My Response to Karl Wagner

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Karl’s words are in black print. I didn’t correct his spelling errors. Any other color print--my words.

----- Original Message -----

From: Karl

Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:07 PM

Subject: [SDAIssues] Re: Infidel Authors

Ron,
Your position makes James White, Joseph Bates, J. N. Andrews and all dumb-dog leaders when they formed the church in 1860/63. We understood by late 1856 that we were Laodicea, so you're saying we should never have organized, and that we did, we should never have joined it. Yet it is the one bringing people to the knowledge of the three angels message.

Ron responds: According to Ellen White, the church was Laodicean before it was formed in 1863. It was Ellen White who said that if it became Laodicean, it would not stand in the favor of God any more than the fallen churches, to wit:

"If the church of God becomes LUKEWARM [LAODICEAN] it does not stand in favor with God any more than do the churches that are represented as having fallen and become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Those who have had opportunities to hear and receive the truth, and who have united with the Seventh-day Adventist church, calling themselves the commandment keeping people of God, and yet possess no more vitality and consecration to God than do the nominal churches, will receive of the plagues of God just as verily as the churches who oppose the law of God." E.G. White, Letter 35, 1898.

So please don’t attribute to me, something Ellen White stated!

That is the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking, not Ron Beaulieu. It is of a truth that God gives Laodicea a time to reform and come out of that state--to buy gold tried in the fire--faith that works by love. But the church has never done that and it remained in the Laodicean state until the latter 1950's when it progressed beyond a mere lukewarm state to cold apostasy and formed a new movement that removed God, Selected Messages, Bk. 1, 204-205. Then is conspired (in secrecy) to rejoin the church to Babylon's associations (Ministerial Associations) and confederacies--its World Council via its National Councils. When apostate Israel did this very same thing in Jeremiah's day, Jeremiah Chapters 7 and 11, God said not to pray for them. That connotes unpardonable sin. Ellen White quoted the apostles as saying that very condition would accrue at the end time involving a COUNTERPART people and the only people who directly parallel the Jews in claiming to be a chosen, remnant, commandment-keeping people are professing Seventh-day Adventists who have formed an apostate new movement that has removed God and pillar doctrines and teaches a new gospel of "only believe," the doctrine of the Nicolaitans--who believe that law keeping has nothing to do with being a CONDIITION of justification, but is only a fruit of already having been saved. That is a lie, for true repentance--a complete turning away from sin, is a condition for justification and must ACCOMPANY justification. Karl once called the following quote by Ellen White HERESY:

"No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty....As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and co-operates with God, he works out in the life what God WORKS IN by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory....It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained." E.G. White, Selected Messages, Bk. 1, pp. 396-397.

SEE BELOW

"We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We cannot discern the character of God, OR ACCEPT CHRIST BY FAITH, unless we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. To all who do this the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ 'dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and in Him ye are made full.' Col. 2:9, 10, R.V." Desire of Ages, 181.

In an effort to harmonize all of the following Bible and Spirit of Prophecy data, I want to make a clarification.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Ellen White cannot gainsay James 2:24. Karl Wagner cannot gainsay James 2:24. No true believer can gain say James 2:24.

The only way to interpret James 2:24, Gal. 2:16 and the following Ellen G. White statements so that none contradicts is to believe that obedience occurs AT THE SAME TIME JUSTIFICATION OCCURS AND NOT BEFORE and/or ONLY AFTER AS FRUIT. The fruit of faith must occur commensurately with justification or there is no justification whatsoever. And continued justification will include the fruit of obedience that was a CONDITION to justification, which is inherent in true repentance which is also a CONDITION for justification.

Obedience is the fruit--results--of faith and both must occur concurrently AT THE SAME TIME for one to be justified. Therefore, obedience is a CONDITION to justification as well as a continuing fruit of continued Justification.

But to maintain that obedience is not a CONDITION to justification occurring AT THE SAME TIME ONE IS JUSTIFIED, is to teach the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans which states that obedience (law-keeping) has absolutely nothing to do with justification.

"Obedience is the fruit of faith. Faith, of course, is what results in our receiving Justification. Therefore, obedience in the life , and sanctification, could never precede justification. We come to Jesus, in a surrendered, obedient HEART, in a willingness to obey. Steps to Christ, p. 62.

"If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Savior, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God as if you had not sinned." Steps to Christ, p. 62.

So the apostate church brings people to the message, then it’s up to guys like to try to call them out, declaring the organized church Babylon. Defective as Israel was, they were God's chosen people until 34 AD.

Ron responds: That is correct. Defective as Israel was, they were God's chosen people until A.D. 34. A.D. 34 was the close of the 490 years probation given to put away sin. But we find in Jeremiah 11:9-15, that the Jews in Jeremiah's day closed their probation on a generational basis because God told him not to even pray for them.

From A.D. 34 and on until A.D. 70, the disciples gathered faithful Jews into home churches. Why? Because God knew that any church edifices would only be destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70. And indeed, that is exactly what happened. God knows that any church edifices constructed by His faithful remnant NOW, would only be destroyed at His coming which is imminent. So God would not have us construct edifices at this time. We are to worship at home.

Scripture on Home Churches

Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Act 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Act 16:40 And they went out of the prison, and entered into [the house of] Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.

Act 18:7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain [man's] house, named Justus, [one] that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

Rom 16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my well beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1Cr 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1Cr 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

1Cr 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Ellen White on Home Churches

When the young men and women were kept away from the Alpha of apostasy in the church, what did they do? Where did they meet for worship?

Ellen White on Home Churches in the Alpha of Apostasy:

"There is a little hope in one direction: Take the young men and women, and place them where they will come as little in contact with our churches as possible, that the low grade of piety which is current in this day shall not leaven their ideas of what it means to be a Christian." E.G. White, Manuscript Release #995, p. 5.

Way back in the time of Shiloh, many centuries B.C., faithful worshippers of God declined to go to the Temple because they feared the influence of recreant priests:

"The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding that this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.

GOD PROPHESIED THE APOSTASY OF SPIRITUAL "JERUSALEM," PROFESSING SDA'S AT THE END-TIME

The only people who could counterpart (parallel) God's first chosen people, who claimed to be His remnant commandment-keeping people is professing Seventh-day Adventists who make the very same claims.

COUNTERPART: "The Lord commanded one of his ancient servants, 'Pray not thou for this people [Jer. 7:16 and 11:14], neither lift up cry nor prayer for them neither make intercession to me for I will not hear thee.' The prophet thus describes the sins which had called forth this fearful denunciation: 'The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means and my people love to have it so and what will ye do in the end thereof?' 'From the least of them even unto the greatest of them, every one is given to covetousness and from the prophet even unto the priest, every one dealeth falsely. They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace, when there is no peace.' The apostles declare that this state of things will find its COUNTERPART in the last days. Many have a form of godliness, but in their daily life deny the power thereof. They have ceased to be convicted of their sins or alarmed at their state. They say in their hearts, 'The church is flourishing. Peace and spiritual prosperity are within her borders.' The words of the prophet may well apply to these self-deceivers, 'They have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them." E. G. White, Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 11-07-82.

COUNTERPART: "In the time of the Saviour, the Jews had so covered over the precious jewels of truth with the rubbish of tradition and fable, that it was impossible to distinguish the true from the false. The Saviour came to clear away the rubbish of superstition and long-cherished errors, and to set the jewels of God's word in the framework of truth. What would the Saviour do if he should come to us now as he did to the Jews? He would have to do a similar work in clearing away the rubbish of tradition and ceremony. The Jews were greatly disturbed when he did this work [As are SDAs today!]. They had lost sight of the original truth of God, but Christ brought it again to view. It is our work to free the precious truths of God from superstition and error." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 308.

There is a modern COUNTERPART to the ancient apostate "chosen people" of God. That modern COUNTERPART is the people who claim to be the modern "chosen people" of God, the remnant, God’s commandment-keeping people if you will.

There are over 100 statements to the affect that SDAs are repeating the history of ancient Israel. Here are just a few of them:

"I have been shown that the spirit of the world is fast leavening the church. You are following the same path as did ancient Israel. There is the same falling away from your holy calling as God's peculiar people. You are having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. Your [ecumenical] concord with unbelievers have provoked he Lord's displeasure. You know not the things that belong to your peace, and they are fast being hid from your eyes. [The very words applied to fallen Israel on page 17 of The Great Controversy] Your neglect to follow the light will place you in a more unfavorable position than the Jews upon whom Christ pronounced a woe." Testimonies, Vol. 5, pp. 75-76.

"Like ancient Israel, the church has dishonored her God by departing from the light, neglecting her duties, and abusing her high and exalted privilege of being peculiar and holy in character. Her members have violated their covenant to live for God and him only. They have joined with the selfish and world-loving. Pride, the love of pleasure, and sin have been cherished, and CHRIST HAS DEPARTED. His Spirit has been quenched in the church. Satan works wide by side with professed Christians yet they are so destitute of spiritual discernment that they do not detect him." E.G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 2, pp. 441-442.

"Among the professed followers of Christ, there is the same pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, and OPPRESSION, that existed in the Jewish nation." E.G. White, Sketches from the Life of Paul, 251-252.

"God's professed people are selfish and self-caring....They are idolaters, and are worse, in the sight of God, than the heathen, graven-image worshippers who have had no knowledge of a better way." Testimonies, Vol. 2, 440-441.

Am I remiss in observing (reasoning) that worse than heathen, graven-image worshippers, means worse than Babylon? Especially after knowing the truth and a knowledge of a better way! If I am how and why? and if I am I apologize. By the above statement it is flattery, presumption, and patronization error to refer to the apostate SDA church as Babylon! No, let it not be said by one Tom Cusack that Ron Beaulieu believes the church is Babylon! I concur with Ellen White that God's professed people are worse than Babylonian heathen. “What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are ALL WRONG?” Testimonies, Vol. 3, pp. 253, 254.

Why are Professing SDA's Not Given 490 Years Probation Like the Ancient Jews?

SDA's are not given 490 years of probation like the Jews, for at least seven important reasons:

1. They had the example of the Jews to learn from.

2. In Jeremiah's day, Jeremiah Chapters 7 and 11 prove that a people can close their probation on a generational basis because Jeremiah was told not to even pray for the Jews of his day, which connotes unpardonable sin.

3. Advancing beyond "playing the harlot" to MARRY (confederate) with Satan's forces, God's enemies, is God's line in the sand which results in unpardonable sin.

4. The professing SDA church crossed God's line in the sand in the latter 1950's till now, by re-joining Babylon's associations, counsels/councils and confederacies via liaison with Babylon's ecumenical movement to reunite all churches into the unity of one church.

5. When SDA's conspired to join Babylon's associations, councils and confederacies, they also began to fulfill every specification of Selected Messages, Bk. 1, 204-205. They formed a new movement AMONG (WITHIN) the church and took it over. That new movement removed God, ibid. p. 205.

6. That new movement began to remove pillar doctrines and replace them with similar doctrines that Babylon teaches on the human nature of Christ and the Godhead.

7. That new movement ceased to be God's commandment-keeping people when in addition to all of the above abominations, its General Conference leadership advised parents in Russia to send their children to school on Sabbath. That condition still exists to this day and will continue until the end.

Defective as the church may be, it is the church God called into existence after 1844. It is the vehicle God has called to give the last warning message. Defective it is, defunct it will be; yet it is the church of Christ. It is not denominations Jesus is coming to save, but people.

Ron responds: If God worked on the principle that a church was to be the true church to the end NO MATTER WHAT APOSTASY IT COMMITTED, Jesus would not have gathered out of and separated from the apostate Jewish church; Protestants would not have separated from Roman Catholicism; Adventists would not have separated from the fallen Protestant churches in 1844.

I agree with Karl that defective as the TRUE SDA church may be, it is the vehicle God has called to give the last warning message. I agree with Karl that the true church is not DENOMINATIONS--even the SDA denomination, for Ellen White said the same thing:

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denomination; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. 'Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them' [Matt. 18:20]. Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church." The Upward Look, 315.

"Those who keep God's Commandments, those who live not by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, compose the church of the living God." 1MR 296

The SDA omega of apostasy new movement does not KEEP God's commandments when its leaders instruct the parents of Russian children to send them to school on Sabbath. Waldensian children were drowned in front of their parents for remaining faithful to God's truth. What would excuse SDA adults and children today in breaking God's commandments?

"To the end of time, the presence of the Spirit is to abide with the true church." CS 251.

"Jesus sees His true church on the earth, whose greatest ambition is to cooperate with Him in the grand work of saving souls." HP 284

"God calls the church His body. The church is the bride, the Lamb's wife. God is the Father of the family, the shepherd of the flock. But a mere outward connection with any church will not save a man. It is personal faith in a personal Savior that brings the soul into spiritual union with Christ." 16 MR 277

Concerning the "defective as it is" statement Karl has selected as only part of the evidence, we have the following statement which he chose to omit as an important part of the evidence:

"The Lord Jesus will always have a chosen people to serve Him. When the Jewish people rejected Christ, the Prince of life. He took from them the kingdom of God and gave it unto the Gentiles. God will continue to work on this principle with every branch of His work. When a church proves unfaithful to the work of the Lord, whatever their position may be, however high and sacred their calling, the Lord can no longer work with them. Others are then chosen to bear important responsibilities. But, if these in turn do not purify their lives from every wrong action, if they do not establish pure and holy principles in all their borders, then the Lord will grievously afflict and humble them and, unless they repent, will remove them from their place and make them a reproach.

God is not 'worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing' (Acts 17:25). E. G. White, The Upward Look, 131.

Karl, like most deluded SDA's, uses the "defective as it is" statement to try to maintain that no matter what the SDA church does by way of gross apostasy abominations, God will still use that church as His instrument for spreading the gospel to the world. The above statement denies that concept. God cannot use a church that has removed Him. In fact, any church that removes Him can no longer claim to be a "church," because Ellen White said that only His presence can constitute a church, The Upward Look, 315. So the new movement is led by Satan and became the Synagogue of Satan, just as the apostate Jewish organization became.

Did God use the apostate Jewish Temple as His church NO MATTER HOW DEFECTIVE IT BECAME? Nay! Defective does not mean apostate. The church of Christ and His disciples had defective members, but they were not apostate and did not teach a false gospel and remove God.

The fact you pulled away diminishes anything you have to say to me against the denomination, for you are now on your own. You would split the work up into many atoms and hinder its work by making it appear defective in the eyes of non-Adventists, giving them more reason to shun the message and the truth. You are doing the work Satan loves. Stop calling people out of the SDA denomination and start calling people out of the churches of the world.

Ron responds: In an earlier statement, Karl said that denominations don't matter. Now he is intimating the denomination does matter. Jesus "pulled away" and separated from the apostate church of his day:

"Christ was a protestant...The Reformers date back to Christ and the apostles. They came out and separated themselves from a religion of forms and ceremonies. Luther and his followers did not invent the reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the apostles." E.G. White, Review and Herald, vol. 2, 48, col. 2.

Paul left

"And as they persisted in their rejection of the gospel the apostle (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus." Acts, 19:8, 9.

"Fearing that the faith of the believers would be endangered by continued association with these opposers of the truth, Paul separated from them, and gathered the disciples into a distinct body." E.G. White, Acts of the Apostles, p. 286.

"The Sanhedrin had rejected Christ's message and was bent upon His death therefore Jesus departed from Jerusalem, from the priests, the temple, the religious leaders, the people who had been instructed in the law, and turned to another class to proclaim His message, and to gather out those who should carry the gospel to all nations.

As the light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeeding generation. Again and again the history of Christ's withdrawal from Judea has been repeated. When the Reformers preached the word of God, they had no thought of separating themselves from the established church but the religious leaders would not tolerate the light, and those that bore it were forced to seek another class, who were longing for the truth. In our day few of the professed followers of the Reformers are actuated by their spirit. Few are listening for the voice of God, and ready to accept truth in whatever guise it may be presented. Often those who follow in the steps of the Reformers are forced to turn away from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the word of God. And many times those who are seeking for light are by the same teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience." E.G. White, Desire of Ages, 232.

And remember that Ellen White quotes the apostles in saying that there will be a COUNTERPART parallel to the Jews Jeremiah was instructed not to pray for. If we cannot pray for them, pray tell, what virtue is there in remaining amongst them? And in Jeremiah 11:15 God asks the question:

¹⁵What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.

His beloved is His bride. His house is His church. The church in Jeremiah's day had wrought lewdness. In chapter 11 verses 9 and 10, they conspired with God's enemies (Babylon) and returned to the iniquities of their forefathers, just like SDA's have returned to the iniquities of their forefathers--the fallen churches of Babylon. That is not mere "defectiveness" which God ignores any more than He ignored it as manifested by the ancient Jews in B.C. times. He told Jeremiah not to pray for them and that means they had committed unpardonable sin by reuniting with the iniquities of their forefathers after being called out from them.

As for me, I have every right to stand in the conference building, look my conference president in the eye and tell him that the papal flag paraded in the last GC session doesn't impress me. Because I'm fully franchised. I'm in, not out. I'm part of the solution, not part of the problem. If ever I find my self on the outside, it'll be because I was kicked out, not because I walked out.

Ron responds: You are giving your own personal opinion Karl as to a proper response to apostasy. The great reformers in all ages, the great prophets of all ages, including Jesus Christ, did not consider being fully franchised as a condition to sigh and cry for all the abominations. So you are refuted by every true reformer, who ever lived, including Jesus Christ. Need I say more?! No! But I will. Some say that they are not going to run away. They are going to stay and fight! They intimate that leaving, separation, is cowardice. Was Christ a coward? Was Luther a coward? Were all the great reformers of all ages, including the Waldensian's, cowards?

And still then, my eye would be on God's people, both in and out of the church. But you already have every leader in the church pegged as a dumb-dog. It doesn't matter. Leader in the SDA Church equals dumb-dog to you, no discussion. Any problems the church organization has will be repeated the second anyone organizes a new one.

Ron responds: You do err greatly in saying it is Ron Beaulieu who pegged as dumb-dogs EVERY LEADER. God says ALL three times in the following Biblical account which Ellen White mentions in Testimonies, Vol., 5, p. 211, in reference to “dumb dogs,” who will NEVER AGAIN cry aloud to show God’s people their sins. May God have mercy on your soul for attributing His very words to me, a mere human.

¹⁰His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

¹¹Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

¹²Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

The problem won't be solved by leaving one proverbial sinking ship for another. The SDA organization will apostatize. All Christianity does. Its in Revelation 13. It just seems you're trying to hurry prophecy along, when you need to stop breaking up God's remnant and work to propagate the message to a dying world.

Ron responds: Your reasoning is not very astute Karl Wagner, for the following observations:

· Did Jesus “gather out” another proverbial “sinking ship” as the first act of His ministry in Desire of Ages, 232?

· Did all the true reformers of all ages (every succeeding generation, DA 232) merely leave one proverbial sinking ship for another?

· Did Adventists leave many proverbial “sinking ships” in 1844, for another?

· Per Isaiah 4:1-4, I don’t believe in another formal organization. I believe all formally organized churches will be doing their own thing at the end-time. They are symbolized as 7 women, seven being God’s all inclusive number.

· I believe Isaiah 37:31, 32 applies to the end-time and that a faithful remnant will and is going forth out of apostate Jersualem as well as out of Babylon.

All Christianity does not apostatize. You are dead wrong in making that assertion. Revelation 14:1-4 speaks of a remnant that are blameless and they are not defiled with women—apostate churches. So you are dead wrong Karl Wagner, and that is serious when you are a bible teacher and you preach in your church.

I surely wouldn't want to stand before God and say that I left those bad SDAs, but went and sat in a corner doing nothing but trying to call them out of Babylon when I could be trying to reach the unchurched and those who never heard of the three angles message or know the truth about the Sabbath.

Karl

Ron responds: I wouldn’t want to stand before God and say that I became joined to a new movement that had removed Him (1SM 205), just because I was so Laodicean and apostate I did not recognize the apostasy.

I don’t exactly sit in a corner. I operate a Website that warns people around the world and that gets many hits a day from folk in every country of the world. It is Babylon’s stipulation that we should go only to the “unchurched.” I don’t follow Babylon’s (Satan’s) restrictions upon the Everlasting Gospel.

It can be proven that your new movement Synagogue of Satan has agreed with Babylon, in secret meeting, to tone down teaching of the Sabbath, because they would be detrimental to bringing the church into unity. It can be proven that your church cannot teach Sabbath observance when the leaders of your church have instructed Russian parents to send their children to school on the Sabbath. Every SDA who knows of this is corporately responsible for that abomination for which we are to sigh and cry, per the following statements by Scripture and Ellen White, the Holy Spirit witness to the church:

Corporate Responsibility From the New Testament

³¹ Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. ³² Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. ³³ Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? ³⁴ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: ³⁵ That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. ³⁶ Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. ³⁷ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! ³⁸ Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. ³⁹ For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” Matthew 23:31-39.

"Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered." Luke 11:49-52.

"The plain straight testimony must live in the church, or the curse of God will rest upon His people as surely as it did upon ancient Israel because of their sins. God holds His people, as a body [corporately], responsible for the sins existing in individuals among them." Testimonies, Vol. 3, p. 269.

Corporate responsibility -- "When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity but thou hast delivered thy soul." Ezekiel 3:18-19.

—rwb

The prime abominations of the new movement for which we are to sigh and cry are:

· Returning to the iniquities of our forefathers in forming liaisons with Babylon’s associations, counsels/councils and conspiracies/confederacies. Isaiah 8:9-12. Jeremiah 11:9-15.

· Forming an omega of apostasy new movement that has removed God and changed pillar doctrines of true Adventism.

· Teaching an antichrist view on the Godhead.

· Teaching an antichrist view on justification; that justification is the sum and substance of religion and is obtainable without sanctification accruing at the same time, which is really the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans that God especially hates.

· Teaching an antichrist view on the human nature of Christ—that He was not like Adam before or after the fall.

· Teaching that Christ had an advantage over us when He came in our likeness and was made to be sin for us and took all our sins upon Himself and experienced every temptation we experience WHEN THOSE SINS WERE LAID UPON HIM--by astral projection into the future. Which of us was made to be sin? Which of us took all the sins of the world upon him/herself?

· Teaching the antichrist view that Christ’s humanity did not come in our full human nature as well as divinity, inferring that He had an advantage so we cannot overcome exactly as He did.

· Doing after the manner of the world.

· Flat out lying about conspiratorial confederation with Babylon.

And we are told that we do not know the worst abominations that the church is committing that offend God the most.

“The abominations for which the faithful ones were sighing and crying were all that could be discerned by finite eyes, but by far the worst sins, those which provoked the jealousy of the pure and holy God, were unrevealed. The great Searcher of hearts knoweth every sin committed in secret by the workers of iniquity. These persons come to feel secure in their deceptions and, because of His long-suffering, say that the Lord seeth not, and then act as though He had forsaken the earth. But He will detect their hypocrisy and will open before others those sins which they were so careful to hide.” {5T 211.3}

We should sigh and cry for the worst sins of the church that are not even revealed to us.

The leaven of godliness has not entirely lost its power. At the time when the danger and depression of the church are greatest, the little company who are standing in the light will be sighing and crying for the abominations that are done in the land. But more especially will their prayers arise in behalf of the church because its members are doing after the manner of the world. {5T 209.3}

"Thorns sprung up.--The thorns made it impossible for the wheat to mature (see Luke 8:14). In the same way secular interests prevent the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22, 23) from reaching maturity. Religion is relegated to the subordinate position of being only one interest among many. For lack of cultivation it withers and eventually dies. That which the thorny-ground hearers lack is a moral transformation. To them, justification is the sum and substance of religion, and they fail to realize that the Christian life consists essentially in the process known as sanctification--the process by which evil traits and tendencies are replaced by the perfect life-pattern of Jesus Christ." Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 5, 405.

The all looming question is: Will God use a backslidden, apostate church that refuses to comply with His conditions, to give the Loud Cry to the world when He says through His prophet Ellen White that not one thread of human devising will be used in the giving of the final message?

"Jesus sends HIS PEOPLE a message of warning to prepare them for his coming. To the prophet John was made known the closing work in the great plan of man's redemption. He beheld an angel flying 'in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his Judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters [Rev. 14:6, 7.].

The angel represented in prophecy as delivering this message, symbolizes a class of faithful men, who, obedient to the promptings of God's Spirit and the teachings of his word, proclaim this warning to the inhabitants of earth. This message was not to be committed to the religious leaders of the people. They had failed to preserve their connection with God, and had REFUSED THE LIGHT FROM HEAVEN therefore they WERE NOT of the number described by the apostle Paul: 'But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day we are not of the night nor of darkness' [1 Thess. 5:4, 5].

The watchmen upon the walls of Zion should be the first to catch the tidings of the Saviour's advent, the first to lift their voices to proclaim him near, the first to warn the people to prepare for his coming. But they were at ease, dreaming of peace and safety, while the people were asleep in their sins. Jesus saw HIS CHURCH, like the barren fig-tree, covered with pretentious leaves, yet destitute of precious fruit. There was a boastful observance of the forms of religion, while the spirit of true humility, penitence and faith--which alone could render the service acceptable to God--was lacking. Instead of the graces of the Spirit, there were manifested pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, oppression. A BACKSLIDING CHURCH closed their eyes to the signs of the times. God did nor forsake them, or suffer his faithfulness to fail but they departed from him, and SEPARATED THEMSELVES from his love. As they REFUSED TO COMPLY WITH THE CONDITIONS, his promises were NOT FULFILLED to them." E.G. White, The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4, pp. 199-200 [The 1884 edition of The Great Controversy, 199, 200].

The church leaders let the above book go out of print until an SDA doctor began to publish it. The church sued the doctor, but he won and the church began to publish the book again. Three guesses why the church discontinued the copyright on the book and let it go out of publication?! Could the above statement have anything to do with it? I’ll let you decide that!