, I will tell you how much stronger I want it. I want a statement wherein Ellen White says that the church would NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, become a part of Babylon! That is what I want. And when you produce that statement, I will forsake any belief in Ellen White, because she made a number of statements saying that the church could become a part of Babylon and I am including those statements in this rebuttal.

Also, I want strong evidence that a prefigure DOES NOT have a literal counterpart at the end-time! End Ronís comment.


The message is clear --
 don't call the Seventh-day Adventist Church Babylon, don't call people out.  To do so is siding with Satan.

And yes EGW does use the word NEVER--

"But we have never had a message that the Lord would disorganize the church. We have never had the prophecy concerning Babylon applied to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, or been informed that the "loud cry" consisted in calling God's people to come out of her; for this is not God's plan concerning Israel.  {RH, October 3, 1893 par. 12}


Ronís Commentary: Notice the date, October 3, 1893. Notice the tenseóďNever had.Ē That is past tense. This is used to mean that Ellen White never said that the church could or would become any part of Babylon. That is a false teaching. End Ronís comment.

Contrary to Sessler's main thesis that everyone is to disconnect and be on their own --  EGW clearly states:


"Those who have proclaimed the Seventh-day Adventist Church as Babylon, have made use of the Testimonies in giving their position a seeming support; but why is it that they did not present that which for years has been the burden of my message--the unity of the church? Why did they not quote the words of the angel, "Press together, press together, press together"? Why did they not repeat the admonition and state the principle, that "in union there is strength, in division there is weakness"? It is such messages as these men have borne that divide the church, and put us to shame before the enemies of truth; and in such messages is plainly revealed the specious working of the great deceiver,"  TM 56


Ronís Commentary: "To secure peace and unity they were ready to make any concession consistent with fidelity to God but they felt that even peace would be too dearly purchased at the sacrifice of principle. If unity could be secured only by the compromise of truth and righteousness, then let there be difference, and even war" (Great Controversy, p. 45).

And ignoring this quote as well:

"Some have advanced the thought that as we near the close of time, every child of God will act independently of any religious organization. But I have been instructed by the Lord that in this work there is no such thing as every man's being independent. The stars of heaven are all under law, each influencing the other to do the will of God, yielding their common obedience to the law that controls their action. And, in order that the Lord's work may advance healthfully and solidly, His people must draw together."  {GW 487.2}


Ronís Commentary: Ellen White said that God will take the work into His own hands and when He does that, that is the ultimate organization. Jesus and the twelve had organization. The fifty faithful out of 120,000-150,000 on October 23, 1844, were organized under God. They were the church of Philadelphia. Philadelphia was never formally organized. God will finish the work by His Holy Spirit:


The following have no ďformalĒ organization:


"A Firmament of Chosen Ones.--Among earth's inhabitants, scattered in every land, there are those who have not bowed the knee to Ball. Like the stars of heaven, which appear only at night, these FAITHFUL ONES will shine forth when darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people. In heathen Africa, in the Catholic lands of Europe and of South America, in China, in India, in the islands of the sea, and in all the dark corners of the earth, God has in reserve a firmament of CHOSEN ONES that will yet shine forth amidst the darkness, revealing clearly to an apostate world the transforming power of obedience to His law. Even now they are appearing IN EVERY NATION, AMONG EVERY TONGUE AND PEOPLE and in the hour of deepest apostasy, when Satan's supreme effort is made to cause 'all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond,' to receive, under penalty of death, the sign of allegiance to a false rest day, these faithful ones, 'blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke,' will 'shine as light in the world.'" The darker the night, the more brilliantly will they shine." E.G. White, Evangelism,707, and Prophets and Kings, pp. 188, 189.


The Ellen White Statements That Prove Ulicia and Bryan as Errant


If I can produce one statement by Ellen White that says the church could become Babylon, you are wrong in your interpretation of other statements you use to say it will never happen! Here is more than one such statement that the church could become part of Babylon:


 "The world must not be introduced into the church, and married to the church, forming a bond of unity. Through this means the church will become indeed corrupt, and as stated in Revelation, 'a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.'" Testimonies to Ministers, p. 265.


The church was married to the world in the early 1930's when a few leaders adopted the world's Accreditation Standards for our educational facilities. Satan could have no finer track to the youth of the church than through the world's education curriculum.


"If the church of God becomes LUKEWARM [LAODICEAN] it does not stand in favor with God any more than do the churches that are represented as having fallen and become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Those who have had opportunities to hear and receive the truth, and who have united with the Seventh-day Adventist church, calling themselves the commandment keeping people of God, and yet possess no more vitality and consecration to God than do the nominal churches, will receive of the plagues of God just as verily as the churches who oppose the law of God." E.G. White, Letter 35, 1898.


Did the church become Laodicean? Has the church remained Laodicean? No! It has become both COLD APOSTATE AND LUKEWARM. The liberals are cold apostate, and the conservatives are lukewarm.


If Laodicea is not regarded with any more favor by God than the fallen churches, and the call of Laodicea is to all churches, then there is no difference between Laodicea and the fallen churches as far as being in a fallen state is concerned. Different churches believe different aspects of Babylonian teachings, but Ellen White equates them all as far as falling from the favor of God is concerned, and as far as constituting the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird.


"We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree...We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird, and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? E. G. White, Manuscript Releases No. 449, pp. 17, 18. (Letter 51, 1886 to Elder Butler) Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce, p. 193.


An Adventist Review article says that the church has the same divorce rate per capita percentage ration as the world. Does that sound like the unlawful intimacies have been curbed and the camp has been cleansed?


"In the balances of the sanctuary the Seventh-day Adventist church is to be weighed. She will be judged by the privileges and advantages that she has had. . . .I saw our Instructor pointing to the garments of so-called righteousness. Stripping them of, He laid bare he defilement beneath. Then He said to me: 'Can you not see how they have pretentiously covered up their defilement and rottenness of character? How is the faithful city become an harlot?" E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 8, pp. 247-250.


Can anyone tell me when the church reformed and revived from it's harlot stance?


"The church cannot measure herself by the world nor by the opinion of men nor by what she ONCE was. Her faith and her position in the world as they NOW ARE must be COMPARED (JUDGED) with what they would have been if her course had been continually onward and upward. The church will be weighed in the balances of the sanctuary. If her moral character and spiritual state do not correspond with the benefits and blessings God has conferred upon her, SHE WILL BE FOUND WANTING." Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 83, 84.


"When this church is weighed in the balances of the sanctuary, it is found wanting, having left its first love....What is the fatal deficiency?--'Thou has left thy first love...'

The light that gladdened your heart when you first understood the message for this time is an essential element in your experience and labors, and this has been lost out of your heart and life. Christ beholds your lack of zeal, and declares that you have FALLEN, and are in a perilous position." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, pp. 462-3.


Questions for Ulicia and Bryan


      Was A.D. 27-70 a manifestation of Ezekiel 9?

      Did that manifestation involve a literal apostate church?

      Did Ellen White say that manifestation was a prefigure? Would that ďprefigureĒ demand a literal antitypical fulfillment?

      According to Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 211, where does the prefigure begin?

      Relative to the sealing of Ezekiel 9, circa A.D. 27-70, were there two Jerusalem church headquarters prior to A.D. 66, when all true Christians fled to Pella?

      Did one true Christian receive sealing in the apostate Jewish church in Jerusalem?

      Where were the disciples at the Pentecost sealing? Were they at the Temple?

      Does Isaiah 4:1-4, in reference to Jerusalem andZion, contradict Isaiah 37:31, 32?

      Where was true Zion and ďJerusalem,Ē in A.D. 27-70?

      According to Ezekiel, the greater light, where are the tares (dross) gathered according to Ezekiel 22:17-31? Where were they gathered in the prefigure of A.D. 27-70?

      Does Ellen White liken the world and the church to a field where the tares are burned?

      Karl Wagner says that Ezekiel 9 occurs in the general destruction? Ellen White says that it begins at His Sanctuary, Testimonies,Vol. 5, 211. How can the church be a visible entity at the beginning of the general destruction of Ezekiel 9, and at the same time obey the three angelís messages to not take the mark and not be able to buy and sell?

      You seem comforted that Ezekiel 9 does not begin until the general destruction. Why do you find that comforting? Is that not a peace and safety allusion and illusion?

      Was Ezekiel 5 written more for us than for the Jews?

      In Ezekiel 5, which is updated to end-time context by verse 9, cf. Matthew 24:21, the church is paraded before the world as a taunt and an instruction (KJV). So indeed, it will be around. But why? How? How can the church obey the three angelís messages and still be a visible entity at the beginning of the general destruction of the world?



Ulicia also wrote:


----- Original Message -----

From: Ulicia

To: SDAIssues@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:22 AM

Subject: [SDAIssues] Re: SDA Partners in Innovation Forum


Yes, Ezekiel 9 will be literally fulfilled in the future and EGW also tells us WHEN it will be literal.

And it's not the Shepherd Rod (and those who seem to have adopted the Shepherd Rod) interpretation. 

Contrary to Sessler and all his followers Ė


Notice the following:

"Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others He said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." Ezekiel 9:1, 3-6. {CET 185.2}

     Jesus is about to leave the mercy seat of the heavenly sanctuary, to put on garments of vengeance, and pour out His wrath in judgments upon those who have not responded to the light God has given them.

The  sealing process --
Where does the angel go to affix the seal?
They go to Jerusalem -- ah, the people who receive the sealing  are still in church !


There is no message here that they must first come out of the church before they can be sealed. 


Ronís Commentary: Ezekiel 9 was written long before any sealing of the Jews took place and a sealing was required before the destruction of Jerusalem. Ulicia is saying that all true Christians, circa A.D. 27-70, had to be sealed in the apostate church at Jerusalem. Where is there any evidence for that? Show me one person (trueChristian) who was sealed at the apostate Temple in Jerusalem. Remember, that there were two church headquartered in Jerusalemóthe church of Jesus and His disciples, and the apostate church. End Ronís comment.


Notice the future application -- Jesus is about to leave the mercy seat -- the literal fulfillment of the destruction of those without the seal happens AFTER PROBATION CLOSES.


Ronís Commentary: Of course the literal destruction occurs after probation closes. But that does not mean that probation for the church does not close before the close of general probation. Did the probation for apostate Israel close before the general destruction at the end-time? Did the probation for apostate Rome and her daughters (as fallen organizations) close before the general destruction? Has the cry Babylon is fallen been going on since 1844?


Then EGW tells us more specifically when it happens.


Ronís Commentary: When it happens is not so crucial as to why it happens and who is involved. Jeremiah 11:9-15 is proof that probation can close for a people in any given generation. We are responsible for the apostasy in the church NOW. Ellen White said that apostasy will wax stronger until Jesus comes. End comment.

Go to GC 654-656

In this passage the plagues have already fallen, God has revealed Himself and spoken to deliver the saints.  The whole world now knows the truth that they have been fighting against God Himself.

"The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to
persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. "We are lost!" they cry, "and you are the cause of our ruin;" and they turn upon the false shepherds.... "They began at the ancient men which were before the house." Ezekiel 9:1-6. The work of destruction begins among those who have professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together.  {GC 656.2} 


Ronís Commentary: According to the following evidence, will SDA pastors be prophesying smooth things?


Begin at My Sanctuary -- "Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus 'Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together." E. G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211. End Ronís comments.


There is no message here saying we have to leave God's church before receiving the seal at all.

However, Adventists who fail to "keep the commands and have the faith of Jesus, and influence others to transgress "will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons" 3T267.


Ronís Commentary: Ezekiel 22:17-31 tells where the tares (dross) are gathered for burning and melting. Ezekiel wrote for the prefigure of A.D. 70. God and Ellen White say that he wrote more for us than the Jews. If the church of Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211, is so bad that men, maidens and little children all perish together without mercy, and it will NEVER AGAIN show the House of Jacob its sins, that is a call out message! That church will take the mark! That church will continue after the Mark is enforced and will be around for literal destruction after probation is closed! Who would be sealed in such a church? Who was sealed in such a church in the prefigure experience of Israel.


Isaiah also wrote more for us than for the Jews, and he said it all in the following verses:


Isa 37:31And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:


Isa 37:32For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this


The above verses do not contradict Isaiah 4:1-4:


Isa 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.


Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth [shall be] excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.


Isa 4:3And it shall come to pass, [that he that is] left in Zion, and [he that] remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, [even] every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:


Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Isaiah 4:1-4 and Isaiah 37:31, 32, do not contradict. The interpretations of Adventists in general and Ulicia and Bryan specifically, contradict the evidence of the greater light which does not contradict the lesser light.


Ezekiel 5:1-3, also agrees with Isaiah (above). Ezekiel saw a small remnant saved before the remaining three-thirds is destroyed.


Statements that Ulicia and Bryan seem to avoid are as follows: https://omega77.tripod.com/leavestate.htm


Nothing could be safer to follow than the ďprefigureĒ of Ezekiel 9 as it was fulfilled in the experience of Israel. That was a type of what is transpiring in the professing Seventh-day Adventist church. That was a type of the outcome of the church. A faithful remnant will escape as in the prefigure.