Being Fair to Brother Marko

On the Church Triumphant,

Church Militant Issue

 

(Part 7)

 

 

 

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----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Beaulieu

To: AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 9:38 AM

Subject: Being Fair to Brother Marko

 

Brother Marko et all,

 

Sorry that I did not deal more specifically with your SOP statements regarding the church militant. I will attempt to do just that in this post.

 

Brother Marko has a valid point that even the church of Ezekiel 20:34-38, is militant until the close of probation. That is common sense. We are to be militant against sin and all opposing forces to truth. God has a church militant, but it is now debatable how a new movement that has removed God can qualify even as a church militant, for Ellen White said that only the presence of Christ can constitute a church. The Upward Look, 315.

 

The 144,000 will give the final Loud Cry. That is militancy! The 144,000 will shake all rebels out of the kingdom by their final warning message. That is militancy! But at the same time, they must be perfected BEFORE they are qualified to receive the outpouring of the Latter Rain Holy Spirit for giving the final Midnight Cry.

 

But even though the true church is militant until the close of probation, that does not mean that we are to remain joined to an apostate church until the close of probation. Ellen White clearly said that when a church becomes unfaithful to the work of the Lord, He can no longer use it, and He then chooses others.

 

Also, even though the true church is militant in checking error, spreading the gospel and causing the shaking out of the kingdom of God of the rebels, Ezekiel 20:34-38, we are to strive to become one of the 144,000, the church triumphant--THE CHURCH THAT TRIUMPHS.

 

There is no doubt that an “invisible” church triumphant qualified itself as such BEFORE the close of probation, because it is the voice of God AND THE VOICE OF THE BRIDE, that awakens the ten virgins, Christ’s Object Lessons, pp. 405-406. So it is only common sense and empiraclly discernable that the bride hath made herself ready in order to give that final Loud Cry, Midnight Cry to the world. Even though the bride does not get her final seal until after the final test of Jacob’s great time of trouble, during which she lives without an intercessor, she would still rather die than sin, says Ellen White.

 

The “invisible” church of the 144,000, is distinguished by their full agreement on all matters essential for salvation and their response to forbidden apostasy. They are in complete unity. They may not see the glory from the same facets on every point, but essentially they are in full unity. This is Ellen White’s view of the invisible church that triumphs. As the disciples of Christ, His bride (DA 179) put all differences away just before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to them on the Day of Pentecost, so the 144,000 will do the same just before they make the final Loud Cry call awakening all ten of the sleeping virgins, COL, 405, 406.

 

I fully agree with all Brother Marko's SOP statements below. But I do not believe that we should regard gross apostasies as mere difficulties and that faults and defects (such as we all have) are in the same category as gross, strictly forbidden apostasy. Correct me if I err brother Marko, but it seems to me that you believe we are to remain members of the church no matter what it does--until the close of probation. Is that true? I'm just asking, not accusing.

 

If the wheat can dwell with the tares until the close of probation UNCONDITIONALLY:

  • Why did Ellen White condone the Jews worshipping at home during the Jews' sojourn at Shiloh, their first settlement after leaving their 40 year stint in the Sinai desert?
  • Why did Jesus gather out from the apostate Jewish church those who would take the gospel to the world?
  • Why did true reformers fight apostate Catholicism all through the dark ages. Why didn't they just dwell with the tares?
  • Why did true reformer Protestants leave Rome? Should they not dwell with the tares till the close of probationary time?
  • Why did Adventists leave Protestants? Should they not have dwelt with the tares till the close of probation?
  • Why have true reformers left the church of their fathers in every succeeding generation, DA 232?
  • God’s “line in the sand” is defined in Jeremiah, Chapters 7 and 11, and Word to the Little Flock, p. 14, wherein those who know and violate the Midnight Cry light, find it impossible to get back on the pathway to heaven. This is relative to Isaiah 8:9-12 as well.

 

 "The recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes yet they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding that this would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the Times, vol. 1, p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881.

 

 "While praying at the family altar, the Holy Ghost fell on me, and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the Advent people in the world, but could not find them--when a voice said to me, 'Look again, and look a little higher.' At this I raised my eyes and saw a straight and narrow path cast up high above the world. On this path the Advent people were traveling to the City, which was at the farther end of the path. They had a bright light set up behind them at the first end of the path, which an angel told me was the Midnight Cry. This light shone all along the path, and gave light for their feet so they might not stumble. And if they kept their eyes fixed on Jesus, who was just before them, leading them to the City, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and they said the City was a great way of, and they expected to have entered it before. Then Jesus would encourage them by raising his glorious right arm, and from his arm came a glorious light which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted Hallelujah! Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected. They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming....

By this time the 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads was written, God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious Star containing Jesus' new name." E.G. White, Word to the Little Flock, p. 14.

 

 

All blessings,

 

Ron

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Beaulieu

To: AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 9:51 AM

Subject: Re: Being Fair to Brother Marko

 

Even the following church is a church militant although it will have become qualified as a church triumphant. This statement was a conditional prophecy to Israel, but it will have a fulfillment by modern-day spiritual Israel, except for the literal entering into the land of Israel. All I want to establish is the fact that there is always a faithful remnant on the earth that constitute an invisible church triumphant--for they are registered in heaven.

 

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. 36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. 37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: 38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 20:34-38.

 

Ron

 

 

Below this is by Brother Marko

 

 

No. 4

This is a very important and crucial question, and so please allow me to answer it very carefully. Understand, that when I mention the church militant I am NOT talking about the corporate GC-SDA, for they were once the church militant, but I don't believe they are that corporately anymore. Still, there is NO earthly church triumphant whatsoever in existence yet, for the following reasons:

 

a.) Until the end of probationary time God's living church upon earth is the church militant 

"The message that has been borne by those who have proclaimed the church to be Babylon, has made the impression that God has no church upon earthHas God no living church? He has a church, but it is the church militantnot the church triumphant. We are sorry that there are defective members, that there are tares amid the wheat. Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. . . . So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn."

{Ellen G. White, Review and Herald, August 29, 1893 par. 8,9}

"Let every one who is seeking to live a Christian life, remember that the church militant is not the church triumphant. Those who are carnally minded will be found in the churchThey are to be pitied more than blamedThe church is not to be judged as sustaining these characters, though they be found within her borders. Should the church expel them, the very ones who found fault with their presence there, would blame the church for sending them adrift in the world; they would claim that they were treated unmercifully. It may be that in the church there are those who are cold, proud, haughty, and unchristian, but you need not associate with this class. There are many who are warm-hearted, who are self-denying, self-sacrificing, who would, were it required, lay down their lives to save souls. Jesus saw the bad and the good in church relationship, and said, "Let both grow together until the harvest."

{Ellen White, Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 294, par. 2, emphasis added}


"The truth is a sanctifying power; but the church militant is not the church triumphant. There are tares among the wheat. 'Wilt thou then that we gather them up?' was the question of the servant; but the master answered, 'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.' The gospel net draws not only good fish, but bad ones as well, and the Lord only knows who are his." 

{Ellen G. White, Review and Herald, September 12, 1893 par. 19, emphasis added}

 

"The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time." 

{Ellen G. White, Christ's Object Lessons, p. 71, par. 3, emphasis added}

 

b.) the church triumphant does NOT come into existence until Jesus ceases His intercession for those who are upon the earth

"Jesus lives; he is before the Father in the heavenly courts, making intercession for those who are still upon the earth in the turmoil and strife of life; for the church militant is not yet the church triumphant."

{Ellen G. White, Signs of the Times, July 24, 1893, par. 5, emphasis added}

c.) then AFTER "the work" is closed, those proved faithful will become the church triumphant

"The work is soon to close. The members of the church militant who have proved faithful will become the church triumphant." {GCDB, January 29, 1893, par. 5}

d.) and THEN we will be exempt from any difficulties arising

"When difficulties arise in any branch of the cause, as they will, for the church militant is not the church triumphant, all heaven is watching to see what will be the course of those who are entrusted with sacred responsibilities. " {PC 141.4}

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Beaulieu

To: AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:07 AM

Subject: Re: [AdventistHotIssues] Brother Marko Responds Again

 

Brother Marko,

 

I hope that you will not leave. I am sorry for any confusion as to what you have said and/or not said. But before you leave, you will answer just a few more questions for me relative to the data below:

 

"Characteristics of True Reformers.--Here are given the characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear the banner of the third angel's message, those who avow themselves God's commandment-keeping people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in the sight of all the universe, in building up the old waste places. Who is it that calls them, The repairers of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is God. Their names are registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers, as raising the foundations of many generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1151.

 

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Heb. 12:22-24.
Revelation 14

 

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." Rev. 14:1-4.

 

15 What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest. Jer. 11:15.

 

Questions:

  • If it is the angels of heaven ONLY that come to the aid of the church militant, and there is no church triumphant on earth that cooperates with those angels, what more could the angels do for the church militant than the true reformers do for it in the above statement--with the aid of the Holy Spirit and angels--that is?
  • If being registered in the church of heaven does not mean one is a member of the church triumphant there, by faith, what does registered in heaven mean to you?
  • How are those earthlings who are Philadelphians--not part of the church in heaven as the spirits of just men made perfect, enterred there by faith? EW, 255? If they are perfect on earth (Rev. 3 Message to Philadelphia), why are they not a church triumphant on earth?
  • What does "spirits of just men made perfect" mean to you?
  • Is firstborn the same as firstfruits? If not, why not?
  • The 144,000 are not defiled with women (apostate churches). Do you see how they would be defiled if they were members of an apostate church?
  • In Jeremiah 11:9-15, when Israel of that generation apostatized to the point of unpardonable sin (because God said don't pray for them), did God mean His bride (beloved) in verse 15?
  • Are the 144,000 perfected before they lead the giving of the loud cry to awaken all 10 virgins?
  • If perfected, why would they not be a church triumphant on earth?

 

Thank you for your attention to these questions,

 

Ron

----- Original Message -----

From: Marko Leone

To: adventisthotissues@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 2:52 AM

Subject: RE: [AdventistHotIssues] Brother Marko Responds Again

 



This is so cheap really from you Brother George and James King. Constantly accusing me of something I have never claimed and throwing constantly this straw man argument against me that I claimed they are angels ONLY...this is exactly what the spirit of the devil does.

 

HERE IS ONE LAST TIME THE PROOF TO ALL YOU that I did mention Enoch, Elijah Moses etc. IN THE VERY FIRST RESPONSE and FROM THE START and this time I've ENLARGED IT SO YOU CANNOT MISS IT:


No. 1  

I have never claimed that the church triumphant consists of angels ONLY. This is a gross misrepresentation of the view I shared, and was first perpetrated by this Brother James King in his response of http://omega77.tripod.com/markoresponse3.htm

.

If he and you would have read carefullyhttp://omega77.tripod.com/markoresponse1.htm you would have seen that from the start I have said, quote:

bro_marko: the church triumphant is the church IN heaven...and according to the SOP comprised of all the inhabitans of HEAVEN...angels, seraphims, cherubims, Moses, Enoch, Elijah.....BUT NOBODY here on earth....there is no proof for that...we here on earth ARE ALL CHURCH MILITANT

  

 

 

And this is it for me.

This forum is committing interpretationary fallacies left and right, Brother Ron is constantly being circular in his reasoning, definition of the church triumphant, and equating things in his mind (like reformers written in heaven = church triumphant) without ANY inspired deductive SOP linkage whatsoever to back it up. 

If you read this Brother Ron, know this, just because someone is written in heaven DOES NOT follow that they are the church triumphant? It only follows that they are written in heaven! Where is the proof for that in the SOP that they are called church triumphant? You just assume things, providing no proof whatsoever for this. And also you did never respond to EACH of my "until the end of probationary time chuch militant is the church of God" things. And AGAIN I did say PLAINLY that I don't believe this to be the GC-SDA, but you again jump on the straw man waggon and claim I did, and then base your argument of that...

All this is private interpretation, full of inductive assumptions, and this forum is for the fans of of Brother Ron's interpretation - And so there is no reason for me to be here.

May God teach you all to be humble enough to rightly divide the word, strictly word for word, no assumptions whatsoever.

I'm out and unsubscribing.

Bro. Marko