A Critique of Walter Veith’s Video – Imperfect Yet Still God's Church

"He will take his Holy Spirit from the church and Give it to OTHERS who will appreciate it." E. G. White, Review and Herald, July 16, 1895,  Vol. 3, 272.

"The angel with the writer's ink horn is to place a mark upon the foreheads of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel follows this angel (Letter 12, 1886). {4BC 1161.5}


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I supplicated the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to empower me to be able to respond to the heresies in Dr. Walter Veith’s video entitled Imperfect, Yet God’s Church, and He graciously showed me the following errors of omission or commission as taught by Professor Walter Veith. What Dr. Walter Veith does not know could mean your loss of eternal life if you follow his lead. Also, Roger Morneau’s teachings are just a rubber stamping of Veith’s views insofar as membership in a new movement apostate church is concerned.


Considerations to ponder:


·       A theocracy is a corporate body. Ellen White said the  SDA church is a theocracy.


Theocracy -- "God's people have been called out of the world, that they may be separated from the world. It is not safe for them to take sides in politics, whatever preference they may have. They are ever to remember that they are one in Christ. God calls upon them to enter their names as under His THEOCRACY. He cannot approve of those who link up with worldlings [and churches which cannot be distinguished from the world, Early Writings, 273]. We are entirely out of our place when we identify ourselves with party interests....

God has chosen a people who are to proclaim the third angel's message to the world. They are to be a separate and peculiar people in this world of churches who are transgressing His commandments." E.G. White Manuscript Releases Volume 3, 40, 41.


·       Walter Veith advocates intercession on the part of the apostate church. That involves prayer for the church. See Jeremiah 11:9-15.

·       Imperfections by way of faults and defects such as we all have are in no way to be confused with open sin apostasy.


Walter Veith advocates unity at any risk. Cf:


·       "We are to unify, but not on a platform of error." E.G. White, Special Testimonies, Series B, #2, p. 47.


"We have a testing message to give, and I am instructed to say to our people, 'Unify, unify.' But we are not to unify with those who are departing from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. With our hearts sweet and kind and true, we are to go forth to proclaim the message, giving no heed to those who lead away from the truth." Selected Messages, vol. 3, p. 412 Series B, No. 2, p. 47.


The words of Jesus to His disciples in regard to the  Ezekiel 9 destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, are referred to in Great Controversy, p. 25, as a twofold prefigure:


1.    Prefiguring the destruction of Jerusalem BEGINNING AT HIS SANCTUARY. Ezekiel 9:6. 5T 211.

2.    The destructive judgments of the last great day BEGINNING AT HIS SANCTUARY, 5T 211, Ezekiel 9:6.

3.    In that prefigure, the good left the bad. So it must be so in the antitype if both are literal as Ellen White said the next literal fulfillment begins at His sanctuary. 5T 211; Ezekiel 9:6. This is irrefutable truth.


God’s Organized People


Great mileage has been attributed to Ellen White’s statement that God has an organized people through whom He will work. Because of this statement, SDA’s seem to think that no matter what they do God need them to complete His work. Does God need anything?


"He will take his Holy Spirit from the church and give it to OTHERS who will appreciate it." E. G. White, Review and Herald, July 16, 1895,  Vol. 3, 272.


Why do you suppose no SDA leader quotes the above statement?


Walter Veith does not believe that statement. Most SDA’s do not believe that statement. Veith says that the Holy Spirit is definitely going to be poured out on the church after all the bad are shaken out. Why would Ezekiel 9 begin at His Sanctuary, were that true? Where does God say the bad are shaken—Ezekiel 22:17-31? Upon reading those verses you will see that Dr. Veith is not speaking according to God’s Word or the Testimonies, so there is no light in him.


"Worldly policy is taking the place of true piety and wisdom that comes from above, and God will remove His prospering hand from the conference. Shall the ark of the covenant be removed from this people? Shall idols be smuggled in? Shall false principles and false precepts be brought into the sanctuary? Shall antichrist be respected? Shall the true doctrines and principles given us of God, which have made us what we are, be ignored?.... This is directly where the enemy, through blinded, unconsecrated men, is leading us." E. G. White, Manuscript 29, 1890.


Why do you suppose Veith does not quote the above statement? It does not say God might remove His prospering hand from the conference, the leadership of the organized church. It says God WILL remove His prospering hand from the conference.


"The Lord Jesus will always have a chosen people to serve Him. When the Jewish people rejected Christ, the Prince of life, He took from them the kingdom of God and gave it unto the Gentiles. God will continue to work on this principle with every branch of His work. When a church proves unfaithful to the work of the Lord, whatever their position may be, however high and sacred their calling, the Lord can no longer work with them. Others are then chosen to bear important responsibilities. But, if these in turn do not purify their lives from every wrong action, if they do not establish pure and holy principles in all their borders, then the Lord will grievously afflict and humble them and, unless they repent, will remove them from their place and make them a reproach.

God is not 'worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed anything (Acts 17:25)." E.G. White, The Upward Look, 131. 


Just who might the OTHERS be whom God chooses? I’ll let Ellen White answer that all important question.


Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! God has a Plan B Church that is organized under His care reserved for the time when He Takes the reins in His own hands!


“God will use ways and means by which it will be seen that He is taking the reins in His own hands.  The workers will be surprised by the simple means that He will use to bring about and perfect His work of righteousness.”  Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, 300.


Oh yes Sir Veith! God has an organized church through whom He will work but it is abundantly evident that you know nothing of that church. You, like your apostate lackeys as blind leaders of the blind, believe and teach that God NEEDS SOMETHING—MAINLY YOU BUNCH OF APOSTATES who have committed unpardonable sin! What a surprise God has in store for you dear sir. I can only express great pathos for you for with all your education, you think you know it all and God’s servant Ellen White said long, long ago that there is no greater deception than for


Firmament of Chosen ones -- “Among earth’s inhabitants, scattered in every land, there are those who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Like the stars of heaven, which appear only at night, these faithful ones will shine forth when darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people. In heathen Africa, in the Catholic lands of Europe and of South America, in China, in India, in the islands of the sea, and in all the dark corners of the earth, God has in reserve a firmament of chosen ones that will yet shine forth amidst the darkness, revealing clearly to an apostate world the transforming power of obedience to His law. Even now they are appearing in every nation, among every tongue and people; and in the hour of deepest apostasy, when Satan’s supreme effort is made to cause ‘all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond,’ to receive, under penalty of death, the sign of allegiance to a false rest day, these faithful ones, ‘blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke,’ will ‘shine as lights in the world.’ Revelation :16; Philippians 2:15. The darker the night, the more brilliantly will they shine.”— Prophets and Kings, 188-189.


The Lord has shown me that the above people are the bride (Philadelphians) regenerated from all ages (Rev. 3:10-12) who are kept through the time of trouble. Remember that promise was made to the original church of Philadelphia circa A.D. 27 and on. If this sounds strange to some of you more novices in the Word, recall how at His resurrection, Christ raised folk from the grave to give the gospel then! God has warned us that if we fail to do our duty, He will cry the gospel from the rocks if necessary, but we think that is foolish and that He needs us too much to do such a foolish thing!


More “Others” More Surprises!


     “There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you [SDA’S OBVIOUSLY]. But it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the day time we look toward heaven but do not see the stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster. {5T 80.1}


     "The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The mark of the beast will be urged upon us. Those who have step by step yielded to worldly demands and conformed to worldly customs will not find it a hard matter to yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. The contest is between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness. {5T 81.1}


Note: The separation of the gold from the dross in the church means the good separated from the bad just as Ezekiel 22:17-31 teaches. But this has nothing to do with separation from apostasy in any succeeding generation, Desire of Ages, 232.


     When trees without fruit are cut down as cumberers of the ground, when multitudes of false brethren are distinguished from the true, then the hidden ones will be revealed to view, and with hosannas range under the banner of Christ. Those who have been timid and self-distrustful will declare themselves openly for Christ and His truth. The most weak and hesitating in the church will be as David--willing to do and dare. The deeper the night for God's people, the more brilliant the stars. Satan will sorely harass the faithful;


but, in the name of Jesus, they will come off more than conquerors. Then will the church of Christ appear "fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." {5T 81.2}


Don’t make the great mistake of believing the above statement refers to only SDA’s, because the first paragraph of the quote speaks of those who have not had the light of truth emblazoned upon them as SDA’s have!


And yet More Surprises for the Smug Laodicean and Cold Apostate Adventists


Angels to help finish the work:


“When divine power is combined with human effort, the work will spread like fire in the stubble.  God will employ agencies whose origin man will be unable to discern; angels will do a work which men might have had the blessing of accomplishing, had they not neglected to answer the claims of God.”  Review and Herald, December 15, 1885.


God is going to finish this work in His own way with the help of the eleventh hour workers.  This is very important. 


“God has children, many of them, in the Protestant churches, and a large number in the Catholic churches, who are more true to obey the light and to do [to] the very best of their knowledge than a large number among Sabbathkeeping Adventists who do not walk in the light.  The Lord will have the message of truth proclaimed, that Protestants may be warned and awakened to the true state of things, and consider the worth of the privilege of religious freedom which they have long enjoyed.”  Selected Messages, Book 3, 386.  Do you need to read this paragraph again?  I think you do!


A holier people from the ranks of Babylon!  Wow! Praise God!


“There are many souls to come out of the ranks of the world, out of the churches—even the Catholic Church—whose zeal will far exceed that of those who have stood in rank and file to proclaim the truth heretofore.  For this reason the eleventh hour laborers will receive their penny.”  Ibid., 386, 387.


Eleventh hour workers are the people who are going to come out from the Babylonian churches.  In Matthew 20, Jesus Christ said that this work is going to be finished by the eleventh hour workers in the vineyard.  Eleventh hour workers are going to come into Zion, the 144,000 to help us.


“These will see the battle coming and will give the trumpet a certain sound.  When the crisis is upon us, when the season of calamity shall come, they will come to the front, gird themselves with the whole armor of God, and exalt His law, adhere to the faith of Jesus [another expression of keeping God’s Commandments and having the faith of Jesus], and maintain the cause of religious liberty which reformers defended with toil and for which they sacrificed their lives.”  Ibid., 387.


Eleventh hour workers are outside right now, and God is going to bring them to the harvest to finish the work so that we can go home.  When God takes the reins into His own hands, He is going to use simple people and simple methods, and it is going to take no time at all.  He has to finish the work, and we have to let Him.  How?  You and I must become firstfruits, the 144,000.


An Example of the Rotted Fruit of Veith’s Teaching on Laodicea


Veith's apologetics for Laodicea is from a premise of lukewarmness rather than cold, unpardonable sin apostasy that is the truth of the matter. He imbibes the very same mantra the apostate Jewish leaders told the Jews to get them to remain with the apostate church. Read all about it in Chapter 1 of The Great Controversy. They said the Temple was God's church even though their candlestick was REMOVED at the renting of the vail at Christ's crucifixion. Yet they still told the people they were still the chosen of God and that the Romans would not penetrate the 24 ft. thick gates to the city. Ron begin


Dr. Veith teaches that we are saved as individuals and that is true. But he also teaches that sin open apostate sin in the church accrues only on an individual basis. DD is a worshipful advocate of Dr. Veith and below is an example of the fruit of Veith’s teaching as it has affected DD:


----- Original Message -----

From: DD

To: Adventist-fm@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 12:06 PM

Subject: Re: [Adventist-fm] No corporate responsibility


No corporate responsibility.

We are saved individually as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. RH, February 10, 1891 par. 5

Jesus is coming in to give the individual members of the church the richest blessings, if they will open the door to Him. He does not once call them Babylon, nor ask them to come out. 2SM 67.1



I warn you all. Study the above post well.


This is classic DD. This is as foolish virgin as it gets. He uses two statements to annul other crucial evidence instead of interpreting so that all evidence, EVERY WORD, does not contradict. There is a whale of evidence on corporate responsibility. During my last plea to DD days ago, he made a private request that I furnish all evidence on corporate responsibility to him for review. I spent a good bit of time doing just that. Here is the compilation of that lengthy and voluminous evidence:




Then DD says "NO CORPORATE RESPONSIBILITY." That is unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit if there ever was such a thing. I would never dare to say such a thing. Being saved as individuals is a different matter than being responsible for being our brother’s keeper. It is cain talk to say we are not responsible for retaining open sinners in the church while NEVER AGAIN showing the House of Jacob its sins, Testimonies, Vol. 5, 211.


Corporate Responsibility


These are just a small sample of evidence on corporate responsibility which Walter Veith and all other apostate SDA leaders deny:


"The plain straight testimony must live in the church, or the curse of God will rest upon His people as surely as it did upon ancient Israel because of their sins. God holds His people, as a body [corporately], responsible for the sins existing in individuals among them." Testimonies, vol. 3, p. 269.


“The children were not condemned for the sins of the parents; but when, with a knowledge of all the light given to their parents, the children rejected the additional light granted to themselves, they became partakers of the parents' sins, and filled up the measure of their iniquity.” The Great Controversy, p. 28.


Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.


"The headquarters of our church, affect the whole body of believers. If the physical heart is healthy, the blood that is sent from it through the system is also healthy; but if this fountain is impure, the whole organism becomes diseased by the poison of the vital fluid. So it is with us. If the heart of the work becomes corrupt, the whole church, in its various branches and interests, scattered abroad over the face of the earth, suffers in consequence." Testimonies, vol. 4, p. 210.


In our largest churches the greatest evils exist, because these have had the greatest light. They have not a true knowledge of God, and of Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The leaven of unbelief is working, and unless these evils which bring the displeasure of God are corrected in its members, the whole church stands accountable for them. The deep movings of the Spirit of God are not with them; the glorious presence of the King of saints, and his power to cleanse from all moral defilement, are not manifest among them. Many come to the assembly as worshipers, like the door upon its hinges. They understand not the true application of the Scriptures, nor the power of God. They have eyes, but they see not; ears have they, but they hear not; they continue in their evil ways, yet regard themselves as the privileged, obedient people who are doers of the word. A carnal security and ease in Zion prevail. Peace, peace, is sounded in her borders, when God has not spoken peace. They have forfeited the terms of peace; there is reason for an alarm to be sounded in all "my holy mountain." The sinners in Zion should be afraid, in a time when they do not expect it, sudden destruction will surely come upon all who are at ease.” {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 10}


"Whosesoever sins ye remit," said Christ, "they are remitted; . . . and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained." Christ here gives no liberty for any man to pass judgment upon others. In the Sermon on the Mount He forbade this. It is the prerogative of God. But on the church in its organized capacity He places a responsibility for the individual members. Toward those who fall into sin, the church has a duty, to warn, to instruct, and if possible to restore. "Reprove, rebuke, exhort," the Lord says, "with all long-suffering and doctrine." 2 Tim. 4:2.


Open sin to be put out of the Camp


"Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church..."  Christ's Object Lessons, 71.


This labor of purifying the church is a painful work, but one that must not be neglected, if the church would have the commendation of God." E. G. White, Review and Herald Articles,  06-07-1887, paragraph 16.


Jesus separated the disciples from open sin apostasy. In every generation since there has been separation because of ONE THING: the leaders would not tolerate light, DA 232. In 1844, Adventists separated from open sin apostasy. It is impossible for the wheat to mature amongst open sinning thorns.


“... The Lord will not write as wise those who cannot distinguish between a tree that bears thorn-berries and a tree that bears olives. {EGW, RH, September 7, 1897 par. 15}.


"It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to unite with those who are corrupt, and still remain pure. (II Corinthians 6:14-15 quoted). God and Christ and the heavenly host would have men know that if he unites with the corrupt he will become corrupt." E. G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 4, p. 137.


In the document appearing at this link https://omega77.tripod.com/veithbruinsmaarticle1.htm

Walter Veith totally denies corporate responsibility by saying that the German Union Conference leader was solely responsible for uniting the church with the ecumenical German Federation of Churches. Veith poses the question: Where is the fold which no wolves will enter in an attempt to excuse corporate responsibility for open sin apostasy? He quotes Ellen White out of context on this wolves question. The context for her question where is the fold where no wolves will enter, was her letter to Stanton and Caldwell in 1893. She said the church was then:


·       Experiencing a spiritual refreshing.

·       Keeping the commandments of God.

·       Heeding the Laodicean message.


It was in that context that she asked the sensible question: Where could we go? In other words, where could one go to improve on that?!!! Where is such a church that wolves won’t enter? But she kept the wolves at bay! She said even the Jesuits would not invade the church while she was alive because she could put the finger on them!


Did the churches established by the disciples have wolves in them? Does the church of Philadelphia have wolves in it when it is not faulted for one thing?


Since we all believe that we are at the end-time, does God have a bride church ready to awaken the ten virgins? Did you know that the bride is distinguished from the 10 virgins she awakens? Did you know the name of that bride is Zion, New Jerusalem. Did you know she has earthly representatives in the form of the THIRD ANGEL, which symbolizes faithful men who separate the wheat from the tares? Please note:


Veith does not know that the church he recommends as God’s church long ago had its candlestick removed when it committed the unpardonable sins of:


·       Adopting an antichrist teaching on the human nature of Christ by saying that He is not like us because He is not like Adam before or after the fall? This is blasphemy when the Bible teaches that Christ was made to be sin for us though He had no personal sin. That is the equalizer. That is how he experienced all the temptations of man.

·       Adopting Rome’s central teaching on the Godhead, the Trinity Doctrine, which bypasses the Incarnation sacrifice in the heavenly Sanctuary at which time the Holy Spirit of the Son of God was divested from His humanity to become a separate and distinct third person. Christ died to that DIVINE ONLY state of being at the Incarnation and became forever combined with humanity. That “forever death” to something was the fulfilling of Testator’s Covenant. Without that fulfillment in payment for our wages of sin, there would have been no Sanctuary Service and Atonement in heaven—thus the Sanctuary would be rendered as GONE, the Atonement GONE, thus sweeping away the entire Christian economy. That is what blind, dumb-dog watchmen have achieved in adopting Rome’s Trinity Doctrine, yet as in the Alpha of Heresy they look on but don’t seem to understand what they have done because Isaiah 56:10-12 says ALL of them don’t understand. It says ALL three times. If you would like to better understand the unpardonable sin abomination of adopting Rome’s trinity doctrine, see this link: https://omega77.tripod.com/testatorcovenant.htm

·       Violation of the Second Angel’s Message and the Midnight Cry via strictly forbidden membership in Babylon’s councils/counsels and Ministerial Associations. According to Isaiah 8:9-12, this is unpardonable sin. According to Jeremiah 11:9-15, this constitutes unpardonable sin or the removal of the candlestick for the professing new movement SDA Synagogue  of Satan. This may seem severe to some bleeding heart lukewarmers, but Ellen White said that only the presence of Christ can constitute a church and Selected Messages, Bk. 1, 204-205 says that the new movement has removed God.

·       Professing SDA New movement leaders maintain that membership in Babylon’s associations and counsels is of benefit, but Dr. B.B. Beach, the GC Public Affairs official before Dr. John Graz, could not tell me of ONE person who had been converted to Adventism via SDA ecumenical involvement. But I could tell him about Dr. Earle Hilgert, the first SDA representative to the ecumenical movement, who left the church to become a Presbyterian minister. That is the fruit of disobeying God’s grave directives in Isaiah 8:9-12.

·       In Jeremiah 11:9-15, God’s people conspired (confederated) with His enemies and that was unpardonable sin for that generation of Jews. How do we know that? By the fact that God instructed Jeremiah not to even pray for them any longer.

·       Dr.’s John Grosboll and the late Dr. Ralph Larson said that the church has committed unpardonable sin in their joint article None Dare Call it Apostasy.


Apparently, Dr. Walter Veith is totally blind to the seriousness of the apostasy of God’s people. Maybe it does not seem so bad to him since he is a convert from Catholicism. He take Joel 2 totally out of context. That chapter refers to Zion, the church triumphant, the 144,000, the bride of Christ, and it is not the end result of the church militant which God relates in Ezekiel chapter 5.

Joel 2    

 1Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

·       Zion is the bride of Christ, the 144,000

·       Philadelphia is the Zion that is made pillars in the Temple on Mt. Zion, Rev. 3:10-12.

·       Only the 144,000 enter the Temple on Mt. Zion. Early  Writings, p. 19

·       Zion the bride, gives the awakening cry to all ten slumbering, sleeping virgins. Christ’s Object Lessons, 405-406.

·       Zion is thus the church triumphant.

·       Zion is the third angel of faithful men who selects the wheat from the tares.

 2A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Compare with Isaiah 62 on Zion whose brightness the entire world will see.

 3A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

 4The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

 5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

 6Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

 7They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

 8Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

 9They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

 10The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

 11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

 12Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

 13And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

 14Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

 15Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:

 16Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

 17Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?

 18Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

 19Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:

 20But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

 21Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.

 22Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.

 23Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

The children of Zion (Sons and daughters, Isaiah 62) are the people of the various churches who are guests at the wedding and if guests they cannot be the bride and vice versa, GC, 426, 427.

 24And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

 25And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

 26And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

 27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

 28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

 29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

 30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

 31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

 32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Characteristics of Zion

The Remnant:  "The woman is a symbol of the church, and the remnant of the church represents the Christians of the last generation of men, living just prior to the second advent. The dragon makes war on these for keeping the commandments of God, Sabbath and all, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ, which, according to the inspired definition of chap. xix, 10, 'is the spirit of prophecy.' Here, then, are the causes of the dragon's warfare upon the remnant. They teach the observance of the ten commandments, and the revival of the gifts, and acknowledge the gift of prophecy among them. When the Devil got one foot upon the fourth commandment, and the other upon the gifts planted in the Christian church by Jesus Christ, then his satanic majesty was filled with revengeful delight. But when the remnant, whom God designs to fit for translation to Heaven without seeing death, 'ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein,' then the dragon is wroth, and makes war on them.      

The true spirit of the dragonic host, which is already being somewhat developed, is vividly described in Isa. xxx, 8-13, as being manifested just prior to the sudden destruction of those who hate the pure testimony, and love smooth and deceitful things." E. G. White, Spiritual Gifts, Vol. III, 26, 27.


"The members of the church triumphant--the church in heaven--will be permitted to draw near to the members of the church militant, to aid them in their necessity." E. G. White, The Southern Watchman, Sep. 8, 1903.  

"Characteristics of True Reformers.--Here are given the characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear the banner of the third angel's message, those who avow themselves God's commandment-keeping people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in the sight of all the universe, in building up the old waste places. Who is it that calls them, The repairers of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is God. Their names are registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations of many generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1151.


 22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Heb. 12:22, 23.


Now let’s juxtapose Ezekiel 5 to the above chapter of Joel 2, to find what will happen to apostate Laodicean and cold apostate Adventism. Walter Veith applies only Joel 2 which is totally involved with the 144,000 army of God, Zion, the true bride of Christ.


Ezekiel 5

 1And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair.


 2Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.


 3Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.


Note: This few in number is the remnant, the 144,000.


 4Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.


 5Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.


 6And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.


This (above) is why Ellen White said the church is worse than Babylon:


Worse than Babylon -- "God's professed people are selfish and self-caring....They are idolaters, and are worse, in the sight of God, than the heathen, graven-image worshippers who have had no knowledge of a better way." Testimonies, Vol. 2, 440-442.


“Then I was pointed back to the years 1843 and 1844. There was a spirit of consecration then that there is not now. What has come over the professed peculiar people of God? I saw the conformity to the world, the unwillingness to suffer for the truth's sake. I saw a great lack of submission to the will of God…”
“I saw that many who profess to believe the truth for these last days think it strange that the children of Israel murmured as they journeyed; that after the wonderful dealings of God with them, they should be so ungrateful as to forget what He had done for them. Said the angel: "Ye have done worse than they."
Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, p 128, 129.


 7Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that are round about you;


 8Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations.


This is Ezekiel 9 judgment in the sight of all nations.


 9And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.


 10Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.


 11Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.


 12A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.


 13Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.


 14Moreover I will make thee waste, and a reproach among the nations that are round about thee, in the sight of all that pass by.


 15So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken it.


 16When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread:


 17So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee: and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.


King James Version (KJV)    


 "Of those who boast of their light, and yet fail to walk in it, Christ says, 'But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.  And thou, Capernaum [Seventh-day Adventists, who have had great light], with art exalted unto heaven [in point of privilege], shalt be brought down to hell...'

     "'And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the Lord, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye answered not; therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by My name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.  And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim'" 3RH 69, August 1, 1893.

[Brackets are as they appear in the original statement—I have added nothing to the statement but bold emphasis and underlining].


What apostasy would Veith consider valid cause for removing the church’s candlestick? And if a church’s candlestick can be removed, IS NOT THIS CLEAR EVIDENCE OF CORPORATE RESPONSIBILITY?!


In Jeremiah 11:9-15, that church of Jews had their candlestick removed because God told Jeremiah to no longer pray for those Jews. What warranted the removal of their candlestick? They conspired (confederated) with God’s enemies, just as the SDA new movement church has confederated (by conspiracy) with Babylon’s councils/counsels, and associations (Ministerial Associations). God strictly forbids this in Isaiah 8:9-12 saying three times that all who do this will be broken in pieces—NO RECONCILIATION, JUST BROKEN IN PIECES, and Jeremiah 11:9-15 confirms this serious penalty for such unpardonable sin.


One would think Walter Veith is intelligent enough to understand the seriousness of Jeremiah 11:9-15 in lieu of these statements:


COUNTERPART: "The Lord commanded one of his ancient servants, 'Pray not thou for this people [Jer. 7:16 and 11:14], neither lift up cry nor prayer for them neither make intercession to me for I will not hear thee.' The prophet thus describes the sins which had called forth this fearful denunciation: 'The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means and my people love to have it so and what will ye do in the end thereof?' 'From the least of them even unto the greatest of them, every one is given to covetousness and from the prophet even unto the priest, every one dealeth falsely. They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace, when there is no peace.' The apostles declare that this state of things will find its COUNTERPART in the last days. Many have a form of godliness, but in their daily life deny the power thereof. They have ceased to be convicted of their sins or alarmed at their state. They say in their hearts, 'The church is flourishing. Peace and spiritual prosperity are within her borders.' The words of the prophet may well apply to these self-deceivers, 'They have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them." E. G. White,  Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald,  11-07-82.


COUNTERPART: "In the time of the Saviour, the Jews had so covered over the precious jewels of truth with the rubbish of tradition and fable, that it was impossible to distinguish the true from the false. The Saviour came to clear away the rubbish of superstition and long-cherished errors, and to set the jewels of God's word in the framework of truth. What would the Saviour do if he should come to us now as he did to the Jews? He would have to do a similar work in clearing away the rubbish of tradition and ceremony. The Jews were greatly disturbed when he did this work [As are SDAs today!]. They had lost sight of the original truth of God, but Christ brought it again to view. It is our work to free the precious truths of God from superstition and error." E.G. White,  Review and Herald, vol. 2, 308. 


There is a modern COUNTERPART to the ancient apostate "chosen people" of God. That modern COUNTERPART is the people who claim to be the modern "chosen people" of God, the remnant, God’s commandment-keeping people if you will.


There are over 100 statements to the affect that SDAs are repeating the history of ancient Israel. Here are just a few of them:


"I have been shown that the spirit of the world is fast leavening the church. You are following the same path as did ancient Israel. There is the same falling away from your holy calling as God's peculiar people. You are having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. Your [ecumenical] concord with unbelievers have provoked he Lord's displeasure. You know not the things that belong to your peace, and they are fast being hid from your eyes. [The very words applied to fallen Israel on page 17 of The Great Controversy] Your neglect to follow the light will place you in a more unfavorable position than the Jews upon whom Christ pronounced a woe." Testimonies, Vol. 5, pp. 75-76.


"Like ancient Israel, the church has dishonored her God by departing from the light, neglecting her duties, and abusing her high and exalted privilege of being peculiar and holy in character. Her members have violated their covenant to live for God and him only. They have joined with the selfish and world-loving. Pride, the love of pleasure, and sin have been cherished, and CHRIST HAS DEPARTED. His Spirit has been quenched in the church. Satan works wide by side with professed Christians yet they are so destitute of spiritual discernment that they do not detect him." E.G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 2, pp. 441-442.


"Among the professed followers of Christ, there is the same pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, and OPPRESSION, that existed in the Jewish nation." E.G. White, Sketches from the Life of Paul, 251-252.


"God's professed people are selfish and self-caring....They are idolaters, and are worse, in the sight of God, than the heathen, graven-image worshippers who have had no knowledge of a better way." Testimonies, Vol. 2, 440-441.


Veith so obviously confuses Laodicea (the once church militant) with Zion the church triumphant. That is his basic erroneous premise which makes all else error. Laodicea's candlestick was removed when it committed unpardonable sin via ecumenical liaison with Babylon, the adoption of the antichrist Trinity Doctrine, and the adoption of an antichrist teaching on the human nature of Christ.


Laodicea as applied to professing Seventh-day Adventists applies only to those who have valid cause not to be informed of the apostasy, and that would be a very few in number and would mainly consist of new converts to the new movement.


Veith confuses the calling of a solemn assembly by ZION, in Joel 2, and weeping between the porch and altar of ZION, with weeping between the porch and altar of Laodicea. Laodicea and apostate Adventism, the foolish virgins, are indeed made a taught and instruction to the world, Ezekiel 5. This chapter gives the truth about apostate Laodicea who refuses to buy gold tried in the fire, verses Joel 2 and Zion, the church that does buy gold tried in the fire.


What church should you want to join? The church of Zion, Isaiah 62, Heb. 12:22, 23 and Rev. 14. That church exists now on the earth through its earthly representatives. That church is entered into NOW via faith. Early Writings, pp. 252-255.


Is there a church where no wolves are permitted to enter? Yes, and that church is described in the following quotes.


"The members of the church triumphant--the church in heaven--will be permitted to draw near to the members of the church militant, to aid them in their necessity." E. G. White, The Southern Watchman, Sep. 8, 1903.  

"Characteristics of True Reformers.--Here are given the characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear the banner of the third angel's message, those who avow themselves God's commandment-keeping people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in the sight of all the universe, in building up the old waste places. Who is it that calls them, The repairers of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is God. Their names are registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations of many generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1151. 


The outcome of Laodicea and cold apostate Adventism is clearly portrayed in the following statements, but SDA's will listen to leaders like Veith who will lead them to perdition per Isaiah 9:16.

Apparently Walter Veith has not read and/or believed the final prophesied outcome of the Laodicean SDA church which advanced beyond lukewarmness to cold apostasy, to wit:


"Jesus sends HIS PEOPLE a message of warning to prepare them for his coming. To the prophet John was made known the closing work in the great plan of man's redemption. He beheld an angel flying 'in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his Judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters [Rev. 14:6, 7.].

The angel represented in prophecy as delivering this message,  symbolizes a class of faithful men, who, obedient to the promptings of God's Spirit and the teachings of his word, proclaim this warning to the inhabitants of earth. This message was not to be committed to the religious leaders of the people. They had failed to preserve their connection with God, and had REFUSED THE LIGHT FROM HEAVEN therefore they WERE NOT of the number described by the apostle Paul: 'But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day we are not of the night nor of darkness' [1 Thess. 5:4, 5]. 

The watchmen upon the walls of Zion should be the first to catch the tidings of the Saviour's advent, the first to lift their voices to proclaim him near, the first to warn the people to prepare for his coming. But they were at ease, dreaming of peace and safety, while the people were asleep in their sins. Jesus saw HIS CHURCH, like the barren fig-tree, covered with pretentious leaves, yet destitute of precious fruit. There was a boastful observance of the forms of religion, while the spirit of true humility, penitence and faith--which alone could render the service acceptable to God--was lacking. Instead of the graces of the Spirit, there were manifested pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, oppression. A BACKSLIDING CHURCH closed their eyes to the signs of the times. God did nor forsake them, or suffer his faithfulness to fail but they departed from him, and SEPARATED THEMSELVES from his love. As they REFUSED TO COMPLY WITH THE CONDITIONS, his promises were NOT FULFILLED to them."  E.G. White, The Spirit of Prophecy,  vol. 4, pp. 199-200 [The 1884 edition of The Great Controversy, 199, 200].


A backsliding church is one which had the truth and backslid from it!


Is the SS Laodicea Unsinkable?



Now view Dr. Walter Veith’s video in light of the above weight of evidence which he is either totally ignorant of or chooses to overlook. God says he does not understand and cannot understand, Isaiah 56:10-12. He says the church is a wretched mess, but never cites all the abominations for fear that they might appear as abominable and unpardonable as they really are. Better pray hard before you listen friend. This is a masterpiece of deception using carefully chosen “evidence” that omits all of the important factors I have enumerated above.

 16For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed. Isaiah 9:16.