Response to Brother Marko
Relative to the Church Triumphant
On Earth
Part 5
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Dear Brother Marko, I can now perceive that unless
the actual words “church triumphant” are spelled out and specifically
attributed to Bible and Spirit of Prophecy statements I give, you will never
consent that they refer to the church triumphant on earth. Therefore, this
will be my last attempt to reason with you, no offense intended. The Bible nor Ellen White
mention the word Trinity either. So if I used your pretext, I would not
believe in a Trinity and you could never convince me that there is a Trinity
because Ellen White and the KJV don’t mention the word Trinity one time. You wrote: “a.) Until the end
of probationary time God’s living church upon earth is the church militant” Ron responds: The Bible gives us license to come and reason together. Thus,
I reason, that the following items are evidence for an “invisible” church
triumphant here on earth BEFORE the end of probationary time: 1.
The disciples as the bride of
Christ. Desire of Ages, 179. I
believe the disciples and their followers were saved, so that would be a
church triumphant on earth to me. 2.
The church of Philadelphia, circa
A.D. 27 and on, being extant in every succeeding generation. Since that
church is not faulted for anything, I reason that the church of Philadelphia
is a clear example of the church triumphant. All seven messages to the seven
churches apply to the end of time. Acts
of the Apostles, p. 585. 3.
Philadelphia is made pillars
(leaders) in the Temple of heaven, and only the 144,000 enter that Temple, EW
19, so I believe Philadelphia is a church triumphant that gives the final
Loud Cry BEFORE the second coming. 4.
True Reformers in every succeeding
generation. Desire of Ages, 232. 5.
True Reformers who are registered in
heaven. Quote below. 6. In order for
the voice of the bride to awaken the ten virgin guests, Christ’s object lessons, 405-6, she has to receive the Holy
Spirit similarly as did the disciples on the Day of Pentecost. So she is a
clear example of the Bride, a church triumphant, being in place BEFORE the
final harvest call. 7. I believe the following statement does not refer to any
church militant, but rather to “faithful souls” who are on earth, but brought
into covenant relationship with Christ, and the church in heaven: "From
the beginning, faithful souls have
constituted the church on earth. In every age the Lord has had His watchmen,
who have borne a faithful testimony to
the generation in which they lived. These sentinels gave the message of
warning; and when they were called to lay off their armor, others took up the
work. God brought these witnesses into
covenant relation with Himself, uniting the church on earth (faithful souls
that are yielded to Christ) with the church in Heaven. He has sent forth His angels to minister to His
church, (faithful souls that are yielded to Christ), and the gates of hell
have not been able to prevail against His people." Acts of the Apostles, p. 11. 8. Zion, the Holy Woman that is married in Isaiah 62. I
believe she is married before Christ comes and that she is referred to as the
voice of the bride in COL, 406, before the final Loud Cry Midnight Cry. 9.
The Holy
Woman and her children statement by Ellen White: "The people of God, symbolized by a holy woman and
her children, were represented as greatly in the minority. In the last days
only a remnant still existed. Of these John speaks as they 'which keep the
commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." E. G.
White, Signs of the Times, Nov. 1, 1899, and Seventh-day
Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 7, p. 972. 10. The above statement refers to the church on earth as
well, because it says they are in the
minority as a remnant. The Holy Woman is the bride who makes the final call
of COL. 405-6. She is spoken of in that reference as being the voice of the
bride just before she makes the final Loud Cry call. Thus, she is an
invisible church triumphant on earth. She is the 144,000 Philadelphians. 11. I wrote: The Church
Triumphant Zion From Scripture—Who is the Holy Woman? Isaiah 62:1-5 answers
that question. Isaiah 62
The people of
God constitute His church militant, the bridesmaid guests—GC 427. The bride is
the church triumphant, Zion, the New Jerusalem, who has earthly
representatives, and the bride is the earthly representatives of the New
Jerusalem, Zion, the heavenly church. GC 426-7. There is a
holy woman and her children. The Holy Woman, Zion, is the Mother bride. The
bridesmaidens are the guests at the wedding feast. The holy
woman is, the bride that is married, is Zion, Isaiah 62:1-5. Zion has
children (sons and daughters), verses 5 and 11 respectively. Brother Marko
responded. No. 9 – I agree with you
that the bride is a different entity than the guest people of God – I agree with you
that the bride is Zion, the representative of the kingdom – I agree with you
that the other party is/are the daughters/bridemaidens of Zion But again from the
references you cited (GC 426, 427) I can see no evidence
whatsoever that mentions the church triumphant being the
bride/zion/new jerusalem. There is no mentioning of the triumphant in these
pages establishing this. You are just reading into the text what you already
believe in your own mind, i.e. whenever you see 144,000 or bride you
IMMEDIATELY THINK "church triumphant". But there is no link
in the SOP whatsoever to the words "triumph",
"triumphant", "triumphing", "church triumphant"
or any other double or triple step parallelism I know of. And until you
cannot produce that, I have to continue to label this simply your own private
interpretation. Please therefore show that this is not merely your private
interpretation by bringing forth some deductive evidence/parallelisms
connecting to these above mentioned keywords. Ron
responds: I will cite GC 426 and 427 again and draw a direct parallelism: “The marriage represents the
reception by Christ of His kingdom. The Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which is the capital and representative of
the kingdom, is called "the bride, the Lamb's wife." Said the angel
to John: "Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." "He carried me away in the
spirit," says the prophet, "and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of
heaven from God." Revelation 21:9, 10. Clearly, then, the bride represents the Holy City, and the virgins that go out to meet the
bridegroom are a symbol of the church. In the Revelation the people of God are said to be the
guests at the marriage supper. Revelation 19:9. If guests, they cannot be represented also as the bride. Christ,
as stated by the prophet Daniel, will receive from the Ancient of Days in
heaven, "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom;" He will receive the
New Jerusalem, the capital of His kingdom, "prepared as a bride adorned
for her husband." Daniel 7:14; Revelation 21:2. Parallels to the church
triumphant: ·
Philadelphia gets
the New Name, New Jerusalem, Rev. 3:9-12. ·
The Lamb’s wife
represents the Holy City (heavenly church) on earth. ·
The bride must be
triumphant before she receives the Holy Spirit to give the final Midnight Cry
Loud Cry. ·
The bride awakens
all ten virgins. COL 406 and Matthew 25:1-5. ·
The 10 virgins
dwell near the brides house, not at it. COL. 405-6. ·
The “people of God”
guests are the ten virgins, the church militant. ·
The virgins that
go out to meet the bridegroom when the bride’s voice awakens all ten of them
(COL 405-6), are the guests, not the bride. If guests they cannot be represented
as the bride. ·
The bride is the
Holy Woman that is married. Her children are the 10 virgins of the church
militant. ·
The bride is the
144,000, because she is Philadelphian, because she is made pillars in the
Temple and only the 144,000 go into the Temple. EW, 19, and Rev. 3:10-12. It would
appear from the following statement that true reformers are written
(registered in the church of the firstborn in heaven: “"Characteristics of
True Reformers.--Here are given the characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear the banner of the third
angel's message, those who avow themselves God's commandment-keeping
people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in the sight of all the
universe, in building up the old waste places. Who is it that calls them, The
repairers of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is God. Their names are registered [written--Heb.
12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations
of many generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 4,
1151. · True
Reformers, the church triumphant, bear (giver) the third angel’s message.
They (as the voice of the bride) give the final Midnight Cry to the churches
and the world. · True
Reformers are God’s commandment-keeping people who build up the old waste
places. Commandment-keeping people are not the church militant. They are the
church triumphant on earth that is united in covenant relationship to Christ
and the church in heaven. · The bride
that is brought into covenant relationship is defined in Ezekiel 20:34-38.
The rebels are shaken out of the kingdom of God (Matt. 13) by her. · True Reformers are registered in the church in heaven, Zion (Sion),
Heb. 12:22, 23. · True Reformers will constitute the 144,000, who are found blameless
BEFORE Christ comes. Their characters are formed before He comes. We are instructed to
strive to be one of the 144,000, the blameless church on earth which is found
blameless (without fault) before Christ comes, Rev. 14:1-4, the church
triumphant, because they have to be triumphant in order to receive the Holy
Spirit to give the Loud Cry—so if we are instructed to strive to be one of
the 144,000 and they don’t exist on earth as the church triumphant, then we
would have to strive to be part of an entity that does not exist. Dear brother
Marko, I and many other folk believe the above evidence is conclusive and
irrefutable. If you don’t, I kindly agree to disagree. I won’t be the least
offended if the entire forum should agree with you. I cannot. But I still value
you as a brother in Christ and don’t want to think less of you because you
disagree with my findings. Please return the favor if you can. To me, it is
clear that the church must triumph on earth before she enters heaven. The
wheat and tares are not separated in the church militants until the harvest,
but the barley bride is a different entity from the church militants. She may
member with them and come to their aid if they will accept her True Reformer
aid, but most of them wont. It would be impossible for her to unite with the corrupt and remain
pure: "It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to
unite with those who are corrupt, and still remain pure. (II Corinthians
6:14-15 quoted). God and Christ and the heavenly host would have men know
that if he unites with the corrupt he will become corrupt." E. G. White,
Review and Herald, Vol. 4, p. 137. God bless, Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Marko
Leone Sent:
Saturday, February 27, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Brother Marko Responds Again Hello Brother Ron I am numbering my responses to make it
easier for you to reply. God bless. ----------------- Ron responds: Dear Brother Marko, Thank you for your response. First, I will ask a few questions
and make a few statements based on your response: You said: “the Angels of Heaven = The
Church Triumphant = Church in Heaven = God (indirectly)” · So I would conclude
that you are saying that the Church Triumphant in Heaven is constituted of
angels only. Right? No. 1 I have never
claimed that the church triumphant consists of angels ONLY. This is a gross
misrepresentation of the view I shared, and was first perpetrated by this
Brother James King in his response of https://omega77.tripod.com/markoresponse3.htm. If he and you
would have read carefully https://omega77.tripod.com/markoresponse1.htm you would have
seen that from the start I have said, quote: bro_marko: the church triumphant is the church IN
heaven...and according to the SOP comprised of all the inhabitans
of HEAVEN...angels, seraphims, cherubims, Moses, Enoch, Elijah.....BUT NOBODY here on
earth....there is no proof for that...we here on earth ARE ALL CHURCH
MILITANT · How do members of
the church militant become members of the Church Triumphant if it is
constituted only of angels? No. 2 Again I have never advocated that the
church triumphant is constituted ONLY of angels. So it makes no sense for me
to write a response to this. · You said in
another post that the church in heaven consisted of Moses, Elijah etc. Are
they angels? No. 3 · Do you see no
Church Triumphant on earth at any time? No. 4 This is a very important and
crucial question, and so please allow me to answer it very carefully.
Understand, that when I mention the church militant I am NOT talking about
the corporate GC-SDA, for they were once the church militant, but I don’t
believe they are that corporately anymore. Still, there is NO earthly church
triumphant whatsoever in existence yet, for the following reasons: a.) Until the end
of probationary time God’s living church upon earth is the church
militant “The message that has been borne by those
who have proclaimed the church to be Babylon, has made the impression that
God has no church upon earth. Has God no living church? He
has a church, but it is the church militant, not the church
triumphant. We are sorry that there are defective members, that there are
tares amid the wheat. Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto
a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while
men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
. . . So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not
thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto
them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then
that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow
together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will
say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares,
and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my
barn." {Ellen G. White, Review
and Herald, August 29, 1893 par. 8,9} “Let every one who
is seeking to live a Christian life, remember that the church militant is
not the church triumphant. Those who are carnally minded will be found in
the church. They are to be pitied more than blamed. The
church is not to be judged as sustaining these characters, though they be
found within her borders. Should the church expel them, the very ones
who found fault with their presence there, would blame the church for sending
them adrift in the world; they would claim that they were treated
unmercifully. It may be that in the church there are those who are
cold, proud, haughty, and unchristian, but you need not associate with this
class. There are many who are warm-hearted, who are self-denying,
self-sacrificing, who would, were it required, lay down their lives to save
souls. Jesus saw the bad and the good in church relationship, and said,
"Let both grow together until the harvest." {Ellen White, Fundamentals
of Christian Education, p. 294, par. 2, emphasis added}
{Ellen G. White, Review
and Herald, September 12, 1893 par. 19, emphasis added} “The tares and the
wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the
end of probationary time.” {Ellen G. White, Christ’s
Object Lessons, p. 71, par. 3, emphasis added} b.) the church triumphant does NOT come
into existence until Jesus ceases His intercession for those who are upon the
earth “Jesus lives; he is
before the Father in the heavenly courts, making intercession for those
who are still upon the earth in the turmoil and strife of life; for
the church militant is not yet the church triumphant.” {Ellen G. White, Signs
of the Times, July 24, 1893, par. 5, emphasis added} c.) then AFTER “the work” is closed,
those proved faithful will become the church triumphant "The work is soon to close. The members of the
church militant who have proved faithful will become the church
triumphant.” {GCDB, January 29, 1893, par. 5} d.) and THEN we will be exempt from any
difficulties arising “When difficulties arise in any branch of the cause, as
they will, for the church militant is not the church triumphant, all
heaven is watching to see what will be the course of those who are entrusted
with sacred responsibilities.” {PC 141.4} · What about
Philadelphia in 1844? That church was not faulted for one thing. Would you
say that was a church triumphant? No. 5 – I agree with you that the church of
Philadelphia was not faulted for one thing – I agree with you that it is representing
the Bride, the 144,000 – I agree with you that they will be made
pillars (leaders/teachers/priests in the temple)
· The church in
heaven (Heb. 12:22, 23) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion [Zion], and
unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an
innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly
and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made
perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to
the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Heb.
12:22-24. · You said the church
in heaven is the church triumphant constituted of ANGELS ONLY. No. 6 Again, I never claimed that. Please see
No. 1. I find from Scripture that the church in heaven (Zion—Sion)
consists of: 1. God, Jesus. 2. An innumerable company of angels.
These are the angels who minister to the earthly bride, Zion, the earthly
representative of the church in heaven. 3. The general assembly and church of
the firstborn which are written there. 4. The spirits of just men made perfect
who now enter there by faith, EW, 260, last paragraph. These are those who
enter the Most Holy Place by faith, now. EW 255. 5. It would appear from this statement
that true reformers are written (registered in the church of the firstborn in
heaven. “"Characteristics of True Reformers.--Here are given the
characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear the banner of
the third angel's message, those who avow themselves God's
commandment-keeping people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in
the sight of all the universe, in building up the old waste places. Who is it
that calls them, The repairers of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell
in? It is God. Their names are registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in
heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations of many
generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol.
4, 1151. While for some reason you chose to totally ignore the part of
the weight of evidence I furnished, I will deal directly with yours and
provide even more. One could “prove” most anything he/she wished by taking
selected “proof texts” or selected “proof statements” from the Bible, and/or
the Spirit of Prophecy. I am going to deal with qualifying statements from
Scripture which you fail to do. You deal only with the Spirit of Prophecy and
not all the evidence from that source. I agree that if you take only the part of the weight of
evidence you deal with, you are correct. No. 7 But we are to take all of the weight of evidence, to wit: 1. Weight of Evidence Formula: "1.
Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible
2. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by diligent application
and study 3. Nothing revealed in Scripture can or will be hid from those who
ask in faith, not wavering 4. To understand doctrine, bring all the
scriptures together on the subject you wish to know, then let every word have
its proper influence and if you can form your theory without a contradiction,
you cannot be in error 5. Scripture must be its own expositor, [interpreter]
since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound to me, and
he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his
sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed, or
wisdom is my rule, and not the Bible." E.G. White, Second Advent
Review and Herald, 11-25-84, pr. 24. No. 8 I believe there is stark evidence to support the reality of
two churches always existing concomitantly. There is clear evidence of a
bride church and a guest church. The bride church is the “barley” (first crop
which ripened) church triumphant and the guest church is the “wheat” church
militant, which are bridesmaidens of the bride. Please reconcile the following additional evidence with your
few statements which by far do not constitute all of the weight of
evidence: "The people of God, symbolized by a holy woman and her
children, were represented as greatly in the minority. In the last days only
a remnant still existed. Of these John speaks as they 'which keep the
commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." E. G.
White, Signs of the Times, Nov. 1, 1899, and Seventh-day
Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 7, p. 972. The Church Triumphant Zion From Scripture—Who is the Holy
Woman? Isaiah 62:1-5 answers that question. Isaiah 62
· The people of God
constitute His church militant, the bridesmaid guests—GC 427. · The bride is the
church triumphant, Zion, the New Jerusalem, who has earthly representatives,
and the bride is the earthly representatives of the New Jerusalem, Zion, the
heavenly church. GC 426-7. · There is a holy
woman and her children. The Holy Woman, Zion, is the Mother bride. The bridesmaidens are the guests at the wedding feast. · The holy woman is,
the bride that is married, is Zion, Isaiah 62:1-5. · Zion has children
(sons and daughters), verses 5 and 11 respectively. No. 9 – I agree with you that the bride is a
different entity than the guest people of God – I agree with you that the bride is
Zion, the representative of the kingdom – I agree with you that the other party
is/are the daughters/bridemaidens of Zion But again from the references you cited
(GC 426, 427) I can see no evidence whatsoever that mentions
the church triumphant being the bride/zion/new jerusalem. There is no mentioning of the triumphant in
these pages establishing this. You are just reading into the text what you
already believe in your own mind, i.e. whenever you see 144,000 or bride you
IMMEDIATELY THINK “church triumphant”. But there is no link in the SOP
whatsoever to the words “triumph”, “triumphant”, “triumphing”, “church
triumphant” or any other double or triple step parallelism I know of. And
until you cannot produce that, I have to continue to label this simply your
own private interpretation. Please therefore show that this is not merely
your private interpretation by bringing forth some deductive
evidence/parallelisms connecting to these above mentioned keywords. I will be as totally fair as I can possibly be by presenting
more evidence which at first, of and by itself, will support your belief on
this issue of the church triumphant. Here is that evidence: The Church Militant Is Imperfect The church militant is not the
church triumphant, and earth is not heaven. The church is composed of erring,
imperfect men and women, who are but learners in the school of Christ, to be
trained, disciplined, educated, for this life and for the future, immortal
life.--ST Jan. 4, 1883. {LDE 61.2} Some people seem to think that
upon entering the church they will have their expectations fulfilled, and
meet only with those who are pure and perfect. They are zealous in their
faith, and when they see faults in church members, they say, "We left
the world in order to have no association with evil characters, but the evil
is here also;" and they ask, as did the servants in the parable,
"From whence then hath it tares?" But we need not be thus
disappointed, for the Lord has not warranted us in coming to the conclusion
that the church is perfect; and all our zeal will not be successful in making
the church militant as pure as the church triumphant.--TM 47 (1893). {LDE
61.3} The Church Triumphant Will Be Faithful and Christlike The work is soon to close. The
members of the church militant who have proved faithful will become the
church triumphant.--Ev 707 (1892). {LDE 62.1} The life of Christ was a life
charged with a divine message of the love of God, and He longed intensely to
impart this love to others in rich measure. Compassion beamed from His
countenance, and His conduct was characterized by grace, humility, truth, and
love. Every member of His church militant must manifest the same
qualities, if he would join the church triumphant.--FE 179 (1891)
{LDE 62.2} Ron’s comments: First, I am going to quote Revelation 3:7-13. I will juxtapose
those verses with Isaiah 62, for important emphasis. And then I will quote a
portion from The Great Controversy, 426, 427. Lights should
begin to go on: 7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write;
These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of
David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man
openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open
door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept
my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of
the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie;
behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know
that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my
patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come
upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold,
I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy
crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the
temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will
write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which
is new Jerusalem,which
cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my
new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit
saith unto the churches. Rev. 3:7-13. Isaiah 62
"The marriage represents the reception by Christ of His
kingdom. The Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which is the
capital and representative of the kingdom, is called 'the bride, the
Lamb's wife.' Said the angel to John: 'Come hither, I will show thee
the bride, the Lamb's wife.' 'He carried me away in the spirit,' says the
prophet, 'and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending
out of heaven from God.' Revelation 21:9, 10. Clearly, then, the
bride represents the Holy City, and the virgins that go out to
meet the bridegroom are a symbol of the church [militant]. No. 10 Again, just writing MILITANT in brackets
is not enough! How do you know that this is the militant? I would even almost
agree with you on this. But you need to have deductive proof for this and be
more precise. Is this the foolish virgins only. The wise virgins only. Or
both the wise and foolish virgins together and why. And whatever you believe
it is, please provide a linkage/parallelism to “militant” or “church
militant” in the SOP. ADDED NOTE: You kind of answered
this two paragraphs below. You believe its both the
foolish and the wise virgins. The wheat and the tare church. Which all is the
same as the church militant. In this then I would agree again with you. In the Revelation the people of God are said to be the
guests at the marriage supper. Revelation 19:9. If guests, they
cannot be represented also as the bride...He will receive the New
Jerusalem, the capital of His kingdom, 'prepared as a bride adorned for
her husband.'" E. G. White, The Great Controversy,
426, 427. · The confusion is
due to a failure of most to distinguish between the faithful
(barley—firstfruits to ripen in Judea) bride of every generation and the
church militant, the wheat and tare co-ed church—the ten virgins bridesmaids. · We were told to
strive to be one of the 144,000. The 144,000 is the church triumphant. They
are blameless, Rev. 14:1-4. There have been faithful members, true reformers
in every generation. The church of Philadelphia circa 1st century A.D.
is a case in point. The faithful reformers of every succeeding generation
constitute another case in point. No. 11 Again the identification of the church
triumphant with the 144,000 is your private interpretation. Just to go by
“exclusion of the 2 options” and assume the opposite is not good reasoning.
Just because something is not black, it does not follow that it is white.
It maybe but maybe not. So this is why I am asking of you to produce
positive, affirmative, deductive proof of a linkage/parallelism of the
144,000 to the keywords “triumph”, “triumphant” or “church triumphant”. · Would all the
faithful of every generation be excluded from being one of the 144,000 just
because they were not born in the last generation? No. 12 I don’t understand what this question has
to do with the definition of the church triumphant...maybe you can explain
more what you mean. · Would the disciples
be one of the 144,000, since they are referred to as the bride of Christ
in Desire of Ages, 179? No. 13 Haven’t studied this enough yet...so
cannot answer you now. · Isaiah 62 says Zion
is the bride that is married. The bride gets the New Name, New Jerusalem. She
is Philadelphian. No. 14 Agree with that. · The voice of the
bride awakens the ten virgins guests, to wit: "Lingering near [not at] the bride's house are ten
young women robed in white. Each carries a lighted lamp and a small
flagon for oil. All are anxiously watching for the appearance of the
bridegroom. But there is a delay [since 1844]. Hour after hour passes the
watchers become weary and fall asleep. At midnight the cry is heard, 'Behold,
the bridegroom cometh go ye out to meet him.' The sleepers [all ten slept
Matt. 25:5], suddenly awaking, spring to their feet. They see the procession
moving on, bright with torches and glad with music. They hear the
voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride. The
ten maidens seize their lamps and begin to trim them, in haste to go forth,
But five have neglected to fill their flasks with oil [character]. They did
not anticipate so long a delay, and they have not prepared for the
emergence." E. G. White, Christ's Object Lessons, pp.
405, 406. How many of the ten virgin bridesmaids sleep? Matthew 25
· It should be clear
that the bride (Zion) is different from the 10 virgin bridesmaids (guests)
that the voice of God and the voice of the bride awaken. No. 15 Agree with everything above... · Thus, the church
triumphant, the bride, like the disciples, is the procession that awakens the
church militant, the bridesmaids guests. No. 16 But here again
Brother Ron there is no “Thus” since there is nothing that makes the church
triumphant follow all of a sudden from what you said. This is again simply
your private a priori interpretation whenever you see 144,000 or bride
or philadephia or Zion, FOR WHICH I AM YET
WAITING TO SEE ANY DEDUCTIVE LINKAGE/PARALLELISM PROOF connected with the
words “triumph”, “triumphant”, “triumphing” or “church triumphant”. So
far I have not seen any and thus keep saying that it’s your private
interpretation. · In order for the
bride to awaken the guests, she must be formed ON EARTH, before she gives the
final awakening cry, the final Midnight Cry. · The bride, True
Reformers, is called (awakened by God). Then she awakens the guests. · The bride
(Zion—Sion) is married in the Most Holy BEFORE Jesus comes. This is the
church triumphant on earth BEFORE Jesus comes. No. 17 Again, constant a
priori interpreting here. No deductive proof given whatsoever for this up
until now. · Every generation
has had its bride just as the disciples were the bride of Christ, DA 179. · The bride of every
generation is somehow regenerated for the final generation. Philadelphia
(circa 1st century A.D.) was told that she would be kept through the
time of trouble. Ellen White corroborates that very verse. · The church
triumphant, the bride of every generation, has come to the aid of the various
church militants as True Reformers, reforming the church in every succeeding
generation, DA 232. “Jesus sent His angels to direct the minds of the disappointed
ones to the most holy place, where He had gone to cleanse the sanctuary and
make a special atonement for Israel. Jesus told the angels that all who found
Him would understand the work which He was to perform. I saw that
while Jesus was in the most holy place He would be married to the New
Jerusalem; and after His work should be accomplished in the holiest,
He would descend to the earth in kingly power and take to Himself the
precious ones who had patiently waited His return. {EW 251.1} “After Jesus opened the door of the most holy, the light of
the Sabbath was seen, and the people of God were tested, as the children of
Israel were tested anciently, to see if they would keep God's law. I
saw the third angel pointing upward, showing the disappointed ones the way to
the holiest of the heavenly sanctuary. As they by faith enter the most
holy, they find Jesus, and hope and joy spring up anew. I saw them looking
back, reviewing the past, from the proclamation of the second advent of
Jesus, down through their experience to the passing of the time in 1844. They
see their disappointment explained, and joy and certainty again animate them.
The third angel has lighted up the past, the present, and the future, and
they know that God has indeed led them by His mysterious providence. {EW
254.2} “It was represented to me
that the remnant followed Jesus into the most holy place and
beheld the ark and the mercy seat, and were captivated with their glory.
Jesus then raised the cover of the ark, and lo! the tables of stone, with the
ten commandments written upon them. They trace down the lively oracles, but
start back with trembling when they see the fourth commandment among the ten
holy precepts, with a brighter light shining upon it than upon the other
nine, and a halo of glory all around it. They find nothing there informing
them that the Sabbath has been abolished, or changed to the first day of the
week. The commandment reads as when spoken by the voice of God in solemn and
awful grandeur upon the mount, while the lightnings flashed and the thunders
rolled; it is the same as when written with His own finger on the tables of
stone: "Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy
work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." They are
amazed as they behold the care taken of the ten commandments. They see them
placed close by Jehovah, overshadowed and protected by His holiness. They see
that they have been trampling upon the fourth commandment of the decalogue, and have observed a day handed down by the
heathen and papists, instead of the day sanctified by Jehovah. They humble
themselves before God and mourn over their past transgressions.” {EW 255.1} Conclusion Dear Brother Marko, when you are able to resolve ALL THIS
WEIGHT OF EVIDENCE so that NOTHING CONTRADICTS, then you will have arrived at
the truth concerning the church triumphant versus the church militants of the
world. I have responded to your points, and I kindly request that you
take my points ONE BY ONE and respond to them. That is the only way you will
ever grasp what I am presenting. I did it for you, now please return the
favor. Sincerely in Christ’s love, Ron Beaulieu |