Sighing and Crying Pains

The following manuscript depicts some of the differences in response to the apostasy of the SDA church. It presents detailed arguments on both sides of the separation question as to what constitutes a correct response to the Omega of Apostasy.

Dear Bob De La Torre,

I have added comments to both Paul's and Temcat's observations. My comments are in bold and in parenthesis below the comments of Paul and Temcat, and are preceded by Ron, designating my (Ron Beaulieu's) comments:

Response From Paul to Temcat:

As you requested, I read your email all the way thru. Please extend the same courtesy. I promise I won't be "vehement", but I must be direct. My comments are inserted below...

Paul Rahoi.

Temcat wrote:
THE MISSING LINK- A WARNING ISSUE-
A Temcat study;
(Temcat) My aim in writing this article is not to add fuel to already out of control fires, but rather to attempt to do as Paul said- "Reason together with you out of the scriptures".
I have seen many, voluminous articles written by brethren attempting to prove that the SDA structure is now Babylon or a part of Babylon. They all read pretty much the same, differing only in amounts of ire and vehemence.

(Paul) Not true-- there are at least 2 extremely different views and understandings amongst those that believe the GCSDA has become part of Babylon. They 'seem' the same to you because of your perspective, which shall be analyzed shortly.

(Ron) We should not make charges of "ire and vehemence," without substantiating what we construe as comprising such. Such statements do wittingly or unwittingly add fuel to misunderstanding and can make things appear even worse than they really are.

(Temcat) Before I begin, I wish to establish one point clearly, it is not the intention of this writer to deny the terrible condition of things in the 'official church', nor to argue whether the 'church is in apostasy' or there is 'apostasy in the church'. Hair splitting won't help us now. Neither is it my intention to encourage anyone to attend any church, official, or home group, that attempts to control the conscience of its members or force compliance with man made creeds or manuals, or to sit in pews and listen week after week to errors taught and forced home to the mind by hypnotic suggestion; this is spiritual suicide!

(Paul) I would like to propose that the vast majority of SDAs, both in and out of the GCSDA (yourself included) have already been (to a great degree) hypnotized in regard to just about everything associated with the Babylon question. This is because this hypnotism took place BEFORE many independents ever left the Conference church. No? Read on... (Temcat) Also, I must warn those who stay around the structure that I can see clearly that this apostate organization is on its way to becoming a very despotic persecuting power; treacherous and cruel. I am writing this because there is a danger, a grave danger, in the messages being argued in our ranks and this infighting must stop or many souls will be lost!

(Ron) What you propose we stop Temcat, is the very means of what was to cause or incite the shaking. Thus you are proposing that we stop the shaking process that is to shake and sift the wheat from the tares. This is anti-Spirit of Prophecy. Terrible heresies were to come in and cause the shaking. We are to repudiate all such heresies.

(Temcat) I call this message "The Missing Link"; we all know about evolution and their 'missing link', in fact they have hundreds of them, conspicuous by their absence.

(Ron) There is no "missing link" if no erroneous premises are introduced, and I say this after having read this entire paper. I would here inject some of the evidences in addition to the one Paul gave about the church becoming a SISTER to fallen Babylon: To add to Paul's statement by EGW about the prospects that the church could become a SISTER to fallen Babylon, I add the following:

It has been erroneously taught by some SDAs, that Israel was never referred by Scripture to as being any part of Babylon. They maintain that Israel was never branded as being part of Babylon, so they conclude that the SDA church would never be so branded. That simply is not so. The Bible has something to say on this issue:

Isaiah1:20-23: See how the faithful city has become a harlot! She once was full of justice; righteousness used to dwell in her-- but now murderers!

"And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also." Jeremiah 3:8.

So Judah, as well as Israel, played the harlot.

"The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone upon every high mountain and under every green tree, ." and there hath played the harlot Jer. 3:6.

There is Mother harlot, and daughter harlots. A harlot, is a harlot, is a harlot. The mother of harlots is Rome or Babylon, and she has her origin in early Christianity as a professing Christian religion. This relates harlotry with a once early Christian and/or God fearing religion, and of course, Israel, was a God fearing religion and should have adopted Christianity.

This is why Ellen White applied the words "a cage of every unclean and hateful bird" to the church in the event it fell, so who can fault anyone for calling the fallen SDA church Babylon.

"The world must not be introduced into the church, and married to the church, forming a bond of unity. Through this means the church will become indeed corrupt, and as stated in Revelation, 'a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.'" Testimonies to Ministers, p. 265.

"And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." Rev. 18:2.

"Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall..." Ezekiel 13:11.

It is also proper to say that professing Adventism is worse than Babylon because they have had the truth and advanced light.

"God's professed people are selfish and self-caring....They are idolaters, and are worse, in the sight of God, than the heathen, graven-image worshippers who have had no knowledge of a better way." Testimonies, vol. 2, 441-442.

"If the church of God becomes LUKEWARM [LAODICEAN] it does not stand in favor with God any more than do the churches that are represented as having fallen and become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Those who have had opportunities to hear and receive the truth, and who have united with the Seventh-day Adventist church, calling themselves the commandment keeping people of God, and yet possess no more vitality and consecration to God than do the nominal churches, will receive of the plagues of God just as verily as the churches who oppose the law of God." E.G. White, Letter 35, 1898.

Did the church become lukewarm?

"Satan has a large confederacy, his church. Christ calls them the synagogue of Satan because the members are the children of sin. The members of Satan's church have been constantly working to cast off the divine law, and confuse the distinction between good and evil. Satan is working with great power in and through the children of disobedience to exalt treason and apostasy as truth and loyalty." E.G. White, Testimonies to Ministers, 16.

"The day of God is right upon us, and the world has converted the church. Both are in harmony, and are acting upon a short-sited policy" E.G. White, General Conference Bulletin, 1st Quarter, 1900.

And what about the GC specifically? Here is one that refers directly to the General Conference:

"Worldly policy is taking the place of true piety and wisdom that comes from above, and God will remove His prospering hand from the conference. Shall the ark of the covenant be removed from this people? Shall idols be smuggled in? Shall false principles and false precepts be brought into the sanctuary? Shall antichrist be respected? Shall the true doctrines and principles given us of God, which have made us what we are, be ignored?.... This is directly where the enemy, through blinded, unconsecrated men, is leading us." E. G. White, Manuscript 29, 1890.]

(Temcat) So they write huge tomes to try and explain away this obvious > lack of evidence.

(Ron) Some are explaining that there is no lack of evidence and their "tomes" furnish that evidence. There is absolutely no lack of evidence as such is depicted in this paper. There are statements that cover every supposed "lack of evidence" as supposed by Temcat, and I will furnish those statements or "missing links," in every case mentioned.

(Temcat)Just so there is a 'missing link' in all this Babylon talk; there is no clear SOP quote or Bible text that clearly says God's chosen people ever become Babylon or join Babylon.

(Ron) God never gave any "chosen" people any guarantee of "once chosen--always chosen!" Even if there were no statements saying that the church could become part of Babylon, it obviously has become a sister by joining the World Council of Churches as a MEMBER by joining at least eight National Councils of Churches, and by most of its ministers joining the WCC's localized bodies call Ministerial Associations. I called a Phd. official at the Canadian Council of Churches, and asked about the structure of the World Council of Churches. I asked specifically if the various Ministerial Associations of all member churches was a local arm of the WCC, and twice she said "Yes! Yes!"]

(Paul) Q: Was there a clear statement in the Bible that said: "The church AT ROME will someday become Mother Babylon?" Is that EXPLICITLY stated anywhere in the Bible? No. Should the faithful Christians in the early centuries have WAITED around until God saw fit to send the a prophet to give them EXPLICIT instructions that it was nowtime to separate? No. Were they justified in using their minds to make an APPLICATION of scriptures which gave DESCRIPTIONS of an apostate church? Yes. Was there any EXPLICIT counsel in the Bible which told them to separate when this apostasy manifest itself? No. Was there any prophet? No. Sound familiar? Was the early Christian church once "God's people?" Yes. Well, did "God's chosen people ever become Babylon or join Babylon?" Yes, the majority, including the power structure they were attached to did indeed become Babylon (Mother). Again, was there any CLEAR QUOTE from the Bible which said so. No, there are NO EXPLICIT STATEMENTS. Now, what about the Protestants? Any EXPLICIT statements about them becoming daughters? Any EXPLICIT statement which says, "The Baptist Church will apostasy and become a fallen sister to Babylon???" No. Did the early Christians and the Protestants of the 1800's have Scriptural writings. Yes, they sure did. Now suppose some argued as you are now arguing, and said, "Well, we have no EXPLICIT texts, and we have no LIVING PROPHET, so the safe thing to do is just WAIT." Where would we be now my sister? Where ARE we now, my sister???

Now, here is one of many links you have missed. Q: Is there statement after statement after statement in the SOP which clearly reveals that the Jewish nation were ONCE "God's chosen people"? Yes. Are there numerous statements that indicate the OTHERS were chosen, and the once "chosen people" CEASED to be chosen any longer? Yes. Does the SOP indicate that the GCSDA (and SDA's composing it) have been CHOSEN by God to give the last message to the world? Yes. And is there STATEMENT after STATEMENT which indicates that the GCSDA (and SDA's composing it) can CEASE to be God's chosen people. YES! So your whole question about "God's chosen people ever becoming Babylon or joining Babylon" is based on the PREMISE that the GCSDA (and SDA's composing it) are UNCONDITIONALLY "God's people". After pondering what happened to the Jewish nation, early Christian church (which became the papacy) and the Protestant churches (who were all once God's CHOSEN PEOPLE, but no longer are), I can only conclude that the vast majority of Adventists have indeed been hypnotized, just as Eve was in the garden by listening to deceptivereasoning.

Again, your question reveals the fact that you haven't REALLY thought it thru. My dear sister, what do you suppose would have happened in the 1800's if EGW had wrote: "God's chosen people will some day become a sister to fallen Babylon!" There would be ABSOLUTE CHAOS in Adventism!!! There would be thousands of disgruntled "Stanton's" who would use such quotes to "prove" that it had become part of Babylon, for even the most trivial offences. God is not FOOLISH enough to give "self destruct" messages like that. What he did was lay down some symbolic language that THOSE WHO WERE SPIRITUAL could understand and 'rightly divide'. In 1844, the Protestants were identified as 'daughters' BECAUSE they met the conditions, NOT BECAUSE there was any explicitstatements; NOT BECAUSE there was a live prophet! It was AFTER they had ALREADY figured out who the daughters werethat God THEN sent them a live prophet to CONFIRM what theyalready knew! Think that one through carefully.

And again, there are no statements in the SOP which indicate that the GCSDA would NOT join the Babylon family. There ARE very explicit warnings which unmistakably reveal that it was indeed POSSIBLE. Shall we just ignore (or "make of none effect") all of these warnings and danger messages? Should the current situation in Adventism call for more earnest study of this issue? (Temcat) I urge you here not to give way and just delete this without hearing me through; I promise that I have something to bring out a bit different than you might expect. Every time I read the typical quotes used by the 'Babylon' folk, I see the same pattern, that 'missing link', so obvious in its absence and no matter how voluminus the article or book is, the link is still missing. First, I wish to ask, do you not believe that God has all knowledge? Do you not think that He knew what was going to happen?

(Ron) Respectfully, I must say Temcat, that you must have been reading with blinders on.]

(Paul) Again, the missing link is in your reasoning. Of course God knows what is going to happen. But did he say to the Jewish nation: "Listen, you are DOOMED to be rejected someday and fall???" Did he say to the Early Christians, "Listen, you are PREDESTINED to become a corrupt apostate church???" Did he raise up the Protestants and say, "Listen, someday soon you MUST be rejected and replaced???" And yet you want a statement like this in regard to the GCSDA? Hypnotism. God lays down promises and threatenings based on CONDITIONS. This applies to individuals; This applies to churches; This applies to nations. If the Baptist Church decided to accept the SOP, and all the truths that go with these writings, IT WOULD CEASE TO BE A SISTER TO FALLEN BABYLON BECAUSE THE CONDITIONS WHICH MAKE IT SUCH WOULD CEASE TO EXIST. God HAS told us what will happen, but who fills the various roles is entirely up to CHOICE. Apparently, many believe the GCSDA is exclusive of this principle, but it is a very old lie.

(Temcat) The Bible is clear that all the events of the last days are regimented by God, to sift and judge the peopleand make an end to the reign of sin. I hear folks say, "Well, Sister White didn't know all things, she didn't know this would happen". Is the Spirit of Prophecy the product of a human mind? NO WAY! In order to say some of the things being said in support of the Babylon theory, one has to cast serious doubts on the foreknowledge of God and the inspiration of the Spirit of Prophecy! I must stand strong in support of both.

(Ron) Temcat, you are not standing strong in support of both, when you deny that Ellen White clearly stated that the church could become the cage of every unclean and hateful bird, (terminology applied to Babylon (Rev 18:2), and a sister to fallen Babylon. If you were unaware of these statements that is one thing, but if you were not, your are contradicting the Word, the Spirit of Prophecy and yourself.

(Paul) No, it casts serious doubts on your misinterpretation of her writings, and the misinterpretation of prominent men in historic Adventism, a touchy subject indeed. (Temcat) So I submit to you that when we read quote after quote warning us what would come into the church, and yet we see no clear statement, "When this happens, then the church is Babylon and you must call everyone out and re-organize," that the 'missing link' is glaring in it's absence, There is no such text in the Bible either, but rather warnings to wait and see God work out His plan.

(Ron) Temcat, when I give you the following Bible statements that call us out of any part of Babylon, I sincerely hope you will apologize to Paul and all who have been misled by being exposed to your erroneous personal opinion. Here are the texts: Isaiah 8:9-20; Rev. 18:2; Rev. 14:6-18, in which case verse 18 mentions the LOUD CRY, and Ellen White said that LOUD CRY has been going on since 1888. Then there is Jeremiah 11:15, where "my beloved" refers to the bride of Christ. Then there is: 2 Cor. 6:17; [Old Testament: Deut. 26:18; Ps. 135:4]; Tit. 2:14; 1 Peter 2:9; Luke 6:22; Heb 7:26.]

(Paul) My sister, what kind of logic is this? If the GCSDA switched to Sunday keeping, would you say, "Well, she never said that if it kept Sunday it would become a fallen sister, so we better just wait and see God work out His plan". If they were having weekly orgies in the pulpit... "Well, she never said that if they have orgies in the pulpit..." Can you see the liscense you've given for GROSS APOSTASY in ANY/EVERY form? Just wait? By stubbornly demanding your 'missing link', you have virtually said that the GCSDA can do ANYTHING, and it won't become a fallen sister. Is this the message God would have you to give? Is this truth?

(Temcat) The other argument that I hear is, "Well, God expects us to figure things out for ourselves." Is this true in regard to Prophecy? No, to be accurate all prophecy must be based on inspiration only; the minute any human conjecture comes in, it is not an accurate interpretation.

(Ron) Temcat, based even on the evidence thus far, are your opinions on this issue "based on inspiration only, without human conjecture? Is your view an accurate interpretation?]

(Paul) You seem to be stuck in time. You look at things from the perspective of today, where we have plain statements in the SOP that the Papacy and Protestants compose Babylon, so you say: "See, we have explicit statements about THEM, but no explicit statements about the GCSDA". My sister, what you seem to miss is that the early Christians were in the EXACT SAME BOAT. They knew the Jewish nation had been rejected, but they had to apply prophecy and principles to determine that ROME was rejected (and this was no 'conjecture'). The Adventists in 1844 were in the EXACT SAME BOAT. They knew the Papacy had been rejected, but they had to apply prophecy and principles to determine that the PROTESTANTS were rejected (and this was not 'conjecture'). Now, can you take it one step farther? Or are you still locked in your paradigm?

(Temcat) We have tons of this type of half and half Bible and human conjecture around us these days. That is what the Bible means when it says, "Your wine is mixed with water".

(Ron) Temcat, have Paul and I proven that thus far "Your wine is mixed with water; that your renderings have been "half and half Bible and human conjecture? Yes sister, and it is such as you who are adding faulty fuel to the fire.

(Paul) Correct, so lets just give up, right? There is 'conjecture' on just about EVERY subject.

(Ron) Correction brother, your views HAVE NOT been based on conjecture. Let no man despise your conclusions. So far, Temcats views are based on the premise of erroneous conjectures.

(Temcat) God says we are to live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, not partly His words and then go on from there.

(Paul) Why is it that SDA's want to IGNORE all the threatenings in the SOP about what COULD INDEED happen to the GCSDA? Why are these words IGNORED? Why are the promises cherished, but the conditions upon which those promises are based-- IGNORED??? Strange infatuation. Hypnotism.

(Ron) Paul, there is another reason and it has to do with the social creatures that we are. Many have made life-long friends in the church and it is one big family of closely knit fabric socially. Many have a clear picture of what might happen if they rock the boat made out of this social fabric. They might have to forsake job, father, mother, sister, brother, or even spouse for the cause of God: Notice:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or WIFE--HUSBAND, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." Matthew 19:29.

The converse is true of those who will not make these sacrifices if necessary. They will not inherit eternal life, Matt. 10:37, as follows:

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me, And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:37, 38.

And what about Pastors who would have to sacrifice a life's vocation and a secure income to become a reformer? Can you just feel the tension in these matters? These are some additional reasons why Adventists seem to go deaf, dumb and blind when it comes to separation. But that wilful deafness, dumbness and blindness will not afford them into the Kingdom of Heaven.

(Temcat) I want to walk you quickly through history and show you a very ominous pattern in connection with God's true people when they turn to apostasy, it is a very scary pattern, worse than 'becoming Babylon.' Look for a moment at Babylon, she is popular, the kings of the earth seek her out, and bring gifts to her and commit whoredom with her. That is a clear pattern in the Bible. Paganism is like this and all her half-breed children are like that also. They are popular! But when God's chosen forsake Him and try to be like Babylon, there is a difference that is amazing! Look at this text: Eze 16:33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom. 34 And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.
God's chosen are never popular with the world, even when they are totally apostatized. They chase the world to commit whoredom, the world never chases them; in fact notice in the same chapter: 27 Behold, therefore I have stretched out my hand over thee, and have diminished thine ordinary food, and delivered thee unto the will of them that hate thee, the daughters of the Philistines, which are ashamed of thy lewd way. The world hates God's chosen even more when they apostatize!!

(Ron)Ellen White equates the world with Babylon, when she says that if the church is married to the world, it will become the cage of every unclean and hateful bird, which is language used specifically in application to Babylon, Rev. 18:2! So the world, Babylon, and the Synagogue of Satan are all one and the same, because Satan was given temporary dominion over this world! Temcat, what the world and Satan hate about God's chosen "harlots" is that they are teasers. They will not go all the way. They try to say they are the pure and chosen saints, the 144,000, while they tease away by joining in Babylon's activities, without giving up thier separate "church." Satan hates this. Professing New Movement, apostate SDA's claim to be a holy, separate people, the bride, the elect, while they harlot with the enemy. This is why they are hated. They try to be a different harlot, like some actual harlots who say they are not whores, they just sleep around. They try to be independent operators withou joining the local brothel. Harlot whores have a special disdain for other harlots who do not regard themselves as harlot whores. This is why the world hates imposter, professing SDA's who do not practice what they preach.

(Paul)The Papacy and Protestants were ONCE GOD's CHOSEN. The world hates them??? No, they are spiritually fornicating together.

(Temcat) We can see this in the situation today, just take a good look: the leadership and even the membership fawn on officials, they seek to intrude themselves in the groups of the world, they thrust in and offer bribes so they can sit down with Babylon and they commit whoredom with her. But dear readers, no matter how much they do this, they are never accepted and desired by Babylon though she may tolerate them a bit if they bribe her good enough! She can't join Babylon or become Babylon even though she may bust herself trying!

(Ron) Your conclusion above does despite to the Spirit of Prophecy you claim to be faithful to. Ellen White specifically says that the church could become married to the world, and the world is Babylon, and the Synagogue of Satan. The SDA church became married to the world in the early 1930's when it voted to accept that the world's accreditation standards would be taught in its educational facilities. Now the church is forced to teach the subjects of the world. Was Satan crafty in marrying the church to the world? You bet! And what better way than to marry the youth student population of the church to the world?! What ensued in the next genration? I will tell you what ensued--The Omega of Deadly heresy and apostasy of the church--that is what ensued!

(Paul) Impossible? This is basically what you are saying, is it not? But the SOP would indicate otherwise:

"We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon..." "...will become indeed corrupt, and as stated in Rev, 'a cage...'"

(Temcat) She is a despised people.

(Ron) Temcat, the reason she is a despised people is because she is a whore who thinks herself better than all the other whores. Obviously, even whores would hate such a whore. Were I a whore and other whores said they were better than me because they belonged to a different brothel, when the same owner owned both brothels, I would not take kingly to such fellow "self-righteous" whores. And that is precisely the case with professing New Movement Seventh-day Adventists.

(Temcat) Let's just take a quick run through history and see the pattern of apostasy of God's chosen and what actually always happens. Apostate Israel in the time of Ahab: They got as bad as you could possibly get. They killed off the true prophets; if God hadn't protected the remnant,> Jezebel would have wiped them out! Remember, she was Queen of ISRAEL! Did they join Assyria? No. Did they become Assyria? No.

(Ron) Did a host of the Jews join Egyptian idolatry when enslaved in Egypt? What about the golden calf worship even after being rescued from Egypt! What about the ten tribes of Israel who were absorbed into the nations they went to? To the point that they are still considered "lost." Only Judah, Benjamin and some of Levi returned from captivity to Babylon, to rebuild the temple.

(Temcat) Was a 'Come out of Israel' message preached? No.

(Ron) Temcat, Jeremiah 11:15 proves you wrong. Moses' separation of the repenters from the Golden calf incident proves your wrong. Moses' separation of the Tabernacle from the camp where Korah, Nathan and Abiram resided, proves you wrong. The following quote from the Spirit of Prophecy proves you wrong:

"The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes; yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding tht this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.

Jesus' gathering out of those who would take the gospel to the world, 43 years before Jerusalem was destroyed, Desire of Ages, 232, proves you wrong. Clearly, sister, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You are flying by the seat of your pants, and they do not carry you very high in perspective of all the truth.

(Temcat) But a come back to the Lord's message was preached and there was a show down in God's own time. You did not see God say to Elijah, "OK, Elijah, gather up the 7,000, and make a new organization."

(Ron) Was Luther Elijah? Were the reformers of every succeeding generation since Christ, Desire of Ages, 232, Elijah? God has his lines in the sand, and Jeremiah 11:9-15 draws the line that designates when we are not even to pray for a people (verse 14). Thus, those who refused the worship place of the recreant priests.

Then there is Word to the Little Flock, p. 14, Ellen Whites first vision, where she says that if one (individually or corporately implied) takes his/her eyes off the Midnigh Cry Lighted Path, which gave power to the first and second angel's messages, he/she or the church would fall off the path and it would be IMPOSSIBLE to get back on again. The church crossed that line when it joined Babylon in association, council and confederacy, Isaiah 8:9-20, and it is NOW IMPOSSIBLE TO RECLAIM THE CORPORATE CHURCH, if you accept this statement by Ellen White. Individuals who have not known of such apostasy, may be reclaimed, but all who have knowingly and willingly stayed with the church or who continue to stay with the church after learning this fact, are wilfully taking their eyes off the Midnight Cry Lighted Path also, and are thus committing UNPARDONABLE SIN, because it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to get on the path again. This is an example of just how serious this SEPARATION ISSUE becomes. I cannot overstress the seriousness of this most startling message fact. Playing church days are over Temcat! God is forcing the issues, and there is no more sitting on the fence. True Reformers are forcing folk off the fence, and that is God's purpose.

(Temcat) But I tell you, the 7,000 and Elijah had to be protected by God or Jezebel would have had them killed. They reformed a bit for a while then went into apostasy again.

(Ron) Ellen White says that all reform by the church will go from bad to worse, (1 Review and Herald, p. 9, col. 3) and that is why the church is bringing every uncouth thing into its camp meetings "just before the close of probation." (2 SM, p. 36). That is a little late for true reform].

(Temcat) What happened? Did they join Assyria? No. Did they become Assyria? No. Was a 'Come out of Israel' message preached? No.

(Ron) If we believe Ellen White in Acts of the Apostles, pp. 11, 12, God has had a faithful people in every generation, and Jeremiah 11:15, and the recreant priest quote (quoted herein) are examples of early separation from apostasy, as did Abraham etc.

(Temcat)Here's what happened: Eze 23:5 And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,Eze 23:9 Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, upon whom she doted. 10 These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her. Apostate Israel, the ten tribes, were destroyed by the ones she went after!

(Ron) Obviously, all Israel and Judah were never destroyed as a result of its early apostasy and resulting captivities, not even in AD 70. A faithful remnant was always separated and saved, eg. Isaiah 37:31, 32, and Jeremiah 11:15.

(Temcat)By her 'lovers' whom she chased and bribed and who hated her for her perfidy. Now come with me to the time of Jeremiah, apostate Judah, cruel and persecuting the true and faithful: As bad as you can get. (See Ezekiel 8) Here again you see a pattern, the apostatized of God's people chase after the heathen, they bribe them, and try to join them, but are not accepted but rather despised. Jer 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Hos. 2:7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.

Here we see a pattern also that God invites repentance and those who repent are accepted into relationship with God, but those who don't are again destroyed by the very 'lovers' they sought to join and be like.

(Ron) It is unwitting denial of the terrible condition of things to imply that the only response to those conditions is a call for repentance. By this theory premise, we should return to Rome and only call for her repentance. We should just wait until she is destroyed!

(Temcat) Did they join Babylon? No. Did they become Babylon? No. Was a 'Come out of Israel' message preached? No. A repent message was preached. And again she was destroyed by the ones she 'ran after'.

(Ron) As Jeremiah 11:15, Ezekiel 5:1-4, and Isaiah 37:31, 23 depict, God's beloved remnant were always warned and somehow spared. In Ezekiel 5:3, the small number taken in his skirts refers to a small remnant who escaped way back in Ezekiel's day. Refer to the SDA Bible Commentary for the date of this era.

(Temcat) La 1:2 She weepeth sore in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with her, they are become her enemies. Hos. 2:10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand. In the final destruction of Jerusalem: here we see a similar pattern but worse, because as God tells us in the story of Aholah and Aholibah, each time is WORSE- (What I ask is what is this LAST time going to be like!) Apostate Israel was more lewd, more proud, more cruel and even slew God's Son, their Messiah! Did they join Rome? No. Did they become Rome? No. Was a 'Come out of Israel' message preached?

(Ron) Temcat, you are most wrong. Desire of Ages, 232, says that Jesus gathered out those who would take the gospel to the world. The Great Controversy, chapter 1, says that true prophets of God warned the people who accepted them as true prophets, as to when to escape. All who received their warning as from God, did escape. The Great Controversy, p. 25, (1911 edition) says that that event was a prefigure. A prefigure is a TYPE. So what happened in Jerusalem, circa A.D. 27-70, was a mini TYPE of what will occur in the ANTITYPICAL FULFILLMENT of another manifestation of Ezekiel 9. All who did not heed the message of God's true prophets might as well have joined Rome, and were part of Satan's Synagogue Brothel of Babylon, and there is only one brothel friend; only one Synagogue of Satan. To not join Rome is little consolation while joining the Synagogue of Satan which is the real HOME and INTELLIGENCE HEADQUARTERS OF SATAN. All of Satan's Confederacy is part of Babylon, so whether or not they joined ROME is a moot point.

(Temcat) No, but those who heeded the message of the prophets to 'Repent' and return to God, accepted Jesus and finally walked away from her, after trying in every way to get her to see. These 'remnant' were spiritual Israel the unspiritual Israel was destroyed by Rome whose favor they had courted.

(Ron) But the rest of the story is depicted in my last statement preceding yours Temcat (ABOVE).]

(Paul) You miss the OBVIOUS. There was no call to 'Come out of Israel' because they CEASED TO BE ISRAEL. They were not UNCONDITIONALLY 'Israel'. You said yourself, "they walked away from her". What? Does "come out" sound to harsh? Its the same thing. The ONCE FAVORED nation was rejected and replaced BEFORE it was destroyed. Think it through. God made a CONDITIONAL promiseto Abraham that thru his seed the Messiah should come. Did Abraham meet the CONDITIONS? Yes. Was God obligated to fulfill His promise thru PHYSICAL Israel? Yes. Did He fulfill His promise? Yes. Now listen. Has God made ANY conditional promise to any person/group in which He has declared that He must work thru any particular group until some event takes place? Has He made ANY such promise since physical Israel passed away? No. NO. Is He obligated to use the early Christian church (which became the Papacy)? NO! Is He obligated to use the Protestant denominations? NO! Now listen. Is He obligated to use the GCSDA? NO! There is NO PROMISE upon which to base this idea. It is pure PRESUMPTION, and gross presumption at that, considering sacred history. God can "of these stones" raise up true "Seventh-day Adventists". He can take the kingdom of heaven (the oracles of God) and given them to OTHERS- UL 131. Hypnotism.

(Temcat) We see the same thing in the prophecies, which we are told are more for our day than the day they were written. Apostate Spiritual Israel runs after her lovers, she gives gifts to bribe them to commit whoredom with her, but again she is not truly accepted. Can they join Babylon? No. Can they become Babylon? No. They want to and they try to, but they will never be able.

(Ron) Your statement totally contradicts Ellen White. Your statement totally contradicts Scripture. By not obeying God and becoming subject to His kingdom, we default into the kingdom of Satan, the Synagogue of Satan, or Babylon. Babylon is far more in scope than you have conceived or painted it Temcat. Babylon and the Synagogue of Satan are synonymous.

(Paul) What? What? What happened to "free choice?" Babylon is a "condition". If you choose to accept/teach the wine of Babylon, and if you choose to act like Babylon, then the term rightly applies to your condition. "My little children, let no man DECEIVE you, he that doeth righteousness IS righteous, even as He is righteous." 1John 3:7. My sister, let no man DECEIVE you, a church that acts/teaches Babylonianism IS Babylonian, even as other churches are Babylonian. This is a principle, and it does not change.

(Temcat) Instead the ones she runs after despise her and will destroy her without remedy, once God removes the last of His protection from her. That final 'Tempest which sweeps away', that 'Overwhelming Scourge' is coming; but it is on God's timetable not ours.

(Ron)What was God's TIMETABLE in the last destruction of Jerusalem? Did He just let the overflowing throng of Rome engulf and destroy His people without warning them and without a pre "gathering out" of those who would take the gospel to the world, Desire of Ages, 232? Absolutely not, Temcat! You are absolutely wrong, dead wrong. (Ron) This is for both Temcat and PAUL: Isaiah 4:1-4, says that all seven women (denoting seven churches--all formally organized churches) will be doing their own thing at the end time. No other organization is required. God has taken the reins into His own hands and the gospel is going without any formal organization. One man with enough money can take the gospel to the entire world, and the Eternal Gospel Church is proof of what I am saying. God has and will use means that are so simple that it will amaze the "organization" men. Philadelphia was never formally organized, and she never will be. She is the church triumphant and her only leader is God. She is organized alright! But not according to man's notion of what organization consists of. Show me another formally organized church after the apostasy of the professing SDA organized church, and I will show you the next victim of Ezekiel 9 and Isaiah 4:1!

(Paul) If you were to study the 1441 references to the word "organize" (and all its derivatives), you would find that there were "rebels against organization" who were saying the same things in the 1850's and early 60's. Their arguments sounded real good, but there were point blank statements from the SOP which utterly exposed the fallacy of their reasoning. I would suggest you look up the first 100 of those 1441 references to get just a small taste of the potency of what you are up against. Study all 1441. You will not find one that speaks against organization (either the principle of organization, or the actual implementation of a general conference). You will find nothing that indicates that God will cease to have an organized work (study CAREFULLY).

(Temcat) Is a 'Come out of Israel' message preached? No.

(Ron) The warning message is to come out of Babylon, and any organization or movement that is aligned with Babylon in any way! That now includes new movement, new organization, Synagogue of Satan, cold apostate, professing Adventism, whom God Himself warned would masquerade as Philadelphia, Rev. 3:9. Rev. 3:9 gives high clue as to just what we are called out of and most have missed this gravely important, crucial verse.

(Paul) The GCSDA is no longer modern Israel. It no longer meets the conditions.

(Ron) Right you are Paul! It does not even qualify as a church because it has REMOVED GOD, and "only His presence can constitute a church," The Upward Look, 315]. It is now the "church" of Satan, Rev. 3:9, or the Synagogue of Satan. That is what God pronounced apostate Israel to be, and that is what God has pronounced apostate Adventism to be, Rev. 3:9. To say that the Synagogue of Satan is not part and parcel of Babylon and vice versa, is utopian error and ignorance.

(Temcat) But a repent and return to God message is preached and those who obey it and sound the alarm cry mostly are thrown out; because as in Jeremiah's day and the time of Christ, she is a persecuting power that will kowtow to everything but the TRUTH! That she cannot tolerate, as it shows her lewdness in departing from the living God. The Spirit of Prophecy warnings show the things that will come in, but no where does it say she will become Babylon, it says she will be destroyed.

(Ron) Ellen White says that Ezekiel 9 is a representation of what will come upon the world at the end time. Here Jerusalem, the world, is directly paralleled with the world. And where does it all begin. At His sanctuary, the house of Jacob, no less, Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211. According to Josephus, an eyewitness, the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70,began at the Temple Sanctuary and spread to the city of Jerusalem. EGW says the destruction will be an antitype of the type of AD 27-70. The same true prophets that warned the faithful of Jerusalem as to when to flee, and the same example of Jesus calling people out 43 years before the debacle, will be and is being fulfilled this very day, right before our very eyes.

(Temcat) What about the faithful? Will they perish with the guilty? NO, not if they are truly faithful; God makes that so clear in the prophecies but I don't have time to deal with that right now.

(Ron) I would be most interested in what you have not had time to deal with right now! I am waiting on tiptoe, but I will not hold my breath.

(Temcat) Some have said to me, Temcat, you are into the Old Testament too much--friends I urge all of you to get into the Old Testament. SOP is clear in telling us that all of those prophetic writings have a spiritual application to OUR DAY!!

(Ron) And God has shown this writer that Isaiah 37:31, 32, has a special re-application to our day, as does Ezekiel 5:3, and Isaiah 4:1-4, which DOES NOT contradict Isaiah 37:31, 32, by the way! Also, Jeremiah 11:9-15 is most apropos at this time since everything within that passage has been abundantly fulfilled by the apostate New Movement imposter SDA church calling itself spiritual Jew, "chosen," while being the Synagogue of Satan or Babylon. Either term is synonymous with the other. The chief whore in the Synagogue of Satan is Rome. She and her daughters reside in the Synagogue of Satan. As do all the non-Christian religions and those who have no religion at all.

(Temcat) If you spend as much time studying them as you do looking at the evil in the church, you will become wise unto your own salvation. There is one final plea I want to throw out here; and I do it with tears andpleading to my brethren. There is something I see happening to us; those who feel called to warn against the apostasy and call for repentance. Many are focusing so hard on the way the church leaders are going and the wickedness of her and her lovers, that they are becoming like that wickedness! It is being REPRODUCED in their character!!

(Ron) Ellen White has forewarned us that every Reform movement has fanatics and those who overstep the bounds to support Satan. But that does not negate true Reform and a most startling warning message of truth. One clue as to the wrong, Satanic element, is those who feel bitterness. I feel absolutely no bitterness toward anyone associated with the imposter church. I feel deep sorrow and pity that God's once chosen people could become so utterly deluded. But I can say with a clear conscience before God Almighty that I do not feel any tinge of bitterness, and I warn against this and accepting the spirit of anyone who manifests this. But let us not confuse straight-forward and most startling testimony with bitterness.

(Temcat) We see so called historic and separationist SDAs acting as intolerant as the ones they are accusing or even worse if possible. We are seeing Beast characters and hearing Dragon talk all over the place these days. We see PROUD despotic ministry leaders, we see despisers of the brethren, we hear accusations flying like deadly missiles. Friends, if we stare at the dragon enough we will talk like the dragon! We will BE like the Dragon. God's apostate people can't BECOME Babylon, but they can develop a character like the Beast and the Dragon.

(Ron) We need to be very careful here. Satan would see to it that every reform movement is tainted and tinged with his agents. Ellen White had to deal with all manner of fanaticism and ill-found zeal. That should never prevent true reform. Temcat, I cannot help but discern that your bid is like Satan, saying avoid reform lest you become a fallen zealot. Just like leaders of New Movement Adventism have said: "It is dangerous to be a reformer!" Sure it is, but even Christ was a Reformer and a Protestant, says Ellen White. God's true remnant will see through faulty instruments and will hear the calls of the true shepherds. We need to spend much time beholding Christ, and I hope that is your intended meaning Temcat, instead of scrapping the Reform movement! If we do our personal study homework, and daily time with Christ, we will not be deceived by the John Osborne's of the reform work. In my very first Omega Journal of 1988, I branded John as one of the unfaithful spies (as in Joshua and Caleb spying out the land). He has never proven me wrong. I will not mention the others, but not one has failed to fulfill my prophetic statement--not one!>

(Paul) A prophet of God said that the GCSDA could indeed become a fallen sister. "Can't become" is falsehood.

(Temcat) 2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

(Paul) You have a distorted view of His character. God is not sentimental.He does not unconditionally bless/use anyone or any group. Lucifer? Adam/Eve? Yes, they fell! Israel? Fallen! Papacy? Fallen! Protestants? Fallen! GCSDA??????????? "Oh, He will NOT LET that happen". A distorted view my sister. An inconsistent view. I heard people in Colton CA tell me that the Babylon warnings (and there are many) are merely "threats" in order to "get reform". In other words, "scare tactics". I would suppose this would be the only logical explanation for those who say it "can't become". Now, what does this say about GODS CHARACTER??? Why sister, the God that you serve is BIG BLUFFER. He's just trying to INTIMIDATE you in order to "get reform". Thus the lie thatSatan told Eve, and the lie that Satan told the antedeluvians repeated in our day. Whose face are we looking into? The God I serve does not bluff. He warns and threatens in order that people might turn to Him in Godly fear and accept of His mercy, BUT... If they REJECT the warnings, and PRESUME upon His mercy, and DESPISE is overtures of love, HE WILL INDEED CARRY OUT HIS THREATENINGS. This is the God I respect and love.
I hope that Adventism will stop smearing His character while professing to uplift it. Satan laughs. Hypnotism.

(Temcat) Spend your precious last few moments of probation looking at the LAMB; only lamb characters will go home with the Lamb; only Lamb talk is acceptable to Him. Remember the lambs follow the Shepherd whithersoever He goeth. Even into the jaws of death, but there is no dragon or beast talk among them, no pride and self-exaltation, no despotic, kingly rule. Now, am I saying the true sheep do nothing about the apostasy? No way! But if you study the Spirit of Prophecy you see that the only way to combat error is not to parade error but to put forth truth. Darkness must flee before light, but parading darkness never gives light. When danger comes, what do sheep naturally do?

(Ron) With all due respect Temcat, I can obey you or Ellen White's admonition and God's admonition to "sigh and cry for the abominations," and to cry aloud and spare not, show my people their sins. Your advice runs counter to everything Ellen White advises in Testimonies, vol. 5, chapter beginning 209 and on. We need to behold Christ, yes indeed, but not to the neglect of other instruction! Watch your balance sister, lest you fall off the Midnight Cry Lighted Path, making it impossible to get on again. That is my incessant prayer for you and every professing Seventh-day Adventist.

(Paul) "We are in DANGER of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon"- EGW. You ask, "When DANGER comes, what do the sheep naturally do?" Answer: The FALSE SHEEP blow off the danger message and call it a scare tactic! They feel no burden to follow the Shepherd, or listen to His warning messages. Oh, God save us from the bewitching influence of the serpent.

(Temcat) Why they bleat and run about to warn their fellow sheep and they cry to the Shepherd for help! They never turn around and roar!

(Ron) Temcat, why BARK, Isaiah 56:10-12? And Testimonies, vol. 5, 211? Also as I stated above, God says: "Cry aloud..." Isaiah 58:1. I join Paul in saying that anything I have said is to warn you out of a motive of love and responsibility for your soul. We are our brother's keeper, and I do not know you personally, never heard of you before, but I love you with agape love, because you are brethren and a creature of God. Sincerely, Ron Beaulieu

(Paul) Jesus is called a "lamb" and a "lion" in the Bible. He was entirely dependent upon His Father, and AS A RESULT was able to roar like a lion when called to do so. May God raise up faithful lambs who will not fear to roar because others may misinterpret them and label them "unchristlike", "harsh",...etc. By their fruits, ye SHALL know them... Many selectively read inspiration to find the "fruits" that they like. May God give us discernment and true balance.

Dear sister, I hope you do not think I'm trying to "blast" you. I just see a lot of confusion about God's character, and that means a lot to me. Please consider the words that were written as those that are coming from a Christian brother than loves you, and is praying/striving for your edification.

In His service...
Paul Rahoi.

(Temcat) And the Good Shepherd always hears the sheep and then His rod and His staff protect them. Friends no one with Dragon ways will be in the 'Secret place of the Most High' no matter what they consider themselves to be. Probation lingers a moment, maybe the door is still ajar for you or me to quickly make our way into that Most Holy and fall down and lay off all our sins and pride and self and be covered with the blood of the Lamb. It soon won't be available and if we aren't ready? The thought is too horrible to think about! Be Ready! Now!

"Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee. But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth." Jeremiah 7:27,28

"TemCat" =^..^=

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