Response to Brother Marko

Relative to the Church Triumphant

On Earth

 

Part 5

 

 

 

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Dear Brother Marko,

 

I can now perceive that unless the actual words “church triumphant” are spelled out and specifically attributed to Bible and Spirit of Prophecy statements I give, you will never consent that they refer to the church triumphant on earth. Therefore, this will be my last attempt to reason with you, no offense intended.

 

The Bible nor Ellen White mention the word Trinity either. So if I used your pretext, I would not believe in a Trinity and you could never convince me that there is a Trinity because Ellen White and the KJV don’t mention the word Trinity one time.

 

You wrote: a.) Until the end of probationary time God’s living church upon earth is the church militant”

 

Ron responds: The Bible gives us license to come and reason together. Thus, I reason, that the following items are evidence for an “invisible” church triumphant here on earth BEFORE the end of probationary time:

 

1.    The disciples as the bride of Christ. Desire of Ages, 179. I believe the disciples and their followers were saved, so that would be a church triumphant on earth to me.

2.    The church of Philadelphia, circa A.D. 27 and on, being extant in every succeeding generation. Since that church is not faulted for anything, I reason that the church of Philadelphia is a clear example of the church triumphant. All seven messages to the seven churches apply to the end of time. Acts of the Apostles, p. 585.

3.    Philadelphia is made pillars (leaders) in the Temple of heaven, and only the 144,000 enter that Temple, EW 19, so I believe Philadelphia is a church triumphant that gives the final Loud Cry BEFORE the second coming.

4.    True Reformers in every succeeding generation. Desire of Ages, 232.

5.    True Reformers who are registered in heaven. Quote below.

6.    In order for the voice of the bride to awaken the ten virgin guests, Christ’s object lessons, 405-6, she has to receive the Holy Spirit similarly as did the disciples on the Day of Pentecost. So she is a clear example of the Bride, a church triumphant, being in place BEFORE the final harvest call.

7.    I believe the following statement does not refer to any church militant, but rather to “faithful souls” who are on earth, but brought into covenant relationship with Christ, and the church in heaven: "From the beginning, faithful souls have constituted the church on earth. In every age the Lord has had His watchmen, who have borne a faithful testimony to the generation in which they lived. These sentinels gave the message of warning; and when they were called to lay off their armor, others took up the work. God brought these witnesses into covenant relation with Himself, uniting the church on earth (faithful souls that are yielded to Christ) with the church in Heaven. He has sent forth His angels to minister to His church, (faithful souls that are yielded to Christ), and the gates of hell have not been able to prevail against His people." Acts of the Apostles, p. 11.

8.    Zion, the Holy Woman that is married in Isaiah 62. I believe she is married before Christ comes and that she is referred to as the voice of the bride in COL, 406, before the final Loud Cry Midnight Cry.

9.    The Holy Woman and her children statement by Ellen White: "The people of God, symbolized by a holy woman and her children, were represented as greatly in the minority. In the last days only a remnant still existed. Of these John speaks as they 'which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." E. G. White, Signs of the Times,  Nov. 1, 1899, and Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary,  vol. 7, p. 972. 

10.  The above statement refers to the church on earth as well,   because it says they are in the minority as a remnant. The Holy Woman is the bride who makes the final call of COL. 405-6. She is spoken of in that reference as being the voice of the bride just before she makes the final Loud Cry call. Thus, she is an invisible church triumphant on earth. She is the 144,000 Philadelphians.

11.      I wrote:

The Church Triumphant Zion From Scripture—Who is the Holy Woman? Isaiah 62:1-5 answers that question. 

Isaiah 62


1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. 4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. 5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. 6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, 7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. 8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured: 9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness. 10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people. 11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. 

The people of God constitute His church militant, the bridesmaid guests—GC 427.

The bride is the church triumphant, Zion, the New Jerusalem, who has earthly representatives, and the bride is the earthly representatives of the New Jerusalem, Zion, the heavenly church. GC 426-7.

There is a holy woman and her children. The Holy Woman, Zion, is the Mother bride. The bridesmaidens are the guests at the wedding feast.

The holy woman is, the bride that is married, is Zion, Isaiah 62:1-5.

Zion has children (sons and daughters), verses 5 and 11 respectively. 


Brother Marko responded. No. 9

– I agree with you that the bride is a different entity than the guest people of God

– I agree with you that the bride is Zion, the representative of the kingdom

– I agree with you that the other party is/are the daughters/bridemaidens of Zion

But again from the references you cited (GC 426, 427) I can see no evidence whatsoever that mentions the church triumphant being the bride/zion/new jerusalem. There is no mentioning of the triumphant in these pages establishing this. You are just reading into the text what you already believe in your own mind, i.e. whenever you see 144,000 or bride you IMMEDIATELY THINK "church triumphant". But there is no link in the SOP whatsoever to the words "triumph", "triumphant", "triumphing", "church triumphant" or any other double or triple step parallelism I know of. And until you cannot produce that, I have to continue to label this simply your own private interpretation. Please therefore show that this is not merely your private interpretation by bringing forth some deductive evidence/parallelisms connecting to these above mentioned keywords.

 

Ron responds: I will cite GC 426 and 427 again and draw a direct parallelism:

 

“The marriage represents the reception by Christ of His kingdom. The Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which is the capital and representative of the kingdom, is called "the bride, the Lamb's wife." Said the angel to John: "Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." "He carried me away in the spirit," says the prophet, "and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God." Revelation 21:9, 10. Clearly, then, the bride represents the Holy City, and the virgins that go out to meet the bridegroom are a symbol of the church. In the Revelation the people of God are said to be the guests at the marriage supper. Revelation 19:9. If guests, they cannot be represented also as the bride. Christ, as stated by the prophet Daniel, will receive from the Ancient of Days in heaven, "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom;" He will receive the New Jerusalem, the capital of His kingdom, "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." Daniel 7:14; Revelation 21:2.

 

Parallels to the church triumphant:

 

·       Philadelphia gets the New Name, New Jerusalem, Rev. 3:9-12.

·       The Lamb’s wife represents the Holy City (heavenly church) on earth.

·       The bride must be triumphant before she receives the Holy Spirit to give the final Midnight Cry Loud Cry.

·       The bride awakens all ten virgins. COL 406 and Matthew 25:1-5.

·       The 10 virgins dwell near the brides house, not at it. COL. 405-6.

·       The “people of God” guests are the ten virgins, the church militant.

·       The virgins that go out to meet the bridegroom when the bride’s voice awakens all ten of them (COL 405-6), are the guests, not the bride. If guests they cannot be represented as the bride.

·       The bride is the Holy Woman that is married. Her children are the 10 virgins of the church militant.

·       The bride is the 144,000, because she is Philadelphian, because she is made pillars in the Temple and only the 144,000 go into the Temple. EW, 19, and Rev. 3:10-12.

 

It would appear from the following statement that true reformers are written (registered in the church of the firstborn in heaven:

 

"Characteristics of True Reformers.--Here are given the characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear the banner of the third angel's message, those who avow themselves God's commandment-keeping people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in the sight of all the universe, in building up the old waste places. Who is it that calls them, The repairers of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is God. Their names are registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations of many generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1151.

 

·       True Reformers, the church triumphant, bear (giver) the third angel’s message. They (as the voice of the bride) give the final Midnight Cry to the churches and the world.

·       True Reformers are God’s commandment-keeping people who build up the old waste places. Commandment-keeping people are not the church militant. They are the church triumphant on earth that is united in covenant relationship to Christ and the church in heaven.

·       The bride that is brought into covenant relationship is defined in Ezekiel 20:34-38. The rebels are shaken out of the kingdom of God (Matt. 13) by her.

·       True Reformers are registered in the church in heaven, Zion (Sion), Heb. 12:22, 23.

·       True Reformers will constitute the 144,000, who are found blameless BEFORE Christ comes. Their characters are formed before He comes.

 

We are instructed to strive to be one of the 144,000, the blameless church on earth which is found blameless (without fault) before Christ comes, Rev. 14:1-4, the church triumphant, because they have to be triumphant in order to receive the Holy Spirit to give the Loud Cry—so if we are instructed to strive to be one of the 144,000 and they don’t exist on earth as the church triumphant, then we would have to strive to be part of an entity that does not exist.

 

Dear brother Marko,

 

I and many other folk believe the above evidence is conclusive and irrefutable. If you don’t, I kindly agree to disagree. I won’t be the least offended if the entire forum should agree with you. I cannot. But I still value you as a brother in Christ and don’t want to think less of you because you disagree with my findings. Please return the favor if you can. To me, it is clear that the church must triumph on earth before she enters heaven. The wheat and tares are not separated in the church militants until the harvest, but the barley bride is a different entity from the church militants. She may member with them and come to their aid if they will accept her True Reformer aid, but most of them wont.

 

It would be impossible for her to unite with the corrupt and remain pure:

 

"It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to unite with those who are corrupt, and still remain pure. (II Corinthians 6:14-15 quoted). God and Christ and the heavenly host would have men know that if he unites with the corrupt he will become corrupt." E. G. White, Review and Herald, Vol. 4, p. 137.

 

God bless,

 

Ron

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Marko Leone

To: rsbeauli@telusplanet.net

Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 4:39 PM

Subject: Brother Marko Responds Again

 

Hello Brother Ron

 

I am numbering my responses to make it easier for you to reply. God bless.

 

-----------------

 

Ron responds:

 

Dear Brother Marko,

 

Thank you for your response. First, I will ask a few questions and make a few statements based on your response:

 

You said: “the Angels of Heaven = The Church Triumphant = Church in Heaven = God (indirectly)”

 

·       So I would conclude that you are saying that the Church Triumphant in Heaven is constituted of angels only. Right?

 


No. 1  

I have never claimed that the church triumphant consists of angels ONLY. This is a gross misrepresentation of the view I shared, and was first perpetrated by this Brother James King in his response of http://omega77.tripod.com/markoresponse3.htm.

 

If he and you would have read carefully http://omega77.tripod.com/markoresponse1.htm you would have seen that from the start I have said, quote:

 

bro_marko: the church triumphant is the church IN heaven...and according to the SOP comprised of all the inhabitans of HEAVEN...angels, seraphims, cherubims, Moses, Enoch, Elijah.....BUT NOBODY here on earth....there is no proof for that...we here on earth ARE ALL CHURCH MILITANT


·       How do members of the church militant become members of the Church Triumphant if it is constituted only of angels?


No. 2

Again I have never advocated that the church triumphant is constituted ONLY of angels. So it makes no sense for me to write a response to this.


 

 

·       You said in another post that the church in heaven consisted of Moses, Elijah etc. Are they angels?


No. 3
This is again based upon the false assumption that I’ve ever advocated that it consists of angels ONLY. Of course they are not angels! They are AS the angels and HIGHER than the angels, but they are NOT angels. 


·       Do you see no Church Triumphant on earth at any time?

 


No. 4

This is a very important and crucial question, and so please allow me to answer it very carefully. Understand, that when I mention the church militant I am NOT talking about the corporate GC-SDA, for they were once the church militant, but I don’t believe they are that corporately anymore. Still, there is NO earthly church triumphant whatsoever in existence yet, for the following reasons:

 

a.) Until the end of probationary time God’s living church upon earth is the church militant 

 

“The message that has been borne by those who have proclaimed the church to be Babylon, has made the impression that God has no church upon earth. Has God no living church? He has a church, but it is the church militant, not the church triumphant. We are sorry that there are defective members, that there are tares amid the wheat. Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. . . . So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn."

{Ellen G. White, Review and Herald, August 29, 1893 par. 8,9}

“Let every one who is seeking to live a Christian life, remember that the church militant is not the church triumphant. Those who are carnally minded will be found in the church. They are to be pitied more than blamed. The church is not to be judged as sustaining these characters, though they be found within her borders. Should the church expel them, the very ones who found fault with their presence there, would blame the church for sending them adrift in the world; they would claim that they were treated unmercifully. It may be that in the church there are those who are cold, proud, haughty, and unchristian, but you need not associate with this class. There are many who are warm-hearted, who are self-denying, self-sacrificing, who would, were it required, lay down their lives to save souls. Jesus saw the bad and the good in church relationship, and said, "Let both grow together until the harvest."

{Ellen White, Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 294, par. 2, emphasis added}


“The truth is a sanctifying power; but the church militant is not the church triumphant. There are tares among the wheat. 'Wilt thou then that we gather them up?' was the question of the servant; but the master answered, 'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.' The gospel net draws not only good fish, but bad ones as well, and the Lord only knows who are his.” 

{Ellen G. White, Review and Herald, September 12, 1893 par. 19, emphasis added}

 

“The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time.” 

{Ellen G. White, Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 71, par. 3, emphasis added}

 

b.) the church triumphant does NOT come into existence until Jesus ceases His intercession for those who are upon the earth

 

“Jesus lives; he is before the Father in the heavenly courts, making intercession for those who are still upon the earth in the turmoil and strife of life; for the church militant is not yet the church triumphant.

{Ellen G. White, Signs of the Times, July 24, 1893, par. 5, emphasis added}

c.) then AFTER “the work” is closed, those proved faithful will become the church triumphant

 

"The work is soon to close. The members of the church militant who have proved faithful will become the church triumphant.” {GCDB, January 29, 1893, par. 5}

 

d.) and THEN we will be exempt from any difficulties arising

 

“When difficulties arise in any branch of the cause, as they will, for the church militant is not the church triumphant, all heaven is watching to see what will be the course of those who are entrusted with sacred responsibilities.” {PC 141.4}


 

·       What about Philadelphia in 1844? That church was not faulted for one thing. Would you say that was a church triumphant?

 


No. 5

– I agree with you that the church of Philadelphia was not faulted for one thing

– I agree with you that it is representing the Bride, the 144,000

– I agree with you that they will be made pillars (leaders/teachers/priests in the temple)
– I agree with you that it coexists together with Laodicea until the end


But I disagree with you that it is the same as the church triumphant or a church triumphant in/for its generation. There is just no such deductive SOP linkage to the terms “triumphant” “triumph” or “church triumphant” or any other parallelism I know of that could establish such a thing. Until you don’t produce this deductive evidence, and are able to explain how this can possibly be the case, when the quotes shared say, that the church triumphant does not come into existence until the end of probationary time and Christ ceasing his intercession work, I cannot believe this to be the truth, but merely your private interpretation.


·       The church in heaven (Heb. 12:22, 23)

 

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion [Zion], and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Heb. 12:22-24.

 

·       You said the church in heaven is the church triumphant constituted of ANGELS ONLY. 


No. 6

Again, I never claimed that. Please see No. 1.


I find from Scripture that the church in heaven (Zion—Sion) consists of:

1.    God, Jesus.

2.    An innumerable company of angels. These are the angels who minister to the earthly bride, Zion, the earthly representative of the church in heaven.

3.    The general assembly and church of the firstborn which are written there.

4.    The spirits of just men made perfect who now enter there by faith, EW, 260, last paragraph. These are those who enter the Most Holy Place by faith, now. EW 255.

5.    It would appear from this statement that true reformers are written (registered in the church of the firstborn in heaven. “"Characteristics of True Reformers.--Here are given the characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear the banner of the third angel's message, those who avow themselves God's commandment-keeping people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in the sight of all the universe, in building up the old waste places. Who is it that calls them, The repairers of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is God. Their names are registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations of many generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1151.

 

While for some reason you chose to totally ignore the part of the weight of evidence I furnished, I will deal directly with yours and provide even more. One could “prove” most anything he/she wished by taking selected “proof texts” or selected “proof statements” from the Bible, and/or the Spirit of Prophecy. I am going to deal with qualifying statements from Scripture which you fail to do. You deal only with the Spirit of Prophecy and not all the evidence from that source.

 

I agree that if you take only the part of the weight of evidence you deal with, you are correct. 

 


No. 7
Thanks. I appreciate your honesty. 


 

But we are to take all of the weight of evidence, to wit:

 

1.    Weight of Evidence Formula: "1. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible 2. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by diligent application and study 3. Nothing revealed in Scripture can or will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering 4. To understand doctrine, bring all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to know, then let every word have its proper influence and if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error 5. Scripture must be its own expositor, [interpreter] since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound to me, and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed, or wisdom is my rule, and not the Bible." E.G. White, Second Advent Review and Herald, 11-25-84, pr. 24.


No. 8
Of course I fully agree with this. But how do you expect me to present all the weight of the evidence in just 1 e-mail? Or respond to all the issues raised at once? I am just starting out in dialog with you, and as we progress from issue to issue, I will add and harmonize more weight to it, don’t worry...


 

I believe there is stark evidence to support the reality of two churches always existing concomitantly. There is clear evidence of a bride church and a guest church. The bride church is the “barley” (first crop which ripened) church triumphant and the guest church is the “wheat” church militant, which are bridesmaidens of the bride.

 

Please reconcile the following additional evidence with your few statements which by far do not constitute all of the weight of evidence:

 

"The people of God, symbolized by a holy woman and her children, were represented as greatly in the minority. In the last days only a remnant still existed. Of these John speaks as they 'which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." E. G. White, Signs of the Times,  Nov. 1, 1899, and Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary,  vol. 7, p. 972.

 

The Church Triumphant Zion From Scripture—Who is the Holy Woman? Isaiah 62:1-5 answers that question.

 

Isaiah 62


1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory:and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. 3Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. 4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. 5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. 6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, 7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. 8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured: 9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness. 10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people. 11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

 

·       The people of God constitute His church militant, the bridesmaid guests—GC 427.

·       The bride is the church triumphant, Zion, the New Jerusalem, who has earthly representatives, and the bride is the earthly representatives of the New Jerusalem, Zion, the heavenly church. GC 426-7.

·       There is a holy woman and her children. The Holy Woman, Zion, is the Mother bride. The bridesmaidens are the guests at the wedding feast.

·       The holy woman is, the bride that is married, is Zion, Isaiah 62:1-5.

·       Zion has children (sons and daughters), verses 5 and 11 respectively.

 


No. 9

– I agree with you that the bride is a different entity than the guest people of God

– I agree with you that the bride is Zion, the representative of the kingdom

– I agree with you that the other party is/are the daughters/bridemaidens of Zion

 

But again from the references you cited (GC 426, 427) I can see no evidence whatsoever that mentions the church triumphant being the bride/zion/new jerusalem. There is no mentioning of the triumphant in these pages establishing this. You are just reading into the text what you already believe in your own mind, i.e. whenever you see 144,000 or bride you IMMEDIATELY THINK “church triumphant”. But there is no link in the SOP whatsoever to the words “triumph”, “triumphant”, “triumphing”, “church triumphant” or any other double or triple step parallelism I know of. And until you cannot produce that, I have to continue to label this simply your own private interpretation. Please therefore show that this is not merely your private interpretation by bringing forth some deductive evidence/parallelisms connecting to these above mentioned keywords.


 

 

I will be as totally fair as I can possibly be by presenting more evidence which at first, of and by itself, will support your belief on this issue of the church triumphant. Here is that evidence:

 

The Church Militant Is Imperfect

 

     The church militant is not the church triumphant, and earth is not heaven. The church is composed of erring, imperfect men and women, who are but learners in the school of Christ, to be trained, disciplined, educated, for this life and for the future, immortal life.--ST Jan. 4, 1883. {LDE 61.2}

 

     Some people seem to think that upon entering the church they will have their expectations fulfilled, and meet only with those who are pure and perfect. They are zealous in their faith, and when they see faults in church members, they say, "We left the world in order to have no association with evil characters, but the evil is here also;" and they ask, as did the servants in the parable, "From whence then hath it tares?" But we need not be thus disappointed, for the Lord has not warranted us in coming to the conclusion that the church is perfect; and all our zeal will not be successful in making the church militant as pure as the church triumphant.--TM 47 (1893). {LDE 61.3}

 

The Church Triumphant Will Be Faithful and Christlike

 

     The work is soon to close. The members of the church militant who have proved faithful will become the church triumphant.--Ev 707 (1892). {LDE 62.1}

 

     The life of Christ was a life charged with a divine message of the love of God, and He longed intensely to impart this love to others in rich measure. Compassion beamed from His countenance, and His conduct was characterized by grace, humility, truth, and love. Every member of His church militant must manifest the same qualities, if he would join the church triumphant.--FE 179 (1891) {LDE 62.2}

 

Ron’s comments:

 

First, I am going to quote Revelation 3:7-13. I will juxtapose those verses with Isaiah 62, for important emphasis. And then I will quote a portion from The Great Controversy, 426, 427. Lights should begin to go on:

 

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem,which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Rev. 3:7-13.

 

Isaiah 62


1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory:and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. 3Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. 4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. 5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. 6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, 7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. 8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured: 9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness. 10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people. 11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

 

"The marriage represents the reception by Christ of His kingdom. The Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which is the capital and representative of the kingdom, is called 'the bride, the Lamb's wife.' Said the angel to John: 'Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.' 'He carried me away in the spirit,' says the prophet, 'and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.' Revelation 21:9, 10. Clearly, then, the bride represents the Holy City, and the virgins that go out to meet the bridegroom are a symbol of the church [militant]


No. 10

Again, just writing MILITANT in brackets is not enough! How do you know that this is the militant? I would even almost agree with you on this. But you need to have deductive proof for this and be more precise. Is this the foolish virgins only. The wise virgins only. Or both the wise and foolish virgins together and why. And whatever you believe it is, please provide a linkage/parallelism to “militant” or “church militant” in the SOP.

 

ADDED NOTE: You kind of answered this two paragraphs below. You believe its both the foolish and the wise virgins. The wheat and the tare church. Which all is the same as the church militant. In this then I would agree again with you.


In the Revelation the people of God are said to be the guests at the marriage supper. Revelation 19:9. If guests, they cannot be represented also as the bride...He will receive the New Jerusalem, the capital of His kingdom, 'prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.'" E. G. White, The Great Controversy,  426, 427.

 

 

·       The confusion is due to a failure of most to distinguish between the faithful (barley—firstfruits to ripen in Judea) bride of every generation and the church militant, the wheat and tare co-ed church—the ten virgins bridesmaids.

·       We were told to strive to be one of the 144,000. The 144,000 is the church triumphant. They are blameless, Rev. 14:1-4. There have been faithful members, true reformers in every generation. The church of Philadelphia circa 1st century A.D. is a case in point. The faithful reformers of every succeeding generation constitute another case in point.


No. 11

Again the identification of the church triumphant with the 144,000 is your private interpretation. Just to go by “exclusion of the 2 options” and assume the opposite is not good reasoning. Just because something is not black, it does not follow that it is white. It  maybe but maybe not. So this is why I am asking of you to produce positive, affirmative, deductive proof of a linkage/parallelism of the 144,000 to the keywords “triumph”, “triumphant” or “church triumphant”.


·       Would all the faithful of every generation be excluded from being one of the 144,000 just because they were not born in the last generation?


No. 12

I don’t understand what this question has to do with the definition of the church triumphant...maybe you can explain more what you mean.


 

·       Would the disciples be one of the 144,000, since they are referred to as the bride of Christ in Desire of Ages, 179?


No. 13

Haven’t studied this enough yet...so cannot answer you now.


 

·       Isaiah 62 says Zion is the bride that is married. The bride gets the New Name, New Jerusalem. She is Philadelphian.


No. 14

Agree with that.


 

·       The voice of the bride awakens the ten virgins guests, to wit:

 

"Lingering near [not at] the bride's house are ten young women robed in white. Each carries a lighted lamp and a small flagon for oil. All are anxiously watching for the appearance of the bridegroom. But there is a delay [since 1844]. Hour after hour passes the watchers become weary and fall asleep. At midnight the cry is heard, 'Behold, the bridegroom cometh go ye out to meet him.' The sleepers [all ten slept Matt. 25:5], suddenly awaking, spring to their feet. They see the procession moving on, bright with torches and glad with music.  They hear the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride.  The ten maidens seize their lamps and begin to trim them, in haste to go forth, But five have neglected to fill their flasks with oil [character]. They did not anticipate so long a delay, and they have not prepared for the emergence." E. G. White, Christ's Object Lessons,  pp. 405, 406.

 

How many of the ten virgin bridesmaids sleep?

 

 

Matthew 25


1 “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.” COL 405-6.

 

·       It should be clear that the bride (Zion) is different from the 10 virgin bridesmaids (guests) that the voice of God and the voice of the bride awaken.


No. 15

Agree with everything above...


 

·       Thus, the church triumphant, the bride, like the disciples, is the procession that awakens the church militant, the bridesmaids guests.


No. 16

But here again Brother Ron there is no “Thus” since there is nothing that makes the church triumphant follow all of a sudden from what you said. This is again simply your private a priori interpretation whenever you see 144,000 or bride or philadephia or Zion, FOR WHICH I AM YET WAITING TO SEE ANY DEDUCTIVE LINKAGE/PARALLELISM PROOF connected with the words “triumph”, “triumphant”, “triumphing” or “church triumphant”. So far I have not seen any and thus keep saying that it’s your private interpretation.


 

·       In order for the bride to awaken the guests, she must be formed ON EARTH, before she gives the final awakening cry, the final Midnight Cry.

·       The bride, True Reformers, is called (awakened by God). Then she awakens the guests.

·       The bride (Zion—Sion) is married in the Most Holy BEFORE Jesus comes. This is the church triumphant on earth BEFORE Jesus comes.


No. 17

Again, constant a priori interpreting here. No deductive proof given whatsoever for this up until now. 


 

·       Every generation has had its bride just as the disciples were the bride of Christ, DA 179.

·       The bride of every generation is somehow regenerated for the final generation. Philadelphia (circa 1st century A.D.) was told that she would be kept through the time of trouble. Ellen White corroborates that very verse.

·       The church triumphant, the bride of every generation, has come to the aid of the various church militants as True Reformers, reforming the church in every succeeding generation, DA 232.

 

“Jesus sent His angels to direct the minds of the disappointed ones to the most holy place, where He had gone to cleanse the sanctuary and make a special atonement for Israel. Jesus told the angels that all who found Him would understand the work which He was to perform. I saw that while Jesus was in the most holy place He would be married to the New Jerusalem; and after His work should be accomplished in the holiest, He would descend to the earth in kingly power and take to Himself the precious ones who had patiently waited His return. {EW 251.1}

 

“After Jesus opened the door of the most holy, the light of the Sabbath was seen, and the people of God were tested, as the children of Israel were tested anciently, to see if they would keep God's law. I saw the third angel pointing upward, showing the disappointed ones the way to the holiest of the heavenly sanctuary. As they by faith enter the most holy, they find Jesus, and hope and joy spring up anew. I saw them looking back, reviewing the past, from the proclamation of the second advent of Jesus, down through their experience to the passing of the time in 1844. They see their disappointment explained, and joy and certainty again animate them. The third angel has lighted up the past, the present, and the future, and they know that God has indeed led them by His mysterious providence. {EW 254.2}

 

     “It was represented to me that the remnant followed Jesus into the most holy place and beheld the ark and the mercy seat, and were captivated with their glory. Jesus then raised the cover of the ark, and lo! the tables of stone, with the ten commandments written upon them. They trace down the lively oracles, but start back with trembling when they see the fourth commandment among the ten holy precepts, with a brighter light shining upon it than upon the other nine, and a halo of glory all around it. They find nothing there informing them that the Sabbath has been abolished, or changed to the first day of the week. The commandment reads as when spoken by the voice of God in solemn and awful grandeur upon the mount, while the lightnings flashed and the thunders rolled; it is the same as when written with His own finger on the tables of stone: "Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." They are amazed as they behold the care taken of the ten commandments. They see them placed close by Jehovah, overshadowed and protected by His holiness. They see that they have been trampling upon the fourth commandment of the decalogue, and have observed a day handed down by the heathen and papists, instead of the day sanctified by Jehovah. They humble themselves before God and mourn over their past transgressions.” {EW 255.1}

 

Conclusion

 

Dear Brother Marko, when you are able to resolve ALL THIS WEIGHT OF EVIDENCE so that NOTHING CONTRADICTS, then you will have arrived at the truth concerning the church triumphant versus the church militants of the world.

 

I have responded to your points, and I kindly request that you take my points ONE BY ONE and respond to them. That is the only way you will ever grasp what I am presenting. I did it for you, now please return the favor.

 

Sincerely in Christ’s love,

 

Ron Beaulieu