biblesky.jpg

 

The State of the  Dead

The Resurrection

and

The Judgment

Click to go to our Home Page


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most mainline Christians use the following verses to substantiate their belief that we go to heaven at death and come with Christ at His second coming. The effort of this document is to rightly interpret these Scriptures.

 

1Th 3:13   To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 

 

Jude 1:14-15 "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

 

I received this query from a friend:

 

Ron,

 

“I'm speaking with this person on the Bible Challenge group and he believes that when someone dies they immediately are in the presence of the Lord. I have answered most of his challenges but this one has me stuck. Can you help me?

 

Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." (Jude 1:14-15)

 

He is claiming that since this is describing the Second Coming the Saints are those who have died and are already in heaven and they are returning with Christ at the Second Coming thus proving that our teaching on the state of the dead is false.

 

I'm at a loss on how to respond.”

 

 

Ron responds:

 

Here are the irrefutable answers you need. Without going into the Investigative Judgment with non-SDA’s, this is the best way to prove that the dead don’t go to heaven at their death.

 

"Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." (Jude 1:14-15)

 

The following points must be considered:

·         There is no judgment pronounced upon ALL until after the millennium. So how could some be judged as saints (except the angels) before His second coming? The righteous are judged before the wicked, for the righteous go to heaven at Christ’s coming.

1Ti 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some [men] they follow after.

·        There is no resurrection until before the end-time just before Christ comes. We are told that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust and when they occur. The resurrection of the just occurs before the millennium and the resurrection of the unjust occurs after the millennium.

·        Why is there a resurection of the dead BOTH OF THE JUST AND THE UNJUST, if the JUST go to heaven at death?

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. 

·        The resurrection of the just is at the second coming. Why a resurrection of the just if they went to heaven at death and come with Him? It cannot be both ways!

·         If the holy go to heaven at death, why is he that is holy has part in the first resurrection?

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 

·        Eternal Judgment of the wicked dead is not pronounced until the resurrection of the dead, though the wicked are judged during the millennium.

Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

·        According to John the Revelator, only the souls of the just are raised at the first resurrection and the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years are finished. Why would the souls of the just have to be raised at the second coming if they had gone to heave upon their death when they would not worship the beast?

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection

·        How can the ungodly be convicted of their wicked deeds if they are not raised until after the millennium in the second resurrection?

·        How can judgment on ALL take place at the second coming of Christ if the rest of the dead live not again until the millennium is finished and the saints are on thrones judging the wicked during the millennium?

1Ti 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some [men] they follow after.

Obviously, the righteous are judged before going to heaven and the judgment of the wicked follows after—after the millennium.

1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. 

·         AGAIN FOR EMPHASIS: How can Christ convict the ungodly if they are not raised until the thousand years are finished? So Jude 1:14, 15 must apply to the third coming after the millennium!

·        Why would those who have done good need to be resurrected if they had gone to heaven at death? Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

·        Why would Martha conclude that Lazarus would rise in the resurrection in the last day if he went to heave at his death?

John 11:24: Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

Jude 1:14-15 is also relative to the following other verses of Scripture.

 

Dan 7:10   A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 


Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 


Mat 25:32   And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: 


Mat 25:33   And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 


Mat 25:34   Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 

 

2Th 2:8   And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 

 

 2Th 2:9   [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 

 

 

 2Th 2:10   And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 

 

The wicked dead are destroyed by the brightness of Christ’s coming. They are resurrected at the end of the millennium. The living saints with the dead resurrected saints rise to be with Christ in the air and thus they are represented as coming with him. That explains Jude 14, 15 and 1 Thes. 4:14, below. This is the only way to interpret all the scriptures presented SO THAT ONE DOES NOT MAKE THE BIBLE AND GOD CONTRADICT.

 

1Th 4:14   For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 

 

1Th 4:15   For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

If the saints are in heaven, why are they represented as being asleep—dead?

 

1Th 4:16   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD IN CHRIST shall rise first

 

Why would the DEAD IN CHRIST rise first in the resurrection if they were alive in heaven? 

 

1Th 4:17   Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

 

So the dead in Christ are raised (resurrected) first, and then they, with the living righteous, are caught up together to meet the Lord. It is thus that He is represented as COMING WITH HIS SAINTS.  But Jude 14, 15 must still refer primarily to AFTER THE MILLENNIUM when the wicked dead are raised! They ARE NOT raised at Christ's second coming, thus Jude 14, 15 cannot apply to that coming and the wicked cannot be CONVICTED OF THEIR UNGODLY DEEDS until they are raised!

 

1Th 4:18   Wherefore comfort one another with these words

 

Ron