Being Fair to Brother Marko
On the Church Triumphant,
Church Militant Issue
(Part 7)
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----- Original
Message ----- From:
Ron Beaulieu To: AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 9:38 AM Subject: Being Fair to Brother Marko Brother Marko et all, Sorry that I did not deal more specifically with your SOP
statements regarding the church militant. I will attempt to do just that in
this post. Brother Marko has a valid point that even the church of
Ezekiel 20:34-38, is militant until the close of probation. That is
common sense. We are to be militant against sin and all opposing forces to
truth. God has a church militant, but it is now debatable how a new movement
that has removed God can qualify even as a church militant, for Ellen White
said that only the presence of Christ can constitute a church. The Upward
Look, 315. The 144,000 will give the final Loud Cry. That is
militancy! The 144,000 will shake all rebels out of the kingdom by their
final warning message. That is militancy! But at the same time, they must be
perfected BEFORE they are qualified to receive the outpouring of the Latter
Rain Holy Spirit for giving the final Midnight Cry. But even though the true church is militant until the close
of probation, that does not mean that we are to remain joined to an apostate
church until the close of probation. Ellen White clearly said that when a
church becomes unfaithful to the work of the Lord, He can no longer use it,
and He then chooses others. Also, even though the true church is militant in checking
error, spreading the gospel and causing the shaking out of the kingdom of God
of the rebels, Ezekiel 20:34-38, we are to strive to become one of the
144,000, the church triumphant--THE CHURCH THAT TRIUMPHS. There is no doubt that an “invisible” church triumphant
qualified itself as such BEFORE the close of probation, because it is the voice
of God AND THE VOICE OF THE BRIDE, that awakens the ten virgins, Christ’s Object Lessons, pp. 405-406.
So it is only common sense and empiraclly
discernable that the bride hath made herself ready in order to give that
final Loud Cry, Midnight Cry to the world. Even though the bride does not get
her final seal until after the final test of Jacob’s great time of trouble,
during which she lives without an intercessor, she would still rather die
than sin, says Ellen White. The “invisible” church of the 144,000, is distinguished by
their full agreement on all matters essential for salvation and their
response to forbidden apostasy. They are in complete unity. They may not see
the glory from the same facets on every point, but essentially they are in
full unity. This is Ellen White’s view of the invisible church that triumphs.
As the disciples of Christ, His bride (DA 179) put all differences away just
before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to them on the Day of Pentecost, so
the 144,000 will do the same just before they make the final Loud Cry call
awakening all ten of the sleeping virgins, COL, 405, 406. I fully agree with all Brother Marko's SOP statements
below. But I do not believe that we should regard gross apostasies as mere
difficulties and that faults and defects (such as we all have) are in the
same category as gross, strictly forbidden apostasy. Correct me if I err
brother Marko, but it seems to me that you believe we are to remain members
of the church no matter what it does--until the close of probation. Is that
true? I'm just asking, not accusing. If the wheat can dwell with the tares until the close of
probation UNCONDITIONALLY:
"The
recreant priests added licentiousness to the dark catalogue of their crimes yet
they still polluted by their presence the tabernacle of the Lord, and, laden
with sin, dared to come into the presence of a holy God. As the men of Israel
witnessed the corrupt course of the priests, they thought it safer for their
families not to come up to the appointed place of worship. Many went from
Shiloh with their peace disturbed, their indignation aroused, until they at
last determined to offer their sacrifices themselves, concluding that this
would be fully as acceptable to God, as to sanction in any manner the
abominations practiced in the Sanctuary." E.G. White, The Signs of the
Times, vol. 1,
p. 264, col. 3, December 1, 1881. "While
praying at the family altar, the Holy Ghost fell on me, and I seemed to be
rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the
Advent people in the world, but could not find them--when a voice said to me,
'Look again, and look a little higher.' At this I raised my eyes and saw a
straight and narrow path cast up high above the world. On this path the
Advent people were traveling to the City, which was at the farther end of the
path. They had a bright light set up behind them at the first end of the
path, which an angel told me was the Midnight Cry. This light shone all along
the path, and gave light for their feet so they might not stumble. And if
they kept their eyes fixed on Jesus, who was just before them, leading them
to the City, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and they said the City
was a great way of, and they expected to have entered it before. Then Jesus
would encourage them by raising his glorious right arm, and from his arm came
a glorious light which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted
Hallelujah! Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was
not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out leaving
their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the
mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and
wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path
again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected.
They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the
voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus'
coming.... By this time
the 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads was written, God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious
Star containing Jesus' new name." E.G. White, Word to the Little Flock, p. 14. All blessings, Ron ----- Original
Message ----- From:
Ron Beaulieu To: AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 9:51 AM Subject: Re: Being Fair to Brother Marko Even the following church is a church
militant although it will have become qualified as a church triumphant. This statement
was a conditional prophecy to Israel, but it will have a fulfillment by
modern-day spiritual Israel, except for the literal entering into the land of
Israel. All I want to establish is the fact that there is always a faithful
remnant on the earth that constitute an invisible church triumphant--for they
are registered in heaven. 34 And I
will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries
wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm,
and with fury poured out. 35
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I
plead with you face to face. 36
Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt,
so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. 37
And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the
bond of the covenant: 38 And I will purge
out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will
bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not
enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel
20:34-38. Ron Below this is by
Brother Marko No. 4 This is a very important and crucial
question, and so please allow me to answer it very carefully. Understand, that
when I mention the church militant I am NOT talking about the corporate
GC-SDA, for they were once the church militant, but I don't believe they are
that corporately anymore. Still, there is NO earthly church triumphant
whatsoever in existence yet, for the following reasons: a.) Until the end of probationary time God's living church
upon earth is the church militant "The message that has been borne by those who have
proclaimed the church to be Babylon, has made the impression that God has no
church upon earth. Has God no living church? He has
a church, but it is the church militant, not the church
triumphant. We are sorry that there are defective members, that there are
tares amid the wheat. Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto
a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while
men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
. . . So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst
not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said
unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou
then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up
the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let
both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of
harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather
the wheat into my barn." {Ellen G.
White, Review and Herald, August 29, 1893 par. 8,9} "Let every one
who is seeking to live a Christian life, remember that the church
militant is not the church triumphant. Those who are carnally minded
will be found in the church. They are to be pitied more
than blamed. The church is not to be judged as sustaining
these characters, though they be found within her borders. Should the
church expel them, the very ones who found fault with their presence there,
would blame the church for sending them adrift in the world; they would claim
that they were treated unmercifully. It may be that in the church
there are those who are cold, proud, haughty, and unchristian, but you need
not associate with this class. There are many who are
warm-hearted, who are self-denying, self-sacrificing, who would, were it
required, lay down their lives to save souls. Jesus saw the bad and
the good in church relationship, and said, "Let both grow together until
the harvest." {Ellen
White, Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 294, par. 2,
emphasis added}
{Ellen G.
White, Review and Herald, September 12, 1893 par. 19, emphasis
added} "The tares and
the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest
is the end of probationary time." {Ellen G.
White, Christ's Object Lessons, p. 71, par. 3, emphasis added} b.) the church triumphant does NOT come into existence
until Jesus ceases His intercession for those who are upon the earth "Jesus lives;
he is before the Father in the heavenly courts, making
intercession for those who are still upon the earth in the
turmoil and strife of life; for the church militant is
not yet the church triumphant." {Ellen G.
White, Signs of the Times, July 24, 1893, par. 5, emphasis added} c.) then AFTER "the work" is closed, those proved
faithful will become the church triumphant "The work is soon to close. The members of the
church militant who have proved faithful will become the
church triumphant." {GCDB, January 29,
1893, par. 5} d.) and THEN we will be exempt from any difficulties
arising "When difficulties arise in any branch of the
cause, as they will, for the church militant is not the church triumphant,
all heaven is watching to see what will be the course of those who are
entrusted with sacred responsibilities. " {PC 141.4} ----- Original
Message ----- From:
Ron Beaulieu To: AdventistHotIssues@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [AdventistHotIssues]
Brother Marko Responds Again Brother Marko, I hope that you will not leave. I am
sorry for any confusion as to what you have said and/or not said.
But before you leave, you will answer just
a few more questions for me relative to the data below: "Characteristics
of True Reformers.--Here
are given the characteristics of those who shall be reformers, who will bear
the banner of the third angel's message, those who avow themselves God's
commandment-keeping people, and who honor God, and are earnestly engaged, in
the sight of all the universe, in building up the old waste places. Who is it that calls
them, The repairers of the breach, The restorers of paths to dwell in? It is
God.
Their names are
registered [written--Heb. 12:22, 23] in heaven as reformers, restorers,
as raising the foundations of many generations." E. G. White, SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 4,
1151. 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and
unto the city of the living God, the
heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable
company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in
heaven,
and to God the Judge of all, and to
the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to
Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh
better things than that of Abel. Heb.
12:22-24. 1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him
an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their
foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters,
and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping
with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne,
and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song
but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the
earth. 4 These
are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were
redeemed from among men, being the
firstfruits
unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they
are without fault before the throne of God." Rev. 14:1-4. 15
What hath my
beloved to do in mine house,
seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from
thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.
Jer. 11:15. Questions:
Thank
you for your attention to these questions, Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Marko
Leone To:
adventisthotissues@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Sunday, February 28, 2010 2:52 AM Subject: RE: [AdventistHotIssues] Brother
Marko Responds Again
HERE IS ONE LAST TIME THE
PROOF TO ALL YOU that I did
mention Enoch, Elijah Moses etc. IN THE VERY FIRST RESPONSE and FROM THE
START and this time I've ENLARGED IT SO YOU CANNOT MISS IT: No. 1 I have never claimed that the church triumphant consists of angels ONLY. This is a gross misrepresentation of the view I shared, and was first perpetrated by this Brother James King in his response of https://omega77.tripod.com/markoresponse3.htm |