Most mainline Christians use the following verses to
substantiate their belief that we go to heaven at death and come with Christ
at His second coming. The effort of this document is to rightly interpret
these Scriptures.
1Th
3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts
unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Jude
1:14-15 "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His
saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among
them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way,
and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against
Him."
I received this query from a friend:
Ron,
“I'm speaking with this person on the Bible
Challenge group and he believes that when someone dies they immediately are
in the presence of the Lord. I have answered most of his challenges but this
one has me stuck. Can you help me?
Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied
about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten
thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who
are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed
in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have
spoken against Him." (Jude 1:14-15)
He is claiming that since this is describing
the Second Coming the Saints are those who have died and are already in
heaven and they are returning with Christ at the Second Coming thus proving
that our teaching on the state of the dead is false.
I'm at a loss on how to respond.”
Ron responds:
Here are the irrefutable answers you
need. Without going into the Investigative Judgment with non-SDA’s, this is
the best way to prove that the dead don’t go to heaven at their death.
"Behold, the Lord comes with ten
thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who
are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed
in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have
spoken against Him." (Jude 1:14-15)
The following points must be considered:
·
There is no judgment
pronounced upon ALL until after the millennium. So how could some be judged
as saints (except the angels) before His second coming? The righteous are
judged before the wicked, for the righteous go to heaven at Christ’s coming.
1Ti 5:24 Some men's
sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some [men] they
follow after.
·
There is no resurrection until before the end-time just before
Christ comes. We are told that there will be a resurrection of both the just
and the unjust and when they occur. The resurrection of the just occurs
before the millennium and the resurrection of the unjust occurs after the
millennium.
·
Why is there a resurection of the dead BOTH OF THE JUST AND
THE UNJUST, if the JUST go to heaven at death?
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that
there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
·
The resurrection of the just is at the second coming. Why a
resurrection of the just if they went to heaven at death and come with Him?
It cannot be both ways!
·
If the holy go to heaven at death, why is he that
is holy has part in the first resurrection?
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that
hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests
of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
·
Eternal Judgment of the wicked dead is not pronounced until
the resurrection of the dead, though the wicked are judged during the
millennium.
Hbr 6:2 Of the
doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of
resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
·
According to John the Revelator, only the souls of the just are
raised at the first resurrection and the rest of the dead lived not until the
thousand years are finished. Why would the souls of the just have to be
raised at the second coming if they had gone to heave upon their death when
they would not worship the beast?
Rev 20:4 And
I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his
image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their
hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the
thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
·
How can the ungodly be convicted of their wicked deeds if they
are not raised until after the millennium in the second resurrection?
·
How can judgment on ALL take place at the second coming
of Christ if the rest of the dead live not again until the millennium is
finished and the saints are on thrones judging the wicked during the
millennium?
1Ti 5:24 Some men's
sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some [men] they
follow after.
Obviously, the righteous are judged before going to heaven and
the judgment of the wicked follows after—after the millennium.
1Pe 4:17 For the time
[is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it]
first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel
of God?
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until
the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
·
AGAIN FOR EMPHASIS: How can Christ convict the ungodly if they
are not raised until the thousand years are finished? So Jude 1:14, 15 must
apply to the third coming after the millennium!
·
Why would those who have done good need to be resurrected if they
had gone to heaven at death? Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they
that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that
have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
·
Why would Martha conclude that Lazarus would rise in the
resurrection in the last day if he went to heave at his death?
John 11:24: Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall
rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jude 1:14-15 is also relative to the
following other verses of Scripture.
Dan
7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before
him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten
thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were
opened.
Mat 25:31 When the Son
of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he
sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one
from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the
left.
Mat 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world:
2Th 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume
with the spirit of his mouth, and
shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th
2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after
the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th
2:10 And with all deceivableness of
unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of
the truth, that they might be saved.
The wicked dead are destroyed by the brightness
of Christ’s coming. They are resurrected at the end of the millennium. The
living saints with the dead resurrected saints rise to be with Christ in the
air and thus they are represented as coming with him. That explains Jude 14,
15 and 1 Thes. 4:14, below. This is the only way to interpret all the
scriptures presented SO THAT ONE DOES NOT MAKE THE BIBLE AND GOD CONTRADICT.
1Th
4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also
which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not
prevent them which are asleep.
If the saints are in heaven, why are they
represented as being asleep—dead?
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself
shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and
with the trump of God: and the DEAD IN CHRIST shall rise first:
Why would the DEAD IN CHRIST rise
first in the resurrection if they were alive in heaven?
1Th
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall
we ever be with the Lord.
So the dead in Christ are raised
(resurrected) first, and then they, with the living righteous, are caught up
together to meet the Lord. It is thus that He is represented as COMING WITH
HIS SAINTS. But Jude 14, 15 must still refer primarily to AFTER THE
MILLENNIUM when the wicked dead are raised! They ARE NOT raised at Christ's
second coming, thus Jude 14, 15 cannot apply to that coming and the wicked
cannot be CONVICTED OF THEIR UNGODLY DEEDS until they are raised!
1Th
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Ron
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